Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1057072&user_id=117649&page=3&member&np

I'd like a shot at that challenge with PPro2012 sss and dynamic hair. Zbrush required for the texture though.

This was Poser 6 with no hair shadows.. caused crashes

Quote - Saved - thank you!

Me too!!!

Quote - . Not dreck:

http://www.raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/imagePage?iid=6782

Jeebus! How many frickin' months did that guy spend lacing that thing together!?

( ...the cap could use a displacement map, tho' )

Quote -  But to hear him pontificate over what is art or not is rather comical, because of Taste and Style he knows nothing. 

...and neither do you, and neither do I, and neither does any other swinging Richard on the planet. 

Sorta how it goes, no? 

Quote - Vintorix - thanks for the link to raph. I have not seen those images before. I love it.

Not dreck:

http://www.raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/imagePage?iid=6782

Does your stuff (not Vintorix, I mean all the readers of this thread) even begin to stand next to that? We're doodling hobbyists - get over it.

No one can deny that this is beautiful art! I am extremely impressed! I saw the one> http://www.raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/imagePage?iid=6772 in a magazine like Heavy Metal I believe. And was just blown away! Makes me want Z-Brush!

~A~

."..and neither do you, and neither do I, and neither does any other swinging Richard on the planet"

I am sure you wished that was true mr political correct. BTW I heared that a unix administrator in Massachusetts got a date. Is that true?

?

Raph.com is a great gallery. I think it is the inverse of that "99 percent of everything is crap" ratio.

Caveman 1: Nice buffalo you painted.
Caveman 2: Thanks, yours looks good, too; i was not aware you were part of the hunting party, though.
Caveman 1: You noticed correct, indeed i wasn't. I started painting my buffallo aready when you were still out there hunting it.
Caveman 2: That is not right, you are not allowed to paint a buffalo if you did not hunt one. The painting of a buffalo represents and expresses the amount of work required to hunt it. Wait! How did you even get the blood for it? You mentioned that you started painting while i was hunting it, so the buffalo was still alive at that time, so how did you get the blood?
Caveman 1: I didn't. I used rabbit blood.
Caveman 2: But that is impossible. You cannot paint a buffalo with rabbit blood. You can only paint a rabbit with rabbit blood. So your painting is not a buffalo, it is a rabbit! And for a rabbit there is very little resemblance, i must say. You did a very bad job here.
Caveman 1: I don't care. What counts is the result, and for the looks of it my painting is just as good as yours. Nobody will notice that it is not made of buffalo. In 5000 years or so, they will still enjoy these paintings, even when our own actions we did in order to create them are long forgotten.
Caveman 2: And this is where you are wrong. The art is in creating the image, not in the image itself. Hunting a buffalo takes years of learning and experience, if you had you done it yourself you would know that and see it the same way. Just everybody could kill a rabbit and use it's blood for painting.
Caveman 1: Erm, i did not actually kill the rabbit, i bartered it in exchange for an arrow head.
Caveman 2: ....

Unfortunately the rest of the clay plate is unreadable, but it appears the conversation got rather heated from that point on. Yet i think it is enough to bring up some important questions:
1-Which caveman is right? I have no idea, but i think both of them have very strong points.
2-How could CG art hold up in such an argument, would it matter if it was done with 3ds max or Poser?
3-Did those cavemen evolve at all?

Quote - Whoops - I found some dreck at raph.

http://www.raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/imagePage?iid=6732

So you get something beautifully made, and just because of the theme you consider it a failure?

I am a dreck myself then, because fantasy women are my passion.

Quote - > Quote - Whoops - I found some dreck at raph.

http://www.raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/imagePage?iid=6732

So you get something beautifully made, and just because of the theme you consider it a failure?

I am a dreck myself then, because fantasy women are my passion.

Sorry - I am prone to make sarcasm without turning on the neon sign announcing it.

It's a nice picture. My comment was ironic, meant to be humor given the context of being in the Poser forum. Vintorix, the delusional pontiff pot who calls the kettle black, said that by definition, nothing at raph is dreck. The image in question was, IMO, indistinguishable from a Poser NVIATWAS, thus demonstrating the absurdity of any argument.

Show the raph "dreck" and the rendo "dreck" to my wife and she won't know the difference, nor care. She doesn't "get" the idea of beautiful, lithe women with impossibly heavy swords no matter how you made it.

Edited to add: Or battling orcs in high heels and a dress, for that matter. Or naked.

