:b_funny: @ RJ

Grafikeer writes
*I think we are getting too carried away with this...if we say that to post an image in the Bryce gallery that you cannot use imported figures or objects as a central element in your image,regardless of whether or not you could have created them yourself,then you are stifling the artist's creativity...and if this applies to Bryce,then it had better apply to Vue,Carrara and all other apps that do not allow the creation of figures etc. within them.Are we prepared to go this far?I see where dhama is coming from,and where ICM's points are valid,but Bryce allows the importing of objects,it's part of the application.It allows the use of photos on 2D planes to be inserted in to cut down render time and populate scenes with detail,in fact there are tutorials on this very site that show this.

I agree with grafikeer.

I use Bryce for all my images. I import models from D|S too, because you just cannot make alot of those in Bryce - let's face it Bryce is not a proper modelling app like C4D for example, so as I love using Bryce (I am a big Bryce fan, even with it's problems) and want free reign on my creativity, using whatever models I need to to convey my scence, then I have to use models. Until Bryce becomes a full modelling application I have no choice.

So I use a mix of model and stuff from Bryce. I use alot of Bryce textures, even on those imported models. I use Bryce terrains, sky lab etc, primitives etc. 

Does that mean therefore, because I have imported models that my work could not be said to be based on Bryce?????

I use postwork to whateve level I need to get the right look. I have never found Bryce images satisfactory from my point of view without it. But I would be very disappointed that because of that I could no longer post in the Bryce gallery. Like I said, I am a fan of Bryce, and I have seen some amazing work created using Bryce, with postwork, which had encouraged me. If they had been in the Mixed Medium gallery I might not have found them.

I feel a bit irked at the thought. It sounds a bit like some of you are saying an image has to have a certain 'look' to be called Bryce.

I would be interested to know if my images would be classed as Mixed Medium
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=347007

Quote -
I would be interested to know if my images would be classed as Mixed Medium
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=347007

 
 In my opinion, your gallery has some exceptional art, but I would not call it Bryce simply beacuse most of the elements are imported. Of course, this doesn't mean it's a bad thing; you simply have a gallery of scenes that could not be acheived in Bryce alone. This is just my thought.

Thanks for your feedback dharma.

But...as someone else pointed out, Bryce is set up to import element because you cannot model them in Bryce. That is one of the features of Bryce.  I don't see that that should negate being able to call the image a Bryce image if one has used textures, landscape, lighting etc in addition to the elements, to create a scene, and then rendered it in Bryce...

Ok, here's an interesting idea...I wonder how many images would be left in the Bryce gallery if all those that had  postwork, or imported elements were removed (i.e it's not 'pure' Bryce)? Someone care to take a look and take a guess???

:biggrin:

I guess you could have rendered most of your scenes in DazStudio, or even 3DSmax LOL!.
Your scenes contain more imported elements than what is native to Bryce from what I could see,, but again that is not the opinion of this forum or Renderosity, just my thoughts.

Yeah, but I don't wanna use DazStudio...I love my Bryce!....(stamps foot and sulks):biggrin:

Well I guess that is the difference then. :laugh:

IO4, Your gallery is fine, the only Bryce image that might draw some attention is
"~A Madness~", because it appears to be Comped together in a 2d editor, and it does look more like a 2d comp than a Bryce image. In that case I would request the Bryce file for proof.

If you read through this Thread, I'm sure you can figure out for yourself what will be acceptable. Your gallery plays very much as mine does. Nice work BTW.

ICM

Thanks very much  for taking a look ICM:)

Will you be posting example images when the new changes are formally introduced?  I think it would be really helpful.

IO4, You're welcome.

There will be links in the headers of both the gallery and the forum to a page with explanatation and graphical reference.

well, if Bryce didn't require a knowledge of Boolean algebra to model things in primitives (hey, I only have 5.5...;) I could get away with posting in Bryce. But even strapped down as I am at the moment, I still model in Wings.

and the day Poser can create landscapes, move lights around like Bryce, etc., then I might be a Poser hobbyist.

But in the end, I like making pictures, and Bryce is an important tool. It's just not the only one.

I can post in mixed media; good to know, though.

Ah-HA!  Finally! Pakled confesses! 

