Nice one - I like the composition & perspective.

HDRI seems to render faster than Vue atmospheres as well. The only problem is finding one that matches your render idea. From the samples I've seen, Dosch has some really excellent ones but definitely not free.

C8P sounds promising indeed. I'm using Vue 6, so I don't even know what improvements they've made in their version 8. There's an unlimited (watermarked) demo, but still too much I need to learn about Vue 6 (and C6P as well obviously).

if you have Vue, you can always make your own HDRs :)

*"f you have Vue, you can always make your own HDRs :)" *

I was going to  mention that. I found a tutorial on rendering a panorama and saving as .hdr. Someone commented though:

"First off many people misunderstand what a HDR image really is. HDRI's really require multiple exposures at different light levels to build the High Dynamic Range into the resulting image. You could do this in Vue by making numerous different renders with different lighting to get the wide range of intensities require to build a real hdri image. This causes detail in even the brightest highlights and in the darkest shadows where details would be either is lost in totally white areas or in totally black areas. You cannot make a true HDRI in one render.."

My very meager understanding of HDRI supports that. Whether you save in .hdr format or not, a true HDRI image is the result of multiple exposures - or so I thought. If Vue can simulate multiple exposure renders then to me it would make more sense to save them as LDR format and use HDRShop to combine them into a true HDR image. Any info to the contrary would be much appreciated. I did try the panorama->hdr technique but the result did not produce "real" HDR like lighting when used in a render.

So, do you know how to do multiple exposures? I'm guessing the procedure would be fairly portable to Carrara or other renderers.

I'd have to have a dig through the Vue manual and have a look I think.  Looking at it logically, the reason you'd have to use multiple exposures with a camera is because the CCD/Film have a finite dynamic range and the only way to expand that is with the multiple exposures. 
CG apps don't suffer from that particular problem - I'd imagine that a .hdr image from Vue would contain a much wider dynamic range than an equivalent photo, especially if you are telling Vue that you want to render out a HDR image so it wouldn't compress the highlights/shadows.

Of course - I could be totally wrong here.  Only experimentation is going to tell for sure (and might possibly lead to a rash of new marketplace products if I ever figure it out! )

You can make an hdr from one exposure by making copies and adjusting the luminence curve in Photoshop of each copy and then tricking Photoshop when exporting the hdr by using different shutter speeds in the settings you manually adjust. Mark Bremmer has a video tutorial showing how - google it.

Kevin

Thanks to you both - definitely an area for exploration.

I did find this on http://www.hdrlabs.com:

"Set up your Vue6 scenes as desired, go to your render settings and turn on the tick box for 360-degree render and the tick box for spherical render (180-degrees vertical). Make sure you “keep camera level” is turned on and after rendering (but before saving) be SURE TO TURN OFF the tick box for “Natural Film Response”. Otherwise, your highlights and shadows (in the extreme darks and light areas) will get clipped when you save. Images are all rendered out at 32-bits… so once you do a render, just do a “Save as…” choose the HDR format instead of JPG or TIFF and that is all you need to do!"

I don't think the hilighted point was made in the tutorial I used so that may be the critical element. Even if this is the key for Vue, I'd seen references to using PhotoShop to simulate multiple exposures. It seems like that might enable you do HDRI with Poser or other apps.

 Geep - couldn't agree more, lol, the perfect example of the time-honored art of yanking an entire groups' chain...with the following proviso...

Poser software has been in bad need of clean-up for ages. I like the program, I've learned to live with its foibles, but I still swear at it on a regular basis. Like virtually all 3D softwares out there, there are way too many things that have been left uncorrected and unimproved while jamming it/them full of still new "features." 

As for C4D, I bought R9 4-1/2 years ago, the top of the line version, for approx. $3000. Now it would cost me $3000 to upgrade to R11. I don't have that kind of pocket change, lol. And for "professional" software C4D's documentation is as lacking as any I've seen from Hash, trueSpace, Bryce, or Poser. I was reading just yesterday in the Carrara forum, and they seem to have their own collection of software issues.

As for more professional software doing this? The ability to handle Poser content (or D/S for that matter) is only part of the issue ... apparently no else's software does all the things that Poser does. Contrary, there are things I can do in Bryce and Vue that Poser can't touch; I've never seen a better solid modeler than C4D's and it's got a billion little piece-of-crud errors in it.  The sculpture-based modelers are supposed to be wonderful, but I am always reading about the end results being converted to .OBJ and being shipped to a better renderer or someplace/something else for this-that-or-the-other final touch up.

