or

"WOOF!....thats my other dog impression"

LOL! ;)

Quite happy with V4 and all the excellent morphs available for her.

Anyone here get the feeling we may be standing at the crossroads

My main fear with V5, as I think SM will find a way to make her work with Poser, is that if she really is weight-mapped and her base completely androgynous as they say it will be a complete NIGHTMARE to create clothes for her....

"Abba? Swedish? I remember 'em when they were a Lancashire clog-dancing trio - Arthur, Betty, Boris and Angela!"

Weight-mapping will be a huge leap forward for Poser.  :woot:  What else could be so big?  Maybe giving us dynamic hair design tools that don't bite.  Or replacing FireFly with something faster & more better.  Or opening up interactions with the 3D preview to Python and giving us a fast, native vector and matrix library.  Or putting bagginsbill in charge of improving the Materials Room.  But those things won't happen, sadly.  :sad:

Quote - ... I think SM will find a way to make her work with Poser ...

I don't know why most people's first thought is that SM will be behind the curve on V5.
I strongly suspect that the development of the new rigging has been a collaborabtive exercise. > Quote - ... it will be a complete NIGHTMARE to create clothes for her.

The increase in technical difficulty should remove (a lot of) the dross from the bottom end of the market, and allow prices to rise on the quality stuff, so no real downside for DAZ and SM.

If she's a complete nightmare to make things for, wouldn't that deter people from trying to make things and produce fewer vendors?  Maybe there are enough people buying B quality items instead of AAA only to justify a lower end of the market being there. 

Also I don't think that rising prices in this economic time is a good thing for most people.

"I don't know why most people's first thought is that SM will be behind the curve on V5."

really? well since they've said nothing at all offically... (sorry BB does not count as offical, since as he says he can't actually say anything other than cryptic hints...) then the reason for the thinking is pretty obivous... but hey... all they'd have to do is say something and the questioning would stop..... to easy huh?*

Quote - "I don't know why most people's first thought is that SM will be behind the curve on V5."

 

really? well since they've said nothing at all offically... (sorry BB does not count as offical, since as he says he can't actually say anything other than cryptic hints...) then the reason for the thinking is pretty obivous... but hey... all they'd have to do is say something and the questioning would stop..... to easy huh?*

Obviously they're not speaking, quite right. From that you can conclude either they are stupid, or you don't understand everything they're dealing with. Marketing (and commitment) is a tricky thing. Corporate reticence is generally a clue; you have no idea what kind of trouble is possible from speaking too early about plans/efforts/intentions.

For example, if I tell you I'm going to jump the grand canyon on a motorcycle, and then I decide not to because "WTF was I thinking?", I look like a fool. But if I never mention the idea at all, then you don't think less of me when I fail to do it. On the other hand, if I just do the jump, it's all good.

BB? I do understand so take the attitude and shove it please, I'm not playing your ego games.

From what I can remember, when PoserPro was to be introduced (after Poser 7), the Poser development team put out a list of expected features in advance of releasing the software. There were one or two things that they could not get finished in time. They warned their public well in advance of the release about the things they were not going to be able to accomplish. When PP was released, you guessed it, large numbers of people had "missed" the change in projected features and raised a big stink about failure to fulfill the "promises".

As bagginsBill eloquently points out, every few versions the Poser developers have to remind themselves why they keep their mouths shut.

For my part, I use Mina instead of V4.2. I just do not like all the magnets. I do not like the DAZStudio line and will not buy it. So, If DAZ puts out a figure that will not work in the version of Poser that I have, I will not buy it (or its many excessories). And, if I were to stop buying, and FULLY use what I already have in my runtimes, I could wait until Poser 20 and Vickie 15.

Hmmm, looks as if this thread is about ready to be locked.

lmk

Quote - BB? I do understand so take the attitude and shove it please, I'm not playing your ego games.

Magnus, you're hurting my feelings. I didn't mean any harm - just stating what is clearly not the position you're taking but should be because you said it should be "easy" to speak clearly, and that's just wrong.

