Hiya SaintFox,

Well I'm glad you like the fixed version. I'm still kicking myself for not having noticed the stretching problem sooner. ;-)
For others who may not know what she's talking about, she noticed the scleras on Antonia 116b were badly distorted, so I fixed it and she's the only one with a copy at the moment. Turns out that they were unwrapped sort of inside-out for lack of a better way to describe it.
The eyes in AP 116b, that is, not that "alternate" eye object I made. (And since it was brought up about Poser Figure  Designations Through Acronyms (PFDTA), I'd prefer something with an X and a hyphen and some numbers, like X-17 or X-004, just because it looks cool)

Anyway, sure SaintFox, I'll make a new template for you showing you where that is that they meet up, but I can't do it until tomorrow morning. No time now, I'm on my way out for an evening of wanton debauchery. ;-)

Quote - SaintFox and MikeJ: if we end up keeping the current eyes and not replacing them with bagginsbill's(*), is there any good reason not to use my original UV-mapping for the eyes? It seems to me that that version always worked fine, seeing as it had the iris-sclera overlap already built in.

And if we use bagginsbill's, it seems to me that he's already mapped them as to work with the existing eye textures for my mapping, so there'd be no reason for a new UV-mapping, either.

This is not to diminish the efforts of either of you. It just seems to me as if you might be wasting your time on reinventing a perfectly functional wheel.

(*) And that's a big "if", because at the moment it seems to me that I'll use his as soon as I can get my grabby hands on them.

No, no problem at all. I was thinking the same thing, actually, but with it all up in the air and all I've just been continuing to work on it.
Did he mention the nature of the UVs? I was under the impression it was not mapped traditionally, but rather just a texture projection.
I also agree with you - the eyes you did are fine and I've said before I prefer the way you did them to the way I did.
It's your call, of course, and whatever you decided is cool with me. :-)

I am aware that the overlapping is built in! But to avoid this sharp edge between iris and sclera you have to use a little transparency to achieve this milky blend every real human eye has. And it is not easy to hit exactly the small edge that creates the effect but does not create a "hole" in the sclera. So for the question "What will we use in the end": I'll sit and wait - and as soon as you all decided what eye will be the final version that ships with Antonia I'll sit down and create some more irisses if necessary. Because the first version of textures I did does only contain one eyecolor while the new mapping contains a little collection for more variety.

As said: I'll wait what you decide! As long as you all can wait for me to deliver needed textures every decision you make is fine with me.

I will zip up the changed body-textures and changed materials in an hour or so and upload them and an update for all people who already have the full set. Please note that the distorted scleras are not fixed yet!

Okay, the Update is available (see text file in the Developer forum --> Texture Sets) and the complete set was updated as well!

SaintFox: The only reason I can see for that transparency map is that it would allow one to change the texture maps for the iris and sclera independently of each other. That would be nice, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the effort. It might be better to simply use one material for each eyeball and one for each cornea or - in bagginsbill's version - "eye cover" and mix and match the scleras with the irises in Photoshop. I'd say the standard sclera will probably be fine for 95% of all renders, and if someone wants a different sclera texture, they'd probably need an special iris and pupil to go with it, anyway.

In any case, if we end up using bagginsbill's eyes, the transparency solution won't work, and the only way of changing the iris texture while keeping the sclera will be via masks.

Quote - Okay, the Update is available (see text file in the Developer forum --> Texture Sets) and the complete set was updated as well!

Yay! I'll try it out when I get home.

Having a sclera that overlaps the iris and has transparency near the joint is way too complicated and will slow down rendering with ray-tracing, especially with IDL. And it really isn't going to produce any more flexibility than simply blending two image maps in one shader. You don't even have to make a mask. I calculate the radius using nodes. In fact, the image I'm using (think I said this before) has junk in the pupil and I masked it out with nodes.

Here are some comparisons in a much different lighting setup. The differences are not entirely due to shaders. Look at the edge of the iris. This is what I complained about many months ago - the hard edge. This edge was due to geometry, not to the texture. The new eye uses the same texture, but has a soft edge to the iris. And the iris-pupil transition is much more realistic.

