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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 09 3:46 am)
Subject: Antonia - conforming clothing
Quote - From Cage:
I think Ian Porter has been having difficulties similar to your own, with development of his shorts. I'm rather amazed that mine worked, now. :lol: Poser has the gremlins, and they come out when JCM's are being developed, I've found. :lol:
Yes, I think our problem is very similar. I know the reason why Cage's shorts work well, it is because the mesh is almost exactly the same as Antonia's hip2. I even apply the same technique I used to make mine on his Antonia_Shorts.obj to confirm if I'm doing the right thing. I confirmed that my process works but my mesh is not as easy to conform as Cage's.
I'm having another idea for mine to work with Thigh Kick from -105 to 45. Since there is no poke through from -60 to 0, if it is possible to make the JCM for each range of values, in my case, -105 to -60, -60 to 0, and 0 to 45, it may work. I'm still trying to figure out how to do that.
Quote - I am seeing DeJeVu... Can anyone say "Clark?"
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2753785
LOL. This hasn't got the least thing to do with Clark or anything that you're thinking. Please read the Antonia thread (or at least the last few pages, which are relevant to amy_aimei's question) so that you will know what this is about.
amy_aimei: From your last coment I surmise you are trying to create something like odf's cascading JCM's. That process would allow you to be able to have the morph kick in when ever you wish it to. Odf may post the process for you, I dont know it, but if I understand this is the process you are looking for.
Quote - ROFL.
I knew what the thread related to.
The Clark reference is just an observation on my part, having watched a number of new characters come to the marketplace. I'm just being a wag. Feel free to completely ignore me!
:)
congratulations. I thought we were going to have a flamewar about copying figures. thanks for the laugh.. we all needed that...
And the pitchfork people are???? Sorry, you can colour me a bit thick... a hint will do. :biggrin:
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Sorry, I wasn't trying to incite a riot. Just curious.
Guess I'll find out who the pitchfork people are eventually... 
Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]
Attached Link: Cascading JCMs explained (-ish)
Here's a link to my original (I think) explanation of the cascading JCMs (scroll down to the long post with the table).First of all, I should note that I wasn't the first who came up with this technique. It's probably been re-invented over and over again through the years. Also, Antonia's knee has only 2 levels of JCMs now instead of 3, since I decided in favour of simplicity over accuracy.
If you can do ERC and you can do JCMs, you should be able to get this going. Let me know if there's anything that needs more 'splaining.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Attached Link: Antonia on CG Talk
Just a little something for prospective pitchfork people to consider. Note the date of the original post. :laugh:-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Quote - > Quote - From Cage:
I think Ian Porter has been having difficulties similar to your own, with development of his shorts. I'm rather amazed that mine worked, now. :lol: Poser has the gremlins, and they come out when JCM's are being developed, I've found. :lol:
Yes, I think our problem is very similar. I know the reason why Cage's shorts work well, it is because the mesh is almost exactly the same as Antonia's hip2. I even apply the same technique I used to make mine on his Antonia_Shorts.obj to confirm if I'm doing the right thing. I confirmed that my process works but my mesh is not as easy to conform as Cage's.
I'm having another idea for mine to work with Thigh Kick from -105 to 45. Since there is no poke through from -60 to 0, if it is possible to make the JCM for each range of values, in my case, -105 to -60, -60 to 0, and 0 to 45, it may work. I'm still trying to figure out how to do that.
Oh! Sorry I'm coming to this late. I've been busy with Python.
Can you show the grouping of your hip2, and maybe some images of how they fit up to -60?
Adding a secondary JCM isn't a bad idea. But I'm really puzzled about why mine worked and others are having problems. 
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
As odf suggested, I read about his explanation of the cascading JCM. I tried to apply it, but I'm not sure if I did the right thing because mine has 2 directions.
angle A B C<br></br>
45 1 0 0<br></br>
0 0 0 0 <br></br>
-60 1 1 0<br></br>
-105 1 1 1<br></br>
A: From 0 to 45, which means when A increase by 1.0, the angle increase by 45, therefore deltaAddDelta is 1.0 / 45 = 0.022222.
