Anyone starting to get worried about  the current US (and world-wide) fiscial problems?  I was reading the financial news and the Dow is down about 600-650 points to below 9,000 and the US debt clock ran out of numbers (10.2 trillion or so now).

Here's hoping to a fast recovery.  Too bad I don't have $10K to put into the markets now, in a few years they will probably rebound and make up for everything lost.

I think closer to 8-10 years befor we pull out of this one, and it's gonna take some sacrifices. Hopefully those people at the top realize they cannot keep going this way or china is going to own the U.S.

"Hopefully those people at the top realize they cannot keep going this way or china is going to own the U.S."

China is also havng problems both with its stock market, and with citizens ability to make purchases.  A huge problem that has been brewing in China for a long time is that the government was subsidizing the cost of gas, but can no longer afford to do it.  The people in China can't afford to purchase gas at the unsubsidized price.

The U.S.A continues to borrow money from them over and over to fund our get it now pay later lifestyle. How long is China and others going to keep lending us money? How much deeper do we want to get in debt?

I think China recently started telling its banks to stop lending the US money.  I'm not sure if they started again or not.

Quote - How much deeper do we want to get in debt?

The people don't want anymore debt I think.  Both isles of congress are probably thinking there is a magical fairy fund that will suddenly appear to cover any amount of borrowing they do.

Quote - I think China recently started telling its banks to stop lending the US money.  I'm not sure if they started again or not.

Quote - How much deeper do we want to get in debt?

The people don't want anymore debt I think.  Both isles of congress are probably thinking there is a magical fairy fund that will suddenly appear to cover any amount of borrowing they do.

I do hope they have cut us off, It's too big a bargaining chip in our political system when we owe them so much and continue to rely on them to finance us.

I don't want any more debt, and am willing to tighten my belt and pay higher taxes or whatever it takes, but.... I WANT RESULTS!!!!... not just promises.

"Hopefully those people at the top realize they cannot keep going this way or china is going to own the U.S."

To be honest, it's not only those people at the top, it's most people in the US living in debt and spending money they don't have. A lot of Americans have the habit of keep on spending money they don't have, even if they're in debt. Average Joe and the people at the top have pretty much the same attitude, borrow money and then borrow some more money to pay off your debts. It's been going on for many years so it will probably take many years to get it all sorted out, if the US will not go completely bankrupt before that.

Hang on.... the US has been bankrupt for decades already, the whole world knew that, but finally the US has realized it too......

Well I can say I am not one of those.  I owe not one red cent to anyone, never buy anything if I don't have the money to pay for it. So here's one American who say's we can pull out if we want to and regardless the U.S.A. still generates more financially than any other country or group of contries in the world. So count the U.S. out and it'll come back and bite your a$$

Stepson, from what I've been hearing recently raising or lowering taxes generally don't help federal revenuse that much.  Going back to 1950 or so, no matter what the tax rate, the revenues have usually hovered between 16-20% of the GDP.  So if you want to increase how much the government is making, the least political way to do it is to have a large GDP growth.

Another thing is, it is unlikely they'd raise taxes on you directly.  What would happen is corperate and capital gains taxes would be increased (which is kind of silly considering how much some sectors of the economy need to increase their capital right now).  Then the big businesses who don't want to see their profits go down will pass as much of the taxes on to you the consumer.

For example you'd probably be familar with, they could hypothetically raise gas taxes on the corperate level.  Then the oil CEOs would charge more money for gas.  Then it would cost more not only to fill your gas tank but the gas tank of everything you buy and has to be shipped as well.  Then all those costs would go up.  Then you'd spend less and drive less because prices are shooting back all over.  However because you are doing that, the corperations who sell you gas and goods will make less money and in return pay less taxes.  Thus tax reciepts tend to stabilize in that 16-20% range.

I'm not sure it will work, but you could in theory cut all federal taxes on income and business down to 1%... which is what we were promised when the constitution was amended to allow for an income tax, and still get the same results if you keep them at the current rates or higher.  In theory because you suddenly had 32%-49% of your income back with all those direct and hidden taxes gone, you'd be able to save more and spend more.  Those savings would boost businesses' profits and allow them to invest more, produce more, and create more jobs and wealth.  As an added beneift, with all that extra money you could either put your kids into private schools, save for college, or be a stay at home parent because one spouse isn't needed to work to just pay off the taxes and home school the children.  Any of these would benefit how much education our society has and with all those educated kids going out into the workforce, they'll do more productive and valuable work which would contribute to the GPD and offset the reduced taxes.

Now I'm not saying we can cut taxes to 1% because there is probably a pratical limit to how far that range works, but in general the principle should work.  Now you might have to do it with a few strings attached like requiring businesses who take the lower taxes to pass the savings on to the consumer dollar for dollar, but I don't think it'd take too much for it to work.

