The quality of some of some of the pictures is not good e.g.  {placing of models, depth perception is off and final renders are very grainy and rough}. Yet these pictures are  praised as great works etc??  I'm sorry but I don't understand why people are doing this. According to the Main site  and gallery standards, people can offer critical and non-critical remarks on the artwork presented. How can a person improve their work when people are not honest with their comments. The Bryce Gallery seems to be going south rather quickly.  This is why I will not post any more of my work there. Many of the pictures posted should be in the Beginners Gallery.  Some of the pictures look like they were done by a five year old yet, they are highly praised. Go figure!! just food for thought. I am not an expert myself as I am in the learning process, as are many other people here.  But I'm being straight up with my opinion, based on my observation of what is happening with this site.

Yup. Have thought that myself at times. Seems to be a trend not to be critical of anything in case someone takes offense. To me, the point of being able to give Constructive Critisicm is to help a person improve thier work and to also improve the quality of the pictures posted in the gallery. This is what people need to improve thier skills and thier artistic talent (if they actually have some that is) and in turn it improves both the quality and credibility of both the artist and the program and the gallery.

As long as this trend continues and people are so involved in patting each other on the back and saying how good they are the Bryce gallery will always be considered rather 2cnd rate and amatuerish in scope and talent.

I love using Bryce and as it was the first graphic program I ever had I have lot of fondness for it. I remember how when I first started using it and the people who were here at the time gave me honest appraisals and criticisms on my attempts helped me a lot. I am by no means a great artist or a Bryce user but I attempt to do the best I can and have had my share of bad( and I mean bad) pictures I have posted in the galleries. Thank God I have learned not to post most of them anymore:)

There are some great Bryce users on this site who very rarely post thier work in the gallery any more and I wonder if the above is not part of the reason??

I am not out to offend anyone or to make people angry by what I have said here but more to hopefully make people think about what they are doing when they give high praise to pictures that quite honestly are a lot of times crude, amatuerish and a lot of times bad renders ( some not even anti-aliased) when in all honesty they should know better.

I know they say art is in the eye of the beholder but come on, good is good, bad is bad and crap is crap no matter how you describe. Also, common sense is common sense. Lets use some and lets improve the quality of our gallery.

Art is subjective.  What looks like beginner's or childish work to you may look quite artistic and pleasing to someone else.

However, everyone is entitled to an opinion...  :biggrin:

 AnnieD:   Your comment is quite true, but what gets me is the obviously poor quality pictures that are being highly praised by the same group of people.  I've been told  by other artists on this site that there is always room for improvement, which is part of the learning process with the programs. There are many high quality pictures in this gallery and the other galleries which I admire.  I agree with Beelzebulb's statement art is in the eye of the beholder but, let's be realistic, there is a very obvious difference between good and bad. Not just anybody can sit down at a grand piano and play Chopin. Just like not everyone is an artist just because they use a graphics program. Your quote from Stuart Chase applies quite nicely to what I'm saying:) (Your pictures are very good!) My opinion:)

There is both an artistic element & a social element to Renderosity. For some people, the social element takes precedence. They might comment on & praise a piece because they feel the creator is trying as hard as they can & though they may not have the skill or talent to create professional & polished art, that they should be encouraged. Or they might feel that because someone praised their work, that the sociable thing to do is to reciprocate. Or maybe they're doing it for selfish reasons - because they think their own work will be viewed & commented on more.

Personally, I don't think any of those practices are particularly helpful, but that's just the nature of social interaction here. It's perhaps more common in galleries like Bryce & Poser because they are low cost programs that many amateurs & hobbyists commonly use. Other galleries, like 3D Studio max, Cinema 4D, Zbrush, etc, tend to have a higher proportion of professional users, because they are pricier programs that most amateurs can't afford. You can complain about this kind of thing if you like, but that's just the way it is & I don't think it's likely to change. And there are still plenty of excellent Bryce artists here whose work I continue to admire & enjoy...

eyeland, in light of what is going on in this gallery, change would be good for the community overall.  I am not complaining, just stating my observations. Yes there is a lot of great art in the galleries, those artists have my respect.  It's  the insincerity of some people that repeatedly say the same comments on the pictures regardless of the quality etc. It does say critical and non-critical comments which I believe is the purpose of that section. I don't mean rude or arrogant and mean comments, but true criticism in an effort to help that person improve. That to me is what that section is for. I agree with your comment.  A more positive social interaction with honest comments in the equation would be beneficial to the artist.