I don't think there's a perfect 3D software in existence ... Guess I will just have to win the lottery and try them all.

Attached Link: Here's a trip down memory lane for ya ... ;=]

Quote - ... I don't think there's a perfect 3D software in existence ... Guess I will just have to win the lottery and try them all.

I agree. :lol:

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

P.S. BUT ... I have had more fun with Poser (since day 1) than any other software ever and it has been worth every penny I paid for it.  I don't know what I did with Poser(1) but I still have P2, P3, P4, P5, P6, P7, and P8 with P6, 7, and 8 currently installed.

Doctor Geep you are hilarious.

I think Poser 8 is actually quite fantastic.  Its indirect lighting actually does what it does quite fast compared to, say, cinema 4d; 3DS Max; Cinema 4d; Maya; Carrara, and especially Vue.  I have tried them all.  MUCH slower.  Modo on the other hand...  and from what I hear, what is it, Hypershade?  Those are some screaming beasts, but for what it costs and what it brings to the table, Poser is pretty fantastic.

Does anyone but me remember a discussion on here with some fellow proposing an alternative to Poser... said he was going to write it himself. Was it 2 or 3 years ago?

Wonder whatever happened to that.

Apparently he's been so busy working on that project that he couldn't find time to post anything here since June 2008. I'm expecting to see the first alpha version any day now.

(Kidding!)

And I was so looking forward to that, too! (not kidding) Oh well, I guess every silver lining has a cloud...

I thought he sounded way too optimistic to be credible.

And I'm incredibly gullible and naive. Good job I don't live in Antarctica or I'd have more refrigerators than I'd know what to do with. And togs: gotta have those togs for when the ice finishes melting...

Hmm, I happen to be in the business of selling drop bear insurance. Interested?

 i don't use poser every day but i'd sure be lost without it

One of Poser 8's biggest promises is the changing of the GUI.  A lot of the rant in the OP can be credited to outdated GUI and hopefully Poser Pro 2010 introduces even more changes.  Poser doesn't work as "traditional" 3D apps mostly because of this faulty GUI.  I almost never drag things in the viewports as I might in other apps.  It just doesn't work.  But I've been using Poser since P4 so I'm quite used to dial spinning.

I've tried importing Poser character into other high end apps and while the rendering may be faster you'll be surprised at how difficult it is for these apps to handle all those polys when reposing your figures AND to get a good skin texture you'll have to use some pretty complicated materials that really slows down your render time.

Poser has limitations. Get used to them or go mad!

I've tried several alternatives to Poser (C4D, 3DMax, Daz Studio and Vue) and I've always gone back to the real thing.   So spend your money on alternatives but keep your Poser license close when it's time to upgrade to it's newest version ;)

Quote - Hmm, I happen to be in the business of selling drop bear insurance. Interested?

"Drop bear"... can't recall what that is but I'm pretty sure its an Oz thing. Might pass this time, thanks for stopping by... :biggrin:

For me, the old Poser is fine for the types of simple illustrations I do. On occasion they please me and the few people I share them with so what more could I want. On the rare occasions when I want to play with something more ambitious, I fire up Vue, Kerkythea or even my ancient copy of Max 3/Brazil. Poser does a fine job of providing the base figures and then I can learn a bit at a time about things that are not necessarily better or more professional than Poser (the proverbial  needless competition) just different. IMO, it's always good to broaden ones horizons.

I have Poaer 2 thru Poser Pro (7). I've always enjoyed using Poser, I find it quite easy to use. Figure and content support is much better in Poser than any other application. It has dynamic cloth and dynamic hair. Very impressive for the price. I've just never been able to get the same quality/speed rendering in Poser as with Carrara (originally started rendering Poser content in C4D with Poser 4/Pro Pak). Just a quick look at the gallery here shows that Poser can produce some outstanding renders, I've just never been able to get great results myself. But from what people have said here, maybe it's time to give Poser 8 a try.

A quick look at all 15 images in my gallery (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=DustRider) shows my lack of ability to render in Poser vs. Carrara and DS3A. I'm sure if I worked at it long enough, I would get better results in Poser, but my "3D free ttime" is very limited due to my current job(s), so I just take the easy way out and use what I know. I was very impressed with how easy it is to set up lighting in DS3A using either the included UberEnvironment, or LightDome 2 Pro. The IBL in Poser 6 and Pro is not as simple to use.

