[OK, I admit this is a bit of a rant]

why is it that some of the most mediocre art gets so much positive comment? It's one of my chief grievances with this site, that the users often comment on 'art' because it's done by someone they like, and instead of criticism or genuine feedback, they just say "Wonderful!" "Amazing!" "Perfect lighting!", when really the feeling-less, uninteresting, poorly lit and rendered art is worthy only of deletion.

I know new users deserve encouragement, and I know it's good to give positive feedback and constructive criticism, but the comments are often blindly and unrelentingly sycophantic. I can't really give examples without insulting people, but there are people in the galleries who post something mediocre in the Poser gallery every day, and get thousands of comments saying how wonderful it is, when really the image looks like something from a low-poly single-light Poser 4 scene.

[rant over, answers on a postcard]

Perhaps it's just me.

I'm trying to decide whether this thread is a can of worms opening session or a dead horse flogging session, You're talking , by the way, about the clique & their followers. Best to get your dragon scale body armour & kevlar helmet on before the stone throwing starts.

And it's not just you. ;)

Yeah, I thought I'd seen this type of thread before. But as dead horses go, it's an annoying one which deserves repeated flogging!

Couldn't agree more, it needs flogging till it stops twitching.

It's a vig problem, when you have a negative critic people imagine is for discourage, the better is saying the trust with explanation ...

We all have different opinion of the art ...
 

True, but "ooh how lovely" when the picture is supposed to be Paris hilton but in fact looks like Quasimodo's ugly brother doesn't really help the person creating it improve their skills. ;)

exactly; what's wrong with constructive criticism every now and then? Surely that's how a good community should operate - if we just all complemented each other all the time, the human race would die out pretty quickly.

Developmental cul-de-sac. That's what it is.

Well while this is a Dead horse you should Realize that Many Many people here
never go anywhere
else and Dont have any Clue what a properly lit & textured
3D rendered scene looks like.

Besides your "constructive criticism" will be ignored at will not inspire the "Culprit" to change there methods to improve their renders  by one single digital molecule.
because they will only sit contently and be encouraged by the empty praise to post even more of the same.

Dont waste your time.

Cheers

It's been like that for a long time now. I don't think it will change. I'd rather have some constructive remarks, the all the wow's and such, but I must admit that a few wow's now and then are nice. It's a shame indeed that mostly mediocre images get all the attention, perhaps we should do our best less and make some terribly done images also?

I think that a huge help would be a change of selection in the staff picks. I often wonder why they even promote the images they do promote. A lot of them we've seen a million times before and others aren't outstanding at all. I do think they should promote the images that stand out, are innovating or done well, not what everybody likes already.

Quote - Well while this is a Dead horse you should Realize that Many Many people here
never go anywhere
else and Dont have any Clue what a properly lit & textured
3D rendered scene looks like.

I disagree. There are enough good image here that are properly lit and textures, within Posers limits of course. They just don't get the attention they deserve, because everyone is too busy rating bad images made by their buddies and encouraging them to make more of those, instead of searching out the good stuff.

With IMHO firmly in place, on I go...

Well, I think that there are a number of things with gallery comments...

Some who comment want to show their support for whoever posted the image, which is well-meant and almost always well-received :) Some people who post images don't really respond well to critique, no matter how gently phrased, so commenting becomes a bit of a "walking on eggshells" minefield (to ridiculously overwork some cliches.) It's that balance that's difficult to get right when you aren't actually face to face with the artist that makes these things, so it is hard to judge right. I guess most people commenting tend to play safe.

I know that when I remove a picture following critique, it means that I agree with the critique and took it down to re-work it. It almost certainly comes across as petulant sulking, but is really an admission that the critique offered was on the money and that I need to work harder in order to improve whatever it was that I overlooked / ****ed up.

Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

On another website,  I saw a pretty good rendering and it was obvious that the individual used Poser 8.  A person took the time to comment on the picture, and suggested that if the individual increased the lighting, it would really enhance the rendering.

The author didn't want to do because it would take hours to render.  There are tricks that he could have used to reduce the rendering time (I didn't see any reflections in it accept for the door knobs) and no one suggested turning on IDL and using IBL.

Even on a single CPU it doesn't have to take hours for reasonably sized rendering to render even with IDL activated-he/she has other problems with the computer.   The individual could have been helped but didn't wany any.  Jan

Quote - Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

kaibach have you read all those books? did you know number 6 in the trilogy has recently been released?

