I had this plan, see. i was going to write a lengthy, eloquent and accurate post suggesting that specific details rather than vague accusatiions might help, because I haven't seen anything like...oh. Crap. Actually I HAVE seen some pretty heavy-handed and frankly incompetant moderating at DAZ lately, so I guess I DO know something of what you folks are discussing. Hmm...

There are legit reasons to remove posts-like breaking the TOS by reposting to get attention "look at me, LOOK AT ME!!!" style (in the same way that DAZ should ban leading "!" characters in products they sell). But on reflection I realise that they HAVE been deleting at least some posts for little to no reason. Whimsical post deletion isn't funny, and the way they handle complaints about post deletion is excruciatingly poor.

I mean - telling you that a post got deleted and you'll be told why if it gets reinstated? Really? What about telling you what was in the post? If quoted back, MAYBE you could repost it minus the offending part. But the blank "it's gone, it wasn't your post but your post was in proximity to one we didn't like" really is the most cackhanded excuse I've ever read.

So, yeah, some kind of sign of comprehension of the problems would be good. I think Rand said something.

Thanks to pengy for pointing out that when we're not screaming about the daz forums being unfair we tend to be screaming about the rendo forums being unfair. I've never frequented anywhere else enough to consider them unfrair, but I guess it's a general thing with forums.

Now...to see if I can go find wherfe Rand has responded to criticisms of the forum...

Both here and at the DAZ forums, the same things are being discussed, but with slightly different results.  Here, warnings that things might be getting out of hand, DAZ, another locked thread.  Impossible to really tell if it was getting too heated, or if it was starting to grate on a raw nerve because it addressed points that DAZ really would rather not discuss. 

One point that I, and many others have brought out, DS has no documentation.  Depending on a wiki or YouTube and the users to do what should have been done internally and before the program was released is just passing the buck.  Like saying "Okay, those that have stumbled across the fumble pile and figured it out can tell you, so we don't have to."  Fine for freeware, but when DS4pro and PP2012 are only a few dollars apart, totally unacceptable. 

Granted, DAZ is probably tired of hearing the same old complaints, which brings up the question of why aren't those matters being addressed?  There are problems with installers, there are problems with some instabilities in the program which I can understand DAZ can't look inside every computer and know the exact configuration it has to work with. 

One area  of particular interest and irritation, dynamic cloth, which I know they're probably tired of hearing about.  That doesn't negate the fact that a single vendor source of dynamic cloth is totally unacceptable. 

Another area, a bug fix isn't just a bug fix, it's a complete new version, and the necessity to relearn where the different functions are hidden this time.

Genesis shows some capability, but still gives me the impression it was rushed to release before it was really ready to be released.  As it comes, doing much beyond a classic  T pose and letting it go at that is going to require healthy injections of the coin of the realm.  More expensive than the Gen 4 figures, and still with problems that haven't, and in my guess, probably won't be addressed.  Third parties will be doing this.  Again, unacceptable. 

Poser has come a long way since P5, when I got started with it.  P5 wouldn't even run without the updates.  PP2012 seems to be stable, I haven't crashed it yet, not that I haven't tried.  It also isn't a new version three or four times a year, but more like every couple of years, which is fine.  It tells me the changes are thought out, the bugs looked at and most caught before it's released.  Nobody should have to point at the contrast.

Oh - one quck comment on the futility of questions like "Why on Earth would they...". When people do things that seem stupid (and I am NOT saying that DAZ are deliberately censoring everyones negative opinions) figuring out what the motivation is can seem impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't a motive - only that we don't know what it is.

To give a real-world example that is not "I know a guy who said a cousin twice removed..." but that happened to me... postmen. Some while ago I complained to our local post office about ninja postmen who seem to kreep up to the door silently, slip through a card saying "we tried to deliver, pick it up from our depot", and then run hell-for-leather away from the door.

I do not have a dog, so it's not fear of Hound of the Baskervilles.

The post-office responded that their postmen have the objective of delivering post, and brushed my complaint aside on the basis of the question "what POSSIBLE motive could they have to NOT want to deliver your package?". At the time, I could come up with no plausable excuse, yet I knew that they had put in little to no effort to deliver to me, because I had been in the whole day - indeed, I picked the card out of my letterbox an hour before the time it had written on it as the "time of attempted delivery".

It wasn't many weeks later that we had an item on our news channel about disgruntled postmen who were considering striking action. It seems that cost-cutting exercises had been implemented which meant that postmen had more work to do in less time, for less pay - and some said they simply couldn't get their rounds done to the schedule, so they got penalised.