Well whatever they need to do I wish they would get it done. I understand it comes down to what we produce in the country each year minus what we consume. (thats very simplistic I know.) Where's George Stephanopolis these days?

This country produces a hell of alot each year and there is no damn reason we should be in this mess, my take on this whole mess is it comes down to greed and some greedy pukes who don't give a sh$t about this country and the people who live and die for it. But hopefully if there is enough unrest with the voters this goverment will get its ass in gear........or maybe not.

Everybody loves to hate Rome don't they?

This didn't just happen. It's all about "erasing" the social progress of the 20th century and reverse Robin Hood, and everything is right on schedule.

No, I don't expect a lot of folks here to believe that, but go back and read what some were writing in the extremist right-wing rags a decade or two and so ago when hardly anyone outside of their ranks was paying any attention, and you'll see what I mean.

It's all going according to plan.

I cashed out most of my 401k last year when the housing bubble burst and I lost my job due to having a stroke. It was about worth $15,000 which a tidy sum went to taxes and I had to pay IRS the rest leaving me with $10000 after taxes. My workplace didn't offer insurance of any kind, So I'm one of those 45 million uninsured Americans that you always hear about.

I got turned down for SSI today. I'm at a negative 64 dollars at the bank and my electrical bill is unpaid. My money is gone and my gas tank is virtually empty. I can't afford my co-pay for insulin. I had a second stroke (a little one last month) that messed up my right side this time. I can't hand write for spit and I'm clumsy on that side.

If I turn up missing next month, it will because I didn't survive what life is throwing at me.

I hate to sound so bleak, but I have to be realistic about my survival chances. I'll fight to the bitter end. However--I never it so close before me.

The last of my money disappeared out of my 401k when the stock market tumbled down, so my dire emergency reserve is gone before I even had a chance to cash it out!

Without even resources (like blood--Diabetics aren't allow to give) to sell, I don't have a clue what to do. I still have food stamps, but after next week...with out insulin, I cannot eat food without dying.

I'm screwed like never before. At least I have a phone, and will make lots of calls tomorrow, to see if I can get some kind of help. America is broken and needs fixing,IMO.  I may not survive to see if it ever gets fixed

Joel G Lane

Quote - This didn't just happen. It's all about "erasing" the social progress of the 20th century and reverse Robin Hood, and everything is right on schedule.

No, I don't expect a lot of folks here to believe that, but go back and read what some were writing in the extremist right-wing rags a decade or two and so ago when hardly anyone outside of their ranks was paying any attention, and you'll see what I mean.

It's all going according to plan.

Any links?

I sort of agree with you.  Not sure if the conspiracy is absolutely true or we just have idiots running the country (they sure act like idiots).  If the idea is to push the world closer to armageddon so that Jeebus returns, then, yes, this is their plan in my mind.  Can't have armageddon in a futurely optimistic world with continual scientific and technical advances.  Destroy the cheerleader, destroy the world.

Either way, I'm up for an ole fashioned guillotine party any time now.

Quote - I cashed out most of my 401k last year when the housing bubble burst and I lost my job due to having a stroke. It was about worth $15,000 which a tidy sum went to taxes and I had to pay IRS the rest leaving me with $10000 after taxes. My workplace didn't offer insurance of any kind, So I'm one of those 45 million uninsured Americans that you always hear about.

I got turned down for SSI today. I'm at a negative 64 dollars at the bank and my electrical bill is unpaid. My money is gone and my gas tank is virtually empty. I can't afford my co-pay for insulin. I had a second stroke (a little one last month) that messed up my right side this time. I can't hand write for spit and I'm clumsy on that side.

If I turn up missing next month, it will because I didn't survive what life is throwing at me.

I hate to sound so bleak, but I have to be realistic about my survival chances. I'll fight to the bitter end. However--I never it so close before me.

The last of my money disappeared out of my 401k when the stock market tumbled down, so my dire emergency reserve is gone before I even had a chance to cash it out!

Without even resources (like blood--Diabetics aren't allow to give) to sell, I don't have a clue what to do. I still have food stamps, but after next week...with out insulin, I cannot eat food without dying.

I'm screwed like never before. At least I have a phone, and will make lots of calls tomorrow, to see if I can get some kind of help. America is broken and needs fixing,IMO.  I may not survive to see if it ever gets fixed

Joel G Lane

Wow man. Anyone living with you? You will need someone to take watch over you.  I am not sure if this could help but if you change your diet, you might be able to cure yourself of diabetes.
My search to find the truths in life lead me to some answers.

Take a look at this videos. Its a cure for cancer but they say it can also cure other illnesses because it helps the body to heal. I haven't tried it yet but I accepted it as common sense. Anyway, you can get these stuff in the supermarket.