I generally enjoy reading your posts and have on multiple occasions wanted to congratulate you on entertaining me, and tell you I think we're kindred spirits. Don't start pushing and shoving me just because you've misinterpreted something. If you and I get into a war here, I'm going to be banned. I've been warned too many times by mods, so now I have to treat everybody like they're made of tissue paper. That means you're not seeing one billionth of my ego, which is cosmic in scale, so please don't bring that up again.

This thread will get locked for sure if we start comparing "ego" sizes.

The game is over before it started BB 1:0 MG.

Waitta minute!  Ya can't end the game now.  i ain't done rendering my ego!

Quote - BB? I do understand so take the attitude and shove it please, I'm not playing your ego games.

I'm still failing to see a bad attitude or an ego game. He was simply explaining something (that is very correct, and not very obvious for many people) calmly. I'm gonna assume you either have a case of past quarrels with bb that I don't know of or a very bad case of envy...

V5 or no V5, DS will alway be useless without a bagginsbill "compability".  I'm excited about P9 but I don't see the rush.  I´m glad SM or bagginsbill aren't letting on what they are working on.  I could go crazy waiting for some "brand new" feature for too long.  I'm still enjoying IDL in Poser as a new thing, there's absolutely no rush for new bells and whistles.  But, like Nanette said, I hope SM will give bagginsbill EVERYTHING he wants in the material room ;)

bill didn't actually say it would be called P9 IIRC, but this sheds alotta doubt on my theory that bill and mags were the same person.  anyway, for those on limited budget, my vote would be to buy p9, then wait for free version of V5.

If there is a free version. DAZ is removing the free figures to payed for. They are also raising the pricing of Bryce to double. Not that I really care as I have them all and Bryce just has a soft spot in my heart as it was the very first app demo I tried all those years ago.

Daz is slowly raising the prices of everything there. Maybe that merging of companies has something to do with it? Maybe not but it seems DAZ is tight for money. So it is quite possable that the gen figures won't be free. Or the base will be but what good is the base without the figure morphs. I don't know how they will sell it.

DS4 has a public beta that you can try out that has the base figure and some extra options. At least it would give people a clearer idea of what it's all about. I know. better to guess and assume than try a version of DS.

As a Poser user I am not promoting DS. Just pointing to a way to understand the new system better if you want.

That's why I download early and often...;) In just trying to find characters, hair, yada, and yada from 2 years ago, a lot of it's gone, site and all.

I have the V5 from 4/1...;) May be as close as I ever get...;)

BB - ya hadda go tell 'em...now

    *  I tell you, you tell your friends, before you know it, I'm opening shopping malls - Beetlejuice...;)*

If V5 isn't compatable with Poser, that's fine with me, easthetically I just don't like Vicky at all. She's out of porportion and even though the SM figures aren't perfect, I prefer them waaaaaay more than anything else, Miki2 being my favorite. Besides, I know it may sound strange, but they feel more "real" to me since they're anatomically complete unlike the DAZ models. Anything I want from the Vicky line I convert using Wardrobe Wizard, Texture Converter and the Hair convertion kits so I'm all set on whatever I need, without needing Vicky.

It's a shame that Miki3 was such a dud, but there were a lot of really strange things about her that become glaringly apparent when you use her. Just using the "sit" dial makes some of the polygons on her upper butt go all wacky. How did that get out of QA? Hopefully whatever the new reiteration of Poser is, the new models included are using the latest tech to improve on bending and mimicing real human physics. I can still dream of soft body physics, can't I? :P

Quote - Obviously they're not speaking, quite right. From that you can conclude either they are stupid, or you don't understand everything they're dealing with. Marketing (and commitment) is a tricky thing. Corporate reticence is generally a clue; you have no idea what kind of trouble is possible from speaking too early about plans/efforts/intentions. For example, if I tell you I'm going to jump the grand canyon on a motorcycle, and then I decide not to because "WTF was I thinking?", I look like a fool. But if I never mention the idea at all, then you don't think less of me when I fail to do it. On the other hand, if I just do the jump, it's all good.

