Well all, sorry to come on so strongly about this....

I don't know if any of you have ever noticed, but it seems as though in the galleyies, when I look around at people's work you see images that I'd hate to say this, but they look as though a 8 year old threw them together.  I don't bother commenting on those, I just skip over them.

The thing that blows me away, is sometimes, those images have about a ton of responses with everyone going ooooh and aaaaaahhhhhhh over them. 

I can sometimes spend HOURS putting images together, getting lighting just so, and I am appreciative for the very few 4 or 5 or sometimes less comments that I get.

My point is this, why do people say great work when we probably know that the images really aren't, and just because they contain some nude figure in there for some reason or another?

Okay, I'm done my rant.  I'm just curious to see your thoughts on this -- thanks

This question has been posted at least a 1000 times over the years.

Simple answer is: If you are nice to me, I'll be nice to you

LOL... here we go again... look mate! I try, I really try... but sometimes I just can't get what I want out of Poser, so I post the image anyway... and nope, I don't get that many comments... I wonder why as well.

WOW !!!  TOP NOTCH!!

exquisite use of the default pose and lighting!!

That lavender underwear Looks sublime on v4 and I love the neutral grey background shader!!!

CLASSIC example of minimalist rendering style!!

Keep 'em coming!

I think part of the idea is to encourage people. It works better than discouraging people. It's inclusive and motivates people to try and learn whether they actually do or not.

Constructive criticism is helpful... divisive comments are not.

I thank the good (insert name of favorite diety here) that all I've gotten is help and kind words. I'm pretty sure I would have stopped trying a LONG time ago if people had honestly told me exactly what they thought of my "art".

Could it be possible that someone does something just for the simple pleasure of it?

Does everything have to have serious meaning?

Does every render have to have realism that takes a week to render, then a month to postwork?

Can't someone just render something, share it with friends and not have to suffer all the pangs of being a boring ass serious suffering artist like us dullards in this forum?

Because T H A T was what the early days of Poser were all about... just rendering something and sharing it with friends

Ah!, you have discovered the "hug"club! Some will deny it exist, but when you look at the comments, it is always the same group of people who comment on each other to get high ranks. These people make the whole rating system complete worthless. Someone once dared to give a bad comment on one of them and he got flamed by the whole group, with arguments that were complete irrelevant. Being nice to each other doesn't make a good artist and everyone who has followed a professional art education knows that.

Bopper.

There are many reasons for the different "types" of images in the gallery.

You have to keep in mind:

• Do you know how long they have been using Poser? Maybe they are new to poser.
• Some people are not all computer techs that can put together an "awesome" image.
• Art is different to everyone. What you think is not art.. is to others.

Yes this question is asked almost monthly. About the comments, I have seen many people (at the time were friends of mine) leave because of the comments. Silly reason to go, to me anyways. You should make art for yourself not for others. That is what I tell myself when I post. If I start getting upset about comments, that is what I say to myself. Do I like? Yes... that is all that matters.

This rant was disovered carved into Rock near the Stonehenge Quarry, where pre-druidic, post-neandrathal man debated the merits of the cave paintings of their peers.  People wanted to know, "Why Did Gragmarg's stick figure cyclops solar-head piece get so much attention versus Yooog's Reindeer herd?

Also, this is the same story as Cain versus Abel.

Now everyone count off 90 days until an exact replica of this thread is posted again.

I've heard of those Bopper -- we have had some in other forums that I attend.  I do like the fun times with everyone though. 

I hear you Kimberly, I post art for myself, and if people comment, its a plus.  But I'm one that even says thank you to everyone, not everyone even does that. 

Oh well, guess I won't know the answer to this one then, but I think Bopper got it -- it's the "Hug Club".