If you take a look on one of the comments, one claim that someone with type 2 diabetes is already in remission. So might be wise to drop that guy a personal message and ask questions.

Quote - Any links?

It may be about some very cynical, ruthless and wealthy people fostering and using a particular type of "Christianity" as one of many tools to manipulate government and social policy, but it's not simply about trying to push the world closer to Armageddon.

That the extreme right has always been about consolidating wealth and power into a few private hands (and religious institutions, of course) should be obvious to anyone. Simply look at their history and their policies. That a perfect way to do that on a grand scale would be to dismantle as much of the power and influence of the federal government as possible while impoverishing the masses of people (so the rest of us will have to depend on the private wealth of our robber-baron slave masters and religious institutions to survive) should be just as obvious.

What may not so obvious is how it all fits together as they have become so skilled at sounding as if they are talking about one thing when they are actually talking about another.

Now it just may be that these folks never intended for things to go quite this far, but given various statements over the years, I think at least some of them did.

William Greider gave a pretty good summary of various ideological points on the right and their implications back in 2003. You may or may not agree with all of his conclusions, but it is certainly food for thought and a place to start: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030512/greider

Beyond that, you'd have to go back to transcripts of some of the actual speeches, and video and articles -- especially of the neocons, but also of some of those on the religious right -- to get a much better perspective, and those seem to be increasingly difficult to locate, at least on the web. I can't know why, but I am suspicious that it might be because certain powerful persons have begun to realize just how incriminating they are.

Here's a link -- clearly illustrating the genesis of this grand "right-wing conspiracy". :rolleyes:

Yep -- it's all goin' according to The Plan.  The folks that broke it, are now gonna fix it for us........and grab even more power in the process:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL36nwCSYUM

If you prefer your news delivered in a more humorous vein, then here's the Saturday Night Live version of events (edited by NBC to remove some of the original references -- which is a story in and of itself).  It's also quite shocking that SNL, of all parties, put this skit on the air in the first place:

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/c-span-bailout/727521/

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/10/the-mortgage-me.html

Yep -- it's those dirty, filthy -- not to mention conspiratorial -- right-wingers at it again.

Quote - I cashed out most of my 401k last year when the housing bubble burst and I lost my job due to having a stroke. It was about worth $15,000 which a tidy sum went to taxes and I had to pay IRS the rest leaving me with $10000 after taxes. My workplace didn't offer insurance of any kind, So I'm one of those 45 million uninsured Americans that you always hear about.

I got turned down for SSI today. I'm at a negative 64 dollars at the bank and my electrical bill is unpaid. My money is gone and my gas tank is virtually empty. I can't afford my co-pay for insulin. I had a second stroke (a little one last month) that messed up my right side this time. I can't hand write for spit and I'm clumsy on that side.

If I turn up missing next month, it will because I didn't survive what life is throwing at me.

I hate to sound so bleak, but I have to be realistic about my survival chances. I'll fight to the bitter end. However--I never it so close before me.

The last of my money disappeared out of my 401k when the stock market tumbled down, so my dire emergency reserve is gone before I even had a chance to cash it out!

Without even resources (like blood--Diabetics aren't allow to give) to sell, I don't have a clue what to do. I still have food stamps, but after next week...with out insulin, I cannot eat food without dying.

I'm screwed like never before. At least I have a phone, and will make lots of calls tomorrow, to see if I can get some kind of help. America is broken and needs fixing,IMO.  I may not survive to see if it ever gets fixed

Joel G Lane

Yes -- I am very sorry to hear this.  Do you have anyone to help?  Family?  Friends?  There are also private charities that will help.

It's not just America that needs fixing.  It's the entire earth.

Attached Link: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=518

There is this article that says cinnamon can be a substitute for insulin. Check out the link above and see if you would consider. Googling the rest will give you more answers.

Correction: the phrase "dismantle as much of the power and influence of the federal government as possible" should have been, "dismantle as much of the regulatory power and influence of the federal government as possible"

Better watch out -- because Big Conspiracy is watchin' you:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

It's a great link to visit, if you are obsessed with space aliens, conspiracy theories, etc., etc.......

Xeno, I am not going to get into another pointless shouting match with you. Ridicule, along with calling folks "conspiracy theorists" (and the Bush administration's official story of what happened on 9/11 is a conspiracy theory by the way) are vapid tactics straight out of the right-wing's playbook, and I think you are soon going to discover such tactics are wearing thinner and thinner.

That you disagree with me, and feel compelled to say so, ought to go without saying. Frankly, I consider it a badge of honor. The less often you agree with me the better I feel about my own judgments.

