Hi People :)

Ya know there are reviews posted against some products, which are generally short and gushing.  If there were a place to get a more detailed review, would you use it?

There are lots of other product industries that regularly review stuff, so why not?

Venders would have to join in of course, you couldn't go round reviewing stuff without their buy in i guess.  But I wouldn't mind having my stuff reviewed, even if it was a bad review I could learn from it and make the next product better.

And buyers would have a better idea that the product they were buying was pretty good.

Looks like a win win from my point of view :) but I'm sure there must be a flaw somewhere.

John

Maybe it would be idea to do reviews based on at least some fixed points. Benefits are
good and full information
fast and click review option for buyer

Agree I mostly check review when I buy larger products also

Quote - Maybe it would be idea to do reviews based on at least some fixed points. Benefits are
good and full information
fast and click review option for buyer

Agree I mostly check review when I buy larger products also

You'd need a set of criteria for products, just to be consistent.  For example

Conforming Clothing
Tendancy to Pokethrough = Run through a fixed set of challenging poses to see how well it copes.  Taking into account morphs included to fix pokethrough.
Morphs = Does it contain the basics, any additional morphs?
Textures = is there 1 texture or a few for different styles looks?  Is the UVMap easy to use to make your own textures?

Between us I'm sure we could come up with a proper list for all types of product.

John

 Not happening.

Try posting a negative comment on a product and see what happens.

God forbid that we discourage a sale.

On the other hand, this is wide open to abuse - even among freebies, there are people who inexplicably run around giving shitty ratings on things.  Why?  These are good models AND THEY'RE FREE:
http://www.sharecg.com/v/39156/Poser/Special-Ops-Weapon-Prop
http://www.sharecg.com/v/40100/3D-Model/Frommer-37.M (someone had given this model a ONE STAR rating!)
(and that's just a couple of examples)

When money is involved it gets worse.  I recall at another site, someone went through nearly the entire catalogue and gave minimum ratings to every single item, when obviously they hadn't bought all of those items.

Well the key to the whole thing is to come up with a set of review criteria that take the subjective aspects out of a review.  As a community it's about setting a benchmark for what represents a good product.

I don't see it being a random product selection thing, if a vendor wanted to have a product reviewed then they would ask.  They get an honest appraisal of the product, and a little more exposure, buyers get an idea of what is ok/good/excellent.  Vendors who don't participate get to carry on as the always have done.

John

I am sure some vendors are less open and even can understand when review is done on emotions and not facts/criteria. All the vendors I know are proud of there products and open to feedback both good and less when given in constrcutive way.

Perfection is dull, the road to it is vibrant and fun

I think it should be done off site, with a trusted stable of solid, non-emo reviewers that have the above mentined criteria and know how to write.  Merchants should submit their product for review.  Those who are afraid to do so, well, that speaks volumes too.

Mats need work on those guns.  Maybe someone was expecting them to have pullable triggers or detachable clips as well.

Quote - I think it should be done off site, with a trusted stable of solid, non-emo reviewers that have the above mentined criteria and know how to write.  Merchants should submit their product for review.  Those who are afraid to do so, well, that speaks volumes too.

I absolutely agree :)

Quote - Mats need work on those guns.  Maybe someone was expecting them to have pullable triggers or detachable clips as well.

Huh?

Quote - Mats need work on those guns.

Presumably that's about the free gun models I linked.  His description says pretty plainly they are not textured, and they're not advertised as being rigged - why did they get a minimum rating (1 out of 10)?  Really not justified.

Quote - > Quote - Mats need work on those guns.

Presumably that's about the free gun models I linked.  His description says pretty plainly they are not textured, and they're not advertised as being rigged - why did they get a minimum rating (1 out of 10)?  Really not justified.

Because people are used to having everything done for them?

no mats, no rig? you mean I have to do it myself? 1star

Ok folks lets end this now and keep it nice. Free items are what it says FREE and a gift. If the text says what the item is each person can decide if he likes it or not.

