I have been playing around with a scene that has a few Daz V4 figures and can't quite seem to get the same look in Vue 7 with them as they appear in Poser Pro (most recent versions of both).

After importing into scene, I have gone through by hand and made sure all the V4 skin materials were turned down for light to a more reasonable value, made sure there was no "dark" light or "green" light on import (although seems fixed in latest version) and checked some other tweaks.

The skin material on V4 looks about the same from figure to figure, unless it is a dark skin material or such. When you look at the imported scene in Vue compared to the scene posed in Poser and light inside Poser, I just can't seem to get the same look on the skin. I have even tried the real good "Skin Vue" and it does a LOT to help, but if you just go by the skin from Poser to Vue, it doesn't seem to look the same even with all the Vue edits to the V4 "Skin Materials".

Just wondering if anyone else has dealt with this and can give some tips on where to go from here since I have editied the mats in Vue and worked on the lighting. Is it still a lighting issue, a materials issue, etc? I am trying to get the most realistic look I can and Poser seems OK, but Vue seems to make them more bland or the same in looks even when different mats are applied to the different V4 figures.

Thanks for any thoughts or input on this.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1876604

In order to obtain a good looking skin in Vue it takes a good amount of effort both in materials and light. The adjustments to both things must be done together. You can have a wonderful material with all settings just perfect but if you have a bad lighting, it just doesn't work. And vice-versa.

Take the example in the link above. For this image, I used SkinVue as a start but then I changed almost everything about it. I edited SkinVue functions and changed them all, both in skin, lips and eyes. This was done in synch with the light adjustment. That's an environment mapping atmosphere, with some extra point lights carefully placed. The light model is Global Radiosity, with some gain. To get to that image, I worked for several hours, although I had done several portraits before (check out my gallery). In all the portraits I made, I never used the exact same technique. For every new image, I start with what I learned before and try to progress a bit more.

So, my advise is to experiment with all sorts of things until you're satisfied. As you gain experience, it'll become easier. :-)

Rutra,

I know what you mean about the trial and error and having to work with each scene a little different depending. SkinVue is nice, but it still does not give the same look as one rendered inside Poser for some reason.

One of the main issues I am having trouble with is working with the different body mats for V4/M4. They are VERY detailed and look real nice in Poser plus it is clear the difference between the characters skins. However, in Vue it does not seem to translate over well even when trying to tweak the light and materials in combo with SkinVue. The figures look about the same for their skin which is sort of hard to explain.

What I am seeing is if I use say 3 different purchased V4/M4 characters, each with unique skin mats that look different and very good in Poser and the Poser Light, it looks nearly the same inside Vue and all of the uniqueness of each V4/M4 skin mat is not really there. Compared to Poser, the Skin mats seem to have the same basic look for some reason.

Maybe I just need to figure out more lighting or something in Vue, but i have tried Point lights, Quads, etc. and even adjusted the "Sun" light to about 85% and softness for shadows at about 1 still to little avail. The whole Poser > Vue for V4/M4 skin mats is really something tedius I find and does not seem to translate well with loss of the unique texture of skin that shows up in Poser.

I'll keep working on this and may find something else to tweak. Don't know if there may be anything specific anyone can suggest but any input is nice to have.

Can you post a small example of the Poser render and the Vue render side by side.  Perhaps we can come up with some better ideas after seeing the image.  There are significant differences in the lighting, atmosphere and rendering models between Poser and Vue - obviously. 

If you look at my image, you'll see that the skin of the characters look very different. Light is key.

General recommendations, from the top of my head and from my own experience (others will have different opinions). Please note that I still use SkinVue6 although I have Vue7. If you have SkinVue7, the recommendations may not apply.