Oh. My. God.  Even here, the trainspotters have finally taken over the asylum.  Who is to judge when an image has crossed this arbitrary line?  Will there be a right of appeal?

i think we need to keep the Bryce images to the mandatory sphere and water image. Pure Bryce.

I realize i don't post around here much, so sorry for the intrusion into the space..BUT..I have been a Bryce user since V2, which was the 1st PC version, so this gives me a key to the domain :)

Things just become too complicated in what should be fun, or work, if you're a pro...guess work could still be fun....
Anyway ... this is an argument in all app galleries. Poser has the same issues with postwork.
I'm thinking if its rendered in Bryce, its Bryce. There should, however, be categories within the Bryce gallery..such as PURE BRYCE..where everything is modeled, textured, lit, in Bryce...no postwork.
Then you can have Bryce--Post work allowed, and,
Bryce --- Yes I used Bryce but it could have been done in anything, category.
That would be fair...it would show exactly what can be done in Bryce...as a pure renderer and modeler, and as most people use it, mixed media.

*Oh. My. God.  Even here, the trainspotters have finally taken over the asylum.  Who is to judge when an image has crossed this arbitrary line?  Will there be a right of appeal?

*Judge? Not quite, The process will be a request of questionable material & apps used to the posted image. If there is sufficient information that the image has gone closer to Mixed Medium Genre than Bryce Genre, then there is no need for appeal.  It's the artists choice of of how far they wish to Process the Image.

Question Paul, Do you paste cut images from photographs, IE; People, Foliage, Structures, or Use effects, 2D brushes or Tubes that equal more than 50% of your final Bryce Image?

Quote - Question Paul, Do you paste cut images from photographs, IE; People, Foliage, Structures, or Use effects, 2D brushes or Tubes that equal more than 50% of your final Bryce Image?

No to the paste and cut, yes to 2D/effects; don't know what a Tube is!

As to the 50% thing.....I don't know, maybe 20%?

Theres your answer then. I'm a Bryce user and have been since day 1, and after contemplating these changes I fully agree with them. Just because something is rendered in Bryce...Does NOT make it Bryce.... just so much as a classic E-type Jag doesn't become a 'bob's respray service' .... if it should ever need it; it's still a Jag and an E-type at that.

For giggles I went back through the last ten days of the Bryce gallery with this new criteria in mind (as opposed to just exploring the images as usual). I saw three possible offences I thought might transgress the forthcoming utopia. Since this period translated almost precisely to ten pages, you're talking essentially 3 images out of 240 posted over ten days. Is that really a problem worthy of this sort of officious intervention? I mean, seriously, submitting scene files for proof?!

How many more suspicious images do you see in that period, ICM, with your keen eye trained to this issue? Twice as many; three times as many? Call it nine images - what the hell: twelve! How big a deal is that?

The problem, such as it is, seems to be that some Renderosity members don't organise their galleries in the same way as ICM. I say that because he keeps offering his as an example of proper procedure. Well, so what? What does it matter? Who, or what, is harmed if someone puts a portrait photo in front of a Bryce backdrop and posts the result in the Bryce gallery (along with, say, "Fantasy")? Does it matter if the photo was dropped on in post or inserted via a 2D pict object within Bryce? The result is the same - what's the problem? And who is to say (fairly), other than the artist, whether the photo or the backdrop is the focus of the piece?

So some members, a tiny ratio it seems, post images in one gallery category that some other members, an even tinier minority it seems, think ought to be in another category. For this irrelevant non-problem that Renderosity has somehow managed to survive for nearly a decade, new rules are to be introduced and members images arbitrarily moved, with backroom staff discussions and file inspections part of the delightful process.

Just whose kids does this help?

PJF, contact the Renderosity Admin, and request a position of Moderator.

ICM

Hi Everyone, I've been reading some of the posts here concerning importing. And I must say that I'm so guilty of crossing that line, But sometimes the image I have in mind might require a person in it, and let's face it's nearly impossible to model a person in Bryce I don't think I've ever
seen one. From what I understand and I've only been using Bryce for eight months is that Bryce
was created as a landscape generator. But I believe that it can do alot more, I also feel that the true art of Bryce is modeling your own stuff not just downloading an object and inserting it into your image to save time, I understand that sometimes you just have to do that but I prefer to model my own things if at all possible. As far as postwork guilty again, But there's certain effects that are only obtainable through other apps, Bryce can't do everything and to me the end result is what really matters because that's what everyone ends up seeing anyway, You can all sit there and say oh he/she imported that from Daz or Poser or they used a lot of postwork on that image, but the bottom line is that it's all art and it's beautiful and creative and when I look at someone's work the last thing I'll notice is what programs they used to create it I just appreciate the art itself, Anyway that's my two cents I hope I didn't offend anyone I think we're all here for the same reason and that's a love for art. Have a good one yall! BRYCE RULES!!!