My point was that there are people who will rate stuff terribly despite it being if truly superior quality, as those gun models are, even when they're free - as distasteful as it is to say this, if you have a public review site for whatever paid Poser content then you'd have to restrict your reviewers to a certain set of people (which wouldn't exactly be "public").  If you're going to do something like this I don't think I would bother to try to get buy-in from particular content makers, just review stuff that you bought.

 Uhm hello Ladiesmen. Never met you before but I see you're the new coordinator. 

Nice start, snapping in a thread where we was exactly DISCOURAGING  giving a one star review to that product. Fugazi's reply is what's called sarcasm (PRETTY thick if you ask me...)

Where's Kaibach with the popcorn?

Ratings and discussions of ratings will always be controversial.  Some people will rate an item poor based on site issues and not actual product issues.  Some will rate poorly based on what they want the product to include despite the product listing that it doesn't.  Some have favorite merchants whom they feel can do no wrong.   It's all subjective. 

Fugazi1968, sounds like an offsite system similar to Yelp is what you're after. 

 It's too easy to click on "Rate this!" and give bad grades to a product.

But if you create a review system which only accepts textual, fairly detailed descriptions, this is much better.

"Vandal reviewers" are too lazy to waste their time writing something meaningful.

No stars, no votes, no comboboxes with numbers: just force your reviewers to write more than twenty words, and you will have a good quote of useful reviews.

Giorgio

 A friend of mine used to review some of the content she'd purchased on her site, especially if she loved it's aesthetics but ended up having to fix it.  She's since stopped, due to stopping her purchases, but I think that an objective review, the way she had it, was pretty refreshing.  

if youre going to rate pokethrough, then an equal rating must be given for clothing fit.

for example if there is a 1-10 scale for pokethrough, there should also be a 1-10 scale for clothing fit/tailoring. this is especially important in tight-fitting clothing.

you will often find that these two attributes have an inverse relationship, and that it is extremely easy to make the typical 'skin-tight' outfit thats 2-3" away from the character's skin conform well. it becomes exponentially more difficult the closer to the skin your clothing is, and most customers would prefer a compromise of tight-fitting and minor pokethrough in extreme poses over the typical item that floats 3" away from the skin but has no pokethrough.

simply giving one scale for pokethrough unjustly favors sloppy loose-fitting meshes.

offsite rating has been proposed before here, but either they didn't create the site, or they created
it and nobody participated.  I can't recall who did it but maybe searching here would find it.

 IIRC, Penguinisto wanted to do one years ago, but I think the uproar was over the thought that it would be a "Name and Shame" rather than a review.
I can honestly say, while he can be a smart alec like the rest of us, I can see him giving serious reviews as well, so, YMMV.

My thought is that as a community we can create a Gold Standard for content, this will help in two ways I think.

1. For vendors it would be a mark of quality for their product, helping it stand out from the tonnes of stuff out there.
2. For buyers it indicates what measure of quality a product has before they buy it.

For up and coming vendors it gives something to work towards, and an idea of what a quality product should contain.

If people did not want to participate, then thats fine.  But I think the important thing here is that buyers and vendors wrk together to establish what a good product should contain.

@Blackhearted

I totally agree man, and it's insight like that which would make the whole thing work properly.  It's really important to know what is wanted and to craft a standard around those criteria.

John

Quote -  IIRC, Penguinisto wanted to do one years ago, but I think the uproar was over the thought that it would be a "Name and Shame" rather than a review.
I can honestly say, while he can be a smart alec like the rest of us, I can see him giving serious reviews as well, so, YMMV.

Ya know I personally am not interested in Naming and Shaming anyone, I have no interest in pointing fingers or preventing sales.  What I am interested in is

1. Doing something that I passionately believe will benefit the whole community, both vendors and buyers.
2. Improve my artwork and modelling at the same time :)

John.