And that you can cherry pick this or that to try to make a point is not too surprising either, and in any case, I was not speaking specifically of Democrats and Republicans, nor was I implying that everyone who has participated in recent political trends was fully aware of their potential implications, so you are kinda squandering your effort here.

Yes, there is blame to go around, and many politicians, Democrats included -- (who have moved quite a bit to the right on economic matters in the last few decades in case you hadn't noticed) -- have been cowardly, duplicitous, greedy, and short-sighted, but I will be quite satisfied to challenge serious people to look at the weight of the evidence and come to their own conclusions.

Wear any badges that you like.  The facts of the situation -- as in that Youtube video -- speak for themselves.

There's a simple operative principle in such cases:  Follow The Money.  Look to see who benefited from this situation.  Look to see who the top recipients of the sub-prime mortgage money piggy-banks known as "Freddie Mac" and "Fannie Mae" were.  No need to dig for deep, dark motives held by a hidden right-wing cabal.

Sure: let people come to their own conclusions.  If they are intellectually honest: the Money points the way for them.  There's not much of a mystery here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-_HlpZ8azA

Yes, greed and accumulation of wealth are the culprits here.  That's why I'm grinding and sharpening the guillotine here.  I mean, Luld took away 483 million dollars in seven years.  My god, we could give every person in this country (300 million) a dollar of this salary given to ONE individual.  And he's small fish compared to Warren Buffet and their ilk with their multi-Billion dollar assets.  The less-than-three week CEO of another lending corporation took away 19 million just for 'being there'.   Hurrah!  Do I get 19 million for 'being there' for that short a time?  No.  Unfair so far to the extreme it is ludicrous.

Who are we kidding here?  The ultra-elite rich exist and they run the show - the entire show of the entire planet.  While billions squaller they have dozens of estates, an airport of private airplanes, security to rival a national army, and power to sink any nation (see, even the USA in the past months).  Time to wrest such accumulation and power from the hands of the very few and put it into the hands of the many (and not in a socialist or communistic way, by the way).  Forced economic equality is bad, but extreme economic inequality is just as bad - and the latter has precedence from all of history.  Any time the few aristrocratic (see France or England or Russia or Rome or any other similar system) have all of the wealth, the majority populous suffers.  Remember that while the aristrocracy in France dined on the finest of every beverage and food and service and product and lavished in the penultimate luxury, the rest of populace was forced to eat stale bread and grass and live in muck.  How close are we to this?  I don't think we're far from it if the current situation continues.

Pierre, it is time to reclaim our rights to happiness, equality, and liberty.  It may take much blood to do so, unfortunately.

I say its time to... OUTSOURCE CONGRESS!! Joel, It's a common practice to get turned down when appling or SSI. Don't give up!! There is an appeal process, resubmit the paperwork (I know it's a pain). Let them know you are NOT gonna give up and go away. That's what they want you to do.

Quote - There's a simple operative principle in such cases:  Follow The Money.

Quote - No need to dig for deep, dark motives held by a hidden right-wing cabal.

Xeno, sometimes you are right. As Greider points out, there has been nothing hidden about it. As I said, simply look at their history and their policies. Even Lee Atwater, former RNC chairman and Karl Rove mentor, apologized on his death-bed for some of what he had hoisted upon modern American politics, and confessed that Reagan and the right-wing movement was about not much more but grabbing all you could get while the getting was good:

"My illness helped me to see that what was missing in society is what was missing in me: a little heart, a lot of brotherhood. The '80s were about acquiring — acquiring wealth, power, prestige. I know. I acquired more wealth, power, and prestige than most. But you can acquire all you want and still feel empty. What power wouldn't I trade for a little more time with my family? What price wouldn't I pay for an evening with friends? It took a deadly illness to put me eye to eye with that truth, but it is a truth that the country, caught up in its ruthless ambitions and moral decay, can learn on my dime. I don't know who will lead us through the '90s, but they must be made to speak to this spiritual vacuum at the heart of American society, this tumor of the soul."

That many Democrats have gradually fallen ill over the last couple of decades due to the same disease doesn't score you very many points in my playbook.

I agree with kuroyume0161, it's time to throw them down, it will happen some day, history shows us this. I swear if I had some of those fu$ks in front of me now I would gleefully beat them to an unrecognizable bloody pulp. Death is too good for them.

The Republicans have controlled the White House 20 of the last 28 years, and the Congress, 12 of the last 14. There were 700 lobbyists in D.C. when Reagan came to office and most regulatory bills were written and sponsored by legislators. Today there are over 30,000 lobbyists in D.C. and most "regulatory" bills are written or sponsored by corporate lobbyists. As George Will and some other conservatives have pointed out, the Republicans have spent far more in 20 years than the Democrats had in the previous 50. The first and only bills Dubya vetoed since becoming president was after the Democrats came to power in 2006, and since then the Republicans, while quick to point out how Democrats can't get very much done, have broken all previous records for filibusters.