IMHO, there are several quality alternatives to Poser - But there is not a true repalcement for Poser. I use Carrara because it fits into both working with Poser content, and doing other things in 3D that go beyond what Poser can do. I got DS3A because it is a true 64bit application, which for me is a big plus. It does a few things better than Poser, yet is missing some of the nice features of Poser (dynamic clothing that the user can create and dynamic hair for example), and unlike Carrara, DS3A has many of the limitations of Poser.

I think it all goes back to what your comfortable with, and how your brian is wired. I've seen many posts where other people find the Carrara and the DS3A interface difficult to use, and lighting diffucult to set up, yet I find ithem fairly easy to use and achieve the results I want (in a relative sense or course).

"I think it all goes back to what your comfortable with, and how your brian is wired." 

 I don't think that can be emphasized enough. 3d is not word processing. People may quibble about the benefits of MS Office vs Open Office or Mac vs PC for that matter but after a bit of use most can be reasonably productive and comfortable in any of them. 3D does IMO come down a lot to how your brain is wired. The strong likes and dislikes are simply too intense to be explained by the relatively small differences in GUI or metaphor. People might complain a bit about finding the 'X' key on a normal productivity application but the same situation on a 3d app has them throwing up their hands and declaring it unusable. That's why it's impossible to answer the constant requests for the "Best" application. If what everyone else considers the lowliest piece of crap works for you that that is the best application of all.

"A drop bear (or dropbear) is a fictitious[1] Australian marsupial. Drop bears are commonly said to be unusually large, vicious, carnivorous koalas that inhabit treetops and attack their prey by dropping onto their heads from above.[2]

They are an example of local lore intended to frighten and confuse outsiders and amuse locals, similar to the jackalope, hoop snake, wild haggis or a snipe hunt.

It is often suggested that doing ridiculous things like having forks in the hair or Vegemite or toothpaste spread behind the ears will deter the creatures.[3]

Another suggestion is to walk through the bush carrying a screwdriver raised above one's head in the hope of impaling the attacking drop bear." Wikipedia
 

I think most people just sarting out in 3D really under estimate how complex is is, and the associated learning curve. So take the basic complexity of even the simpler 3D applications, then add to that the great diffences in UI and work flow from one app to another, with the logic behind those two factors, it's pretty easy to understand why some software just doesn't "click" with the way you think.

Then, if that isn't bad enough, add in the requirements and complexities associated with software/hardware issues related to working in 3D, and things can get ugly quite quickly.

I'm not real sure what the true issues were that the OP had with Poser, but all of the above no doubt added to the frustration of using Poser.

For those who may be interested in Carrara, I've been playing with the 64bit version of the C8 beta, and am quite pleased with it. I have experienced a few crashes (actually, the entire system freezes requiring a hard reboot), but I'm fairly sure this is a video card/OpenGL issue. Unfortunately I haven't been able to upgrade the video drivers on my system (laptop). But, aside from the freezing issue, performance is much better than C7. I completed the render at the link below, set to max quality, at 1800X1400 in just over 1.5 hours. I can't use the same setup in C7 to compare, because I did everything in C8, but from experience with C7, I was expecting the render to take 4-5 hours. I also seems like it's doing a better job of importing materials, though you still have to make quite a few adjustments. It looks like it will be a big improvement, and well worth the upgrade.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2023770

and at the opposite end, what happens when you take a rubber duckie and start playing with Vue's instancing having no idea wtf you're doing. Lucky it was at the lowest preview setting or I'd probably still be picking up pieces of smoking circuit board.

and at the opposite end, what happens when you take a rubber duckie and start playing with Vue's instancing having no idea wtf you're doing. Lucky it was at the lowest preview setting or I'd probably still be picking up pieces of smoking circuit board.