David, I love your package but, IMHO, it's still not perfect. Maybe SkinVue7 is, I have to buy that sometime. :-)

About light:

• Use environment mapping, but try several different maps to see which one you like the best. There are many free HDRI available on the net.
• Do not put light balance to 0% (the proposed default when you use environment map). Instead, put it between 5% and 20%
• Use point lights to create the highlights in the skin (environment map alone does not do it)
• Use GR

About skin:

• Take care with the slight luminosity that SkinVue materials have. In GR, it could look like light leaks and look strange (for example, it's very common in the ears), especially in Vue7 (in Vue6 it wasn't that noticeable). I normally tweak that manually.
• The lips in SkinVue generally look good in women with make-up only, due to its color and highlights. In men this doesn't look very natural, I always tweak that manually.
• The eye-reflect material that provides the reflections in SkinVue also prevent shadow from the eye lids in certain conditions, which looks fake. I also tweak that manually.
• Use a highlight map if the skin you're using has one (it would be called specularity map). Note that this doesn't translate from Poser into Vue, you have to apply that manually.
• Use a bump map if the skin you're using has one. Tick displacement if you see jagged edges in the shadow-light transitions. Note that sometimes the bumpmap does not translate from Poser into Vue, you may have to apply that manually, sometimes.
• Experiment with different bump strengths. Different skins need different values. The lips also need a different value from the face.
• Use SSS for the teeth. The normal poser teeth look horrible.
• Avoid skins that are too smooth and flat, very doll-like. The best ones are the ones with small imperfections, pores, etc.

There's many other things, many small details, but I think this is a good start. :-)

Here's an image rendering sequence that shows a V4 character progression from Poser to Vue (Warning: Nudity):

http://www.skinvue.net/Vue7/SkinVue7PoserCompare.jpg

1.  The number one factor in getting a decent looking render of Poser characters in Vue is the lighting and atmosphere setup.  This one uses the SkinVue GI Gray atmosphere with a slightly increased level of ambience. 

1. The lower left SkinVue render is using the default SkinVue settings.  You can see that the Bombshell V4 character is a bit too warm and oversaturated.  The Pretty 3D Character is bit too light and the Karlin charater lacks skin details.

2. The SkinVue adjusted image (Lower Right) corrects the problems by adjusting the Warmth and Tone settings and increasing the Skin Splotching details on the Pretty3D and Karlin characters.

Quote - If you look at my image, you'll see that the skin of the characters look very different. Light is key.

General recommendations, from the top of my head and from my own experience (others will have different opinions). Please note that I still use SkinVue6 although I have Vue7. If you have SkinVue7, the recommendations may not apply.

David, I love your package but, IMHO, it's still not perfect. Maybe SkinVue7 is, I have to buy that sometime. :-)

About light:

• Use environment mapping, but try several different maps to see which one you like the best. There are many free HDRI available on the net.
• Do not put light balance to 0% (the proposed default when you use environment map). Instead, put it between 5% and 20%
• Use point lights to create the highlights in the skin (environment map alone does not do it)
• Use GR

About skin:

• Take care with the slight luminosity that SkinVue materials have. In GR, it could look like light leaks and look strange (for example, it's very common in the ears), especially in Vue7 (in Vue6 it wasn't that noticeable). I normally tweak that manually.
• The lips in SkinVue generally look good in women with make-up only, due to its color and highlights. In men this doesn't look very natural, I always tweak that manually.
• The eye-reflect material that provides the reflections in SkinVue also prevent shadow from the eye lids in certain conditions, which looks fake. I also tweak that manually.
• Use a highlight map if the skin you're using has one (it would be called specularity map). Note that this doesn't translate from Poser into Vue, you have to apply that manually.
• Use a bump map if the skin you're using has one. Tick displacement if you see jagged edges in the shadow-light transitions. Note that sometimes the bumpmap does not translate from Poser into Vue, you may have to apply that manually, sometimes.
• Experiment with different bump strengths. Different skins need different values. The lips also need a different value from the face.
• Use SSS for the teeth. The normal poser teeth look horrible.
• Avoid skins that are too smooth and flat, very doll-like. The best ones are the ones with small imperfections, pores, etc.

There's many other things, many small details, but I think this is a good start. :-)

Good points all Rutra.  A couple of comments:

1.  SkinVue7 is more friendly when using GR atmospheres - less light leak caused by SSS.  However, in some cases you may have to turn SSS way down depending on the GR gain.

1. GR can produce very nice results with Skin renderings but you have be very careful in how it's used as it can produce too much color bleeding.  I've found that using the "Optimizing for Outdoor Rendering" switch and turning down the GR gain can help.