So, Xeno, tell us all again how everything that has happened is the fault of "liberal" Democrats.

Maybe this mess, can help straighten others out.....many have been spoiled for a long time and have learned nothing.....the government....well that is no longer for the people, by the people...

@ Owl--I appreciate the thoughts, but type 1 (Juvenile) Diabetes is NOT presently curable by any means. I'm a cash cow of the pharmacuetical  companies, so they have no urge to cure to cure most people.

No friends in town, or living family left. I'm on my own and have been all my life.

On the thread issue, I think that alpha's (Male or female) that want power are a greedy lot and take everything they can. Anyone who wants political power for itself, should be barred from from running, and we should conscript politicians from the general population with a draft, IMO. The drafted and tested conscripts of WW2 did a fine job with what they needed to do. We test conscripts to eliminate the untrained or mentally unstable or incapable of bearing up under the stress, and put them to work. It would be a real government OF the people and BY the people! LOLOLOLOLOL :lol:

It's just an odd thought, and I don't know if I'm completely serious serious, inspired by the Sprint commercial where the Firefighters take over congress and run the country better. LOL At this point, ANYONE might run the country better than politicians. :laugh:

Elected office should be a public service, as originally intended.  There was no plan for a permanent political class who would remain in office for decades.  It should be a penurious experience, with term limits, and one should be forbidden from profiting from the job before, during or after.  This would eliminate the showboats (you all know who they are and they infest both parties) from spending their entire lives directing the general populous who are obviously too ignorant or lazy to get about their own business.

Think about this for a minute.  60% of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all.  If I spend my money, I am careful to be sure I get good value.  If I spend your money, I'm not sure I care all that much about whether it is well spent.  Combine this with a cash circulation system sucking up funds from individuals, shipping it to Washington and handing it over to politicians who can send it back (reduced by their "expenses") to their districts to buy votes.  Sound efficient?

Subsidiarity.  This is a policy developed in the UK (under Thatcher) that basically said spend money as close to the populace that provides it.  Instead of the inverted pyramid we have where all the cash flows to the top for redistribution, the majority of funds should be collected and spent at the most local level possible.  Town, county, city, whatever.  Only a small amount should go on to the federal level for defense and national capital projects (like interstate highways).  If people who are directly accountable (and who the taxpayers see on the street every day) make the funding decisions, we'll get less pork and more local needs funded.

Actually a flat tax of 16% or so would provide the same funding, hit everyone equally hard, and ensure that everyone had a stake in how the collected taxes were spent.  As long as a majority makes no contribution, but decides how to spend, we are headed for continued trouble.  I highly recommend Atlas Shrugged to those re-distributionists on this thread.  There comes a point where those who work and contribute just give up when everything is taken from them.  The spiral from there looks like all the failed socialist economies of history (USSR, Pre-Capitalism China, Cuba, Nicaragua ... they're not hard to find if you look around).  If you tax something, you get less of it.  This is true of collective income as much as anything else.

Oh, and by the way, if you want to see where the current dilemma came from, it was Chris Dodd and Barney Frank using Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure massive loans were made to individuals who clearly would never be able to pay them back.  This monster, pushed to new heights by the Clinton administration (it has been headed by former Clinton cabinet members for 15 years) were REQUIRED BY STATUTE to back loans with no equity participation by the borrower and with no verification of income.  Very sound business practices.  As soon as the economy stumbled, defaults went through the roof and the securities issued by these "lenders" became worthless, taking the banking system to the brink.

So spare me the right or left wing conspiracies.  It was all done in daylight and the idiocy was there for all to see, complete with intermittant grandstanding by the collective genius of our Congress.

Hang on, its going to be a bumpy ride!

 But hey look on the bright side, Uncle George gave all of fine US Citizens (well most of the tax payers) a fine $600 check to help us out this year, Good Grief...

But after watching the stock market hemorrhage a few days ago, and listening to NPR radio and "The Sky Is falling" commentary all day...Hearing about the 80 year old woman that shot herself because her home was in foreclosure ... Then sit in front of the TV and watch the VP debates until I thought My head was gonna explode ... hearing more bad news from overseas stationed friends fighting in the big sand box... Gas is Up, Then Gas is down, OH NO the price of oil fell ...
Hmm, Great, more GOOD NEWS, We are implementing wage locks, after a 10% concession we "volunteered back" 6 months ago, Oh, and by the way, your health insurance is gonna double next quarter, you maintenance meds are now "Priority" listed and we will no longer cover them...

WTF is going on?! 

Who is running Corporation Earth anyway? 

I keep hearing "Just focus on the good" gimme a break!
We live in some seriously strange times...

I am saving all money for ammunition

Coffee anyone?