You know, a few years back there was a group of Bryce artists who were very, very good. Unfortunately, they knew how good they were, and decided they were, in fact, too good for the likes of this forum or gallery, and left to form their own elite little spot. Now no one sees their work, no one gains from their expertise, and only a few people remember who they were. Look at it this way: the crappier most of the renders in the Gallery are, the better yours will look.

It's not limited to 'low end' platforms, either. People manage to scrape up the money, mooch, or otherwise obtain some pretty pricey ones, and post the most unimaginable dreck.

I hate to say it, but 3DCommune was a great place to learn. All levels posted in the same Bryce Gallery, and the criticism there was made in such a way that toes remained unbruised, advice was heeded, and people actually improved.

I have no problem with any of the above statements at all. In fact, I (being wishy washy:) agree with both sides of this topic to one degree or another(wishy- washy I know) but I do have a problem with someone who will for example knock down a pictures rating and then not have the courtesy to explain why they did so. Have they seen something that others have missed?? If so, point it out and then perhaps they will help that person to improve that aspect of thier next render. Honest ctiticism given properly in a true effort to help a person improve thier skills is better than no comment at all don't you agree?

I commented on this thread because many times I have felt that the gallery has become more of a social network gathering place than a place to test your skills and improve your skills. This can work only if people are honest in thier opinions on a persons work and tell them any reasons or what you think may help them in thier future endeavors.

As for the low prices of programs such as Bryce and Poser lets look at ones like Blender which is free and some of the amazing work done by some of the truly talented people now using that program. There will always be those who will excel in different graphic programs and those. like me, who just fuddle thier way through things usually with no idea half the time what they are doing.

Lets face it, most of us use these programs out of an innate desire or need to create something of our own and we realise we will never be a Boris Vallejo or come close to being what we who use Bryce call a "Bryce Master".

I think that what is being stated in Datadraws post is that self serving "I'm being nice to you, you be nice to me" comments are not really being honest with each other and serves no purpose in helping one improve. Here comes the "wishy- washy again:)" No offense to anyone who posts anywhere in the gallery or here intended.

Had to edit because I remember a lot of those people scanmead is talking about. And 3D Commune was a great place to learn from some truly great people. And it is true that some of those people left because they thought that way. I do miss some of the people who used to be here but they had thier reasons I guess:(

Yeah, I used to call them the Bad Boyz Club. They were amazing... and amazingly hilarious in a caustic sort of way. ;)

The good news about those who run for Most Popular in the galleries, is that they quickly become bored (got this sussed, what's next to conquer), and fade away.

Harrison2 put up some excellent tutorials in threads over at 3DC. I wonder if he still has any of them saved?

 

Quote - Yeah, I used to call them the Bad Boyz Club. They were amazing... and amazingly hilarious in a caustic sort of way. ;)

The good news about those who run for Most Popular in the galleries, is that they quickly become bored (got this sussed, what's next to conquer), and fade away.

Harrison2 put up some excellent tutorials in threads over at 3DC. I wonder if he still has any of them saved?

 

That would be nice if he does. A lot of good tutorials seem to have gone by the wayside as people left.

One thing I am proud of is that I have never been real popular all the way back to the old poserforums site:) Kind of masochistic I guess.

Popularity is over-rated. ;)

I'd completely forgotten we lost Harrison2 a while back. Thanks to Hubert for reminding me.

I'm sure most of realise that we were all beginners once and felt proud of our first render even if it was a SSOW (Shiny Sphere Over Water).

We should remember that there are people of all ages and abilities here, and that some of us are lucky enough to have friends, admirers and fans who are willing to give encouragement and praise even though to the rest of us that praise might seem too enthusiastic for a particular work.

We had the same problem with the HOT20 which IIRC is one of the reasons we don't have it any more.

But you can help rectify this by adding your own comments to those works that you feel aren't up to the mark. I'm not saying you should go around saying that a particular piece is rubbish. But you could say things like: "This is an interesting piece, but had you thought about.......... as I think it would look better this way?"

I'm sure a beginner would appreciate this more than the "OMG!! That's fantastic!" comments you guys seem to be talking about. Even us old hands like getting a suggestion or two now and then. I know I always appreciate any comments I get.

In my opinion if you want things to change in the galleries you might consider leading by example.