Of course, they COULD get round their beats a bit quicker if they didn't stop for people to come to the door, because waiting for people to come from a whole room or two away takes time when you're on the clock like that. And that's what had been happening - still happens, actually. When a postie needs to make up time, they don't wait for you to get to the door - they post a note and legit, so their pay doesn't get docked and their job isn't under threat (and I don't have me package). Once I understood what the motivation was, it was easy to see WHY it was being done - but before knowing the ins-and-outs of the changes to the postal service, I honestly didn't have a clue - it seemd a ludicrous thing for a postman to do - NOT deliver post. Bizzarre, and therefore unlikely.

So - DAZ censoring posts or people for no really valid reason? It seems unlikely, on the face of it, and the motivation appears to be missing. But it may only appear that way to anyone that it hasn't happened to.

Personally, I got the impression that they wanted Genesis out well before Poser Po 2012, so that pushed release a bit sooner than might have been wise. But that's just a cynical personal opinion.

DS4 was a completely new version coz it has completely new tech in it. Therefore, it had to be built from the ground up to support the new tech. They prolly altered the UI because people voiced their dislike for the old one (or maybe they had to coz of how profound the core code changed - Ill leave that up to DAZ to answer) Me personally, I like the new UI better.... although, there are things that still don't sit well with me, too. Sad part is, what works for some tho, doesn't work well for others.

The only way DAZ can know tho, what works for people, is to hear their feedback. I don't think its anyone's intention to put a cap on it. But as much as people have seen what they feel is unfair censoring, I have also seen some pretty angsty posts with venom spewed in DAZ's general direction. If it were my forum? Yeah, I would stop that sort of thing, too. It's not professional, and can scare away other patrons.

As for Poser 2010 ... yeah its stable. But the bugs don't start showing up til you start really working in it and esp developing in it lol Like Poses... it was doing some really weird crap to me, where it would distort the body into some fandangled position after saving them... adding all this needless extra coding. It kept locking my actors on me out of nowhere, so midway thru working in a scene, I could not move the head, for example. All of that was fixed in 2012... but I had to spend 130$ to get the fix.

There's also a bug since 2010 that hasnt been fixed as of yet - where it renders a grid on the backfaces of something one-sided, if you have normals set forward and only IF you are using AO in the scene (shut it off, the grid goes byebye) Actually, AFAIK that will be fixed in the next service release. But it kinna makes me wonder why it took 2 major releases and numerous service releases to fix the issue...

Well, the answer.... sometimes it just takes time to get all the bugs worked out. A program is a pretty extensive and convoluted thing, with lots of parts and intermeshing of code. And this is especially problematic when multiple computer configurations are involved. I mean.... its a lot like chemistry. Certain chemicals mixed with certain other chemicals, can be perfectly fine.... mix them with others, and they explode.

At Who -- yes, I can see your point lol the mail men went postal! lol What I mean tho is, there is no leverage DAZ has being here discussing this stuff. If it was all about wanting to censor the masses, then the last place they'd go to do this, would be at a site where they have no control and no ability to censor anyone. I am sure there are reasons for it... one for certain being, trying to quell the fears and upset of the masses, as well as dispelling some heinous rumors that are flying about.

Quote - ... it seemd a ludicrous thing for a postman to do - NOT deliver post. Bizzarre, and therefore unlikely.

They should have given him the sack.

I do generally like to keep an open mind, which is what I have mostly done so far with Genesis.  I mostly these days use Poser Pro 2012 and Vue 7 Inf or Vue 9 Complete, and like many Poser users I do feel somewhat left out at Daz lately.  However, the reassurances from Dan Farr have been something that I decided to listen to, and take a "wait and see" attitude towards their getting Genesis working in Poser.

Having tried Daz Studio in the 0.x versions, and later in version 2, I have never liked it.  Yesterday though, I decided to download DS4 and give the new program and Genesis a try.  Having tried it for a couple of hours, I do think that Genesis is a good figure with a lot of potential.  DS4 has a better interface than the last time I used DS (I think in version 3) - particularly in terms of being able to find your content.  My main disagreement with the program is still the posing tools / interface though.

A few things though have really annoyed me with Daz lately though.  One of them is this thread.  All credit to Randall for coming here to talk, which is a positive for Daz.  But the answers to people's concerns over installers are a prime example of why people like myself are spending less time and money over at Daz.  Despite many people posting that they don't like the current installers and they definitely don't want a download system similar to Steam, they are basically told that they don't understand how wonderful this new system will be so we're going to go ahead with it anyway.  Asking people for their opinions and then ignoring those opinions just frustrates people. This then becomes a negative for Daz.

Now onto today's frustration.  Daz has created a new Poser forum.  Again, a positive for Daz in the eyes of Poser users.  This morning though, I posted in a thread in the Nuts and Bolts section helping a new Poser user.  I come back from work to check the thread and can't find it.  Eventually I do a search for my own recent posts and find the thread has been moved into the Poser forum because apparently, it's a "Pure Poser" question.

