First of all; these remarks are not meant to attack anyone, or to say that the ones who enter each month's challenge don't do a great job. But I see more and more 'Poser' images appear in what should be a Bryce-challenge. More often the image is created in another programme (Poser is the one most used apparently) and only rendered in Bryce. For me, personally, this goes against the spirit of this particular challenge. It would be fine if Poser and other programmes would be used as extra's, but its clear this is not always the case. A Bryce challenge should focus on what one can do with and within Bryce; thats the challenge as far as I am concerned. This said; see you with the next challenge

That is fine on those that exclude Poser or outside use but most don't.If you did a put Bryce challenge for things that co bump in the night youwould mostly have light and shadow with nothing there. Some just don't work without somehng else and to be honest I have little interest in them for me personally. Trying to recreate a photorealistic thing or this or that using onl boleans is cool and all but doesn't do anything for me. H2's old work with the fishing pole stuff and perfume for example. Although goregeous and technically proficient they lacked a human element and is simply a still life. Nice, but not what I like to do.

Its not that you couldn't use them; its a matter of focus. Bryce is not just a rendering machine

True .. it also isn't stand offish enough to say it can't use it. I thinkone of the strong points IS that it can import just about every format of file. True not every challenge needs to import but not every challenge needs to exclude either. It has great strengths but I think in choosing to never import you sort of hamstring yourself.

Well, maybe we should start picking challenges that would focus more on things like landscapes and natural outdoor things or more architectural things, where the focus would be more on the things that Bryce can do, as opposed to importing some human figure... for instance, the cave, underground challenge was good because the focus was on Bryce and you had to include stuff you modeled yourself.. I mean, rath has a point, after a while it does start looking like a poser gallery in here...

I'm with Rath on this one. Don't have Poser yet so I obviously can't use that enhancement to the images. The Poser models really make Bryce images stand out and as such, those of us without Poser are somewhat disadvantaged. That said, I do have a lot of fun working Bryce as best I can and learning more each time the contest comes around. For me, its not about winning, its about learning. If I've learned one thing here, its that Poser is a great program to have (and its on my wish list). Those who have overcome the oddities of importing Poser images and making them work in the scene deserve some recognition. Perhaps a solution is to vote on a scale. Best overall image, best Bryce technique, best use of non Bryce enhancements. That would result in three winners each month and recognize the ones that work hard with Bryce and don't use the enhancing programs. Or, just have an occasional Bryce ONLY contest. This would make a bit more work for Ken, but, what do y'all think?

I am in the challenge this month for the first time and my pic is basically just a character posed/textured and then exported from Poser into Bryce (The Skeleton pic at the top of the vote thread). It never occurred to me that what I was doing was using Bryce for JUST the rendering. Since I export like that all the time, I never thought of it. Rath has a very good point that didn't strike me when I entered, it is a BRYCE challenge. And, it can be a disadvantage to those that have just Bryce and not Poser. (or Photoshop) Yet, I have read the ideas for the challenges for some time now and some themes I would not want to attempt without some sort of human or figure element. But, come the next challenge, I will enter, and will use nothing but Bryce, no model/texture imports of ANY kind, and no post work. (now there's a challenge). I look forward to it. Only seems fair. If I had ONLY Bryce, that's how I would want this to go down. Thanks to Rath, and the others for this POV. Agent Smith

Very interesting POVs here! IMHO if it's not regulated by the rule of the challenges, we should be free to choose. On the other hand I feel quite a lot more challenged by a tough restriction ... so why not give it a try and have the next challenge a pure-bred-Bryce-only one ? I'm really curious to se some un-post-prod-edited works ! Deibuzo

Thanks all for commenting. My comments had nothing to do with advantages, or disadvantages. If I had Poser (i don't; we can't get it over here in Holland) I would use it too. BUT the human element should be nothing more then that; just an element. Bryce is maybe considered only good for landscapes, textures, and rendering, but, to name an example, the underground challenge also showed you CAN model with Bryce. Its only our own laziness ;-) that keeps us from using more of Bryce's capabilities.

Well it looks like I am in the minority here. I don't have much time to do it anyway so I guess I will just be out. Just don't like doing landscapes and such. Bryce can do some great things but limiting yourself like that just seems to be silly. We should embrace the art and not the process.

To the extent that it matters, I'll jump in with Ghostofmacbeth. I like the creative freedom allowed by Bryce's import capabilities, and don't see the point of insisting on not using those features. However, I'm quite fair-minded, and suggest that the system we have is quite adequate, so long as we avail ourselves of the power given to a challenge winner. Rath, when you win a challenge, your ensuing challenge can be as restrictive as you want. If I ever win one, it will be as restrictive --or open-ended-- as I want. I favor a structure that allows for harder challenges through possible restrictions without forcing those restrictions on every challenge. The only "rule" we need to enforce is that the challenge winner be clear in what he wants to see in the next month's challenge.