As someone who plays/follows MMOs I know firsthand what it's like to have a dev say they are going to do something and then change their minds or fail to deliver.  So they often tend to be tight-lipped until they are really ready to release something.  On the other hand you've got the other extreme were developers aren't talking enough (when it's proper time for them to talk).

Generally speaking, I think that not saying too much too soon is generally the best policy, but not always. 

Another and worse problem is not listening to people (or your core target audience) but as someone from the outside, it's hard to tell who that audience is at times and you don't always know when you aren't being listened to generally until it's too late.

Since SM is in the business to make money, as is daz, and since in reality both of them kind of need the other to keep going, the most logical thing for now is to assume there are at least some kind of communication and actions going on.  So since reality doesn't always follow logic, all we can do is wait and see.

Nancy:

Quote - anyway, for those on limited budget, my vote would be to buy p9, then wait for free version of V5.

I think daz is doing away with free versions and likewise, you need all the morphs and extras to make things work. 

I've had a look round at daz and cannot find any mention of a V5.

Is there some link I have missed?

Quote - I've had a look round at daz and cannot find any mention of a V5.

Is there some link I have missed?

In the commons. It is a stickie so you can't miss it. "DAZ Would you like us to give our suggestions for Victoria 5"

You need to read all the pages or at least the first 10 or so to see the images of V5 but it also explains the system as well.

I would have posted the url but I never know whats allowed here anymore.

"I've been warned too many times.."

I am envious. I have done my utmost to get warned, even to the point of insulting jenx! but all in vain...sigh

You know,  Vicky has threatened to divorce Poser so many times in the last nine years that maybe Poser has decided it's time to let go.

Quote - > Quote - I've had a look round at daz and cannot find any mention of a V5.

Is there some link I have missed?

In the commons. It is a stickie so you can't miss it.

Thanks. It's quite a read ...

S

Attached Link: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=151972

Quote - Why would they shoot themselves in the foot by denying the biggest market they've got?

That's where my line of thinking is, so I'm not worried. Regardless of the changes that Daz3d makes they won't "shoot themselves in the foot" by cutting off a successful market that brings in thousands of dollars of revenue for them.

A sunbeam:

Quote - I've had a look round at daz and cannot find any mention of a V5. Is there some link I have missed?

Try looking at this.  Appearently DAZ  is making a unimesh, unisex base figure and V5, A5, M5, etc will all be morphs of that figure.  Though from what I hear, that's going to make making morphs that work a PITA.

It all looks complicated to me; but I don't use Daz Studio, so I'll wait and see what happens to a V5 for Poser (if it appears).

Quote - Though from what I hear, that's going to make making morphs that work a PITA.

How so?    Are they getting rid of the use of separate actor groups for morphs, or something?

What makes me wonder when I see all those "one figure for all shapes" videos is  texture stretching, will there be a solution for this problem?

From what I remember hearing, the more different a morph is from the base figure, the harder it to make things that look right for it.  I think trying to get the girl 5 out of a gender neutral figure and getting her to look right and all the morphs to work well with her would be a bit of a chore if what I read was true.

Quote - I think trying to get the girl 5 out of a gender neutral figure and getting her to look right and all the morphs to work well with her would be a bit of a chore if what I read was true.

That makes sense.  And the texture stretching thought, too.  Hmm.

I thought it said different maps for different figures to solve stretching. Just like it is now. That thread is a long read. It may have been in the DS forum I read that. Everything is kind of spread out amoung other forums and threads. Little bits here and there.

No groups. That is the whole point of wieght map rigging. Bones are not connected by groups as they are now. This is how the higher end apps do it. I think Carrara does it as well. Don't quote me on that one as I never rig in Carrara. But this is why bending is much better and more natural. As you can see by the images that were posted. The hand grasp looks really good. The way the breasts move with the arm pose. Two things right there that is a common complaint with the figures we use now among many.

I personally think it's a good thing to move up to the more updated tech that really is not all that new by other software/industry standards. IMHO.