3.  For me anyways, I normally use GI atmospheres for character renders since it's easier to produce better looking shadows and control the overall lighting.

Quote - "2. GR can produce very nice results with Skin renderings but you have be very careful in how it's used as it can produce too much color bleeding.  I've found that using the "Optimizing for Outdoor Rendering" switch and turning down the GR gain can help."

Color bleeding is one of the reasons why I use GR and not GI. This phenomenon happens naturally in real world but GI does not simulate it. Of course, I have to be careful on not overdoing it.
The other reasons for using GR is that it makes the skin warmer and does a better job (IMO) of faking SSS.

Quote - "3.  For me anyways, I normally use GI atmospheres for character renders since it's easier to produce better looking shadows and control the overall lighting."

Yes, but where's the fun in doing it the easy way? LOL :-)

Here's a "G"-rated version of a quasi-finished product to share a couple of tips on character rendering postwork:

1. It's usually a good idea to add some softening to the image to remove harsh details.  The Vue post options lens glare can sometimes work for this but the Photoshop/PSP softening filters are usually better.

2. Employ something which helps to separate the characters from the background to give it some depth such as DOF blur, adding background point lights, etc. 

3. Adjust the brightness-contrast levels in photoshop or alternatively, the Vue post options "Gain" slider can sometimes work for this as well.

Quote - Here's a "G"-rated version of a quasi-finished product to share a couple of tips on character rendering postwork:

1. It's usually a good idea to add some softening to the image to remove harsh details.  The Vue post options lens glare can sometimes work for this but the Photoshop/PSP softening filters are usually better.

2. Employ something which helps to separate the characters from the background to give it some depth such as DOF blur, adding background point lights, etc. 

3. Adjust the brightness-contrast levels in photoshop or alternatively, the Vue post options "Gain" slider can sometimes work for this as well.

Thanks, this and the above info has given me some ideas and something to work on. I do have SkinVue 7 and have been working on the settings some trying to get the skin to look like it does in Poser.

The postwork is something I can try in Photoshop CS4, but it is not needed and looks GREAT in Poser Pro render with no postwork so that is what I am aiming for.

On your image - PG version, I can't tell too much from the skin detail realism due to the bright light glare of the image and non closeup. When I render with the Poser Pro lights setup it looks very REAL and not artificial. The image you posted still does not have a "realism" look to the figure skin as much as a general Poser render I can achieve with it's lights and "V4 Skin Realism Kit" here in the marketplace.

Right now I am just playing around some with the settings some more and the lighting to see if I can get close, but I am beginning to wonder if Poser Pro is just not better at rendering REALISM for Daz figures. BTW, have you seen some of the renders being done with "Daz Studio" newest version and the "realism" kits over at Daz? They render VERY realistic and don't have a doll look at all. Just thinking this may not be something that can be achieved in Vue 7, though you and others with more experience I am sure would know better.

I will continue to work on this and hope to get it at least as good as Poser Pro renders if not Daz Studio eventually, unless it's just not possible in Vue 7.

Thanks for the replies and info.

dburdick,

I took a look at the other image with the progression and saw the results a little better on that one. However, if you look at the Poser render and the last figure on the right, **Karlin, you can see what I am sort of referring to. To me, the Poser render still looks better. Also, I do not know what lighting or if any "skin realism kit" for Poser was used on the V4 figures, but when I do mine, I get VERY nice detailed closup skin that looks even better, near human like.

Like I said, not sure really how to replicate this or even if you can inside Vue 7 compared with Poser Pro. For realism, it may just be better at it than Vue, but I am not giving up yet. Surely if Poser Pro can do it then there must be a way in Vue one would think. However, this sure is getting complex in Vue compared with Poser and it's skin realism.

Thanks.

P.S. Ignore the bold, it's a browser issue right now and all my posts are coming out in bold here at this time. :(

**

Quote - dburdick,

I took a look at the other image with the progression and saw the results a little better on that one. However, if you look at the Poser render and the last figure on the right, **Karlin, you can see what I am sort of referring to. To me, the Poser render still looks better. Also, I do not know what lighting or if any "skin realism kit" for Poser was used on the V4 figures, but when I do mine, I get VERY nice detailed closup skin that looks even better, near human like.