So are we now to believe that any discussion of Poser at all has to be conducted in our own little corner of the Daz forums?  Nuts & Bolts has traditionally been a place to discuss technical issues which might include lighting or render settings.  Poser threads are apparently no longer welcome there - which goes against what we are being told about how Poser users are still welcomed and valued at Daz.

From reading all of this thread over the past couple of days, and various threads over at Daz, I would say Randall that the best advice you could pass on to Daz is that they need to set some definite guidelines for their own moderators.  Others have suggested some training in customer relations.  The problems with moderation on the Daz forums is highlighted by the fact that this discussion is taking place here and Renderosity - because many of the people posting their opinions and discussing things with you here are either banned from the Daz forums or don't go there because they no longer feel welcome.  Get the customer relations right (and the Daz forums are the "face" of Daz that most people see, and people will be more understanding.

Quote - Here's something intereting -

As you might have seen I'm running an unofficial survey regarding the recent content issue (mostly to satisfy some curiosity) - see link above. Yesterday I found out that there's a new Poser page at Daz3D and posted a link to said survey. To make it fair I also posted the same message to the Daz Studio forum.

Originally I posted on the commons but I wanted to get as many responders as poss.

This morning both the postings on the Poser and Studio pages were deleted.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.........

...and the post in the Commons is still there.  http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=179011   They've ALWAYS deleted duplicate posts if you post the same thing to multiple forums.

Quote - Now onto today's frustration.  Daz has created a new Poser forum.  Again, a positive for Daz in the eyes of Poser users.  This morning though, I posted in a thread in the Nuts and Bolts section helping a new Poser user.  I come back from work to check the thread and can't find it.  Eventually I do a search for my own recent posts and find the thread has been moved into the Poser forum because apparently, it's a "Pure Poser" question.

So are we now to believe that any discussion of Poser at all has to be conducted in our own little corner of the Daz forums?

Maybe, you're reading too much into it.  Maybe they just want people to realize that there is such a forum and move some traffic into it so people will start to use it.

Posting the same article in multiple forums is pretty much bad manners ANYWHERE, it's called spam.  Shouldn't be surprised if your duplicate posts get deleted - in fact, do everybody a favor over there and just don't do that crap, it's annoying.

I'm a bit disconcerted that problems we're talking about seem to be getting vaguely blamed on "Poser needs a service release for this to work" without further explanation.  What issues, exactly, require a SR to fix?

Quote -  

Maybe, you're reading too much into it.  Maybe they just want people to realize that there is such a forum and move some traffic into it so people will start to use it.

I would have said that you may be correct, but a mod over there was kind enough to nswer my question and it seems that Poser technical questions now have to go in the Poser forum instead of Nuts & bolts.  Not a major thing, but DS queries seem to be ok in the Nuts & Bolts section (where there is after all likely to be more help available from techie-minded people with experience in many programs).  So Poser users get pushed out yet again...and Daz are wondering why some of us are unhappy with them.

I am  cynical pessimistic critic. I don't tap dance, I don't have the vocabulary to mince words, I call it like I see it. If I'm wrong tell me, show me I'm wrong, I'll certainly admit to it; I am often enough :lol: But I cut DAZ no slack. If an issue remains unacknowledged, I will harp on it.

The squeaky wheel gets greased? No the squeaky wheek gets tha axle fixed that is causing it to squeak, grease just hids the issue. 

Now I will admit to being one of the biggest mud slingers on; well not at the moment, the DAZ forum. But I don't sling any mud DAZ doesn't give me. And yes I paint DAZ with a big black brush, but it only takes one coat. ;)

I did the DS4 beta, I liked it and the auto fit. Genesis was fun to work with because it gave me viable teens; something I found lacking in the mil 4 figures. Then DS4 was released and the hoopla started.

I like the new interface, I forget what I have it set to but it is reasonably clean and easy to navigate. Much easier for me the DS3's is. Yes, is, I don't use DS4. It would simply cost me too much to upgrade DS4 to replace DS3 in my work flow. And collada to carrara is borked anyway; could be carrara but I don't have anything else that opens collada to find out. 

Despite that, and as much as I'd like to recomend DS4 and genesis I can't. DS4A, yes, because genesis really needs the autofit, despite it's few bugs.

I don't use studio much, it's simply a cog in my carrara machine. I do read the forums, a  lot and preiodically through out the day. The most often posted subject is, of coarse "where is my content". Well for one, it isn't in your content folder. :D But the complexity to get your content in the righ tplace and usable in studio is it's number one problem; in my opinon. And the answer isn't to make the prosess more complex and confusing.