I don't leave negative comments, cuz, I only click on the images thumbnail that looks like something I would like.  And I don't feel like I know enough to give critical advice.

I browse the Gallery to enjoy it.

Quote - > Quote - Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.

kaibach have you read all those books? did you know number 6 in the trilogy has recently been released?

and heard the Radio show and records, watched the TV series and wanted to kill someone over the movie....

Quote -
The author didn't want to do because it would take hours to render.  There are tricks that he could have used to reduce the rendering time (I didn't see any reflections in it accept for the door knobs) and no one suggested turning on IDL and using IBL.

Even on a single CPU it doesn't have to take hours for reasonably sized rendering to render even with IDL activated-he/she has other problems with the computer.   The individual could have been helped but didn't wany any.  Jan

Yes I dont believe "bagginsbill" is using some kind  of UBER rendering hardware set up
and he has shown people that it does NOT take hours to get a decent IDL render but hardly no one seems to care.

Why?? because once you start asking people in the poser gallery sect to actually
Start Learning rendering parameters and other settings you lose your audience due to the fact that people find it easier to use presets for everything.
and dont want to learn how to customize lighting for example.

And why should they??
they are  not CG professionals
they have no  paying Clients to please
and there is  plenty of personal satisfaction to be had from the guaranteed gallery "praise".

The Same goes for Animation
with the advent of  nonlinear auto Drag&Drop solutions Like aniMate+ For DAZ studio
We see Youtube flooded with some of the most Awful Cobbled together non-contextual animation sequences I have ever seen .
replete with unbearable Canned music Loops & unsightly,cheesy 'Vegas video" title Sequences.
but  since most people(Gallery posters &Praisers) are hobbiests and we should Not expect
them to spend alot time& effort Producing Quality Images& animations.

Cheers

I have no comment...lol. Much, much too incendiary...hehehe.

Laurie

 It seems to me that people tend to comment more about whether they like the subject matter than the technical expertise. I have a Poser graphics site that has all levels of artists as members, as well as a lot of non-artists. The images that get all the twitter are not the technically good ones... they are the ones that pander to the interests of the visitors. I can put up something that I've made sure is at least minimally complete and it never gets a nod, while a shadowless, plain-background, picture lit with the default lights gets 20 comments because the character looks like Barbie.

Most commenters don't know enough about what you're doing to even have a judgement! It's like me and shaders... I have a terrible time using them, and therefore don't feel qualified to comment on those who do. (I don't care for a lot of the effects obtained this way, but don't feel like I know enough to ever discuss it!)

My $.02

if you say something like " you know, this image just totally sucks the big one" .. you're going to hurt someones feelngs and bring the wrath upon yourself.
If you're honest and tell it like it is, you're going to hurt someone's feelings...and you're going to be the bad guy ...

BUT .. you can go to the critque forum and get pounded as much as you want ... if you REALLY want your work to be critisied. now how many of you would rather have all the positive drivil poured upon yourself. Well just go to the critique forum and note how few are there putting their work up for real critique.

I have been seeing this alot also and have thought to myself, are the ppl leaving comments f'n blind????  There are obivious things that stick out like thumbs wrong with the image here...but, who am I to comment. I just think, wow keep encouraging ppl to put forth (blank blank )artwork instead of pushing them to actually see what they are doing wrong and make the steps to fix some things. I am no one to judge, but glad im not the only one that sits an scratches my head....

Right, we're all in agreement.

Trouble is, we can't change human nature, and the mods can't just start culling mindless comments, so this is never going to go anywhere.

Ah well, I'm going to keep adding harsh criticism to people's work, regardless - i rather enjoy being the bad guy (hence the 'nemesis' part of my username), and if people notice that, yes, perhaps they should try & improve rather than thinking their cr4p is excellent, then I think the ends justifies the means - it was only through criticism that I improved.

I sit and scratch my head when I read  post in my image gallery , but then again, I never claimed to be good at anything, and I do not strive for real world "realism".

If it makes someone happy to post a comment on an image, good/bad or indifferent, then great.

I just "doodle" and post the stuff I like. If I want corrective crits I go to other places and post WIPS....

I look back at some of the horrendous renders I had posted early on in using Poser 5, and I think that along the way I have learned something, but rarely due to comments posted here. 

The funny thing is I read more posts and messages where the person is asking for a hard and fast way to do something, wanting to be spoon fed information on "How To Do xxx" without taking the time to try to experiment and find what works for them. But then again I guess if all you ever read is GREAT, WOW, SUPERB, and the like, then you have no reason to make change.