I find Johnny's comments noteworthy - and the comments of all others as well. It has always been true that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Today i looked at the picks posted by Kimberly and found many of them good, others not so good. I agree with the "hug club" theory. Some of the images I see with gushing comments are just plain bad. Yet all of the comments are way too generous and touchy-feely. To me it is almost like a cut/paste situation - same stuff from the same few. To me, this is a disservice to the artist. I post a few images now and then, but haven't the talents of others here. I can't learn if no one points out to me that maybe the light is wrong, or the background sucks, or whatever. Constructive criticism is a must for an artist to learn and grow. If our egos are such that we can't take a bit of criticism given in a non-judgmental and considerate way, then this is not where we belong. Why else post? 

C~

Well said Charlie! That's true.  Some of them are as you said it, just plain ***bad. ***

But also, like you say it, how do we learn if we don't get criticized for our work as well?  I always welcome constructive comments from anyone, I'm not afraid to take it if something is said harshly about my work, as long as it's said in the right way.

Well on that note, signing off everyone.  Have a great night

"....but they look as though a 8 year old threw them together."

An 8 year old can explain their art and what it is. I doubt that would apply to most artists here. So lay off the 8 year olds, OK.

Rags

Some people are begginers -nothing wrong with that- maybe they don't want to learn and improve-some do. Either way it's fun-and that's what its about for most. But for those who want to improve-we need feedback. A different Gallery? There is a WIP and a CRITIQUE gallery that get little use. Me? I'd like to imrove!

I can't copy and paste due to some weird firefox/mozilla rule- so I'll just say, look down a few posts for a thread about Galleries and constructive criticism. I once spent hours putting together-what I thought was a lovely render of Captain Jack on his ship-with extemely careful attention to lighting, mood, texture, etc.  Someone else posted a picture that was clearly default lighting-free of shadows-with Capn Jack floating a few feet in the air-guess which image got deluged with FIVE STARS!

Hence my posting and request for constructive criticism-which I got!

Quote - Well all, sorry to come on so strongly about this....

I don't know if any of you have ever noticed, but it seems as though in the galleyies, when I look around at people's work you see images that I'd hate to say this, but they look as though a 8 year old threw them together.  I don't bother commenting on those, I just skip over them.

The thing that blows me away, is sometimes, those images have about a ton of responses with everyone going ooooh and aaaaaahhhhhhh over them. 

I can sometimes spend HOURS putting images together, getting lighting just so, and I am appreciative for the very few 4 or 5 or sometimes less comments that I get.

My point is this, why do people say great work when we probably know that the images really aren't, and just because they contain some nude figure in there for some reason or another?

Okay, I'm done my rant.  I'm just curious to see your thoughts on this -- thanks

 

Regardless.

If you don't like what's on the TV then change the channel..... who cares?

If there is a "hig club"... who cares?

If people don't appreciate your wonderfulness... who cares?

If you aren't interested in the content.... who cares?

Constructive criticism can be very helpful. But read back over this thread..... it's about a LOT of things... but constructive criticism certainly isn't one of them.

I'd rather read  "Great image" than the "constructive criticism" displayed here.

Done. 

Charlie and Rags

That's the point of my thread!

quote]

I find Johnny's comments noteworthy - and the comments of all others as well. It has always been true that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Today i looked at the picks posted by Kimberly and found many of them good, others not so good. I agree with the "hug club" theory. Some of the images I see with gushing comments are just plain bad. Yet all of the comments are way too generous and touchy-feely. To me it is almost like a cut/paste situation - same stuff from the same few. To me, this is a disservice to the artist. I post a few images now and then, but haven't the talents of others here. I can't learn if no one points out to me that maybe the light is wrong, or the background sucks, or whatever. Constructive criticism is a must for an artist to learn and grow. If our egos are such that we can't take a bit of criticism given in a non-judgmental and considerate way, then this is not where we belong. Why else post? 

C~

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showforum.php?forum_id=12474

But, folks don't really want critiques. They want to bitch about what Bobby and Susie are doing on the playground.

The galleries are fine

 Coleman

You are right-and wrong. Some do-outside the "hugs" club. Maybe some IN the Hugs club would also like a "Learning Gallery." You clearly don't find anything wrong-but many do. That does not make you wrong- you just have a different opinion.