I just looked at it more closely. There are feathers flying in that image. Was she battling chickens?

I love the comments about it at CGTalk:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=917571

Quote - A true female warrior that's not running into battle with a thong and bra only to be posing unscathed by the "battle" she was supposed to be in.

Really? True warrior? In a dress and high heels?

Apparently lots of people can write stupid things.

Quote - Maybe it looks really strange but I believe that the creator supports a more feminine style, simply by adding high heels!! Keep working!!

Right - but why stop there? Us Poser users found the right formula - bra and panties!

Quote - It's a nice picture. My comment was ironic, meant to be humor given the context of being in the Poser forum. Vintorix, the delusional pontiff pot who calls the kettle black, said that by definition, nothing at raph is dreck. The image in question was, IMO, indistinguishable from a Poser NVIATWAS, thus demonstrating the absurdity of any argument.

It's kinda hard to know when you're being sarcastic, as you always post with a "style" that in my head makes you look so serious. It's ok though, I'll get used to it.

But that IS distinguishable from a Poser NVIATWAS... the woman has CLOTHING! (OH NOES! D: )

But you know what? This was funny, I'll call myself a dreck. Just for the lolz.

Quote - I just looked at it more closely. There are feathers flying in that image. Was she battling chickens?

Might be a cockatrice... Sorry, roleplayer here LOL

Perhaps the artist thought to add feathers to give that ethereal, innocent look... and forgot falling feathers only give that impression on angels.

Quote - I'd like to see men running around a battle field in 6inch heels! There not only impractical but very painful to walk in for any length of time... imagine tip toeing across red hot coals!
Women generally wear high heels to look more attractive, so is she trying to win by seducing her enemy? As a virgin St.  I'm not sure this fit's with the character of Jeanne D'arc.
But that aside it's a lovely image, nice detail in her outfit.

We know it's art. It prompted lots of heated discussion - emotional even - regarding men in heels. Any reaction is a good reaction - that's art! We suffer when we are ignored.

Quote - But that IS distinguishable from a Poser NVIATWAS... the woman has CLOTHING! (OH NOES! D: )

You're correct, of course.

Quote - ."..and neither do you, and neither do I, and neither does any other swinging Richard on the planet"

I am sure you wished that was true mr political correct.

It is true, by simple logic:

No one person is capable of determining good taste, since each person pretty much has their own subtle variant of multiple cultural tastes, often in combination - one only has to find the nearest radio dial, television channel guide, or magazine rack to prove it. Quod Erat Demonstrandum, baby... ;)

Quote - BTW I heared that a unix administrator in Massachusetts got a date. Is that true?

Dunno - I'll have to ask my wife. She keeps track of the social bits far better than I. :p

At least we know now the feeling the romans had in 410 when the barbarians sacked Rome and went around in the city baffled by the artwork.

A quote from the other thread posted in 2008 describing Poser "it is really a supporting application only (that is incredibly simple in itself to use)".

Now I am upset, I was trying to use Poser in 2008 and found it hard.  Although my renders may have improved they are still not anywhere near what anyone would call art.  Even more upsetting I still don't find Poser easy in 2011.... Poser 2012 will change all this won't it?

Quote "We're doodling hobbyists - get over it."

Guilty as charged but it passes the time between bouts of reality.

Quote - At least we know now the feeling the romans had in 410 when the barbarians sacked Rome and went around in the city baffled by the artwork.

 

Different context.  Everyone here has had some exposure to art of one form or another.  The Barbarians didn't have any kind of framework by which to judge the artwork in Rome.  We do.  Even BB who is a self confessed non artist has some context.

Your argument that one image must be crap because it's relatively easy to produce is complete tosh, btw.  Ease - or the lack thereof - is not by itself a criterion by which to judge the artistic worth of something.  

In any case, I subscribe to Peng's opinion on this one; it's impossible for me or thee to state what is great art. 