I'll wait and see what you decide - and then I'll try the eye set that will be added to Antonia under different light situations and see how it works. So far and with the material settings used for the 116 mapping the transparency was the only solution to avoid a visible edge.

bagginsbill: Impressive demo! I'll buy one.

And I'll just call a blending via nodes a procedural mask and pretend that that's what I meant all along.

Quote - I'll wait and see what you decide - and then I'll try the eye set that will be added to Antonia under different light situations and see how it works. So far and with the material settings used for the 116 mapping the transparency was the only solution to avoid a visible edge.

That's why I thought simply going back to the old mapping would be easier.

Let's just say here and now that we'll stick with the old mapping, because it works with both my old and BB's new eyes, and I'll patch the current geometry together with MikeJ's new UV mapping for everything but the eyes and my old mapping for the eyes. As soon as I get the new eyes in my grabby fingers, I'll plug them in and reduce the number of eye materials.

Does that work for everyone?

Also, in preview, with the refractive cover shader, the eyes are totally black. Ooooooooo. People won't like that.

Here's a demo of procedural masking of the iris, and procedurally changing its color, as if we were using a second image.

Upps... am I so tired already that I wrote that I want to change something on the IRIS?? Of course I meant the sclera by blending it into the iris with a transmap. Exactly to create an effect like the one on this photo instead of having the sharp seperation between iris and sclera that makes it easy to tell 3d from human.

It's an effect I try to achieve since I am texturing eyes - with some eyes it is almost impossible (I think that the P6 Sydney eye was one of those...) but with Antonia's eye I got pretty good results so far.

Quote - Upps... am I so tired already that I wrote that I want to change something on the IRIS??

No, I think that was just silly me failing to understand what your were saying.

...or silly me trying my best to express myseelf in a foreign language...

Quote - ...or silly me trying my best to express myseelf in a foreign language...

Was Sie nicht sagen! :lol:

Ja... das ist nun fies! Auf deutsch kann ich auch geistreich sein!! :tongue2:

Here I did it with nodes, so even a sharp edge can be fixed up procedurally.

That's what I mean!!! A sample material would be nice if you release these eyes so that I can experiment with it. People may be used to the sharp seperation of iris and sclera but at least to me this looks more lifelike. And as the eyes bring a face to live, at least in portraits...

Note - we need to do something about the lacrimal.

When all texturers are done with their work there should be lacrimals for every taste LOL The one I used with the new mapping is far darker and more red - but ask 10 people what they prefer and you get 11 opinions

And yes, if creating the illusion of the iris and the sclera grown together can be done by using procedural settings you will just need a good iris photo and get rid of the reflections and some photos of the surrounding eyewhite as it works best to tell the model to look to different directions so that you are able to capture as much of the eyeball as possible.

Quote - With minimal work, I think you could get the perfect eye texture just by taking a good photo of an eye.

Yep! It's amazing how hard it is to find good references for irises on the web. Most have huge reflections either from soft box lights or ambient light that make them practically worthless.

If you use the one's provided by Levius/3d.sk you have to get rid of some reflections as well but it is not that hard. Most of the time copying out a sector without reflection and pasting it over the highlight (after rotating and such) will do the trick.

The bigger problem is that because of the extreme close up some photos are washed out/blurred and then they are indeed worthless...

SaintFox, this is just a smaller scale version of the UV template you already have, just for illustration purposes. I've drawn bright green lines around where the iris and the sclera meet, and I went ahead and filled in the pupils too.
I hope this is what you wanted. Although I'm not so sure it's even going to matter any. ;-)

I just made them by extracting the polys on AP116b's high res head, and made a few minor modifications. As a result, the UVs are the same as the UVs on the AP116b head. I don't know if Poser can use maps in the hair room for coloring hair strands or masking or whatever, but other programs can, so it made sense to have UVs.

In the file are two OBJ files, two UV templates, and two smart props parented to AP's head. Should work fine for all hi res versions of Antonia past and future, but again, note that these are my UVs, not the original Antonia UVs. In other words, if you want to paint hair on 'em and match the textures up with earlier Antonia head textures, that's not going to work.