B: From 0 to -60, which means when B increase by 1.0, the angle decrease by 60, therefore deltaAddDelta is 1.0 / -60 = -0.016667.
C: From -60 to -105, which means when C increase by 1.0, the angle decrease by 45, therefore deltaAddDelta is 1.0 / -45 = -0.022222.
If C start at 0, at -60, the value will be -1.333333, therefore set the "one" channel to have deltaAddDelta 1.333333.
The ERC I made as follow:
A is JCM-lThighKickBackward; B is JCM-lThighKickForward1; and C is JCM-lThighKickForward2.
targetGeom
JCM-lThighKickBackward<br></br>
{<br></br>
name
JCM-lThighKickBack<br></br>
initValue
0<br></br>
hidden
1<br></br>
forceLimits 1<br></br>
min 0<br></br>
max 1<br></br>
trackingScale 0.01<br></br>
keys<br></br>
{<br></br>
static 0<br></br>
k 0 0<br></br>
}<br></br>
interpStyleLocked 0<br></br>
valueOpDeltaAdd<br></br>
Figure<br></br>
lThigh<br></br>
xrot<br></br>
deltaAddDelta 0.022222<br></br>
}<br></br><br></br>
targetGeom
JCM-lThighKickForward1<br></br>
{<br></br>
name
JCM-lThighKickForward1<br></br>
initValue
0<br></br>
hidden
1<br></br>
forceLimits 1<br></br>
min 0<br></br>
max 1<br></br>
trackingScale 0.01<br></br>
keys<br></br>
{<br></br>
static 0<br></br>
k 0 0<br></br>
}<br></br>
interpStyleLocked 0<br></br>
valueOpDeltaAdd<br></br>
Figure<br></br>
lThigh<br></br>
xrot<br></br>
deltaAddDelta -0.016667<br></br>
}<br></br><br></br>
targetGeom
JCM-lThighKickForward2<br></br>
{<br></br>
name
JCM-lThighKickForward2<br></br>
initValue
0<br></br>
hidden
1<br></br>
forceLimits 1<br></br>
min 0<br></br>
max 1<br></br>
trackingScale 0.01<br></br>
keys<br></br>
{<br></br>
static 0<br></br>
k 0 0<br></br>
}<br></br>
interpStyleLocked 0<br></br>
valueOpDeltaAdd<br></br>
Figure<br></br>
BODY<br></br>
One<br></br>
deltaAddDelta 1.333333
<br></br>
valueOpDeltaAdd<br></br>
Figure<br></br>
lThigh<br></br>
xrot<br></br>
deltaAddDelta -0.022222<br></br>
}<br></br><br></br>
Quote - Is Antonia an original figure? where is she available?
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2753785
Here is the URL for the main Antonia thread.
The download link for the latest release is in odf's signature (above one this page). Odf is the creator of Antonia. A new version was just released yesterday, in fact. :D
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
Quote - Hi Cage,
I'm finding a place to host my WIP. I think it is easier if you can get my OBJ file. In fact, the one I made suppose to be simpler than yours, only one group, which is hip2. Are you using any script to generate your JCM's or they are done by hand?
Regards,
Amy
I used Morphing Clothes, by Dimension 3D (available in the Renderosity Marketplace), to transfer the JCM's and FBM's from Antonia to my figure. I believe Ian has been doing the same thing. I found the transfers to work well, although the transferred JCM's still needed to be cleaned up a bit to account for the changes from Antonia's mesh that I made when I adapted it. So I primarily used a script to generate them, but some work was by hand.
One group could be simpler, if your shorts don't overlap hip or the thighs too much. It doesn't look like that's causing any trouble though, as far as I can tell from the images you've posted.