 I often wish that feedback was mandatory the way it is on eBay. Meaning that you CAN get away with not leaving feedback (or GETTING feedback) on eBay, but then few people would deal with you. I'm personally wary of buying stuff from someone with very little feedback. I've done so a few times, but mostly in cases where there was no member history and they were very upfront with the "hey I'm new but trustworthy" thing. Of course anyone can claim to be "new and trustworthy" but again, someone has to give the first feedback to ANY new merchant, here or on eBay.

I've never understood why there isn't an automated ebot going off to customers when they've  bought something. Not straight away, it's rare to buy something and be able to fully evaluate it within 5 minutes, but say an ebot that checked that if no feedback was left within a week, then shoot off a friendly reminder, like what Amazon does, the "You've bought this and that, please review" - not mandatory (since a lot of people do NOT have English as their first language and may fee uncomfortable by HAVING to write something - I know I'd rather not be forced to leave feedback on German or Japanese sites although I can understand some of both languages... understanding something isn't the same as being able to write it L)

But a reminder would be great. I know I'd be more inclined to review something if I was gently nudged. I buy a lot of stuff, install it and forget it L (or in some cases - buy it and forget to install it even...)

It would give a better rate of feedback - some of my stuff has sold LOADS, but with only 1 or 2 feedback it may appear to be something nobody even bought... AND it would make people like me remember that they'd bought it in the first place L

(please tell me I'm not the only collector here who buys things because of the immediate WOW factor even if it's something I don't have any actual use for?)

 My biggest problem has, and always will be....I don't end up using something until after the window they leave up for reviews is done.  That's completely my fault.  

Also, I don't leave reviews for things that I haven't used.  My "review" for an item that I think is complete crap is returning it (and I've only done that a couple times, and that was at DAZ, I think).  And, if I really love it, I'll leave a glowing and descriptive review.  That doesn't happen often.

You folks that want to do this, probably you ought to just get on with doing it :)

I think sellers should be allowed to opt of the review system if they want to.

Or you could have a customer review system. Where sellers rate the customers reviewing ability.and skills  :)

Quote -  I often wish that feedback was mandatory the way it is on eBay. Meaning that you CAN get away with not leaving feedback (or GETTING feedback) on eBay, but then few people would deal with you.

i dont agree.
feedback is earned. it shouldnt be mandatory, or it becomes meaningless. the marketplace would be full of:*
*'GREAT PRODUCT SUPER VENDOR!!!11!!!  A+++++++++++++ <('-'<) <( '-' )> (>'-')>' *
*type feedback.
same goes for vendors who sneakily 'reward' customers for leaving feedback.

right now if a customer leaves you feedback you can feel that youve earned it. making it mandatory would devalue it completely to the level of eBay feedback.

Quote - feedback is earned. it shouldnt be mandatory, or it becomes meaningless. the marketplace would be full of:*
*'GREAT PRODUCT SUPER VENDOR!!!11!!!  A+++++++++++++ <('-'<) <( '-' )> (>'-')>' *
*type feedback.

Sort of like how a lot of people who comment in the galleries are just pasting the same exact comment for everything over and over.

i should also point out that mandatory feedback would only be an indicator of sales volume, not customer satisfaction.  incidentally, it would further reward the makers of $5 products (as if their advantage in 'whats hot' ratings wasnt enough).

with the current feedback system you have the opportunity to distinguish yourself with quality products and customer service -- you could have low sales but still have a high volume of positive customer feedback.

I think the point of the thread was to create a new, off-Rendo set of reviews rather than try to change Renderosity's (which is made out of cast lead anyway, talking about changing that is kind of a non-starter).

Quote - Trekkiegrlllll (hope I spelled it right :-) ) - But a reminder would be great. I know I'd be more inclined to review something if I was gently nudged. I buy a lot of stuff, install it and forget it L (or in some cases - buy it and forget to install it even...)

I would love a reminder as I buy stuff and like you said sometimes I install them or I forget to install them.So I forget to leave a review...lol.I do try to leave one right after I buy,but sometimes I buy alot in shopping spree that I forget to leave feedback :-(.