how about this novel idea?
Renderosity gets rid of the application headings and just breaks images down into their categories such as 3D, 2D, and photography...then sub categories such as fantasy, sci fi, etc etc...

then its only the end result "art" that is an issue, not the application it was created in or post worked in. Fair for everybody. The cream would rise to the top, the images that everyone can id as coming from Poser, Bryce, or heavily imported,  the plug and play style, would be clearly evident.

I really don't care how a piece was created, especially what application. It is cool, however, to know that a great work was done in Bryce, Poser, or whatever...it demonstrates a skill an artist has, the ability to manipulate a program, so it would be up to the artist to describe what he used or did in the description, very much like they do in 3D World mag in the exhibition pages.

Quite true, the end result is art. Maybe we could have one gallery that is called the 'art' gallery LOL!

* But sometimes the image I have in mind might require a person in it, and let's face it's nearly impossible to model a person in Bryce I don't think I've ever
seen one.

*Maybe not a person per-say.......
How about a dog, or other creatures:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/full.php?image_id=1652569

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=365639&member

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=362270&member

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=335439&member

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=326431&member

What is really great about Bryce is it's versatility:
It CAN import
it CAN model
it HAS the ability to export layers due to it's mask feature which allows for POSTWORK.
It HAS the ability to generate a DOF mask for precision DOF blurring in a 2D editor

These and many more options allows the artist a lot of lattitude for creating in Bryce, this I why the seperation of pasting 2D images, and pasting "tube" items should be distinguished becuse of it's actual mechanical process and placed in Mixed Medium.
If you want to get really technical and sneak in your Photo-people, create the masked person in the 2D editor, import it into Bryce on a 2D plane with a transparency mask and Render-Away!!
Same process with Tubes.

More to come......

Quote - * *
If you want to get really technical and sneak in your Photo-people, create the masked person in the 2D editor, import it into Bryce on a 2D plane with a transparency mask and Render-Away!!
Same process with Tubes.

More to come......

To play the Devil's Advocate for a minute doesn't Bryce already do this with one or two of the installed trees, but this doesn't strike to the heart of what you're on about I know, just had to point it out and that it is an accepted  Bryce protocol.. ...

Yes and that's my POINT................Do it in Bryce!!! WEEEEEEEEEEEE

OK, Time to play:

I take My Big Clay Bryce Render, Smack it a half dozen times with my Photoshop baseball bat, Stomp on it a few times with my PaintShopPro Boots...........

33% Bryce
33% Photoshop
33% PSP
..................................................It's NO LONGER Bryce!! It's a mechanical abboration of what you started with...........Take a piccy of Grandma near the Xmas tree, Now paste a render of an Alien next to her and Post this to the Photography Gallery and see what happens.

I'll tell ya, It's nooooott Going in the gallery you think it's gonna.

(Too much Cooffee maybe?) LOL

Postwork is a good thing, smoothing out the edges, blurring up the sharp stuff from front to back , Correcting some color issues, givin it a frame, a name, Some Pizzazz.

LOL! ICM..... :lol:

I  think I'm going to just drop in my $0.02 in to this farce.

If it's rendered in Bryce it is Bryce.

Quote - I  think I'm going to just drop in my $0.02 in to this farce.

If it's rendered in Bryce it is Bryce.

Or rather it is a Bryce Render You take a DAZ scene for instance, and load it into Bryce, get the textures working, add a sky and atmosphere and a rudimentary terrain for the DAZ scene to sit on...to me this is a DAZ Scene, Rendered in Bryce not a Bryce Scene...my ever decreasing 2 cents Canadian.. ...

Not a Bryce scene maybe Bobby, but it would still be a Bryce Render..... and I ain't paying for that reply, even if it is only 2 cents.

Here we are, just found an entry in Merriam-Websters dictionary...