.02

Quote -

Ah well, I'm going to keep adding harsh criticism to people's work, regardless - i rather enjoy being the bad guy (hence the 'nemesis' part of my username), and if people notice that, yes, perhaps they should try & improve rather than thinking their cr4p is excellent, then I think the ends justifies the means - it was only through criticism that I improved.

I would welcome it with open arms, and mind. Blast away ;)

Quote -
The funny thing is I read more posts and messages where the person is asking for a hard and fast way to do something, wanting to be spoon fed information on "How To Do xxx" without taking the time to try to experiment and find what works for them.

Sometimes it is not even a matter of experimenting
But Simply LEARNING THE EXISTING FEATURES of the program.
Ive given up trying to  answer questions from people about poser animation because as soon as Mention the graph editor they fall silent and continue their endless search on the web for some free BVH files to make their figures magicly move  exactly the way they want.

While the mindless ooh's and ahh's are great for one's ego, it's the constructive criticism that helps us grow as artists and users of Poser.  I actually like it when someone shows me what I could do better to improve something, either technically or aesthetically.

I think a lot of it is your fans (or what we call your 'amen corner' down heah...;) I wind up in the strange position of thanking people, then saying 'no, it's really crap, but thanks' to my own work...;)

I've had my behind blistered by leaving an ambiguously-negative comment on a site or two in the past, then had my gallery 're-evaluated' in a nuclear fashion...;) So now, unless I can see what's wrong, and how to fix it...I'm more known as 'Pakled the 'great'...when it comes to comments...;)
Some people will even run for the Mods to retaliate, so I just don't bother with that kind of tsuris...;)

This community is the way it is, pretty gentle and nurturing. If you want critique and criticism post/read at conceptart.org or deviantart.

Welcome to the existance of the 'Suck-up Club'. :) Once, I checked the images of an entire
day, lots and LOTS of images posted in a day. One commenter posted the exact same
comment on EVERY pic posted that day. It's what they do. Cut'n'paste a single comment
on a hundred images, no matter what the image is of. And most members of the Club
don't participate on the forums either. Ego gratification is the only purpose of the Club.
Just ignore them. It's all you CAN do, really. ^_-

Eric

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=NoelCan

On the other (missing) hand,  there are Many individuals using the gallery as a social network.
Perhaps these people should be using chat instead..    That opens another door,  whenever I go into CHAT there is never anyone there..

If One wants comment One must comment,  seems to be an unwritten rule here at Renderosity..

Just went to "CHAT"..   One person there,  but does not respond when I "talk"...

Quote - I would give My left arm to get meaningful and constructive criticism,  I have had little formal arts training but I believe I can learn..

On the other (missing) hand,  there are Many individuals using the gallery as a social network.
Perhaps these people should be using chat instead..    That opens another door,  whenever I go into CHAT there is never anyone there..

If One wants comment One must comment,  seems to be an unwritten rule here at Renderosity..

Oh for the love of all that is holy, I see what you mean! You're getting the same comments for the WIPs as for the Finals regardless of any changes you've made! I didn't spot anything constructive. Remembering why I don't post often to the gallery here.

Since you asked for it....Lighting, lighting, lighting.....then there's the posing....then there's the inadequate blending of ground and background in most of the renders.....and don't be reluctant to engage in postwork, all the good artists are doing it.

I highly recommend Digital Lighting & Rendering, 2nd Edition by Jeremy Birn

Critically study the lighting and composition of pictures that you find appealing and figure out how to replicate the effect. Hell, COPY the piece exactly for your own benefit while learning then apply the techniques you discover to your own original works. Perfectly legit so long as you don't post the copy.

Most of the Andrew Loomis books on drawing are in the public domain now and are a very good source for instruction on pose dynamics. By reducing the subject to sketches you can more easily see how the pose balances then you can apply the knowledge to 3d poses.

Develop a consistency of style within any individual work then you can break the rules; think Picasso, Dali, Monet, Van Gogh for examples all highly skilled at "traditional" styles before creating their individual styles.

Render in passes then composite the results in an image editing program. This gives more control over your postwork options and simplifies blending the background into the render.

Also do not post an image "hot off the presses", wait a few days and look at it again....you'll nearly always see things that you could do better and if you don't....that's when you post it as a WIP for other people to critique. (somewhere that you can get an honest reply)

I'll want that arm properly preserved and mounted if you don't mind.:biggrin:

I don't do post work because I do not have the software..  Photoshop is way out of My price bracket.
Painter X by Corel is all I have..