I'll be happy to look at your OBJ and/or your figure, if you like. I'll PM you with contact information.
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
Quote - Just a little something for prospective pitchfork people to consider. Note the date of the original post. :laugh:
Holy cow! Antonia must be over four years old already. :ohmy: I never realized that.
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
Ahh a new thread for Antonia clothes.
Having returned from trip I have been doing some more experimenting to try to work out why I had such difficulty with my shorts. I see Amy is having similar problems and working on cascading jcm to solve them and I hope that will be a solution. If I can help with that I will be happy to. The pictures Amy posted look very similar to the problems I had/have.
I have shrink fitted my shorts onto Antonia in the cloth room and tried using the resulting close fitting mesh, and they certainly seem to take the morphs transferred from Antiona, with Morphing Clothes, a lot better and not tear so much when bending. I can use a morph target to then expand them to the less skin tight shape I want. This was all something Cage suggested in the main Antonia thread and it works well.
I am going to simplify the mesh of the shorts, partly because I ended up with a lot of small polygons around the hems, and that is making morph creation just more fiddly. I see Fennja made a texture for the shorts so I am going to do my best to keep the texture map the same.
Cheers
Ian
Quote -
A: From 0 to 45, which means when A increase by 1.0, the angle increase by 45, therefore deltaAddDelta is 1.0 / 45 = 0.022222.
B: From 0 to -60, which means when B increase by 1.0, the angle decrease by 60, therefore deltaAddDelta is 1.0 / -60 = -0.016667.
C: From -60 to -105, which means when C increase by 1.0, the angle decrease by 45, therefore deltaAddDelta is 1.0 / -45 = -0.022222.
If C start at 0, at -60, the value will be -1.333333, therefore set the "one" channel to have deltaAddDelta 1.333333.
That looks correct to me, except for the sign in the last bit, because -0.022222 * -60 = 1.333333, not -1.333333. So you'd have to set your deltaAddDelta to -1.333333 for the "one" channel instead of 1.333333.
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Hi,
I created a temporary material for a thin band of polygons around the waist and hems and then, in the cloth room, I set this as a constrained group. This held the mesh up whilst the shrink fitting simulation ran.
In more detail:
I use Wings3D where I can so this workflow is for Wings and Poser and Wordpad
1/
Since my shorts mesh has groups I opened the mesh in Wordpad and replaced the "g " entries with "usemtl " statements, so "g hip2" became "usemtl hip2" and so on, and then saved this as "nogroups.obj".
2/
I imported "nogroups.obj" into Wingsand created a new material in Wings called "constrained" the name is not important but it helps me to remember what it was for if I use the model again in six months ;-)
3/
Still in Wings I selected an polygon edge on the waist, and on the hems and used 'edge loop' to have Wings extend that to to a circle of edges on the waist and hems.
4/
In wings I then selected polygon mode, so my loops of edges became bands of polygons.
5/
In Wings I selected material and assigned my new "contrained" material from 2 above, to these selected polygons.
6/
I selected the whole mesh and scaled it down to 50% in both X and Z. This is so that it will be smaller than its final size and an expanding Antonia will fill it out. I didnt scale it down in the Y direction because I think that would give a 'camel toe' effect that I didn't want. 50% was just a guess by the way and an easy number to work with.
7/
I exported the mesh from Wings and Into Poser as a prop, giving it a new name
8/
I loaded Antonia and reduced her down to 50% in the X and Z directions and saved a keyframe.
9/
I expanded Antiona to full size and saved another keyframe, I think this was about keyframe 11.
10/
Off into Posers clothroom and I clothified the shorts and set them to collide agains Antonias hip2 and Thighs. I also set the 'Offset' to almost zero since I wanted the shorts to shrink fit really close to Antonia's mesh.
11/
I selected material in constrained groups, and then selected the "constrained" material I had created earlier in Wings. The polygons in the constrained group will stick like glue and hold the mesh up through the simulation.
