I know I risk getting shot down in flames for saying this. But it seems to me that some sellers (not all by any means) have lost touch with reality. I'm referring to the prices being asked for some of the texture sets being offered. When a set of textures in priced higher than the model for which it is intended then something's gone wrong.
Nursoda & Smay are two of my favourite modellers. They produce terrific products with loads of content at sensible prices most can afford. But then we get swamped with texture sets for them by other vendors who want to charge us more or the same as the original models cost.
C'mon guys! Please use a little common sense when it comes to pricing texture sets. Most of us are having a tough time at present. And it's not rocket science to work out that during these hard times that you will sell more if you keep your prices reasonable and competitive. Rather than putting them up to try and fill the hole in sales because of the recession.

Welcome to the Suggestion Box Forum ....

And your's IS ?

Depends on the quality of the textures I'd say. Some really suck. Some are really good, and being a texturer myself, I can tell you for a solid fact that texturing takes longer than modeling. Good texturing, that is ;o).

Seems no one gives a rat's ass about the texturers. It's no one's fault but the site for allowing so many crap texture sets to hit the market place. Flood fills for instance, make me crazy. There's just too much of that crap. The trick is, identifying the good texture artists. They are, IMVHO, worth the price. After all, you do get what you pay for.

One more thing to remember is that while a model might have just the mesh and a basic texture, texture packs commonly have three or more sets. If it's a good texturer, who pays a lot of attention to detail, that's a helluva lot of work. I'm just sayin' ;o).

Laurie

  LaurieA I could'nt agree more. And I did say it was'nt all texturers I had a beef with. It's nice of you to acknowledge that there is a lot of "crap" (your term, lol) out there.
Being a texturer yourself maybe you can explain why and how so many 3rd party texture sets hit the store within 48 hours of a new model being released? Surely it's just an attempt to "cash in". I mean how much work has gone into a texture set that's released within 24 hours of a model being put on sale?

BAR CODE

If you can't see what the suggestion is then I guess there's no point in replying to you!

Quote -   LaurieA I could'nt agree more. And I did say it was'nt all texturers I had a beef with. It's nice of you to acknowledge that there is a lot of "crap" (your term, lol) out there.
Being a texturer yourself maybe you can explain why and how so many 3rd party texture sets hit the store within 48 hours of a new model being released? Surely it's just an attempt to "cash in". I mean how much work has gone into a texture set that's released within 24 hours of a model being put on sale?

On your first point, I always stick up for the texturers...lol. Again, the good ones ;o).

On your second, there is WAY too much crap. I've been moaning about it for years. I've seen a lot of it I wouldn't even release as a freebie.

Being a texture artist myself, how can so many texture sets hit the MP so fast? That could be one of two reasons. Either the artist was given the mesh and uvs by the modeler before release so that they could hit the MP in relative short time to each other or yep, you guessed it - rushed, crappy flood fills ;o). Cashing in with something anyone with Photoshop and a pattern fill can do. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' with it! LOL

Laurie

It'd be a lose/lose situation for most texture makers, since all the  DAZ human figures are now free.  Are you seriously suggesting the texture makers should give you money as well as their work?

Believe it or not a good texture takes longer to make than a model.   I'm not talking about the cut and stick resource kits with pre made skins here; I mean building it up from photos and creating something other than the thousands of generic sets out there.

All of the above is why I have all but quit making textures, other than the odd one now and again.  Any future ones won't be human skin, anyhow.  There's a lower percieved value to textures, even if the creator sweats blood to get it right.  They sell low, considering the work undertaken, and are gone in a few weeks.

Poser content in general is under valued.  Yes, there is some crap out there, same as anywhere, but for every lousy model/texture set, there are at least a dozen very good ones and a high proportion of superb stuff, the equal of any models elsewhere.  And all for stupidly low prices.  Don't believe me?   Check out the Squid.  It ain't so much they are over priced, it's that we here in Poserdom are spoiled rotten.