Quote - Recently i accidently uncovered a cave with some ancient paintings of some rather ugly looking buffaloes on the wall together with an old withered clay plate that apparently was used by a bystander to engrave a conversation onto it; here a translation of what could be recovered from it into modern english:

Caveman 1: Nice buffalo you painted.
Caveman 2: Thanks, yours looks good, too; i was not aware you were part of the hunting party, though.
Caveman 1: You noticed correct, indeed i wasn't. I started painting my buffallo aready when you were still out there hunting it.
Caveman 2: That is not right, you are not allowed to paint a buffalo if you did not hunt one. The painting of a buffalo represents and expresses the amount of work required to hunt it. Wait! How did you even get the blood for it? You mentioned that you started painting while i was hunting it, so the buffalo was still alive at that time, so how did you get the blood?
Caveman 1: I didn't. I used rabbit blood.
Caveman 2: But that is impossible. You cannot paint a buffalo with rabbit blood. You can only paint a rabbit with rabbit blood. So your painting is not a buffalo, it is a rabbit! And for a rabbit there is very little resemblance, i must say. You did a very bad job here.
Caveman 1: I don't care. What counts is the result, and for the looks of it my painting is just as good as yours. Nobody will notice that it is not made of buffalo. In 5000 years or so, they will still enjoy these paintings, even when our own actions we did in order to create them are long forgotten.
Caveman 2: And this is where you are wrong. The art is in creating the image, not in the image itself. Hunting a buffalo takes years of learning and experience, if you had you done it yourself you would know that and see it the same way. Just everybody could kill a rabbit and use it's blood for painting.
Caveman 1: Erm, i did not actually kill the rabbit, i bartered it in exchange for an arrow head.
Caveman 2: ....

Unfortunately the rest of the clay plate is unreadable, but it appears the conversation got rather heated from that point on. Yet i think it is enough to bring up some important questions:
1-Which caveman is right? I have no idea, but i think both of them have very strong points.
2-How could CG art hold up in such an argument, would it matter if it was done with 3ds max or Poser?
3-Did those cavemen evolve at all?

 
LOL!!! I loved this! The indignation of caveman 2 was palpable! Did you make this  
up yourself? If so you are wonderfully talented with the gift of laughter. I guess  
we all paint with rabbits blood to some extent or another. It's just that poser artists  
admit it.  
 
 
Ariana

Admit it and admire it. In fact, as a general rule, are we not impressed when somebody shows us an easier and faster way to do something?

"Easier and Faster" would be music to the ears of most comissioning art editors...!

Quote - "Easier and Faster" would be music to the ears of most comissioning art editors...!

And most peeps waiting for SSS or hair to render :biggrin:

"Even BB who is a self confessed non artist has some context.."

It is hard to believe but if you say so..

Facepalm

Fuck me, do you ever give it a rest?

your expecting vintorix to stop arguing? my god man... you know that will never happen...

Quote - Fuck me, do you ever give it a rest?

Not ever....lol

Laurie

bill,  can ya do one of those pearls with opalescent subsurface fx?

wait a bit - I just got it: the reason everybody hates cgsociety is that they reject stuff that would be amongst the best of the stuff at 'rosity, which in its kindness don't reject anything, excepting some porno or maybe violence or kiddie stuff.

To be fair to all concerned ... The major Poser users here ARE hobbiests and they admit it. So ... we arein't refering to them in this respect, this thread.

But to be real, you have to understand how CGS is set up.  There are 3d forums, 2d forums, illustration .... figure drawing .... all sorts of subcategories.  WITHIN each catagory there are pre-conseptions as to how a project is approached and sometimes it does get a bit elitist.

Now also realize that CGS IS a commercial site too ... they control Balistic Books and numerous tutorials on 3d disign. They do cater to users who eather are a part of the major industry companies (i.e. Pixar, ILM, Disney ... ) or aspire to such positions.  These people primarily use the higher end products or pre-priatory products designed in-house. As I said earlier, even the 2d forums have higher standards.  No tracing (you use the traditional grid system, they would not approve of Vemeer's camera-obscurer or James Bama's slide projector (yes he used that for his works, he told me personally in a discussion similar to this but refering to traditional art rather than digital) This just exemplifies that Poser isn't the only thing targeted. In 2d paintings ... they want proof that it isn't just a Photoshop trace and filter piece.

Please remember that Steven Stahlberg admits to using Poser as a tool and dismisses the contriversy and trivial (implying as said before more people there use it and won't admit it as it isn't obvious in the finished render.)  He isn't the only one, I'm sure.