12/
I ran the simulation and Antonia nicely expanded and stretched the shorts to skin tight fit.
13/
I exported the shorts from Poser, but now I needed to get rid of the "constrained" material and restore the groups .... so back into Wings.
14/
In Wings I selected the "constrained" material in the waist and changed to "hip2" material ( you recall I changed my groups into materials in step 1 ). I also selected the "constrained" material in the hems and changed them to rThigh and lThigh respectively. This is easier if you change the colour of the "constrained" material in Wings to something bright, so you can easily see which polygons have that material.
15/
I exported the mesh from Wings and into Wordpad, and then replaced the "usemtl " statements with "g " statements, and that restored my groups. Note that Wings may also have created groups from the materials itself, but these can be deleted without harm.
Phew
Finally we should have a skin tight version of the mesh which has the original vertex order and retains the original texture mapping.
Sorry if that is a bit drawn out but I thought it might be useful. I use the switch between group and material quite a lot with Wings because Wings seems to cut up meshes which have groups. Of course it can get complicated if you have material zones in your mesh as well as groups, but I didn't have any material zones in my original mesh.
Cheers
Ian
I hope I described the workflow above clearly. I would suggest trying it on some simple meshes before doing complicated stuff. If you do a mesh with one group you can ignore all that messy converting groups to materials and back. You can define your constrained group inside the clothroom but I find that very messy.
One thing I didn't mention is that the polygons which you use as the constrained group really need to be in their correct position, with regard to Antonia ( or whatever you are shrinking onto) since they will stick in place. I'ts one of those things that is easier to do than to describe, so like I said, try a few simple shrink fits
If you do try it, and have any problems, please let me know and I will try to answer. I'm sure there are other ways to achieve the same end result.
Cheers
Ian
odf, thank you for correcting my mistake. The timing is good! I just want to start that section.
I just posted my WIP at http://sites.google.com/site/amyaimei/antonia, the file is Test.zip. It is far from complete, it has the JCM's for lThigh kick from -60 to 45 degree. I think cascading JCM will work! I noticed that there is a major poke through around 30 degree. I think odf made the morph in 30 degree increments, is it the case? I think I may need to change the range from -120 to 60.
Next, I will need to have a way to make the morph for the right side. Is there any script to do that?
Currently, I make my JCMs manually, no script is involved. Maybe, this is why I'm having such hard time.
(This is the same script I posted in the main Antonia thread.)
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
Hi all,
I just posted the latest version of WIP at http://sites.google.com/site/amyaimei/antonia, the name of the file is Test_lThighKick_-60to60.zip. This one showcases a cascading JCM, it works! It can perform a lThigh Kick from -60 to 60 degree. I tested it in DAZ Studio 3 only. I'm not sure how it behave in Poser. It will be nice if someone try it and give me some feedback.
All JCM are sculpted manually by using the sculpt feature in Blender. I tried to make it bends naturally on Antonia, the shape of the clothing has little changes in the movement. In addition, I changed the mesh, therefore, the new cr2 is not compatible with the old OBJ. Sorry, that's why it takes so long.
Regards,
Amy
Quote - This is how it look. Kick from 0 to -90.
Looking great! :woot: :thumbupboth:
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
Quote - Wow, that's really impressive. I didn't think conforming clothing could do that, which is why I have started to lean more to dynamic.
Well, as long as the base mesh breaks when posing the legs like this, there's no point in trying to make the clothes look good. 
But honestly, I'm impressed and pleasantly surprised, as well. :thumbupboth:
-- I'm not mad at you, just Westphalian.
Hi,
Amy that's looking really good.
A minor issue arose, which i think is just a typo.