Come on folks, DAZ didn't push DS4 and genesis out the door early for any other reason then that is the way DAZ does it. I mean really, when hasn't DAZ pushed an app out the door before it was ready.  :lol:

Now for the flip.

Several of the DAZ mods are what I consider online freinds. I like most all the folk I talk with at DAZ. They are all good people. That is why I know DAZ; as a company, can do much better. And I will ride DAZ till it is. ;)

Ideally Nuts n Bolts should be for content questions, and application-specific questions should go in the application forum - though of course until the answer to the question is known it will often be unclear which is which. But we've always been lax about enforcing that (which is why just about every kind of thread ends up in the Commons). Getting the new Poser forum off to a vigorous start was the main idea, so people know it's there. (Sorry, Jen, I realise this is a bit far OT.)

Dan wrote:

Quote - Our plan is to trap unsuspecting Poser users and poke at them with a stick but please don't tell anyone ;)

Well, I'm glad we cleared the air on that.   :D :lol:

Please don't blame SM when a product you sold for Poser & DazStudio doesn't work in Poser. When people complain about the same thing from Poser 6 on up,  it shows it was never tested in Poser at all.

Don't take almost a whole month to fix said product that does not work in Poser. It really left a sourness in my mind as to the status you give Poser users and Poser  related problems.

The thread is still in the commons under Ferris Wheel Problem with a big (FIXED!!!) now but if you look inside you will see how long it took.  It caused a valuable  productive member of the community to leave your forums.

I don't know if I am allowed to put the url here to a Daz thread?

I would honestly have more respect for someone that says we screwed up. Is it really any wonder that some people using Poser are a bit miffed?

I am not boycotting Daz nor do I advacate any such action. There are too many very talented PA's over there, as there  are here at Renderosity,  for me to ever leave. But the fun is starting to go out of this creative hobby,  and that worries me and makes me very sad.

@ Dan Farr - Do we get to poke back?

Quote - ...... From reading all of this thread over the past couple of days, and various threads over at Daz, I would say Randall that the best advice you could pass on to Daz is that they need to set some definite guidelines for their own moderators.  Others have suggested some training in customer relations.  The problems with moderation on the Daz forums is highlighted by the fact that this discussion is taking place here and Renderosity - because many of the people posting their opinions and discussing things with you here are either banned from the Daz forums or don't go there because they no longer feel welcome. Get the customer relations right (and the Daz forums are the "face" of Daz that most people see, and people will be more understanding.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here!

LOL at ManleyStanley - yeah, the squeeky wheel gets grease, and the squeeky mouse sometimes gets the cheese... but Ive got another addage for ya - you can catch more flies with honey, than you can vinegar.

Seriously tho... don't think stating your grievances is the issue (I dont mean you in the literal sense - but anyone, just to clarify) I think the pungency in which they are voiced is often an issue here. I would definitely not fault anyone for their opinions, you are entitled to them. But if you want others to listen to them, the best way to state them is calmly and rationally. It speaks in volumes.

Quote - Posting the same article in multiple forums is pretty much bad manners ANYWHERE, it's called spam.  Shouldn't be surprised if your duplicate posts get deleted - in fact, do everybody a favor over there and just don't do that crap, it's annoying.

Especially if you cross-post it to alt.test. 

(heh.)

I'm a bit disconcerted that problems we're talking about seem to be getting vaguely blamed on "Poser needs a service release for this to work" without further explanation.  What issues, exactly, require a SR to fix?

Not sure exactly, but I can vouch for the fact that SR3 (Poser 8) did change quite a bit in there. I wouldn't be suprised if P9 has something similar going on.

I don't spend a lot on line, don't make many purchases, and while I mean no insult to the creators, there has been very little released that I have any interest in.  Clothing, I need male clothing, clothing for the milkids, not so much for kids4 or no need for more for V4 or V3.  More is always welcome, but when out of say the last ten releases, none of them have had any interest for me, I'm wasting time looking at what's offered.  I find the clothing from PoserWorld to be more in line with what I'm looking for, and also realize this does not apply to anyone else, although there may be others with similar interests.

Not that it's DAZ or Rendo or anyone else, it's a trend going in the wrong direction as far as holding my interest goes.  I really haven't paid much attention to know if there's the start of an exodus from the DAZ forums, so I can't comment on that.  I have noticed a far heavier hand from the moderators, for whatever reason, I don't know, none of my business. 

That they've started a "Poser only" forum, I'm neutral, it's there, but if everything poser is going to be shuttled there, it's just a form of segregation.  I'll watch it, but that doesn't mean my posting won't continue to decrease as they have in the last weeks..

http://www.damageinc3d.net/underworld/

A link to my own forum. Not sure if I have the software forums open to guest viewing, but they are set up the same exact way - I have a section for software, and then specific software packages divvied up, each one into its own category.