I agree completely with your comment Bryster. It is not the images but the comments that I believe need to be addressed. And I certainly wouldn't want anyone to be rude nor condescending towards people who are just beginning the programs as that is not required nor wanted. I remember years ago some of the people (a lot of whom are no longer around now) who using finesse and tact helped myself and others greatly and made us feel good about our efforts. That is what I would like to see once again as the more people become better at thier attempts the more people we will attract to using the programs. This in turn improves not only thier work but the community as a whole. We were once an exciting and vibrant community using Bryce and loved to share anything we knew with each other and a return to that type of atmosphere would be a very good thing.

BTW, I still have my sphere over water and I thought I was quite artistic at the time by putting mountains in it with rainbow colors:) I thought the reflections over the water were awesome and was proud my machine at the time rendered it in only 27 hours. (P2 266 with 64 megs ram. Fastest chip available on the planet at that time.:)

It's always happened like that, and this topic was a big issue back in the days of the Hot20. The other aspect you may wish to take into account is that Bryce until recently was going no where in terms of development. Many people moved on to Vue, so in some respects we have been left with a lot of hobbyist who just want to have a bit of fun, and a glut of beginners who will take time to bed in.

I do agree on the over enthusiastic commenting which serves no purpose to make someone improve, but you will always get the mutual backslapping crowd. I have asked myself for realistic critique on pieces but rarely get any. Where as I have on another site I use and it helps me improve. Unfortunately this will always exist at Renderosity.

Ego stroking goes on at many sites. I am glad the Daz acquired Bryce, since they dedicated themselves to further develop it.

I hope the above comments will have a positive impact and help the gallery to be what it should be. A place to share artistic creation and talent and to give and receive positive criticism on the art that is presented. A tip of the hat, to the seasoned artists out there and many lessons to be learned from them, as the new artists strive to achieve their artistic goals.

I have been a brick a mortar art gallery visitor for many years. I didn't feel I could give any critic of the art work there, but I could express my opinion... I just spent more time at the pieces I liked. 

Here at renderosity when I see pieces that I think need help I some times would like to give a critic. I don't. I feel that so many members might think that I am not qualified to question their creativity. I think that this feeling might be typical of the members here.  It takes a very special person to be able to teach some one. they have to both tell them what they are doing wrong and how to do it right... And at the same time boost their creativity.  A suggestion. At the beginning of  each thread place a large announcement encouraging us be kind and say whats wrong with this art.  

It's not just the galleries. Many people have left Renderosity behind and more keep dissappearing every day.

Steve, maybe it's because they have moved on, either their interest has waned; different new sites has popped up; sickness, illness within the family, death, work, real life has intruded. Maybe the economy is so bad, they are cutting back. Or maybe the computer has died and they can't affored a new one at the moment... Then there's facebook and the whole social networking thing going on... Or maybe they are just fed up with the small, narrow minded people who have nothing better to do than to harrass, steal or criminally bully other people.

 

But then we get new people every day, some who are reading or lurking in this forum right now. Give them a few months to warm up and post a few lines in here... Then we can scare them away... hehehehe :lol:

Quote - Steve, maybe it's because they have moved on, either their interest has waned; different new sites has popped up; sickness, illness within the family, death, work, real life has intruded. Maybe the economy is so bad, they are cutting back. Or maybe the computer has died and they can't affored a new one at the moment... Then there's facebook and the whole social networking thing going on... Or maybe they are just fed up with the small, narrow minded people who have nothing better to do than to harrass, steal or criminally bully other people.

 

But then we get new people every day, some who are reading or lurking in this forum right now. Give them a few months to warm up and post a few lines in here... Then we can scare them away... hehehehe :lol:

I didn't realise what I said was scary, but I guess it could be if people thought I was suggesting that being here attacted monsters under their beds who eventually dissappeared them. :tt2: In any case, scaring lurkers was not my intention.

I have never Critiqued anything here. On a certain other site, I have, and limit such to technical things like balance of composition, or, in one case Ulf's certain body part prop that goes between the legs, was not attached to the body of the figure. OOPS!

I never comment on the subject matter. Never on what I would do, or want. I never look at art in a psychological or psychiatric viewpoint. Why impose something that is not there?

When I do something, it is because I want to do it. So I presume it is the same for other artists.

Slapping brain to remember 3DC stuff, there was a lot of sycophant ooo's and ahhhh's there, too, but there were also gentle critiques. It was a smaller community, and more people were active in the gallery and forums simultaneously. You knew who could do better, and who was not going to improve... and both were accepted. One person might not be technically great, but had wonderful messages or emotion in their images. Another might be devoid of any feeling, but a great technician. Then there were those who were superb at both, but were so prickly it was better to say nothing.