SamTherapy

The Daz figures may be free but the clothing is'nt. And anyway. The two example modellers I mentioned earlier produce their own models and don't (in general) produce kit for Daz figures. The "MORE" texture sets are generally exellent and well worth the money. But to be honest I don't accept your estimate that there are a dozen good ones for every bad one. I think that's an ever so slightly biased estimate on the side of the vendors, lol.
When we get onto the subject of Poser content being under priced. I suppose it depends on what side of the fence your looking at it from i.e. seller or buyer. Why do you say it's under priced? A model or texture is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. You can't try to justify what a products value is by the man hours put in to produce it. If that were the case we'de all be paying a lot more for the food we eat or the everyday items we use about the home. I'm afraid that arguement is a total non starter. You have to set a products price at what people are prepared to pay, not what you think they should pay.

I think what SamTherapy is saying is that for a hobby...yes, we are all spoiled rotten ;o). When Victoria 1 was first released, I paid over a hundred dollars for her, her textures and her morphs, etc. I was prepared to pay that. In the ensuing years, and I think due in large part to Daz's marketing strategy of giving things away, people don't seem to want to pay all that much for accessories for said models because they paid nothing for the model in the first place. In no way does that mean that the work involved in creating those accessories have changed. They take just as much work, take just as long as they did before. And yet, because people now perceive their value as less, people just don't want to pay as much. The 'everything free or nearly free' mentality has been persisting now for quite a few years. Not only is it unrealistic, but since no vendor is a company like Daz, they can't rightly give everything they make away for free. It's just not feasible. I'm certainly not saying that I don't love free (you know I'd be lying...lol), but for the person who works at their home computer after having also worked all day, making things for Poser, it's a tough job. It should be rewarded if the product merits. But once prices go into the basement, they never come back again. And from the standpoint of most 3D products, Poser product price are already dirt, dirt cheap.

Laurie

Hi Laurie

That's the way of the world I'm afraid. I'd like to be able to charge more for my products (not Poser related, lol). But I know there is a finite price that I can charge. I changed my marketing stratagy a couple of years ago. Where I used to charge $10 for one of my products and made $4. I dropped the price to $5 and made $2. The result was that I sold 4 times more product than when priced at £10. OK, it meant less profit per item. But that was more than offset by the increase in sales. The end result was that I had more money each month once I dropped my prices. Another benefit I did'nt forsee at the time was that because I was selling more I got a better deal on my raw materials. So I also saved around 25% of costs which upped my income even more. Now I understand that that would'nt apply in the case of Poser content as there are no raw materials involved. But even so I'd rather sell 6 texture sets at $7 than 3 at 10.
The lower the price the bigger the market. That's why "Nursoda & Smay" products sell so well. They both sell fantastic content at a price point most everyone can afford. That's why they both have plenty of buyers leave sale comments. Then look at the sale comments left for some of the third party texturers for their products and I think you will see their sales are either paultry or in some cases non existant. Sales boil down to a combination of quality and price.

But in most cases the prices can't really go any cheaper. Since most things are 10 dollars or less, if they get any cheaper, people may as well just give them away like free candy ;o).

In the end you can't tell someone how much to charge for a product they make. You can only protest with your wallet ;o). Since you already do that, and so does everyone else, that's about all you can do.

Laurie

I totally agree with the "vote with your wallet" scenerio. And I do just that. But if there's a texturer (or modeller) out there who is wondering why their sales are not what they thought or think they should be.

My advice would be to look at price first because it's even possible to sell "crap" if the price is right, lol.

And with those words of wisdom I will now climb back into my box, lol.

Quote - My advice would be to look at price first because it's even possible to sell "crap" if the price is right, lol.

Oh, certainly. I know a couple who could sell ice water to Eskimos...lolol.

Laurie

Laurie's posts pretty much sum up the situation.  The upshot is there's little or no incentive now for vendors to make anything different or of a higher standard than the rest.  There are exceptions but you'll note their stuff is generally higher priced than most.

BTW, I'll revise my statement regarding "dozens" to "the majority".  You have to look at the whole of the market for the past eight or so years, though.  Comparing like for like across the standards of the day, the quality of bought stuff was generally high.  Maybe the scales have tipped in the other direction now but that's simply because of all the reasons stated above.  Sad, really.  The standards should have seen a steady increase, based on what we know about texture making and Poser's capabilities.  