I don't think its intended to be "segregation" more as that is typically the way all forums are set up - with separated categories as to better suit people and their needs. If everything piles into the commons, for example, and ppl searching for Poser specific help never look in the commons, isn't that counter-productive?

Quote - Posting the same article in multiple forums is pretty much bad manners ANYWHERE, it's called spam.  Shouldn't be surprised if your duplicate posts get deleted - in fact, do everybody a favor over there and just don't do that crap, it's annoying.

I'm a bit disconcerted that problems we're talking about seem to be getting vaguely blamed on "Poser needs a service release for this to work" without further explanation.  What issues, exactly, require a SR to fix?

My mistake -

I guess bad edicate on my part - I wasn't "spamming" intensionally. Heck I hardly post at all to be honest so I guess I'm lacking a bit of knowledge about what to/not to do - I will remember in the future. I just wanted to be fair to both camps and get as many respondants as possible.

I'm a terrible speller, so please know I'm not throwing stones. I have to look up words every day even after I've used them before.

Edicate - that was a new one on me - I'd never seen that misspelling before.

I googled it out of curiousity, and it is so widespread you might get fooled into thinking that is how etiquette is actually spelled. Curious I've not run into it before.

[NOTE] I'm so bad that I first wrote "mispelling" instead of "misspelling". See?

Amazed to see that so many think that the Poser forum at Daz is such a bad thing. :blink:

I would say It's about time we got one.

Sorry - long crappy day with Christmas shoppers

Quote - Amazed to see that so many think that the Poser forum at Daz is such a bad thing. :blink:

I would say It's about time we got one.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, unless it gets to the point when someone asks a question in the commons about some other program and poser, and the post is slammed into the poser forum as not belonging on the commons.  In that case, the commons is no longer a commons, althought what it would be, I wouldn't know.

to Rand

When is DAZ going to seriously Address Hexagon?

It is probably your most underated program in the market today. I use Maya 2012, 3DSMax2012, and several others and still i move into Hex for somethings. I know everything for you is DazStudio which for me is useless as I use poser. I'm not going to bash DS there is enough of that, but Hex is a very useful and powerful program with superb ease of use and format. it needs some work after which it could compete with many of the modeling programs out there!

I actually wish there was a Hex tab in Poser ( yes I can Dream...you will probly put it in DS which would still be useless to me just like the current go to DS button...)

I also think taking the help desk out of hex and making it seperate (something I hate about Maya) and in a undependable Wiki was a really bad Idea...

I read all the forums on DAZ. Poser having it's own forum is fine by me, if people with questions spacific to poser can hit it. I've seen posts popup all over so...

I like to help people, I wouldn't know half what I do about this if people haddn't taken the time to explain it in terms I could understand. But it is hard to help some one that doesn't tell you what system they are on or what app they are using. Sorting the forum by app could prove helpful at this, but no reason to expect a question in the poser forum to actually be about poser; or any subforum for that matter. So the mods will be kept busy :lol:

Flip

There are too many subforums on the DAZ forum. It is quite easy to get lost and confused. It would be nice if when you went to the DAZ forum you were greated with

The commons

Studio

Carrara

Bryce

Hexagon

Poser.

Then clicking on one of them took you to that apps subforums.

Why does posting here feel...... wrong?

Quote - When is DAZ going to seriously Address Hexagon?

The update for Hexagon is here.

Quote - to Rand

When is DAZ going to seriously Address Hexagon?

It is probably your most underated program in the market today. I use Maya 2012, 3DSMax2012, and several others and still i move into Hex for somethings. I know everything for you is DazStudio which for me is useless as I use poser. I'm not going to bash DS there is enough of that, but Hex is a very useful and powerful program with superb ease of use and format. it needs some work after which it could compete with many of the modeling programs out there!

I actually wish there was a Hex tab in Poser ( yes I can Dream...you will probly put it in DS which would still be useless to me just like the current go to DS button...)

I also think taking the help desk out of hex and making it seperate (something I hate about Maya) and in a undependable Wiki was a really bad Idea...

Unfortunately they have put Hexagon on ice. They consider it fixed at the moment. Even though it's not. I'm sticking with 2.1 since that one works the best.

Renderosity has a DAZ forum,and I have seen threads moved there from this Poser forum. Let's not get all holier-than-thou about DAZ trying to "segregate" Poser users by establishing a Poser forum. Sometimes I think whatever DAZ does (or Smith Micro or Renderosity) somebody will be irked by it. We just might be the whiniest group on the Internet. (Speaking as one who has whined his fair share.)