Main Entry: 1Bryce
Pronunciation: Poor mans Vue
Function: Frustrating verb
Inflected Form(s): bryce'd; Bryc·ing
Etymology: Middle English Brycen, from Anglo-French Bryce D'sprit, from Latin Bryster
Date: 20th century

1 : Ancient 3D Artist's tool
2 : Obsolete landscaping tool

Oh Dhama! You're going straight to hell for that one! 

ICM - I rarely participate in the forum, but I have been posting in the Bryce gallery for several years & though I NEVER do any postwork (not that I have anything against postwork - it's just a personal choice), I respectfully submit that this is a bad idea & as futile as debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I'm sure you have noble motives for wanting to do this, but I find it disturbing when anyone tries to impose rigid boundaries on artwork. I think the thing that bothers me the most is the statement you made that everyone knows what a Bryce scene looks like. I completely disagree with that. Everyone may know what a TYPICAL Bryce scene looks like, but one of the things that I have always loved about Bryce (& I have been a user since the first PC version, Bryce 2) is the openness & limitless possibilities it offers. I believe a lot of my work (particularly the mandalas I create in Bryce) are examples of pure Bryce work that doesn't look like "typical Bryce". I would also point to the work of Wilby as a particularly fine example of that. We should be celebrating the creativity of artists who stretch the boundaries of what Bryce can do, including the use of whatever other software - for either modeling or postwork - they might want to introduce, not arbitrarily labeling things as "non-Bryce" when it reaches a certain threshold. Does it have to be 51% Bryce? Would 49% or 50% then not qualify? I think you would very likely wind up  wasting valuable time & energy debating what is & isn't Bryce & upsetting members whose work was re-categorized - time that would be better spent creating & viewing art here on Renderosity...     

eyeland,
I do believe a point that both ICM and myself are trying to make, as well as the post issue, well me in any case for sure, is that since DAZ bought Bryce and added the easy bridge to importing their scenes holus bolus, Bryce at certain points starts to look more like in the main, a render engine for the convenience of DAZ users...just what I've noticed.
No flies on DAZ as it is a cute lil app for folks  who need that but, and I admit I haven't even got into it so I could be way off base, it is not essentially a modeler, but more of a[please forgive my ignorace here]stage set[ not the correct term but conveys the image] to display DAZ figures...at which point it really ceases being more than 10% Bryce....as I said, just my 2 cents whatever that's worth today.. ...

Attached Link: Estevez's newest

Of course it doesn't look like a standard Bryce Render........He's been doing these for as long as I've known him & it's rare to find someone these days that are willing to spend a decent amount of time on a piece of artwork like he does to acheive this amount of quality. Go check out Beton, Hobbit, or Rochr since your into naming names, These along with Estevez, MarioG, and a handful of other artists create works that far surpass most anyone here including me.

So again, No it doesn't look like a typical BR, and.............I never said Postwork or Imports were wrong.

How long since you've been a member here at RR Dan? July 2008

(edit)

Actually I think it's more like Feb 2002, So you really do know what I'm talking about.

Thanks Pal!!

I've seen these before and from the other artisits that ICM mentions. This particular scene, which is a very beautiful image, but in my mind the end product is not Bryce... I believe the rocks and water were probably rendered in Bryce, but the rest is painted as far as I can see. I don't have artistic abilities like this, but I wish I did. To me, this is a mixture of tools, not just Bryce.

Bryce is used quite a lot by artists to achieve the basics of a scene and then the rest is expertly painted in.

This scene should never be judged alongside a 'Bryce' scene, it would give the impression that Bryce could produce such a scene. Bryce is very versitile, but it needs a lot of help in postwork to reach the level of expertise in the scene in question. If Bryce could create scenes like this without a lot of extra postwork, there would be a lot more people creating art  to this level. Estevez is a very competent artist, and i'm sure they could create such beauty on canvas.

The following is what I would class a Bryce scene from the same artist.....
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1729239&member

Okay, thanks for the explanation and clarification Rod. I think I have a good handle now on what is allowed under the new rules for inclusion in the Bryce gallery. I didn't mean to single out Estevez in any negative fashion, or name names, and yes I admire the skill and artistry of those artists you mentioned. They are some of my favorites too. I wasn't trying to be a rabble-rouser.