How about a " Learning Gallery" for those who want to improve? Perhaps the Title scared people off?

I guess I have been the exception to the rule. Almost everything I have posted in the gallery was met with some sort of critique. Mostly from the same people, but always honest critiques of the art I presented. I don't have an ego. I am not hurt if someone gives me an honest answer to my questions. But I think there too, I am the exception. Most people want to receive praise if they do something. Hardly anyone wants to be told the truth.

On other forums that I used to frequent (one of my other hobbies was home recording), the standard was "if you want praise for your work, show it to your mom. If you want the truth, post it here."

I don't see that here in most cases, but that's alright. CG is a different breed.

oh good grief ! SSDD.

I could give you hardcore, no holds barred critique - about your entire gallery portfolio. I honestly doubt you'd change your approach.

Why?

What I want out of an image is not the same as what anyone else wants from it. We each have our own expectations from what an image should explain to us.

That is the very same way that the 'hugs' folks would react to my hardcore critique of their uploads.

Are we sure we're not searching for some kind of approval here?

Art is about getting a very very unique message along to someone else. Could be to one single person and no one else gets it.

And what's wrong with 'hugs'?

Hugs aren't allowed in art?

Compliments are good. But you will know if your works are top notch if you are getting render requests.

For example I am a big fan of lundqvist and he is consistent with making new artwork almost everyday and he is superb especially with clothes folds on the body. I commented on some of his works asking for a render of my favorite video game and did that twice and I am until now hoping he would make one.

While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

Quote - What I want out of an image is not the same as what anyone else wants from it. We each have our own expectations from what an image should explain to us.

Bingo!  Exactly why I don't post mine.  They mean something to me, some moment from the past, but I think I'm the only one with that past.  I don't remember being someone else.

Quote - While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

 

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

 

Don't rush things, we'll get there.

If someone posts a Poser4 Posette with default lighting... how does it threaten your art?

if others like that Posette render... who f*cking cares?

What is so terrible about it?

Render. Post your stuff. Move on with your life.

Quote - While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

 

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

 

Nope... because I'd have to find time, skill and talent rendering in another software rendering package... and I'm way too old for that! 

Quote - > Quote - While we're here anyone want to debate if poser renders are even art?

 

Let's talk about how we're all supposed to be making our own models and textures and rigging it ourselves.

 

Don't rush things, we'll get there.

The limitations of Poser and Daz Studio makes anyone using them pretty much hobbyists anyway. The real artisans who do all the modeling themselves are over at CGTalk.

Notwithstanding, there's nothing wrong with being a hobbyist and using pre-packaged models and lighting, as long as we don't take ourselves, or our skills, too seriously. (runs for cover) Otherwise we could make M4 look like this guy.

Jonas

     Nearly all of my gallery images are test renders of freebies I've made.  The Galadriel's mirror render doesn't even have a doll -the ewer is suspended in midair- because I don't have a Galadriel face morph, nor quite the right hair or dress.  I was rushing like mad to get the playset done in time for the FaerieWylde twelve days event, so it is what it is.  Ditto for the Imladris lovers' bridge playset render, except it has dolls.  :P

Ideally, any possible critique of your work should already exist in the back of your mind.

The galleries and the forums are simply like any other "social" interaction. Quite often you get out of it what you put into it. In the "hug club", or whatever you want to call it, people post images, and comment/rate on each others works as a form of social interaction. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to get a lot of comments, you need to participate, and unless you know someone faily well, making true critical comments could very well be met with a less than enthusiastic response.

If you go to a party, or a company picknick, and run into someone you haven't seen for a few years, are you going to say "My gosh, what happened to you, you must have gained 50 pounds, and you look like you need to see a dermatoligist."? Possibly if they were a good friend, and they know your really saying "Hey, you don't look like yourself, whats up?", you could do this. But in most situations we either reserve the right to not mention how they look, or say something like "You're looking good and haven't changed much at all." The same is true here, even very well intentiioned constructive criticism can hurt people, many chose simply not to take the chance.