So why not have the contest judged on two scales? 1. Best artistic image. (People can create to their heart's content.) 2. Best use of Bryce. (to win that vote, folks would have to do more than just render in Bryce.) I guess the problem would be how to elect the next challenger if the same person didn't win both votes. That could be resolved by giving the Best use of Bryce honorable mention and let the overall winner choose the next challenge, or keep the categories even and the one with the highest votes (totaled from all the categories) chooses. I think it could be figured out.

Intersting that this discussion occurs this month... The challenge this month specifically stated that it would lend itself to use of poser type figures (perhaps more than some in the past). My entry this month uses many elements modeled in Bryce, one Poser character, and a few elements modeled in 3DStudioMax. The ability to use all of these elements together is a strength of Bryce. Bryce is great for outdoor scenes, but it's great for many other things also. Based on the way the voting has gone for the past few months (and the images that I've voted on), I'd hate to see the voting split based on "artistic" and "use of Bryce" categories. Both end up hard to define. Someone could model a huge building in Bryce but someone else may think that it was modeled in another program and not consider that "use of Bryce" simply because it's not an outdoor landscape scene. I really enjoy the idea of the contest and have learned a lot from the images that I have entered. Sometimes I've used them to develop a new technique that I'm trying to learn... Thanks to everyone for having a contest section and for realizing that it only improves all of our abilities to participate.

Again, and I can't stress this enough apparently; the use of Poser-figures or other items from different sources is not something I'm aganst at. But we mustn't forget this is a Bryce-challenge, and not, as someone else said earlier, a 'Poser-gallery'. If you want do something like that, it should go to the Poser-challenge, etc.

Rath, the difference between a good Poser image using Bryce to render, and a good Bryce scene with some Poser inside it is one that could be self policed. I've noticed voters making comments like "Gee, hard to choose, I like two or three of them". The scorecard for categories would fix that. If you think its a bad idea, so be it. I think there's a good point being made in this thread. Are we showcasing Poser or Bryce in this forum? And, is there a way to do both?

I agree with you, EricofSD. I think the way it should be is that the persons entering the challenge should impose restrictions themselves; keeping true to the Bryce-idea behind it all, and trying to keep within the boundaries set for the particular challenge (image-wise, technique-wise, idea-wise, etc.). We al love to make and look at great images. But a challenge is a challenge, designed to test us to create within set limits, no matter what they are. Try this one out; a composition in red-blue-yellow that is NOT allowed to represent anything (in other words; an abstract). you would still be able to create many, very different pics! Anyway, regarding the voting-part and calculating the winner; thats really up to Ken; after all, he has to do it each month!

I spent quite a bit of time thinking of what to make the this challange. I chose the subject to allow the most amount of people the opprotunity to have some fun. I also wanted to spark some imagination. Now someone who only has bryce and no other application including no paint or photo program has to stretch the imagination muscles. Still there are a ton of objects out there that can be imported. You just have to use some imagination to create an image that fits the theme. No one just renders in bryce. No one. You compose, light texture, adjust your image in dozens of different ways at the very minimum. You actually spend more time doing this that making the initial object were you to model it within bryce. Choosing challange topics that only limit what can be created only in bryce and using no other application, that would include no post processing, no object imports and no custom maps or painted textures or material presets. Because those would require a external paint or photo application. You would very quickly run out of Challange topics and the whole challange topic would die real quick. A really alented Bryce artist would have no problem comeing up with something to fit the theme without haveing to resort to outside applications. But this challange is not just limited to really talented bryce only artists nor are they excluded. So as no one cam only render in bryce, The use of imported objects is not detracting from the faithfullness of the challange.

Hmmm...this is a hard call because I agree with both sides of this "debate." On one hand I feel "yes it should be 'purist' in it's approach." On the other I have to agree with Pnevai...stretch the muscles and kick the crap out of those who do "use other apps." Nothing impresses me more than those who can blow me away with the use of only one minor app.

I can agree with points on both sides of this argument. On one hand, when I do a Bryce pic, I try to use postwork as little as possible and find a very stimulating part of the challenge of any project to be attempting to achieve my whole "scene" effect just with Bryce, though I will use postwork if necessary, but as little as possible. On the other hand, if I could only use Bryce and not use anything imported, the only things I'd be making would be landscapes, which, while nice, don't go all that far. Even my cave pic, which won that month's Bryce challenge, used a number of imported elements for the few architectural items visible in the cave, and the torches illuminating the wall. Without those imported elements (which I could not have done in Bryce without so much additional effort as to make the project un-feasible in the time I had for it), I could not have done the scene at all. The other pics I have posted in my gallery here make extensive use of imported models (since items of such complexity are way beyond my skills in Bryce), but I use Bryce for far more than just "rendering". I consider the imported models to be just elements, it's the overall scene that is my aim, and most of that depends on the interrelationships of object placements, lighting and all the rest of what Bryce is so good for. Even when I do a scene that's really based on a single figure, like my Goddess Saraswati picture, I really see that figure as a part of the total rather than seeing the rest of the picture as merely an accessory to the rendered figure. Maybe others might look at my work and see it differently. It's a tough question. I'm not sure of how to best achieve balance in a situation like this. It's good to see it being discussed, though. This should at least get us all to think more about what we are doing, and the how's and why's of it.