In general i find Daz much better than Poser... but just like Poser, Daz has limitations as well... and having seen the rants about probs with Daz 3 i've stayed with Daz 2.5... what i find with Daz is that it's much more forgiving than Poser... things that Poser won't load properly or that appear screwed up will load fine in daz and often render much better... plus Daz doesn't care so much about normals being flipped and other annoyances like that which poser has big issues with...  but that's just my opinion... having tried both programs i settled on daz as my program of choice...i found it easier to use, better organised and more user friendly (specially for beginners) but others will prefer or recommend other programs... such is the way of things... lol 

I've used the V4 Elite shaders for Carrara, and the results can be quite nice, but you usually have to make minor adjustments for the lighting in your scene. SSS in C is good, but can't be controled with a map, so it's not as useful as it could be. From what I've seen, SkinVue seems to be easier to get great results with in Vue. The skin shaders designed for DAZ Studio seem to work fairly well in Carrara, often with very little modification. Poser specific shaders (P5 of greater) almost always need to be adjusted. The link below is to an image I did using a Carrara V4 Elite shader, as I recall, I did use SSS in this image.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1792677
Vues replicator has some nice options that Carraras doesn't have as well.

I have to admit that I like the interface in DS better than Poser too, but both are easy to use, and they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

From the renders I've seen: Carrara is capable of nicer landscape renders. But what passes for "advanced" renders of people... sorry.

And the interface is completely beyond me. Nothing makes sense to me in Carrara.

The main advantage of DAZ Studio that I can't deny is simply that it plays nicer with DAZ figures - morphing V4 can lead to anomalous lines and other artifacts in Poser that just don't show up in DS. But beyond that, I just don't try to compare. My initial experience with DS was that I wasn't able to get things rendered, so I gave up early and switched to Poser, so my internal wiring is all Poserized now.

Quote - I think the software is a huge pile of shit. 

Hey dude, don t be shy
Say what s on your mind...

I've found Daz plays nicer with most things.... about 90% of my content was actually written for Poser rather than for Daz itself... lol... Daz is also more forgiving than Poser about bad filenames or added symbols in files than poser ... which i've been learning the hard way while working on my free stuff... things that worked fine in daz won't load at all in poser... (mind you i finnally found what it was i was messing up to cause the probs and can create fully function poser items without ever using poser for any of it) and i've found that stuff that poser wouldn't load if you paid it to will load in daz just fine... but again.. i like Daz and have spent 3 years learning it so far and am starting to truely understand it's potential so like some of you i'm kinda Daz-rigged mentally where others have been "poserized"... lmao

Quote - "I think it all goes back to what your comfortable with, and how your brian is wired." 
.

I dunno.. how is your Brian wired....?

I'm not sure how my brian is wired, but I'm pretty confident that the wiring is faulty :-)

Quote - I'm not sure how my brian is wired, but I'm pretty confident that the wiring is faulty :-)

Typo of the week!  :lol:

Poor Brian.  

lol ....See ..... I knew it was faulty!!!

 a...a...troll!  lol

But seriously,  i have tried Poser 2,4,PP,5,6,7. Lightwave, Carrera, Vue, Bryce, RayDream, Infini-D, DazStudio, and Shade.  And imho for what Poser tries to do, it does better and quicker than any other. Sure it's sometimes buggy, and you can find another app that does "x" better than Poser does. But taking the sum of what it does, nothing else compares. 'Sides where did you get the idea Poser thinks it's a pro app ?

otherwise, what Phantom said on the first page.

I couldn't agree more.
If you think Carrara is counter intuitive, give 3DS Max a fling.
I believe one of Poser's greatest strengths is its user friendly control interface. For whatever my opinion is worth, it is the standard other program designers should follow.

Quote - From the renders I've seen: Carrara is capable of nicer landscape renders. But what passes for "advanced" renders of people... sorry.

And the interface is completely beyond me. Nothing makes sense to me in Carrara.

The main advantage of DAZ Studio that I can't deny is simply that it plays nicer with DAZ figures - morphing V4 can lead to anomalous lines and other artifacts in Poser that just don't show up in DS. But beyond that, I just don't try to compare. My initial experience with DS was that I wasn't able to get things rendered, so I gave up early and switched to Poser, so my internal wiring is all Poserized now.

Poser is definitely one of the best buys in 3D, both for usability and for features. with the exception of Blender which is free, but has a huge learning curve! Where else can you get Dynamic Cloth and Dynamic Hair for such an affordable price, plus tons of affordable content. Have you ever checked on the price for content developed for 3d Studio Max? Ouch!!!! 

DS3 is getting closer to Poser, but not quite there yet. I'm hoping there are some nice improvements to 64bit support in Poser Pro 2010. Finally got it downloaded, and hopefully will get a chance to test it over the weekend. Maybe I'll stick with it long enough to get a decent render out of it instead of falling back on Carrara.