I take on board all you have to say about lighting,  but,  like i said above My Post work facilities are limited to say the least..

The arm will go to the Most constructive post that points Me in the right direction  (Like this one)..

BTW if I stroke Your ego enough,  do You PURRRRR??

Noelclan you never ear something like Gimp or Paint.net ?

Quote - Noelclan you never ear something like Gimp or Paint.net ?

No!  But I will look..

I do consider it to be appropriate to do all of the work in Poser..  After all is this not what poser is for?
I have read pros and cons about this in other threads..

I leave a comment when I see an image I really like and I try to avoid saying things like "WOW!!" or "Excellent" but I usually end up using both those words ;) But I do try to say what it is I like.

I've learned that when doing constructive criticism, it's good to leave it in a form of question like: "Have you thought about placing your character slightly to the left or right instead of smack in the middle?" or "Have you thought about turning on shadows on your lights?" ;)  These examples are meant as a joke but you know what I mean.

There's nothing wrong with postwork. In a way I'd say there's something wrong with never attempting it. Personally I love when a render comes out of Poser just like I wanted it, but that happens all too rarely - so I postwork it to get the desired result. Postwork can also be adding a frame, like the recent Motivational Poser I made.

The only thing is: Be upfront with it if you've postworked an image into oblivion. I'øveseen awesome examples of painted hair and -clothes - but then say so, so people don't think erroneously that it's something you can achieve IN Poser alone.

The "drive-by" commenters.. well.. I can't really take that seriously. If you paste the same comment on each and every image, it loses all validity and you end up making a fool of yourself.

THEN AGAIN - if the same comment is posted on some images, it might be someone whose native language is something other than English. Just like the feedback on eBay, it's mostly rather cookie-cutter in form.

Also, while I agree fully that no picture with missing shadows and vacant stares is a nuisance, it COULD just be someone trying to be ironic/satirical about the "genre" - I have yet to make a NVIATWAS-pic that ISN'T very much tongue in cheek. Some may post those pathetic renders just to prove a fact (that if it's a scantily clad woman with large bewbies - it WILL generate both clicks and comments)

Personally, I LIVE for comments. It's the reason I post my pics at all. If I didn't care about comments I culd just as well let the pictures sit quietly on my harddisk. But I prefer honest ones. 

Quote - Just went to "CHAT"..   One person there,  but does not respond when I "talk"...

I've taken a look at your gallery, renderings look quite good.  Just wondering if you have experimented with both IDL and IBL and what you did to create your IBL.  I made the mistake of simply clicking on IBL and that is not enough, one has to do part duo too.  haven't tried the Inverse square law function yet.  Don't know how much of a realistic effect it has unless you are working at astronomical unit levels (1 AU equals 93 million miles).  Jan 

it's necessary to have galleries associated with these poser marketplaces where users are encouraged to post poser renders (and viewers are encouraged to post comments of uncritical praise), otherwise there would be no incentive for casual users to purchase products for use in poser.  it may also apply to other software with a large number of third-party merchandise.

Working close up with inverse square is really great.. It is really meant for closer use.
e.g.  If a light is 10 feet away You have 100% of the light..
           At 20 feet the light reaching the object is reduced to 25%

THAT IS A VERY BASIC IDEA..

Thanks for looking..

When I post, and I admit I haven't posted many images here recently, I get a lot of lookie-loos but only a few comments. On another subject, I wish that Renderosity had a water-marking system like Deviant Art has.

I'm one of those people who don't take criticism well. If you put a "complement" but "suggestion" comment I'll probably be hurt. (even though I don't believe you mean to hurt me and it's nothing personal) So I just don't post much and brace myself when I do.  And when I do post I consider  suggestions.

I think most people who don't take criticism well are like me and avoid posting so if people are polite and don't just totally tear down someone's work I doubt you have to worry about crushing their desires to make art.

Quote - Working close up with inverse square is really great.. It is really meant for closer use.
e.g.  If a light is 10 feet away You have 100% of the light..
           At 20 feet the light reaching the object is reduced to 25%

THAT IS A VERY BASIC IDEA..

Thanks for looking..

--may give it a try--as soon as I get me IDL and IBL balance working the way I want.  I'm now working on reducing the rendering time--One good start is to shut down the computer, get a cup of Cnoffee, come back turn it on, load Poser, the scene and render.  Jan

""-may give it a try--as soon as I get me IDL and IBL balance working the way I want.  I'm now working on reducing the rendering time--One good start is to shut down the computer, get a cup of Cnoffee, come back turn it on, load Poser, the scene and render.  Jan""

It does get better..    We are moving OT here..