The (fairly) recent rise in resource kits has, IMO, just about killed the texture market and is, IMO, the main reason why there are now lots of generic texture sets and prices are in the toilet.  

Fascinating discussion.

resource kits are the downfall of textures? what rubbish. Resource kits are how people who don't or can't model get their "dial-spun" characters into the market.

What I find truly bizarre is that people expect to pay $5 - 10 for the same things that a tattoo shop pays $100 or MORE.

and don't even get me started on quality and realism. Has anyone EVER seen a texture set with a properly made, hand-painted bump map? How about any map with no baked on artifacts?

The "raw materials" are the friggin problem! They need to be processed before use just like raw iron!

Sorry, I'm ranting and raving again, I'll climb off the soapbox now ....

*In no way does that mean that the work involved in creating those accessories have changed. They take just as much work, take just as long as they did before.

In some cases it take longer and more work then it used to because it's almost become a necessity for vendors to make their products work in both Poser and DS when they only had to make them work in Poser before the arrival of DS. 

SamTherapy

When Poser first hit the market, content  prices were a lot higher than they are now I agree. But that's the same with any new product. Until a product amasses a larger user base it will remain a niche product. And until a mass market is established prices will stay relatively high.

Poser has ever been a free product. Yes you could run it on trial. But if you wanted to continue you had to buy it. Then Daz stepped in and gave everyone the chance to create with the free Daz Studio. It was a masterpiece of marketing. It allowed anyone to create their own masterpieces. And it also vastly expanded the user base for Poser content. But the new mass appeal did'nt come from the business sector. It came from people sat at home wanting to create as a hobby. They have a budget to keep too. And so they are'nt going to pay anywhere near the amount of money the pro artists who were using Poser within their businesses. When using Poser content for business use then it's a whole different ball game. You can pass the cost of content onto your client as part of their bill.  Thats why a tattooist is willing to pay a higher price than a hobbyist.

Lucie

Lastly! Because so many new people have been allowed to sample 3d creation with Daz Studio. Many have progressed into Poser and boosted Poser sales. Daz Studio was the hook that caught the imagination of the people and all Poser artists have benefitted from it either directly or indirectly over the last few years. As people really start to get into 3d they want to start to produce their own content. There are now more modellers and texture artists than ever and the vast majority do it in their spare time. Whether you like the term or not. Poser content is a "cottage industry". Produced by people all over the world in their livingrooms, dens or bedrooms. And because theres no vetting of product quality here at Rendo (to my knowledge). There's always going to be a large amount of what at best can be termed as "sub standard". That's bound to happen in an amateur or hobbyist market. My only gripe is that some of these vendors think that their product is on a par with the best and so price their work at the top tier. It is to these vendors I say "be realistic" with the setting of prices and you'll sell more.

I'm sure most of them will eventually realize that their products aren't up to par with other similar products of the same price and that they either got to lower their price or increase the quality of their product if they want to get sales.  Or they'll give up entirely when they realize that there's no fortune to be made in this business with the amount of work that has to go into each products in order to get a few sales... 

But then you're right too, a lot of the vendors who make sub-standard products are hobbyist and amateurs, many of them don't do this for a living and are very happy if they manage to get 4-5 buyers to get their products so they'll just keep  at it. 

Maybe it should be the other way around and it's those who make really good quality products and sell them dirt cheap who should think about increasing their prices a little.  ;)

Hmmm. You do realize that some people actually just might consider that their textures are worth every penny in the time they took to create them.

One might consider that textures are in some cases equal to the model especially if the textures are in fact high quality.

On the one hand you have a person with the tenacity and skill involved to create, shape and move vertices in 3D space and wield that skill like a brush. On the other hand you have the 2D texture artist whose skill and cunning are nearly and/or equally the same.

Lessening the value of the 2D artist below that of a 3D modeler is almost kind of rude by suggesting that they lower their pricing scheme below that of what might have been paid for the model if it were alone by itself with merely 'gray' shading.

If a man spends 20 hours on a model and a man spends 20 hours on a 2d texture how do you actually differentiate between the value of time either took to create both.

A model is JUST a model by itself where the texture makes the model and actually brings it to life and in that case the textures value actually becomes higher than what the model is worth.