I also meant no subterfuge when I adopted a new name. 
I had to abandon my old name when the great email changeover fiasco went down. My previous notification email addy was unfortunately a Hotmail address. When I tried to change to my new gmail address, the Renderosity entry form would not take my old address(required for the changeover) because it was too long to fit in the box.  I got several ebots informing me of comments on my artwork, and I could not visit my own gallery. I created a new name just so I could still visit Renderosity. The draw back to this is that I cannot access, or respond to site mail I received under my old name. Keep up the good work Rod. I have no quarrel with you, or any of the other Mods, or coordinators.

But surely it is simple. If it is rendered in Bryce its a Bryce scene - if its rendered in DAZ its a DAZ scene (the finished look of these two is totally different) You have to remember that Bryce and DAZ Studio are owned by the same people and they are made to work together so I don't think you can penalise someone because they pose in DAZ Studio and then import it into Bryce.

Personally I think you are wrong to decide that anyone will make a decision on what is and what isn't a Bryce scene.

Sent you an IM Bea

I read it and responded :) 

Quote - But surely it is simple. If it is rendered in Bryce its a Bryce scene - if its rendered in DAZ its a DAZ scene .

If it's rendered in Bryce, it is a Bryce render. But, this doesn't make it a Bryce scene. Same thing goes for DazStudio.

I am sorry then what does make it a Bryce scene? If you are using the Bryce lighting and atmosphere and the Bryce engine to render then it is a Bryce scene. It may not be what you think of as a Bryce render but it is probably what the artist thinks of as a Bryce scene and who is to say that he or she is incorrect.

Well, Bryce is so much more than just lighting/atmosphere and the rendering engine..... it also has terrains/trees/primitives and materials etc.

I think the definition of a Bryce scene cannot be determined so easily, because I believe it would have something to do with the content of the scene as well. The determination is further difficult because everyone seems to have their own ideas what constitutes a Bryce scene.... or not for that matter.

Whatever happens, I agree with what ICM has determined.

I am sorry to say it is a sad day when you take the tools we artist (Hobby artist) and start governing how we can create our art and where we can post it. I have been using Bryce since 1998 and then used poser when it came available to me. I don't render in Poser as I feel Bryce is the best render out there that I have. Bryce was made as a landscape program to be used with others like poser to allow a artist the tools to create. I understand the post work as some do take it to the extreme but to say that we can not import say a person into the scene we build in Bryce and post it to the Bryce gallery floors me. I have been a member here since 1999 and this site has never been as strict or professional as it is now. This use to be a family & friends site but like all businesses it has grown to something else. I feel sadden that it has started to be not so family & friends site as more of a business that governs how we can do our art. Just my 2 cents worth.

Sandy, no one is saying you can't import a character into a scene....

ICM quote "When imports come into Bryce and those import play a large part in the scene, then it's no longer Bryce IMO."

Wrong just because you center something around something not Bryce doesn't mean it is not Bryce. We all import obj that are our main part of the scene then build our scene around them to say it is not Bryce is not true.

Bobby quote "Or rather it is a Bryce Render You take a DAZ scene for instance, and load it into Bryce, get the textures working, add a sky and atmosphere and a rudimentary terrain for the DAZ scene to sit on...to me this is a DAZ Scene, Rendered in Bryce not a Bryce Scene...my ever decreasing 2 cents Canadian.. ... "

Again wrong that is why Daz put these two together so we can utilize the posing that Bryce doesn't have.

dhama quote "If it's rendered in Bryce, it is a Bryce render. But, this doesn't make it a Bryce scene. Same thing goes for DazStudio. "

Here is a questionable thing. If you don't add anything else to the scene and just render it in Bryce I can agree but if you add anything from Bryce like trees,mountains,etc then I feel it is a Bryce scene.

Actually dhama, this Estevez scene to me seems quite 'Bryce' except for the sky which has photographic qualities. But folks have been using photo-skies in all 3D apps as far back as I can remember and that seems to have become accepted practice. So I guess I'm sayin'...this to me, is great Bryce work... I love the trees' scale making them feel alien to each other and the terrain which is also extremely Brycean, as well as the Bryce water....I could be wrong..it happens..but no bells go off for me on this fine pic.. ...

I am sorry, i'm no longer part of this argument, i'm bored with saying the same thing over and over. Suffice to say, I still agree with what ICM is saying.