Quote - No groups. That is the whole point of wieght map rigging. Bones are not connected by groups as they are now. This is how the higher end apps do it. I think Carrara does it as well. Don't quote me on that one as I never rig in Carrara. But this is why bending is much better and more natural. As you can see by the images that were posted. The hand grasp looks really good. The way the breasts move with the arm pose. Two things right there that is a common complaint with the figures we use now among many.

Right.  I'm all for this bit.  :thumbupboth:

I've been wondering, though, whether some kind of mesh-grouping will be retained, in order to define morph targets somehow.  Now that I try to explain it, I'm not sure it even makes sense.  Hmm.  :unsure:

Quote - What makes me wonder when I see all those "one figure for all shapes" videos is  texture stretching, will there be a solution for this problem?

if every figure is using a different UVs then there is not stretching. you can not use the same UV's for V5 and M5. isnt it the same now with M4 and V4? both have different UV?

Quote - I've been wondering, though, whether some kind of mesh-grouping will be retained, in order to define morph targets somehow. 

Would that not make it easier to morph? True single mesh. No groups to cross over.

 Clothing modeling should be easier too. Yes we will need to learn some new stuff but if it makes it easier to follow morphs or create morphs. That means less work in the long run. This is part of the reason that DAZ showed thier hand. In the first few pages of the V5 thread itwas meantioned how the new system would help with clothing. DAZ jumped in and said that IS how it was going to work and started to show what they have and has the public betas to see for yourself how it works.

So I wonder if Poser is going to have the figure mixer too.

Quote - Would that not make it easier to morph? True single mesh. No groups to cross over.

Yes and no.  In part, I'm wondering how the implementation will impact existing figures, for the purpose of conversion, say.  But say you want to write a Python script which deals with morphs.  You could end up having to iterate over all of the vertices in the mesh, when merely trying to handle the deltas which affect the face.  You'd also have to pull the entire mesh into your morphing utility in order to do any shaping.  For the case of morphs crossing over group lines (assuming there were groups), it would be better.

But what I was imagining wasn't mesh groups as separate actors, split and re-welded, as we have now.  I was thinking that, for the purposes of morphs, groups might still be defined on the un-split geometry to define the actors just for the morphs.  Currently the welding issue is the real problem.  But what I was imagining there doesn't really make much sense to me, when I try to think about it now.  So, again: hmm.

conforming clothing should be easier with good rigging system.

Eventually Daz Studio 4 will be here, better designed, with V5 technology and with plugin from Marvelous designer. The question is only then, what do we need Poser for? A product that has changed owner several times, is currently owned by a company that has a ton of other non CG related products and that haven't updated their archaic documentation for years. The argument that Daz earm money on Poser users doesn't hold water they will switch to ds on the drop of a hat.

@ Cage. I don't know enough about scripts except a bit of hacking and how to use them. Something I should learn in a long list of things to do.

Quote - Eventually Daz Studio 4 will be here, better designed, with V5 technology and with plugin from Marvelous designer. The question is only then, what do we need Poser for? A product that has changed owner several times, is currently owned by a company that has a ton of other non CG related products and that haven't updated their archaic documentation for years. The argument that Daz earm money on Poser users doesn't hold water they will switch to ds on the drop of a hat.

Yet none of that can turn any .obj into dynamic as poser's clothroom. It just makes it a little closer to what Posers is. Besides the plug can't be made until after DS4 is finished. So you are looking at even a longer time after that. It will be a good thing for DS users when it does happen.

Fact. DAZ has done dick with documentation themselves. Promises but never produce.

Not sure what you are saying about DAZ and Poser users. Are you saying that DAZ is wrong in thinking that Poser users will switch to DS or that the aurgument does not hold water because Poser users will switch to DS at the drop of a hat.

I for one can't stand the DS UI. So dropping Poser is not an option for me as well as with many other Poser users. Adding DS to my tool box is an option for the benifit of better tech figures.

It is also going to depend on what SM brings to the table in the new version of Poser. It looks like we will not know what that is until they release it. Just hints and rumours which mean nothing until it is actually out for us to make our own minds up about it.