Plus, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Honestly, one quick look at Picaso's work, and I wonder why he is supposed to be a great artist. Then I think about it (the art work), and realize that no matter how hard I tried, I could never do something comparable. Then I begin to wonder why he would make something so "different". This leads to seeing the turmoil in his art work, and soon I begin to understand his briliance, his inner torment, and that regardless of how great his work is, I really don't like his style.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I really don't feel comfortable giving critical comments on anyones work here, unless they specifically ask for it. Just because an image may not live up to my expectations for what art should be, maybe it is exactly what the artist wanted. I do typically try to post a comment for an image in the gallery of someone who was kind enough to comment on one of my images. For me this can be a bit of work, because I do want to say something relevant and truly positive about the image. But, since I'm not a very prolific image poster at 31 images in almost 9 years, it isn't too hard for me to give comment reciprocity. But, for many, comment reciprocity must be almost a full time job, and if they are willing to, and want to, put so much energy into commenting on images, then why shouldn't they be able to, and in return get "pats on the back" for their images?

I post my images because the only person I can share my renders with in real life is my wife. By posting in my gallery here, I get a bit more unbiased view of my work, some validation that I have done something interesting/actractive, and occasionally some tips or constructive critizism that has helped me to improve. Since I'm not a prolific commentor, I feel like most of the comments I get on my images are probably from people who saw something they liked in the image, and felt it was worth leaving a comment for. I feel this is probably a valid idea, because the images I have posted that I felt were really good, get more views and comments. The images I've posted that I felt were good enough to post, but were missing that litle something extra, didn't get as many views/comments (with the exception of one - for some odd reason). In general, the number of comments/views and image gets helps me to get a general validation how good or bad my renders are.

Bottom line, the galleries, to a large degree, are an interactive social environment. To be popular, you need to work at it like you would in any social environment. If you want to measure how well you are improving your art work, you can get a relative idea about your success by the increase or decrease in the number of views/comments for each image in your gallery, relative to other images in your gallery (keep in mind here that the thumbnail is extremely important to generate interest and demonstrate the quality/style of the full render). If you want constructive criticism, that will be a bit more difficult. Possibly the best way to get CC would be to ask for comments about specific areas you would like to improve in the image.

No matter how much you comment other artists yourselves, a bad picture will get you less comments than a good picture. So never mind what they say, the relative amount is a pretty good indicator of the merits of your work.

About 8 years olds - I used to think so myself but I'm getting wiser. "Todays anomalies are the seed of tomorrows art" -Diktonius.

So what are the future for Poser art? Certainly not 2D stills a Poser render can never stand up against a real life artist or even a 2D digital artist. You can forget competing with the old masters..

But animation? That is something else. The figures in games and most other animation are lowpoly -a far cry away from Poser quality. The Poser figures are vastly superior. You will be surprised over what dynamic clothing has developed in a few years from now.

And, if you laugh at the skill in the Poser world, remember the content providers..

"Being nice to each other doesn't make a good artist and everyone who has followed a professional art education knows that."

Which accounts for how many people here - probably way less than half. Even adding in the serious amateurs probably nets less than half. What you're left with are people relaxing, enjoying a hobby and yes socializing. In that context, most of the comments are going to be short and generally complimentary and more likely given to friends than strangers, the same as you get when people comment on your bean dip or your new outfit or what you did with the living room. The problem is not that the gallery is somehow broken or riddled with cliques. The problem is in thinking of it as the type of serious professional arena where candid detailed criticism is the norm. It's not. If the name 'gallery' is a problem, call it a 'wall' like they do on Facebook. There's nothing wrong with wanting something more substantial, but the numbers are against it happening often in the Rendo gallery. I'll bet that professional artists have their own hangouts where criticism is given. I doubt that they depend on the comments of the average MOMA or LACMA visitor.