If someone wants to let me know if these even work, I'd appreciate it. I went in the hair room and clicked around, but nothing happened, so I don't know if there's something else that needs to be done to them or if Poser Pro's hair room is broken, or what, and I don't have the time to mess with it.
They work quite well in... "other"... programs, however. ;-)

Ich habe deine Sculpkappe mal an Antonia ausprobiert. Das einzige was du falsch gemacht hast ist die Integration. Sie darf nicht als Prop sondern muß als Figur sein. Ich habe sie dem Head gleich gemacht als Figur. Damit ist die Funktion besser gewährleistet.
Es ist nur ein Bild das es geht.

Quote - Okay, the Update is available (see text file in the Developer forum --> Texture Sets) and the complete set was updated as well!

Thank you SaintFox!
I'm looking forward to checking those out. :-)

Quote - I speak not a good english. I speak moor gemany.

Ich habe deine Sculpkappe mal an Antonia ausprobiert. Das einzige was du falsch gemacht hast ist die Integration. Sie darf nicht als Prop sondern muß als Figur sein. Ich habe sie dem Head gleich gemacht als Figur. Damit ist die Funktion besser gewährleistet.
Es ist nur ein Bild das es geht.

Hopefully that means it works. ;-)
Thank you for testing. :-)

I intgretit the sculp not als porp. I integretit the als figure. Als prop no work als figure works good. Thet I testet.

Quote -
Rendered in P8 with IDL. The light is 90% environmental lighting. I did not use HSVETM, but rather shader GC, which I think still produces better results.

so this is a normal GC skin shader with IDL? is IDL 100% intensity?

Quote - I intgretit the sculp not als porp. I integretit the als figure. Als prop no work als figure works good. Thet I testet.

Oh I think I understand.  It has to be a figure, not a prop?

Thank you for explaining that and testing it! :-)
That hair looks pretty wild. ;-)

Ok I hop yuor understand mie a littel bit. I not good in englich.

Yes the hair is pretty wild. Are in Poser withe the hairroom kann yuor make  many moor hairs vor Antonia. I´´the a quastion of time and prapering the dials in the room.

Ther is an informetion vor you where I teck the obj in the cr2. And as I main with the scalling the obj.   

Hallo Model342, willkommen in unserer kleinen Spielecke Dein Englisch mag nicht das beste sein, aber offenbar kommt das, was Du ausdrücken willst an - ansonsten können odf oder ich auch mit Übersetzungen aushelfen!

Mike: Thanks for the map! That's what I figured out as well but I was unsure and needed some good advice by he creator himself
I'll wait and see what eyes will be included in the set but if I have some spare time I'll refine what I did so far, just for fun and if desired for further use.

The wild hairstyle can be altered to whatever is desired by altering the style with several parameters. With different settings the wild golden blonde hair should turn into a classic layerd haircut.

Ich schreibe und rede nicht sehr gut Englisch. Ich hatte in der Schule nur 1 Jahr ( ingesamt 40 h ) Englischuntericht. Mehr gab es in der DDR nicht für mich. 

Danke das nutze ich gerne. Wenn ich hier ein wenig deutsch schreiben darf. Ist alles ok für mich. 

Danke noch mal für die Übersetzung mit der Frisur.

So mal eine andere Variation.

Quote -
Mike: Thanks for the map! That's what I figured out as well but I was unsure and needed some good advice by he creator himself

You are most welcome.

And thanks again, model342, and for the .cr2. :-)

Regarding BB's eyes...
I asked this earlier but didn't get an answer - are they UV mapped in some way, or is that a standard texture projection, like spherical?
Will there be something people can actually paint on?

Thank´s MikeJ

Antonia is very nice. And i hop the team makes Antonia always better.
I greatly  respect the team vor works what they done in a year.

Ich hoffe ich habe mich hier nicht alzu sehr blamiert mit meinem geringen Englisch.

 Wir alle haben Probleme mit Fremdsprachen. Google-Übersetzungen 
sind besser als nichts. Wir entschuldigen uns für Ihr Interesse an der Ein-und glücklich 
Antonia. Willkommen an Bord!