Like I said, not sure really how to replicate this or even if you can inside Vue 7 compared with Poser Pro. For realism, it may just be better at it than Vue, but I am not giving up yet. Surely if Poser Pro can do it then there must be a way in Vue one would think. However, this sure is getting complex in Vue compared with Poser and it's skin realism.

Thanks.

P.S. Ignore the bold, it's a browser issue right now and all my posts are coming out in bold here at this time. :(

**

Hi Jeff,

I guess it's all in the eyes of the beholder.  The Poser Karlin one looks like a plastic mannequin to me because the speculars are over-amped.  If you are looking for that type of render in Vue, you can try to increase the amount of specular light.  Here are a couple of over-amped type Vue renders I've done with speculars similar to a Poser-look:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1653837

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1615847

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1603268

It would help if you could post a Poser image showing the type of look you are after.

dburdick,

Thanks for the continued help on this. You may be right, it may just be that I am new to Vue and was more use to the way Poser did things. Perhaps the lighting you state is better in that image of Vue over Poser. I am still learning many things on Vue and that is why this helps so I can understand the lighting and looks more.

I will try to post some links later today as well, but I wanted you to know that your one link is almost exactly what I am looking for in Vue for skin realism. This is the one you did I am referring to:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1603268

If I could replicate this look in Vue for my imports I would be quite happy. Do you think that one is well done? Reason I ask is you said some look fake, but this one looks real good to me and about the best I can maybe refer to. Basically, I just need to fine tune this to show a scene with a V4 figure like this in the background, say a beach or something so there are 2 render versions of it: 1 that is the FULL scene and the 2nd that is a close up of the V4 model(s). The link above is really what I am after for most of my scenes. If you could help by letting me know some settings for SkinVue 7 and other tips to achieve this it would help a lot. Do you think I would need to adjust the lighting in the scene if I want to do 2 renders like mentioned above, one that is the full scene and the other a closeup render focused on the character(s)?

Thanks again for all the help and others too, I am more optimistic it will work out now for me as I continue to learn about achieving this realism.

Quote - dburdick,

Thanks for the continued help on this. You may be right, it may just be that I am new to Vue and was more use to the way Poser did things. Perhaps the lighting you state is better in that image of Vue over Poser. I am still learning many things on Vue and that is why this helps so I can understand the lighting and looks more.

I will try to post some links later today as well, but I wanted you to know that your one link is almost exactly what I am looking for in Vue for skin realism. This is the one you did I am referring to:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1603268

If I could replicate this look in Vue for my imports I would be quite happy. Do you think that one is well done? Reason I ask is you said some look fake, but this one looks real good to me and about the best I can maybe refer to. Basically, I just need to fine tune this to show a scene with a V4 figure like this in the background, say a beach or something so there are 2 render versions of it: 1 that is the FULL scene and the 2nd that is a close up of the V4 model(s). The link above is really what I am after for most of my scenes. If you could help by letting me know some settings for SkinVue 7 and other tips to achieve this it would help a lot. Do you think I would need to adjust the lighting in the scene if I want to do 2 renders like mentioned above, one that is the full scene and the other a closeup render focused on the character(s)?

Thanks again for all the help and others too, I am more optimistic it will work out now for me as I continue to learn about achieving this realism.

Hi Jeff,

Here is a link to screen grab showing the setup for the SkinVue Bombshell character render you liked:

http://www.skinvue.net/Vue7/PoserBombshellSettings.jpg

A couple of things:

1. This one uses the SkinVue GIBlack atmosphere with a bit more ambient boost added in and more uniform ambient light.

2. The SkinVue settings are just the default ones with the bumps turned down a bit and a little less skin specular.

3.  The lighting setup adds 3 low-power point lights:

• a distant point light to a bit more light to the overall character and to bring out the skin specs
• a closeup point light to light the eyes and create the eye speculars
• a closeup point light to light the necklace

1. Also, notice the Post Rendering options where I toned down the saturation and gamma, and increased the gain a bit.

This is a pretty standard setup for me when doing straight up quasi photo-real type renders in Vue.  Normally, I prefer more dramatic pin-up or edge-lit type character renders, but to each his own.