::: Pfftt :::

Sorry for the interruption , Carry On..

Whats bloody funny is in 2003 freddie may started doing what has happen sub prime trouble, even though bush is a brain dead numpty.
In 2003 he had a brain wave and fore saw what could happen with unrestricted lending and the republicans tried to bring in a law to put a stop to what freddie was doing.
The democrats said CRAP no such thing will happen and threw it out,
though 1 democrat has admitted that we made a mistake as we never realised this could happen.
So a democrat pressie and government are going to sort out the mess they made, just like over here Jesus Blair, and St Peter Brown are responsible for the financial meltdown in UK.
They wormed in with banks then in 97 said lend spend and chuck money about, so in the coming world recession other countries can weather it.
The UK cant as labour have destroyed our economy so for the next 2 to 5 years we will have mass unemployment and homeless peeps.
As always said the conservatives get thrown out and leave a rich economy behind, labour get in and bankrupt the  country, they get thrown out and conservatives save economy then thrown out.
Labour have left such a mess in this country that brown is printing money and spending money so as to leave the next conservative government with a major head ache.
After all Brown and Darling are so thick and stupid that Rupert Murdoch is playing them up as the 2 people who can save the stupid Americans, and the other cretin countries of the world from financial meltdown.
So the triumpherat of Jesus Blair, St Peter Brown and numpty Darling will go to America and show the yanks how to run an economy, what a laugh that is and the yanks will believe Rupert Murdoch about the 3 wise men above who will save america.
No wounder 90% yanks think they was kidnaped by flying saucers.

LOL left wing this, right wing that it cracks me up!  The number of people in this nation that are right and left wing zealots is very small. The average American could care less about right/left wing whining and want those they have elected to lead to work together for the good of the nation and for the people in it. When I hear the right/left wing spittle start I turn right off and let them go. All it proves to me when this shit starts is that these people who push this crap are only concerned about their own selfish agendas.

Sharen is right this government is no longer for the people and I know some people hate to hear this but it's our fault for letting this happen. The ideals that gave birth to this nation are gone, the very documents that grant us freedom are under attack daily by proponents from both sides of government. There is no such thing as free elections here if any other party other than the big two so much as raises its head it is black balled, taken to court to be removed from ballots, bared from debates and branded as "wacko" or you are told you've wasted your vote. And when the elections are over and the results do not please the either of the big two a federal court decides who won. How is this free elections when the will and the desires of the people are ignored? How are these free elections when there are only two candidates to choose from? Why are Americans so contented to continue to recycle the same old riff raff in selecting leadership?  Has it not become obvious that this isn't working? It takes a crisis of the magnitude we are facing for Americans to finally see that in a time of crisis those we elect are running around with their heads cut off? Damn it's time to stop whining that you can't change things and continue to settle for rubbish. The idea that wanting to clean out your government and change how it operates being "Anti-American" or committing treason  has to stop. The people in D.C. commit treason on a daily basis and this is acceptable???? If you say you love your country wouldn't you want to fight for it?

People need to get mad and stay mad and show those in DC we mean business. Our leaders know all too well that if they throw a bone to the people here and there and make things appear they are better people will shut up and forget. We can't do that anymore nor can we afford to do that anymore if we continue to go down this road the United States that gave my immigrant parents a new life, I grew up in, served in military service and have loved all my life will no longer be as it once was. I don't think enough people in this nation understand that the crisis we are facing is not over blown or will just pass away in a few days it's deadly serious this time because it's just not the states it's the world facing this. We need to force our leaders to work together and leave the partisan bullshit out of it and time for the mavericks, the changers, these people we think can walk on water, to do what they were sent to Washington to do.

If we sit back and not get involved we lose and I mean more involved and not  just that  feeling " I'm proud to be an American" one gets from voting and think they did their part. It takes calls, it take emails, it takes letters and it takes calling those we elect on the carpet for doing a shitty job. But I guess more people are going to have to loose their homes, their jobs, their health care and possibly their lives on a  personal level before Americans get into their thick skulls that there is indeed a major problem before they finally get angry enough to do something about it. As Klebnor said spare me the right wing, left wing bullshit and get to work!

I guess the folks on the far right and left feel they can run down people because they are in the middle of the road, where the traffic is heaviest.  :lol: LOLOLOLOL I know that for a fact, being roadkill. LOL

 A few relevant :

• What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.
  -Edward Langley, Artist (1928 - 1995)

I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.-Thomas Jefferson

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free! -P.J. O’Rourke

I don’t make jokes… I just watch the government and report the facts. -Will Rogers

Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-P.J. O’Rourke, Civil Libertarian*

Looking back historically, we're probably headed into another world war. World economies hit the bottom just before WW1 and WW2, so WW3 probably isnt too far behind.