Google: www.google.com/language_tools

Quote - Regarding BB's eyes...
I asked this earlier but didn't get an answer - are they UV mapped in some way, or is that a standard texture projection, like spherical?
Will there be something people can actually paint on?

I simply projected the XY plane onto the eyes. There is of course stretching on the XY great circle, but the eye never rotates that far into view so it doesn't matter. A benefit of this is if you have a photo of an eye straight on, such as the one I took of myself, it lays on the eye perfectly, with no visible perspective distortion due to the curvature. You can start with any photo, center and scale it so the pupil and iris line up with the existing template, then you just need to clone and smudge far enough away that we don't see the eyelids and lacrimals from the photo.

I arranged the radius of the iris and pupil to exactly match the beautiful eye texture SaintFox gave us many months ago. I didn't pay any attention to how the existing eye is UV mapped. I simply made that texture file work, and all the others seem to work too.

Every Antonia eye texture can be used right away. I'm also planning on building a shader that will take V4 eyes, where the coordinates are transformed in the shader, not on the eye UV mapping assignments. I could also do V3 eyes, etc. The re-positioning of texture maps coordinates in the shader is actually pretty easy.

Ok, thanks for 'splaining that.
Sounds pretty cool and versatile, but it's going to leave Poser 4 users out, and without "real" UVs would require people to make their own UVs and textures (or adapt existing textures) for use in other apps.

I'm not knocking it at all, so don't get that impression; on the contrary, I think it's brilliant. But I don't think Antonia should be limited so narrowly to only certain versions of Poser and be mostly Poser-centric.

Also, for example, what would that do for the Poser Pro current and upcoming version, where it comes to Poser Fusion?
As it is, none of the nodes carry over and all that does is simple Phong+Texture. So the eyes wouldn't translate unless they were more "traditional".

What do you mean by without "real" UVs? You're saying things I'm unable to parse.

It is UV mapped, and works without any fancy shaders. You can simply load the texture onto the eye and it works.

As for the cover, if you don't have Poser 5 and up, you simply set it to a traditional transparent material with specular and it works, too, up to a point. It won't look right from the side, but that's true of all Poser eyes that only use transparenty on the cornea.

Well, I'm really not familiar with how Poser deals with mapping textures onto objects that don't have explicit UVs, so I'm basing it on how some other apps deal with it. Such as a planar projection, spherical, cylindrical, and so on, which are not exactly "real" UVs in that the projection can be altered and animated at any time within the program - stretched, moved, rotated, etc.

"Traditional " UVs are just stuck there, permanent, unchanging.

Thank´s Joelglaine.

I write with Bing Translator. But I'm trying to write a little without.

You misunderstand. In the script, I evaluated the planar projection and then wrote explicit UV's that implement that projection into the OBJ file. These concepts of UV projection mode and so on are only meaningful while I'm in the scripting environment, dealing with the geometry in the object-oriented system. When I call "WriteOBJ" on the object, it becomes a totally standard OBJ file with no magic at all.

Many of your responses and issues about compatibility with different apps seem to be all driven from this single mistaken premise - that the high-level features, like Level of Detail, like UV projection modes, etc. are lost if you target this app or that app. No they're not. Once I create the loadable prop, all those options are gone. I can create a new prop that expresses variations on those options, but Poser or Maya or whatever will never see those except as explicit frozen OBJ files with explicit topology, explicit vertex positions, and explicit UV values.

Let me put it another way.

Two people build an eye.

One person uses Blender.

The other person is me, using, let's call it, "geomatic". The fact that geomatic is in Python has nothing to do with Poser. It is pure Python and I don't run geomatic in Poser.

The Blender person does a bunch of stuff in blender, including UV mapping his object, then saves it as an OBJ file.

I do a bunch of stuff in geomatic, including UV mapping my object, then I save it as an OBJ file.

At this point, either of us could give the OBJ file to the community and everybody can use it in any app. You do not need to know which app, Blender or geomatic, was used in the construction of this object. Whatever automation features these apps have, such as adaptive subdivision, UV projection, etc. have nothing whatsoever to do with how users use the resulting OBJ file.