Well, this thread has turned into exactly what that DAZ ambassador was trying to avoid, as any thread on this topic inevitably does. I wonder if he'd return if we give him some polite, direct questions not diluted by paragraph after paragraph of angst and outrage. I think he gets it by now that there are people here unhappy with DAZ. Let's make the questions clear and easy to respond to. Just a suggestion and my own opinion.

Quote - > Quote - When is DAZ going to seriously Address Hexagon?

The update for Hexagon is here.

I have the update and beta tested it

I was asking when are they going to get off there friggin DS and V5 Crap and fix it! only much nicer...

I know I will be chastised for this............

@imax24

No uppity attitude coming or meant.  What I meant was more if someone wants to know "How do I export abc from "def" into poser", it will probably be interpreted as a poser question when it's not.  "How do I import "def" from "abc" into poser is a poser question.  The commons would probably be a better choice, with a higher chance of someone seeing it that knows the answer to the first, the poser forum, better for the second.  By segregate, I didn't mean deliberately, but "de facto", the one word Poser being the only guide.

As far as Randall, I think he might have a little thicker skin by now, but possibly something called a "Day Job" might get in the way at times.

Quote - Ideally Nuts n Bolts should be for content questions, and application-specific questions should go in the application forum - though of course until the answer to the question is known it will often be unclear which is which. But we've always been lax about enforcing that (which is why just about every kind of thread ends up in the Commons). Getting the new Poser forum off to a vigorous start was the main idea, so people know it's there. (Sorry, Jen, I realise this is a bit far OT.)

After a night's sleep, some posts from Mods at Daz and your input here Richard, I'll revise what I was saying earlier.  I hope this isn't outside the topic of this thread because it does illustrate a long-running problem with Daz - good intentions but poor communication.

I took offense unnecessarily at the moving of a post to the Poser thread from Nuts & Bolts.  Seeing how other things are being moved there I can now see what the mods are trying to do and I've obviously misunderstood the intent.

However - wouldn't it have been better to have a post in the Commons for a week or so explaining the new policy of moving threads into the correct areas, and suggesting where certain threads should go?  It's a small thing, but it saves misunderstandings and it is seen as a courtesy. 

So pointing back at Randall (and getting back on topic for this thread) - please suggest that the people running the forums just take the time to let us all know when something is changing, or in this case when something that used to be in force is now being re-introduced.  It stops people jumping to conclusions (often the wrong ones, particularly when a lot of us Poser users are feeling pretty touchy about things right now).

Quote - Ideally Nuts n Bolts should be for content questions, and application-specific questions should go in the application forum - though of course until the answer to the question is known it will often be unclear which is which. But we've always been lax about enforcing that (which is why just about every kind of thread ends up in the Commons). Getting the new Poser forum off to a vigorous start was the main idea, so people know it's there. (Sorry, Jen, I realise this is a bit far OT.)

I do not appreciate long-standing and even out-of-date threads being moved to the Poser Forum from their previous home in Nuts n Bolts to make the Poser forum look artificially more active.

Quote - Seriously tho... don't think stating your grievances is the issue (I dont mean you in the literal sense - but anyone, just to clarify) I think the pungency in which they are voiced is often an issue here. I would definitely not fault anyone for their opinions, you are entitled to them. But if you want others to listen to them, the best way to state them is calmly and rationally. It speaks in volumes.

Excepting "Ninja Postman" style weirdness from time to time (and it wasn't a single instance or a single postman-we've actually had a letter of apology and "compensation" for them doing it this year) it is FAR more likely to be attitude and style of behaviour than nature of complaint that gets a post vanished, at DAZ or indeed elsewhere.

Quote - Okay, I know this has been brought up before, but...

Rand, one thing that really bugged me in DS3A was not only the lack of documentation, but also the fact that it was a WIKI.
That's no way to do documentation, sorry.
I want help files. Searchable, well written, help files I can access from within the application. Or at the very least a PDF manual.
Without them your users are simply stuffed if their connection drops, or they are on dialup, or need to work offline for other reasons.
Many here have (3D work) machines that are not connected to the net. Others work for companies who will block access to many sites they don't deem work related. (FWIW -- mine blocks Daz3D, Rendo, RDNA and a few others.)
Online documentation is not a good thing, and a wiki is too easily messed up if you're not careful.

So... no to a documentation wiki.

Its only built with Wiki tools. Its not a free-to-post-and-edit kind of thing. The only people who will be able to post anything in it are our people. There will be an option to print it out as well.

So, what about the fact that for some, online documentation is a hassle or not always available?

Who3d said   "I do not appreciate long-standing and even out-of-date threads being moved to the Poser Forum from their previous home in Nuts n Bolts to make the Poser forum look artificially more active."

Threads are not being moved willy nilly, and certainly not just to flesh out the new forum. Threads are being moved, or sometimes even copied over, because they have relevance to poser users. Also, in the main, threads are only being moved after consulting the OP.