Too bad all the countries we've, the US, have lent money to over the years haven't paid us back. Seems odd that so many folks hate Americans and yet are willing to take our money. I think the media is causing a lot of our woes. Freaking everyone out is making folks sell low just to get what money they can. I'm also pissed that folks who made bad decisions are getting bailed out. I had folks tell both me and my daughter that we could get awesome houses if we did declared income. We both decided to buy what we could afford, think they'll pay off my mortgage and readjust it? Hell no, we get to pay the same and folks who mad the poor decisions will probably be getting their mortgages and interest lowered. Seems like if you work for a living these days and try to do the right thing you get screwed. Don't get me wrong. I love my country and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But sometimes the people in charge just lose their minds and screw it up for the working class. Sorry...rant over.

OUT, every last one of them. I don't care what wing their in, both sides fucked the world for personal gain. Off with their heads!!!!! Where do you find people not in the political group to vote for? Even our supreme court is politically motivated these days, run by whatever group can get the most members appointed, instead of actually protecting the constitution. Can we throw them all out? Who will step up for the job?  No more republicans or democrats please, they all went to the same school, go to the same church, help eachother to fuck the rest of us. The entire thing needs to be cleaned out, start with fresh new people. Anyone with ties to the former government banned from office. They should have to live like the poorest of us.

Joel,

You are a stranger to me, my only memory of you are simple replies to my posts. But I am sending you a PM because my reply is too harsh for everyone to see.

Quote - @ Owl--I appreciate the thoughts, but type 1 (Juvenile) Diabetes is NOT presently curable by any means. I'm a cash cow of the pharmacuetical  companies, so they have no urge to cure to cure most people.

No friends in town, or living family left. I'm on my own and have been all my life.

Whew! I'm marking this thread with a language advisory.

Quote - Looking back historically, we're probably headed into another world war. World economies hit the bottom just before WW1 and WW2, so WW3 probably isnt too far behind.

Shhhhh...

Don't think about that - although I agree that this is a very possible outcome.  Whenever internal systems fail, countries go on a hunt for external resources - i.e.: war.  I won't speculate further.

I think the mods from here should run the country.  How about JenX for president?

Well I'm from Northern Europe and what has been happening in Iceland has left me completely speechless and worried. How can an entire country be facing a possible bankcrupsy? I mean it's absurd. I really feel sympathy for the people of Iceland who are now losing jobs and pensions, just because the system was out of control .Just because a select few were greedy everyone has to suffer.  Now I'm worried that this insanity will soon reach my country too and banks will start to collapse. I can't believe that politicians in my country still talk of privatacing healthcare. It's like trusting a system that is based on greed to take care of the sick people. Insanity I say..

Quote - Elected office should be a public service, as originally intended.  There was no plan for a permanent political class who would remain in office for decades.  It should be a penurious experience, with term limits, and one should be forbidden from profiting from the job before, during or after.  This would eliminate the showboats (you all know who they are and they infest both parties) from spending their entire lives directing the general populous who are obviously too ignorant or lazy to get about their own business.

There is already a term limit in the Constitution that limits the president to two 4 years terms.
Unless there is a big clamor to get something similar in the Contstitution for congressmen
and senators it won't happen.  And in a way this is taking away people's rights.  If somebody
likes their congressman or senator, what right does someone else have to forbid that
person from voting for someone they feel is serving their interests.

Quote -
Think about this for a minute.  60% of Americans pay no federal income taxes at all.

Actually the number is 40%.  And  I would assume a large percent of those are children too
young to work and the elderly who are no longer earning an income and live on a retirement
pension. 

Total income tax share (percentage)   Descending cumulative percentiles Total Top Top Top Top Top   1 percent 5 percent 10 percent 25 percent 50 percent (37) (38) (39) (40) (41) (42) 100.00 39.43 59.82 70.45 86.08 96.89
Quite right, I mistook the 60% who pay all for 60% paying none.  Still, 40% paying nothing makes the point just as well.  Also, the above table is from the IRS (check their website) and reflects 2006 tax collection.  Interesting, no?

The top 25% of taxpayers pay 86% of all federal income taxes.  The top 10% pays 70% !!!!!

One out of ten is paying for 7 out of ten.  Well, that seems fair ... although it might not if you are that one guy.  Of course, anyone who makes that much money is just lucky.  It couldn't be hard, diligent work.  So if he got his fat paycheck by luck, he should share with everyone else.  Eat the rich!

The two term limit for presidents is a relatively modern introduction, not ratified until 1951 (the 22nd amendment).  It was a response to the three terms of Franklin D. Roosevelt.  Two for that windbag would have been quite enough.  He actually set the groundwork for the current crisis, but that is a tale for another day.  And that limit works well - the principle should be extended.