Well, its obvious now that Bryce is a render engine and only used to render stuff created in other apps and post enhanced to make it nice. I'm disappointed because Bryce has so much to offer for the folks who take the time to learn it. I don't believe in the purist approach, but I also don't believe in the opposite (using bryce only to render what was made elsewhere and nothing but a black background). Is there anyone out there that even knows about the DTE or the little button on the noise/phase popups that opens up the fractal equasions? Congrats to the winner, shame on the voters. This might seem harsh, but its quite clear that this isn't a bryce contest. Scald me if you will, its exceedingly clear that those who sweat and work with bryce take the back stage to the ones who put a simple poser image up for the vote. I'm here to learn about Bryce and share with other brycers. Can't compete with the poser crowd cuz I don't have the money to buy it. Let me know what you folks want to do. If this contest is to be voted on by the poser users only then I'm on the wrong forum. I don't see any reason to enter any more. All I learn now is that without Poser and with Bryce as nothing but a black backround, the entry means nothing. Guess I best enter my images in the Poser forum. Sorry for going off like this, but ... um.... no, I'm not sorry. This is the Bryce forum! Quite frankly, Scarlet, I don't give a damn. I'll enter again when I think a bryce entry will be appreciated.

For my two pence worth; I love bryce dearly, its about the only package I have been able to achieve ANY kind of result with. The boolean function is my lifeline for modeling. However, doing any kind of human figure with modeling??? realisticly? I think not. For a BRYCE challenge the focus should be on composing a scene that shows off bryce functions well, but if a human figure or machine is needed then import it. If that import becomes the whole entry then perhaps it is in the wrong forum. I have Poser 3 and its a pain to pose things out with a pre-set. Personally I find it easier within Bryce to link and then pose. BTW - Poser 3 was given away free with 3D World magazine a couple of months ago if any one is looking for it. My vote goes for the category scoring - Overall, Composition, USE OF BRYCE FEATURES. Would make the scoring more difficult (Sorry Ken) buit may make it a more balanced playing field? David

EricofSD: Give it another chance. If you go back and look at AgentSmith's post, he says in the next challenge, he'll use only Bryce. Since he gets to name the next challenge, it's quite possible that the person whose image made you the angriest will give you exactly what you want...

(((Is there anyone out there that even knows about the DTE or the little button on the noise/phase popups that opens up the fractal equasions?))) Yes...very familiar. Were it not for the DTE I would be DLing other people's textures. Even made some of my own presets in the DTE sub-menu. This is not a flame it is meant as advice/encouragement: Chill out...it's just a contest (similar things have happened to me as well..it just makes me try that much harder). It's been discussed and as ajtooley said Agent plans on making the next one Bryce only.

AJ, I have the highest respect for the winner, almost voted myself. That was a remarkable entry and did use Bryce lighting and some cloud/fog layer in it. And it was the choice of the voters that it fit the theme of the contest. Congrats once again to AgentSmith. (I do not wish to take anything away from his victory, it was well earned.) As for the extra work on Ken, maybe there's another option. The voters use a score sheet and choose one only. The score sheet adds points for Bryce technique, reduces points for poser dominated scenes, etc. Of course, the final gut choice gets the most points. Voter tallies and enters the choice. This changes the voters from just arbitrary choices to more of a judging choice. Dunno, just thought I'd throw that out. Doom, Yeah, you're right, my apology. There are many who post here that have above expert skills with Bryce and some of the undocumented features. As for Agent's plans, he or she is free to choose and I hope there's no self imposed (or peer imposed) restrictions. This is America after all. Perhaps the winner can choose "Poser dominated" or "Bryce dominated" scenes in the contest. After all, there is skill and much to learn about the importing process. This would help me decide if its a Bryce contest that I can enter or a Bryce contest that is beyond me. Just food for thought.

Let me see if I understand. If I load a spaceship model and a Poser model and fuss with the texture maps and/or bump maps using Bryce materials. Nobody will complain about the spaceship but the Poser model offends purists. Why are Poser models not seen as just models? If I make a human figure model in Truespace 5.1 and import it and fuss with it, is that also violation of "Pure Bryceness"?