Quote - Eventually Daz Studio 4 will be here, better designed, with V5 technology and with plugin from Marvelous designer. The question is only then, what do we need Poser for? A product that has changed owner several times, is currently owned by a company that has a ton of other non CG related products and that haven't updated their archaic documentation for years. The argument that Daz earm money on Poser users doesn't hold water they will switch to ds on the drop of a hat.

Well, personally - now that i finally have a handle on it - I much prefer a dynamic cloth sytem that doesn't depend on one vendor's mesh (Optitex). That's just a bit too incestuous for my liking. I like the idea I can make my mesh in Blender or Wings or bloody-whatever-I-like and have it all work in my posing app.

Quote - The question is only then, what do we need Poser for?

For all its flaws, Poser remains more open and flexible than D|S.  Personally, I like Poser's material room.  If Poser development stopped today and D|S continued moving forward, I'd remain a Poser loyalist, using the old software until it stopped working on some future OS.  :laugh:

Possibly some of us just need Poser, without needing if for anything, per se.  :lol:

Quote - Eventually Daz Studio 4 will be here, better designed, with V5 technology and with plugin from Marvelous designer. The question is only then, what do we need Poser for? A product that has changed owner several times, is currently owned by a company that has a ton of other non CG related products and that haven't updated their archaic documentation for years. The argument that Daz earm money on Poser users doesn't hold water they will switch to ds on the drop of a hat.

Buy a plugin for a program that I also have to pay for and that I can only use IT to make dynamic cloth when I can do it in Poser in any old modeling program? Drop Poser and switch to DS at the drop of a hat? You maybe - not me...lol.

Laurie

The reason there is no consensus about almost anything here in the poser forum is because we are talking from different viewpoints. Most people want to use Poser to create illustrations. Nothing wrong with that but a few (bigbraader, London224 come to mind) try to use Poser as a tool in the workflow for serious art. Anyone who has tried to do a studie of something by Bouguereau or Waterhouse know how utterly ridiculous it is to claim that you can make clothing like this in Poser, dynamic or not. (in any reasonable time that is) Marvelous Designer is the first breakthrough (a beginning) to real art. Clothing is the first and main obstacle.

Quote - The reason there is no consensus about almost anything here in the poser forum is because we are talking from different viewpoints. Most people want to use Poser to create illustrations. Nothing wrong with that but a few (bigbraader, London224 come to mind) try to use Poser as a tool in the workflow for serious art. Anyone who has tried to do a studie of something by Bouguereau or Waterhouse know how utterly ridiculous it is to claim that you can make clothing like this in Poser, dynamic or not. (in any reasonable time that is) Marvelous Designer is the first breakthrough (a beginning) to real art. Clothing is the first and main obstacle.

My issue with applications like MD and Optitex are the fact that they are pricey, deliver a specific type of mesh and are designed for a specific market. Well, this is what I see. I don't see a lot of folk spending $800 for this sort of tool... it would be those who really want to work in this medium and don't have an issue with the pricetag. For that price, i can get modo.

For hobbyists like myself, Poser represents the top of the application heap: that's what I model for, write scripts for (matmatic/Python) and now, play with dynamic cloth in and (eventually) will rig for. I use it as my scene creation tool, to export via Pose2Lux for rendering, or Octane. I'm not made of money, so I really like the idea of free. Or inexpensive. Bender is free. So is Wings. So is LuxRender and so is Pose2Lux. To buy an application that costs more than this core app for an arguably "superior" product takes away the hobbyist perspective.

A tool doesn't define quality the of a product: the modeller does. I've seen superb mesh developed is extremely simple freebie mesh tools, and utter rubbish created in high-end modelling apps ($7000 / seat licence). What will define better-looking clothing for Poser is a shift away from conforming cloth, which might imply a re-do of the cloth-room interface so that the challenged (like me) might find it a better place to venture. I can say that now because - thanks to KobaltKween, the penny has dropped and I've finally "got it". And the images I'm rendering are substantially better.

But no question dynamic cloth seemed an overwhelming challenged: it was. Now, rigging is next.

I quite like the product we have now, to be honest. There's still much to learn and explore.