There is no inalienable right to keep electing an overage, overweight, senile gassbag senator - Ted Kennedy notwithstanding.  You put your finger on the problem.  Everyone hates the congress as a collective group, but loves "their" congressman.  Since they are all such sterling individuals, there must be something in the water in the D of C that causes them to act like asses.

Klebnor

From Peelo's tagline: *Now, tragedy... That's funny!

*I think we will have a lot of fun the coming time...

Now it's iceland's banks  that go bankrupt, but suppose the Swiss banks wll go bankrupt or the cayman islands (more likely), then we will have fun. Nothing is sure these days.

cynically yours,

Bopper.

Quote - Since they are all such sterling individuals, there must be something in the water in the D of C that causes them to act like asses.

Yes, lobbyists. ;)

I don't agree about 'lucky'.  Bill Gates, recently the richest American (now Warren Buffett), made all of his money from founding and running Microsoft - not by winning a lottery or garnering an inheritance.

In the best of societies, the distribution of wealth would be more like this:

10% - low income or poor/homeless/no money (ideally none of the latter)
60% - middle income
30% - upper income
0% - ultra-rich elite (with incomes and assets that are a large portion of a nations GDP).

In reality, the distribution is more like this (from Survey of Consumer Finance):

50% - low income or poor/homeless/no money
40% - middle income
9% - upper income
1% - ultra-rich elite (with incomes and assets that are a large portion of a nations GDP).
And the disparity is increasing.  90% of the US population has about 30% of the wealth.  10% of the population has the other 70%!  (sharpens guillotine some more) ;)

Quote - Actually a flat tax of 16% or so would provide the same funding, hit everyone equally hard, and ensure that everyone had a stake in how the collected taxes were spent.  As long as a majority makes no contribution, but decides how to spend, we are headed for continued trouble.  I highly recommend Atlas Shrugged to those re-distributionists on this thread.

Yeah, there is a simple solution to every problem, simple and wrong. Obviously, a flat tax would not hit everyone equally hard, but what's the point in explaining? The only people who cannot see that simply don't want to.

As for Atlas Shrugged, sure, you have to give people incentive to be productive, but guess who the producers are?

Think of it this way, if the pharoahs of ancient Egypt had suggested their people build pyramids, but to only build the top of it and assume the base would take care of itself, there never would've been much in the way of pyramids.

The producers are the workers, the inventors, etc., not just the big money at the top. Investors play their very important role and nothing against that, but there has never been a successful, sustainable economy built from the top down. Never. I repeat, never.

And that is what the right has been claiming it has been doing for a very long time now. And in that time, the US has gone from the biggest creditor nation in the world to the biggest debtor nation in the world, with the greatest disparity in income between rich and poor in the world, with more folks incarcerated per capita than any other nation in the world, with infant mortality and preventable death among the highest in the industrialized world, with a health care system that increasingly provides poorer health care than the rest of the industrialized world, with average expected lifespan falling in respect to Europe and Asia, etc., etc., ad nauseum. And now this economic thing.

Phew! The success of the right has quite a stench to it, and as far as sparing anyone right- and left-wing conspiracies, the truth of the matter is that the real left (as opposed to modern Democrats who are almost universally afraid to be called "liberal") has rarely if ever truly run the US, and certainly not lately.

Quote - From Peelo's tagline: *Now, tragedy... That's funny!
*I think we will have a lot of fun the coming time...

Now it's iceland's banks  that go bankrupt, but suppose the Swiss banks wll go bankrupt or the cayman islands (more likely), then we will have fun. Nothing is sure these days.

cynically yours,

Bopper.

It was funny when the cartoon character "Bender" said it (the context was  different).  But I'm not laughing now and hopefully my dumb tagline didn't insult anyone. I deleted it. If it did insult I am truly sorry. It was never my intention.
It is just insane to witness whats going on in the world. I guess it really is true what they say; that if  America sneezes the rest of the world catches a cold. I live in a very small country and somehow it is now that I truly realize just how small and powerless my country is in a global scale. It's all up to USA and EU to decide what will happen next. Democracy or not. I have no say in what goes on at the global markets. I can vote but I have no say in how the banks operate.  And it seems the Banks and the big corporations have ruled the world more than the politicians. Or maybe the politicians were willing partners to crooked bankers. I never wanted to really believe that but that's how I feel right now.
In some ways it feels like the death of an ideology. Unregulated capitalism maybe at an end.

I'm sorry Peelo, I didn't mean to upset you, I wasn't very serious. A lot of people in Holland lost their savings on an iceland bank called Icesave, and although the dutch government has promised to pay their lost ( till €100,000.00) there is nothing funny about it. 
So I have to apologise, because it was in fact a funny tagline.

Bopper.