I downloaded and tried the latest version you posted but I was not able to get the to work initially ( I use Poser rather than DS) . I searched through the cr2 and found you had used:-
numDeltas 1314
whereas Poser, at least, needs
numbDeltas 1314
The important thing though is that the cascading JCM works really well on the left leg kick. ;-)
Cheers
Ian
Ian, thank you for testing it in Poser. I fixed that in the latest version.
For all, I have completed the left size already, but there are some poke through in some combination of lThigh kick and spread. I don't know how to fix it. Any idea?
The latest version can be found at http://sites.google.com/site/amyaimei/antonia. The file is Test_lThighKick_-90to60_lThighSpread_-15to60.zip.
I'm working on the simple program to make the mirrored ERC/JCM code for the right side based on the Python script provided by Cage. Too bad, I can't use the Poser Python script in DAZ Studio. :sad:
odf, Antonia is really amazing on how she bends. Great work!
Amy,
I'll download and try the latest version. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
If you don't have Poser to run cage's script you might want to try out 'MtMirror' by MASA
it is freeware here:- http://www.eurus.dti.ne.jp/~masasi/DOWNLOAD/other/index.htm
It is a standalone program andit works well so long as the mesh is welded. Since yours is a single group it should work.
Cheers
Ian
Excellent! :woot: Thank you! :thumbupboth:
===========================sigline======================================================
Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.
Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.
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Hi all,
I'm using the post I posted in the thread "Antonia - Opinions?" as the beginning of the thread.
[quote]
It looks like you want to calculate the deltas between your exported object and your modified object. I don't see any problem with your process, but it may be more complex than is necessary. I think a more common approach for deriving the deltas is to import the object you exported back into Poser, then load as a morph target the modified version you exported from Blender. If you save this to your props library, you can just copy over the deltas in the prop's morphs to your .cr2. Poser can do all of the math for you.[/quote]
Cage, yes, the process looks complicated. That's why I think there must be another "easy" way. Therefore, I asked about it.
[quote]
I'm not sure why you wanted to have the joint vertex weights, earlier. How does that fit into your process? I believe those could actually be obtained using PoserPython, now that I think about it, but I'm not sure what else to say about that unless I know what you're trying to do.[/quote]
In my first attempt, the JCM is created by using the clothing object exported when original clothing figure is having lThigh Kick at -60. Then, I scrupted the object to cover Antonia with lThigh Kick set at -60; export the result object and make a morph based on it with the original clothing figure at zero pose. See the result (TestJCM-1):
I tried to made a morph based on the result object with the original clothing figure posed with lThigh Kick at -60 yielded the same result.
From the picture (TestJCM-1), I noticed that the created JCM moved the back of the clothing object to the front more than it should be, therefore, I guessed that I have to take the transformation of the clothing object due to the rotation of the lThigh into account. This is the reason of why I'm asking for the information of joint vertex weights. After reading your reply, I don't think I need it.
[quote]
Also, I think I should verify that by "deltas", in your recent post, you're referring to morph deltas. Is that what you need, the morph deltas?[/quote]
That's right. I'm referring to the morph deltas.
[quote]
If so and you've created your modified .obj in Blender, there shouldn't be any need for a trial-and-error approach.[/quote]
The "trial-and-error approach" I am referring to is the process to make the JCM works for the range of angles.
[quote]
Can you clarify what you need right now? Has any of my response been helpful?[/quote]
Your reply is really helpful. Thank you. After reading your reply, I redo the JCM.
Now, the JCM is created by calculate the differences (deltas) between the original clothing object exported when the lThigh Kick at -60 and the scrupted of it to cover Antonia with lThigh Kick set at -60.
It works well with lThigh Kick value between -60 and 0, but not below -60 or above 0.
These pictures show the results of lThigh Kick set to values below -60 or above 0.
TestJCM-2-n90 (lThigh Kick = -90)
TestJCM-2-p30 (lThigh Kick = 30)
How can I make it to work with the lThigh Kick value below -60 or above 0? I would like to make it work from -105 to 45, i.e., 45 degree more on each side.