I think people are actually more than reasonable with their prices. It's the quality that would beg the price value.

Couldn't have said it better myself ;o).

Laurie

Inception8

Without modelers what would texture artists texture? Most modelers are also texture artists in their own right. So when you buy a model your also buying textures with it. It stands to reason therefore that a modelers output is greater value than that of a sole texture artist.
Just because someone spends twenty hours or more working on a texture does'nt mean that people are willing to pay the price being asked. Twenty hours spent by an amateur may only equal the quality produced by a professional in two. Does that make the amateurs work worth more?

*A model is JUST a model by itself where the texture makes the model and actually brings it to life and in that case the textures value actually becomes higher than what the model is worth.

So true!  I don't know how often I ended up buying models just because other artists had made  add-on texture set that made the models look so much better.  If it hadn't been for that, those models would have stayed on the shelf.

Lucie

I must admit I've never purchased a model on the strength of a seperate third party texture set. For me the model comes first every time. Only this week I purchased a model of an english stable. The textures included with the model are not that good. But I have a use for the model and so I bought it with a view to re-texturing it myself. If someone put up a decent set of textures for it on Rendo then I would seriously think about buying them. But if the price was greater than the cost of the model I would'nt buy them. Because the added cost would make the total cost (model & extra textures) prohibitive.

Nearly all mothers think their baby is the prettiest. It seems texturers take the same view, lol.

PS. A model may be just a model without a texture. But a texture is just a .jpeg without a model, lol.

That's great if you know how to texture a model or if you want to spend the time doing it.  While I can texture models, I don't have the time for that and it's really not my cup of tea, I don't enjoy it all that much so to me, most of the time, good textures for a model are a must unless it's something that can be textured quickly and easily.  I guess we all have different priorities when we make purchases so maybe that's why there's a market for both low cost texture sets and somewhat more pricey ones.

I'll take a set of LaurieS's or Sarsa's textures over almost anyone elses any day. And I'm more than willing to pay more for them too. Why? Cause generally they're better than everyone elses ;o).

For what it's worth, I've been told myself by a vendor modeler that more of their model had been sold on the strength of my textures. It does happen. One hand washes the other. And neither is the more (or less) important.

Laurie

I think this doesent have to deal with quallity
Nursoda & Smay,have low prises and yet great quallity ,but they live in countries,that dollar have great value,
vendors who live in european countries and having euro,loosing lot of money when getting their payment in US Dollars,
When you live in the EU zone,and you have to live from this work,its hard to compeat vendor prises,who live in countries that US dollar have great value,
Hugs:)
Joanna

Does Renderosity help merchants by identifying volume price points for product segments?  Given the amount of sales data available to them, this would be relatively easy.  Believe it or not, ultimate sales for a given product can be fairly accurately predicted given such a rich data source.  If this isn't routinely provided, then merchants are just shooting in the dark with their pricing approach.  The goal normally would be maximum return for a product.  Therefore, knowing that a texture set for a dress (knowing how many of the model sold say in the first week would probably be a strong indicator of ultimate market size) sold at what multiple or factor of the model given a certain price point would be very helpful.

1 @ $100 = $100 total sales
200 @ $2 = $200 total sales

This lays out as a curve with sales and units as the axes.  Simple stuff really, but the data aggregator has to make the information available in order for the vendors to benefit.

Being specially a modeller and a Poser shader developer, I pull my hat for the GOOD texturers.
Nothing to say about if the price shoud be the same, less or more, but agreeding with some of the previous posters here, in ex, Sarsa make the most recognizable, surprising and astonishing  textures for the super quality and detail... and IMO those fairly worth the price she decides to ask.
Same with some others as Marforno, Danie, AerySoul, Tipol, Nursoda, Fenrissa, VirtualWorld, Sams3D, etc... Textures is not the same than Shaders... and if shaders can consume time and effort, textures pick much more, again, IMO.
I have seen wonderfull textures for my hairs and clothings... and I know very well how hard could be to "learn" each new 3d model for making the best for it... SOME are in that level, others, simply, try to.
But my 2 cents here are for the texturers: truly TRULY artists. The price matter is a personal decission and I respect that.