They also had a lot of Mods and Admins who prowled the galleries, and would delete comments they deemed unacceptable.

Here, there are so many artists, you can't possibly know all of them, and you have no clue who you're talking to. It's very easy to wander unintentionally into a "situation". I've even managed to get snarled up making a nice comment. (Dude, I didn't want a best friend, I just liked your render.) ;)

Attached Link: NVIATWAS: the Revelation!

Although this is Poser, it could very well be one of the reasons for declining images overall.  I think Hubert is trying to tell us something by rendering this in Bryce...

Today, I checked out the Bryce gallery. I saw a picture I really liked by Dusklight. It's of a lighthouse in a dark but colorful sky. I wanted to ask him why he did'nt show the light shining from the house and out to sea, but I was afraid to offend him.

I've left helpful comments before and been attacked. I've left nice comments that have been taken the wrong way. So now...I'm very careful where I leave a comment and what I say. And I only leave comments on things I really like...usually. :>)

I think that's why only nice things are said in the galleries.

This is the main point of this thread, to emphasis the matter of the type of comments given on the pictures in the gallery. A person should be able to offer positive feedback without getting backlashed or "flamed" for their opinions about the pictures.

Quite some time (years,cough) ago, I posted to a couple of the more professional sites, with what I thought was a valiant effort at the time. I got my ass handed to me on a silver platter with some very harsh critique, almost in the manner of "what are you doing here" kind of thing. I made a decision then, and to this day I will not critique anyones work unless they specifically ask me to. Some people don't want the insight of others even if it is coming from purely technical standpoint. Some people ask for help because they know there is that "Something" missing from their work. They "want to", and eventually "will" advance their skills and quality through tenacity. Some people use this as a social hobby, and have all their favorite friends acknowledge their existense.

My only pet peeve is genre crossovers, but I'm not going into that today.

All in all, I learn which artists here at Renderosity I enjoy checking out, and sometimes comment. Those which fall into the Happy Hobbyist category, I don't open, and spend my time learning and appreciating art from Striving hobby artists and more so from the semi to Professional group.

Regarding comments... I finally found it again, buried deep in the Gallery:

frogdot's Reply-O-Matic image.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=932153

Maybe we should post it in the Suggestion Forum? ;)

Hubert

Frogdot isn't related to Tsathoggua, is he? ROTFLMAO

On a more serious note, if you get unsavoury comments on your uploads to the gallery please let me or another staffer know or e-mail admin: admin@renderosity.com

I vote we put Frogdot's control panel in the comment box!

I'll admit I've felt stung by some criticism in the past, but after a nice sulk, gone back and tried to fix whatever was pointed out. Ok, sometimes it's just a 'shoot, I was gonna fix that' thing. A lot depends on who made the comment. If their gallery is worse than mine...ffft!

Ok, RodsArt, what do you mean by genre crossover?

Must say I've had sitemails from people asking me to like or comment their work so that they got moved up the charts. and had sitemails in response to constructive critique with upset people, some of them I've commented next time via a sitemail as it was the publicity of the issues that had upset more often then the fact there were issues. Quite comical in a way.

Just to repeat my general view I know my work has huge great holes in it , but I do it for fun, let me know what's wrong and I'll think about (I believe that's normally called Learning :-) :-) )

Personally I'm one of the people that have 'moved on' from the forum, I still come back to lurk or post now and then, for me time for CG has dropped as the kids slowly arrived and have got bigger, I've also switched to Blender and use Bryce very little.

I quite often miss the folks here which is why I come back here, and a few folks are friends on facestalk. I miss the bryce render times so much that I use Indigo render quite a bit, gives me the chance to do some nice 30 hr renders...... :-)

Attached Link: http://personales.ya.com/cafupe/

hello I am a beginner at this from Bryce and I have not uploaded anything to the galleries, but talking about it, we all like to tell us how well we do and some that is not bad but also constructive criticism needed to keep improving our work, I gain nothing telling me how good you are if by tomorrow be associated not get better, that good you and me my friends and family say that unless I understand the issue. Having said that I would like the day I upload something I say "very well, but this and that it could improve in this way" Greetings to all and not give up that way to improve things is not going away and not trying to make more but that others do things the way you think is better and also learn from them.