If a thread has relevant information it may be an old thread, but is not neccesarily an out of date thread. There are a lot of poser users who are still using P7 or earlier.

I can't think of any question to ask I don't already know the answer to; or isn't covered by NDA. Or there are actually answers for.

When is DAZ going to stop the rampent censorship on the DAZ forum?

Never.

When is DAZ going to offer us a simple solution to the overly convaluted installers?

Never. I mean as a zip file not yet another DAZ installer.

When is DAZ going to release a manual for Carrara 8

Never.

When is DAZ going to stop with the smoke and mirrors to distract people from the actual issues?

Never. Even though I think the new poser foum on The DAZ forum is a good idea, it is still smoke and mirrors. Look over here at this bright shiny new Poser forum, not at the new DAZ isntallers that never give you poser format or runtime as an install option. {Carrara works with poser format in a runtime, not studio format in a content folder}

Shall I go on?

Quote - ...{Carrara works with poser format in a runtime, not studio format in a content folder}

Shall I go on?

Let them the time to manage Carrara as they want and then the Runtime folder is vanished from there too.
If you don't know, they're planning to add the DS Content Management to Carrara.

That's all said.

Quote - > Quote - Its easy to get stuck in thinking of Genesis as that genderless gray golem (spiffy aliteration eh?) But in reality, that is what was at the core of both the Gen 3 and Gen 4 lines.... we just never let you see it.You never even have to look at the Neuter base if you dont want to. You do not have to design on it and we never expected ANYONE to use it for their rendering and art. It was solely exposed and used as a centerpiece as an invitation to come and change it... If it was sexy and textured all by itself, many would never change it. We WANT you to change Genesis.. that is the "BIG DEAL" with it.

You don't get it either.  The issue is nothing to do with "oh gosh the base morph looks weird", it's strictly the technical difficulty and extra work required to do conformers for such a drastically difference base morph as opposed to the target morph fits.  I don't give a crap what the base morph looks like, it's just mesh.  I do care how much labor it takes to make a conformer.

e: I also care a lot about the quality of results.

If Auto-Fit is greatly improved, then really you guys should be DEMONSTRATING THIS, especially in your promo pics but really everywhere possible.

Auto-Fit has nothing to do with creating clothing for Genesis; it is a tool for converting existing clothing for M4 or V4 to fit Genesis.

How many clothing items have you made for Genesis?  I'm curious as to how much actual experience you have with it. 

Hmm.  Now I may have to do something, like installing DS4 in a computer, I have it downloaded and on a CD, but after the first release which has long expired, I haven't played with it.  But as I have another box that has basically two word processors in it and a 1tb drive, I think I can risk that one.  (There's cheap, and then there's eMachines.) It is, however, a 64 bit with W7, so maybe it might run it. 

For Randall to chew on for a little, if the only documentation for DS4 is on line, that might kinda guarantee failure as I only have one box on line.  The rest of them are pretty well isolated from most sources of malware.  Running from room to room to try to look at any doc that might be available then running back to the computer somehow seems not to make sense.  And I don't think I'm the only one that keeps the good machine away from the net.

Quote - ...{context snipped} threads are only being moved after consulting the OP.

That certainly wasn't the case in this example.

Quote - Auto-Fit has nothing to do with creating clothing for Genesis; it is a tool for converting existing clothing for M4 or V4 to fit Genesis. How many clothing items have you made for Genesis?  I'm curious as to how much actual experience you have with it. 

I've been saying "Auto-Fit" interchangeably with the transfer feature in CCT, which is sloppy of me, sorry.  I've rigged zero items for Genesis, although I am quite familiar with this problem of fitting around the neuter base that I'm discussing, thanks for your curiosity.

@ the who3d    Your quote was snipped too short. Should have read  " Also, in the main, threads are only being moved after consulting the OP. "

Those 3 words make a lot of difference*.

fonpaolo, I'm well aware of what is going on with Carrara. 

To use genesis in carrara you have no choice but to use a studio content folder. You don't have to have CMS; I don't, wont have it on my machine. Like I did with the DS4 betas, I let it run once and uninstalled it.

DAZ might be pushing CMS hard, but other then having an empty smart content tab I haven't seen where not having it has made any difference in useing genesis.

Now if DAZ does something to force people to use CMS DAZ will lose more customers. 

And if DAZ trys to force carrarests in to a studio content folder they might as well shut down carrara, not many will still be using it.

Give me the old tried and true, every thing in it's palce and a place for everything poser runtime. I think the studio cluster F content folder is about a waste of space. It's about as organized as a kids toy box and about as easy to find anything in.