We have to own our failings as it were to in that how many NVIATWAS variations we DO have and that to the professional market sort of devalues the work here, (By thier "standards")  Like the images as many of us do, it's a fact. Second point here is that many use "canned" figures, poses, sets, props, cameras and lights ... that's what is sold here, it's encouraged. It pays the store. This is not a criticism ... it's how we do our pieces for the most part here. We have a wonderful affection for this one artistic tool.  This is what puts us in the "hobbiest" catagory.

another point is ... there is always hypcracy ... We could argue that there are premade human, animal and prop models (free and purchased) in many of the works at CGS to get the scene that they want.  They don't design their own architacture, sky, atmosphere or vegetation and landscapes in Vue for the most part, yet that isn't criticized.  The same goes for Maya (et el) to a much lesser degree, since many create and design thier own content there ... I'm sure there are purhcased/freebie items added as well. I could go on, but you get my point.  There are purists there and here who see the whole picture from the other's point of view.  It's all in one's personal perspective (ironic since we are taling about 3d here).

Let's not just fight and argue every year over this issue.  It is.  It has it's views and we could just shrug and enjoy what we do. 

:)

Boni

Quote - At least we know now the feeling the romans had in 410 when the barbarians sacked Rome and went around in the city baffled by the artwork.

Hope you don't get a nosebleed at that altitude... you might ruin that gold-threaded toga, and it looks expensive. Also wouldn't want all that ivory under your feet to get blood-stained; I hear it's a raging PITA to clean. :/

Quote - Really? True warrior? In a dress and high heels?

Covered: http://www.cracked.com/article_18591_the-5-most-impractical-aspects-superhero-costumes.html

Quote - Apparently lots of people can write stupid things.

Especially when they're typing one-handed, methinks...

Turn the argument around and think that some folks like BagginsBill choose a more challenging app like Poser to create their own effects rather than having a cadillac app like 3d Max that can do everything for you if you pay enough money or go to school to get a license... apps most people cannot afford basically unless they pay a tuition.

For a true artist, wouldn't a limited app pose more of a challenge?

Could Stonemason make his masterpieces using only Poser? If painted into a corner, I believe he could. He'd figure a way to do it - i believe. It's the impulse, the desire, the hunger to create... more than the app.

That said, most folks use Poser by using premade characters and clothes and shaders and poses and lights... and MOST POSER USERS never read these forums and don't give a f*ck what anyone other than gallery goers think about what they're doing.

This is the primary thing I think folks inside and outside Poser don't get.

Folks who are posting to the galleries right now don't read this forum bullsh*t. They don't even pay attention to the most eloquently written forum posts... they don't read us at all.

They post their renders and move on with their lives.

That is the beauty of Poser.

You don't need to cut off your ear and send it to your lover for her to appreciate Poser as much as you do. You just render your daily fantasy and share with your friends in the gallery.

You don't have to paint or sculpt or know photography or have to know how BagginsBill's shaders work or own a $4000 app... you just render your fantasy and share it with your friends.

That's all.

That's it.

Nothing more.

They are not reading all these well thought out posts.

Great tread, guys and gals

..and well said Coleman. I think you capped it.

Quote - Turn the argument around and think that some folks like BagginsBill choose a more challenging app like Poser to create their own effects rather than having a cadillac app like 3d Max that can do everything for you if you pay enough money or go to school to get a license... apps most people cannot afford basically unless they pay a tuition.

For a true artist, wouldn't a limited app pose more of a challenge?

LOL, definitely not, even more on a professional level.
That's like "look at that tree - I could cut it down with a chainsaw, but I'll do it wit my pocket knife. That's more challenging!"
The only excuse for using limited apps is because you can't/won't use, learn or afford anything better.

Quote - Could Stonemason make his masterpieces using only Poser? If painted into a corner, I believe he could. He'd figure a way to do it - i believe. It's the impulse, the desire, the hunger to create... more than the app.

His works reqiure modelling, uv mapping and texture work.
I wonder how he'd manage that in Poser.

I think Coleman has it more elequantly than I could do for sure ... As far as the comment about Stonemason ... it may not have been ment quite so literally but more metaphorically. of course there are real limitations.  It's the concept that is ment here. Gimp and Steve Cox's UV Mapper could fill in the blanks and cost nothing.  We of the Poser Community want to share our Fantasies here.  Go for it.  The rest doesn't matter.  That's the point.

Unless you are trying to be "respected" by a particular group it doesn't really matter. Then you need to re-evaluate how you do your work.  IF you are happy with what you are doing, then they don't matter.  It's that simple.

Good perspective!

Boni

Quote - That said, most folks use Poser by using premade characters and clothes and shaders and poses and lights... and MOST POSER USERS never read these forums and don't give a f*ck what anyone other than gallery goers think about what they're doing.