On the other side of the coin, I don't comment unless something really blows me away ... and when that is the case I usually end up saying something like "OMG that is amazing!"  If I post a render I don't expect comments, I just post because I enjoy it.

What turns my head in an image?  Great attempts at realism get my attention every time.  Great use of postwork that shows an artist's individuality.  Dramatic lighting.  Things that are well done and out of the ordinary. 

And ... I can understand how sometimes criticism can be harsh ... but if someone offers a suggestion they are doing it to help you improve. There is a difference between someone saying "That render is pure crap" and "You know, next time you might want to add an extra light behind the character to pull them away from the background." One is insulting, and the other is helpful.

Without constructive criticism and suggestions, I think it's pretty tough to grow as an artist. 8-)

Quote - I don't do post work because I do not have the software..  Photoshop is way out of My price bracket.
Painter X by Corel is all I have..

I take on board all you have to say about lighting,  but,  like i said above My Post work facilities are limited to say the least..

Corel painter X works quite well for post work and The GIMP is getting very close to Photoshop in available features.

Photoshop Elements 8 is currently $80 US and does pretty much anything you would need in the area of postwork. Elements 6 or 7 should be available for less at electronics stores, both are still viable.

Quote -
The arm will go to the Most constructive post that points Me in the right direction  (Like this one)..

Always a catch to any offer.:lol:

Quote -
BTW if I stroke Your ego enough,  do You PURRRRR??

More likely to snarl, touch my ego and you're likely to draw back a nub instead of a hand!:lol:

I don't know that you should be that bothered about not doing postwork (or not having Photoshop) - some people swear by it, I often don't even bother. 

In this image (watch out, there's BEWBS in this pic!*)  http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1954585&user_id=629786&np&np I spent absolutely ages working on the lighting (there's 3 spots above her and six point lights around her sides) and the sweaty skin look - postwork... I think I probably upped the contrast a little, and darkened the area around her eyes, but that was it.

All I'm saying is it's not necessarily the postwork that'll help you make a good pic.

Hey... I'm hijacking my own thread! What can be done about the sycophants, eh? We need some direct action!

*Oh, FYI I deleted the rest of my gallery (and freestuff) off Renderosity because of the heavy-handed attitude of the mods.

Quote -
Hey... I'm hijacking my own thread! What can be done about the sycophants, eh? We need some direct action!

Figured I'd get my comment in before this thread gets locked for "not being productive", or "before it gets worse"...

I just deleted several long paragraphs that I had written, but after I read it back I realized I had already written the same things many times over the years, and so have a lot of others. Horse beating and all that.
But...

They have a limit for how many images people can upload per day, and I think they also ought to have a limit for how many gallery comments a person may make per day. That could cut back on the vacuous blathering and sycophantic fawning considerably.
Some might say, that that would also cut back on the "helpful" comments, but I don't think most people who post in the Poser gallery really want that. They can get better and more honest feedback in a forum thread.

Oops, there I go, reaching for the horse-beating stick, like some kind of reflex action. Better end this now. ;-)

Attached Link: My Gallery

Thanks to the members who took the time to look, and offer advice..

Postwork isn't a must at all. If you're good at it, you can achieve some great details and lighting. On the other hand, if you know Poser well and know how to set up lights well, you can achieve great results without the need to postwork.

There seem to be a good number of people who don't really know how to use Poser, but are great at doing postwork, they achieve the same as someone who is very good at using Poser, but isn;t good at doing postwork at all.

I don't always do postwork, often I don't. But at times there are effects Poser cannot achieve or there are some minor errors and then I do postwork. When I'm working with specific lights, like candles, I do find postworking those lights very beneficial. It adds light effects much better then Poser does.

Pissing in a violin ... Sure at this time many peoples have send a "good" or "great" on a thing who have no name and who P4 will be better lol !

Follow the gallery is there many, carrefull ! i dont say my gallery is perfect, so far, i prefer a constructive critic against a "good" to make pleasure ...

I dont know how to translate this ... ' c'est en faisant des erreurs qu'on apprend "

Quote- "Pissing in a violin ..."

Oh how I hate that Phrase...  IMO it is an insult.. Nevertheless so many others use it..  I must not show My age or let morality influence My opinions..