I have a studio content folder for genesis and the optitex dynamic clothing. There really shouldn't be any more there, yet I have dozens of empty folders going now where. I have folders in folders in folders and all of them empty. I have repeated repeats of repeted empty folders.

I work in my runtimes, I need them sorted and organized. I don't want to play whereswaldo everytime I go looking for something. And as long as I can still instlal in poser format to a runtime I wont begoing to a studio content folder for any more then I absolutly have to. And that would be DSF spacific content and the optitex dynamic clothing. {which if you still have studio 3 you can use in carrara}.

Hmm.  DS4 installed, give it a run, okay.  Didn't crash right away.  But, while realizing that machine is only 1.6ghz and only has 4 gb memory, S   L   O   W   !  Steady by jerks.

Comparing with P7 which I also have on the same machine, DS4 seems to have so far as it's main attribute, waiting for it.  P7 also does not operate smoothly as in my good one, but I'd say it's roughly four to six times faster. (P7vs DS4)

However, as the interface has yet again changed from the first release, not so far that I couldn't find things, working with the default content is probably all I'll be doing with it for some time to come, and that may never change.  I may someday figure out how to get it to search for other content, but that's not a priority yet.  This is the free version, so none of the more advanced features now, maybe never, I don't know.  I give it a play for about a week, but some documentation might be helpful.  Hint, Randall!

Didn't find where to turn on IK, maybe it's not included?  Some option to get rid of the kiddy symbols and have pull down menus instead might be nice, not to mention a hell of a lot faster than "click this, no, not that one, click this, Oh.  That's what that does."  Click on them all and eventually you might find the one you're looking for.  Which is why I hate kiddy symbols.  I still remember how to read words.

Anyhow, I give it a weeks play, but so far, I've seen nothing that would cause me to spend money on additional functions and/or other content packages.  Oh, yeah.  The shortcut to the DAZ store, when the computer isn't on line is kinda wasted.  It go bye-bye.  But I'm gonna treat it like someone that has a limited connection and has to figure out everything themselves, without help.  I'll keep you updated.  Hopefully it won't be another monitor that goes black because my fist went through it.  That's happened before a couple of times.

Quote - fonpaolo, I'm well aware of what is going on with Carrara. 

I haven't any doubt on that. lol

As I said there, if they plan to ruin Carrara with something like that, the only way for me is to move forward and find another software.

I have never understood the reasons that pushed DAZ into Studio, they had a great program like Carrara who was already the better solution at that time, more powerful and already available in three configurations from hobbyst to pro.

When DS was first developed Carrara was still an Eovia product. I'm not sure when DAZ bought Carara and Hex, but I'm pretty sure DS was at version 1 (after the original betas) if not at version 2. Not that I would entirely endorse your sentiments - it depends what tools you are looking for, and your preferences in interface set up.

Actualy Studio is DAZ's origenal app. DAZ bought Carrara from Eovia at Carrara 5. At that time studio was at 2...... something.

In fact Studio is DAZ's only origenal app. They bought Bryce before Carrara, and Hex with Carrara.

Thing is, Studio is still DAZ's money maker, and why not, isn't that what it was built for? Isn't that why it is free or why the mil 4 figures were free for so long, why genesis is free with studio 4?

How can DAZ sell you content if you don't have an app to use it in or figures to use it on?

I've maintaned for quite some time that studio is one of the best CG sales gimmiks I have ever seen.  I mean really, what good is studio with out content? Before studio had FST you really couldn't do any more with it then load, stage and render content.

The best way for me to sell you gas is to give you a car ;) If you haven't got a car, you certainly don't need gas.

Quote - Isn't that why it is free or why the mil 4 figures were free for so long, why genesis is free with studio 4?

Genesis free with Studio is about the same as the Gen 4 figures being offered for free.  At the time I got the Gen 4 figures, they weren't free, but even then, if you wanted to do anything with them, you had to buy the morph paks and textures unless you could settle for the base figure.  Studio may have been an attempt, how successful I don't know, to increase the market for their figures, and of course, the associated paks to go with it.  Dork and Posey, Judy and Don, Penny and Will were all free with Poser 5, probably because it offered something to get started with.  They weren't bad, but the DAZ figures were better, even if at higher cost.  My gut feeling, DS is secondary to the figures, the figures are secondary to the clothing etc.  If you want to use one of them, you have to have the other and on down the line.  

A marketing strategy, maybe successful, I have no idea what it did.  But buying hair with no figure to put it on doesn't make sense, nor does buying clothing with no figure, and each of them is a sale.  Poser was then "expensive", I had to think on it a long time before I decided to jump in.  Poser had the benefit of being at least halfway easy to use, compared to anything else available, and was far cheaper.  So, DS, free, a lot of people that couldn't afford or justify the price of Poser became customers for figures, clothing, props, that wouldn't otherwise have been customers.