'zackly. 

Dirty little secret time... most people who have Maya/LW/Max/Modo installed got theirs via the Pirate Bay, and don't give a f*ck about how to use it properly either... if it gets used at all.

Quote - Folks who are posting to the galleries right now don't read this forum bullsh*t. They don't even pay attention to the most eloquently written forum posts... they don't read us at all.

That holds true for 99.99999% of all CG artists, tinkerers, and such - no matter what program they use. shrug

Quote -
The only excuse for using limited apps is because you can't/won't use, learn or afford anything better.

Let me pop out a parallel for you, if I may. I'm also going to pretend to be the stylized CGS member...

ahem

==

The only excuse for using Windows is because you can't/won't use or learn any better. (Since Linux is free, I took money out of the equation). 

I can make a UNIX box do your laundry if I want to. I can write custom code if needed. I clear six figures a year making various UNIX variants bend to my will**, helping others to do so, and by insuring that people in the professional world get what they want. To me, it's actually fun.

Meanwhile, you Windows users, with your puny little bug-ridden OS, are merely a part of the unwashed masses. You have no fscking idea what a real OS can do, do you?

Oh, you wrote an app? Cool - let's see the code.  Wait! You used Visual Studio and .NET to write that!? Gah! - how pedestrian, and what a limited little hobbyist language! When are you going to learn how to write real code? You'll never be a true programmer until you can cget your code accepted to kernel.org you worthless prole! Go back to code school and get out of my sight!

==

** actually, that sentence is true, if you add "Windows" alongside "UNIX". :)

The point is, not everyone has the time, desire, or effort to blow our entire lives on doing this art thing. Certainly if my paycheck depended on my modeling/rendering/compositing skills, I'd definitely be all over it and learn more.

OTOH, I chose to focus instead on those things the CGS critters actually use to make their money. My wife demands to be paid attention to at least once a day or so (I know - rude, right?). My dog has to go poop multiple times a day, and a mesh-made poop bag won't pick up the mess (no matter how you subdivide it). My manager would seriously frown on my sculpting edge loops during meetings. The local parish priest has this thing about insisting that no one bring a computer with them to Mass. It's hard to push a grocery cart and balance a laptop at the same time. Waterproof laptops that hold up to a shower aren't really around yet. 

I think y'all know what I'm getting at... it's that 'life' thing that keeps most folks from being this big CG pro. OTOH, in spite of all that, sometimes some folks manage to come up with some rather fantastic shit, even with a limited CG app and no real time to spare.  Curious how that happens, isn't it?

Quote - I think y'all know what I'm getting at... it's that 'life' thing that keeps most folks from being this big CG pro. OTOH, in spite of all that, sometimes some folks manage to come up with some rather fantastic shit, even with a limited CG app and no real time to spare.  Curious how that happens, isn't it?

This.  Even when I was a full time CG pro it was impossible to keep up with everything. 

<--- hobbyist.  If I were an artist, I would use a brush.

Penguinisto, more people would listen to you if you said one single thing that is not old recycled leftist cliches from the past.  Don't mind if it is true or false. (1) original idea is all I ask.

Leftist? PENGY!?!?!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Isn't this the place where the villan is in handcuffs and cursing those pesky kids in the Mystery van and their damn dog?

Quote -  if you said one single thing that is not old recycled leftist cliches from the past.

Someone reads a post in which the author explicitly admits to being full-on Catholic, and reads "leftist" in it.

He then utterly fails to do even the most cursory research of a guy with the most unique 'nym on the entire frickin' Internet, but thinks "leftist". 

Just... wow.

I mean, how exactly does one react to such titanic stupidity? It's like discovering a septic tank the size of Lake Michigan suddenly appearing in the neighborhood dog park.

Thats it. Someone needs to call The American Chemical society. Gentlemen, I believe I've just discovered a new element on the Periodic Table that is denser than Osmium and Iridium, combined. The only hard part is explaining how it's comprised of the half-firing neurons inside an elitist mesh-monger's skull. :/

Is it a sin to lust in your heart after polygons?

Sin? May want to consult a psychiatrist before consulting a priest. ;)

I just thought it was ironic that someone who frequents Render-otica and possibly has sold pose sets there identifies himself as Catholic. Not that I have a problem with that.

Even though vintorix was wrong to leap to assumptions about your political beliefs, I can't help noting that some Catholics have been leftist to the extreme.