Quote - (please tell me I'm not the only collector here who buys things because of the immediate WOW factor even if it's something I don't have any actual use for?)

You are not dear I do the same thing and now am going through my archives and installing the latest stuff or the ones that I have not installed yet...lol.Now if only I could find the time to play that would be great :-)

Reminders for unreviewed products would piss me off very quickly indeed.  I don't go back into every store I shop at to tell them how great their cat food/tv/disposable nappies/beer is, nor do I write to manufacturers.  I don't see why I should be expected to here.

The few times I've left product feedback here is because I really felt like doing so.  I don't need a "reminder" to make my mind up whether or not to do something.  If anything, that would push me in the opposite direction. 

     I recall reading a report that several eBay vendors had been targeted by blackmail reviewers, so I would want vendors to have some recourse, especially if you find that buyer X has given several vendors terrible reviews.

     I only make freebies, so I don't have a vested interest myself, but I can see two sides to this.  My gallery is essentially a freebie catalog, and I allow comments, but I reserve the right to respond.
     If a criticism is constructive, I may well thank the reviewer;  if it's apparent that the reviewer is snarky and/or incompetent, then I would want to be able to contest the point.

     I like the current system, in which I may review an item if I'm particularly happy/unhappy with it, and the vendor can respond.
     If I paid for an item, I'd be kinda torqued if some socialista required me to review it.  And don't send me a reminder.  I get enough spam already.

Quote - Well the key to the whole thing is to come up with a set of review criteria that take the subjective aspects out of a review.

and this is the problem i personally see right off the bat.  i've been fighting and fighting my V4 textures right now, and the problem with pretty much all of them is burned in shadow and specular, totally wrong ways of making bump and displacement maps, and a complete misunderstanding of what a specular map actually does.    and all of that traces back to over-reliance on 3d painting tools and photo references.

but to judge by reviews and sales, artifact-free maps are not what people want. quite the opposite, in fact.  i can almost always spot the most popular textures by their highlights on the forehead, nose, and lips.  in fact, many seem to rely on the burned in specular to do what their lighting isn't doing.  and to judge by forum threads and advice, absolutely no one seems to think a specular map should actually define regions rather than low level details.

i think Blackhearted's comment about fit brings up a similar example.  me, i'd rather not have to try to force clothes to fit better everywhere.  but poke through is a pretty simple problem with several quick and easy solutions (Photoshop, morph brush, free 3d software, etc.).  so to me high quality means good fit, and poke-through is pretty irrelevant.

products are full of these kinds of trade-offs.  morphs vs. polycount.  user-friendly mapping  vs. stretching.  control vs.simplicity.  realism vs. resource requirements.  popularity and support vs. originality.  versatility vs. optimized performance.  i don't think it makes sense to make one good and the other bad.  also, the balance is in vastly different places for different people.  there's no way you can address those issues with total objectivity.  some, yeah, but very, very far from complete.

i think honest and specific reviews are good, especially if they're assessments and not evaluations.  that is, what the product is and isn't instead of whether a feature is good or bad. but i think it would be a shame if merchants got discouraged because reviewers just didn't share the same opinions about what was important.

You can't, unless it's changed, review a product here unless you have bought it. If you could leave an honest review of a product here I would use it, but if you say anything other than it's wonderful or deserves 5 stars you are considered a jerk. That's why I leave no reviews good or bad anymore. Also it seems that these forums are turning into vanilla pudding. You say anything that the moderator considers, in their opinion, to be at all out of line and you face the possiblity of being shut down. I really miss the old renderosity. Actually it's a moot point for me since I no longer buy items here.

Quote "If I paid for an item, I'd be kinda torqued if some socialista required me to review it.  And don't send me a reminder.  I get enough spam already."

Do I ever agree with this!

*..products are full of these kinds of trade-offs.0..

*Exactly! 

I don't mind reviews which point out a tradeoff. But the review shoud be on the whole product not one thing/tradoff that the reviewer doesn't like.

*but if you say anything other than it's wonderful or deserves 5 stars you are considered a jerk

Personally I don't mind a middling review if ir's fair, accurate and honest.
For example they raise a technical fact such as the doors don't open.

Not reading instructions is common, but we're all guilty of that one :) 

But where Mr Slighty Grumpy comes out is when the reviwer leaves a poor review. Usually because they don't like the way you did something. Thats unfair as everyone does things differently and often there is no defined standard of  doing something.  

However Mr P*ssed Right Off arrives is when the reviewer attacks the product or the artist for no valid reason. Those shoud be deleted  as they serve no other purpose than to try to derail a product.

there's also all sorts of misunderstandings.  an artist whose gallery i follow came out with a pretty impressive set of Taekwondo poses and a dynamic gi. the artist is Korean, and seems to post text very rarely and in English that looks auto-translated.  the main (and only) image says the outfit is dynamic (in big yellow letters), but there's no description and it's not in the title.  there's a review on this product in German that gives it 1 star.  after using Google to translate, i found out that person thought the product was awful because the outfit only worked in one pose and couldn't be used as real clothing.  i'm guessing that the person buying it just depended on auto-translation and couldn't read the "Dynamic" embedded in the image.

neither party was at fault, but the product was unfairly reviewed.

definitely wouldn't want F.B. as mandatory from a buyer's perspective.  I don't always have the time to leave feedback. I will try to at some point - especially when the product is good.

Poser 8 really needed a better review. When i bought it, that's when i found out it wasn't for me. There was no  reviews nothing, specifically no reviews for mac version.

So i ended up returning it and now I went back to using Poser 6, which is better

It's a massive over simplification to say you can't leave anything but a glowing review or give a product less than 5 stars.  I have given meaningful criticism and given less than 5 stars on several products.  

That said, there is something which really gets my goat when I think about it.  Some time back I bought a product which was far less than wonderful.  In fact, it was pretty bloody awful.  I kept it because it was the only one of a kind I'd ever seen and I hadn't at that time got the skills to make my own.  So, being a resonable guy, I contacted the vendor with a nice enough email, pointing out the problems and asking if he would be updating the item at any time.

The reply I got back said I didn't know what I was doing and shouldn't ask stupid questions if I don't know how to use the software.  I wrote back and advised the guy that I did, in fact, know exactly what I was doing.  He then replied and told me Poser users expect too much for their money and that he'd sweated blood over the model so I should be grateful.

I didn't bother leaving a review for the product after that because I didn't trust myself to stay within the TOS.  Sure, I could have gone for a refund but, as I said before, this was a one of a kind thing.

As it happens, I now have the necessary skills to make this particular item and I can honestly say there's no blood sweating involved.  You'd be able to make one yourself in about 10 minutes.  Oh well, live and learn.

Some time later, I bought a texture set by a very well known vendor.  Looked great apart from great big seams everywhere.  So, remembering my first experience, I didn't bother to contact the vendor, I left a review which stated exactly what the problems were.  Bear in mind, seams on a texture set are a big no-no and they're grounds for rejection by the store testers.  How this one made it through I don't know.  I've had some of my own rejected for less.

Next up, I have the vendor pissing in my ear about it, a certain Marketplace person pissing in my ear about it and several short exchanges of opinions between myself, the store and the vendor.  I was even accused of "professional jealousy" and trying to undermine the guy's rep by leaving a bad review.

The line taken at the time was "Contact the vendor and if you're still not happy you can have a refund".  I politely told the vendor to stick his texture set up his arse and collected a refund.  My review was deleted and I presume the product was pulled for revision.  I wouldn't know for sure because I sure as hell wouldn't buy a single damn thing from this vendor ever again.

So in sum, yes you can leave a less than glowing review but beyond that it gets a bit tricky.

And yes, I'm still pissed about both occurrences.