Quote - My point is this, why do people say great work when we probably know that the images really aren't, and just because they contain some nude figure in there for some reason or another?

Because saying "The emperor has no clothes." makes everyone else look stupid for being nice.  The worst thing you can do to a member here is make them feel uncomfortable.  So it is avoided.  There are other sites that will do critiques, rather than accumulate just quantities of one's work.

intersting subject, i find it very difficult to post images here that i am not 100% happy with,and ive posted a few that id still like to re do but im glad i have because i have got constructive criticism as well as the "hug brigade" which does help  focus your work.

I think you just have to realise that some users here are sometimes casual users and some just dont have what it takes to be a world class artist,some people havent got the time or money to devote to expensive packages or loads of time getting to grip with a package, and yes,some pics do look like an 8yr olds done them but ive never used zbrush before but im sure my first pic would look the same from it :-)

Guess what im trying to say is that this is really a gallery of people with differing levels of talent,time and resources and your comments need to reflect that, I tend to alter the level of criticism with the ability of the artist,a bit like encouraging children,if you say that their first crayon drawing is bland and 2 dimensional they will just jack it in,where as a 16yr old "a" level art class student you would expect to give a more extended critique.

Then theres the content,ive seen loads of artists who just do THE SAME THING all the time,and part of me want to scream out"try something different!" but at the end of the day who am i to tell them what to do? so i just roll my when i see yet another carbon copy image and let them get on with it.

So my conclusion is that i agree with you,but i think that it could be a whole lot worse :-) id rather have a hug than a kicking anyday lol

but I think Bopper got it -- it's the "Hug Club".

and lets not forget the best way to get lots of nice comments ..join the "Jugs club" :)

But thats not a critique, thats human nature and it's been around since cavemen wall-painted boobies on stick-people. So it's always going to attract interest.

The same is true in real life.

Take the "big" painters

Rubens
Van Gogh
Picasso

All very famous.

Compare the Rubens masterpieces with the "8 year old throw paint around" Picasso masterpieces. 

As someone said, "This question has been posted at least a 1000 times over the years"

But if it is so common and returns again and again then it must be a real problem so why not fix it?  Nothing could be easier it has already been done. Leave everything as it is and add one(1) more gallery, that only accept screened submissions. Every time you upload a picture you should have an option to apply to be included in this special gallery. The request are screened by a team of experts. (Working for free of course).

So in this special gallery only the creme de la creme is accepted and you're supposed to accept constructive criticism. If you don't want that carry on as before. Nothing has changed for you.

Quod erat demonstrandum - the problem can easily be remediated.

LOL at jugs club, does that mean you can only be in if you have jugs lol or do man boobs count lmao

i get about 8 comments on a picture. i dont expect any.

i took away the comment box a while ago but put it back

when several people asked me to. i would appreciate

comments that could improve an image but dont get

many if any.

At some point, many of us have come to realize that the rating and comment system here isn't perfect.  Like Ragtop Johnny, I spent a lot of time posing my figures (sometimes as many as seven in a single render) and lighting them, only to get a handful of views and comments at best.  It's not much affirmation for images that often take several days to arrive in their final form.

But that's ok.  If only a few people enjoy what I create, at least those folk do, and I'm happy to share my artistic vision with them.  I don't want critiques.  I'm hard enough on myself . . .

When I was posting I did adopt the following strategy, return the compliment for anyone that comment on my picture + a few personal favorites. But after a while I get tired of it. One can only stand a certain amount of hypocrisy. So I quit. Also it was irritating with the people who obviously was only commenting to get a comment back. Often what they had to say was completely unrelated. So as I said I got fed up with it.

Quote - As someone said, "This question has been posted at least a 1000 times over the years"

But if it is so common and returns again and again then it must be a real problem so why not fix it?  Nothing could be easier it has already been done. Leave everything as it is and add one(1) more gallery, that only accept screened submissions. Every time you upload a picture you should have an option to apply to be included in this special gallery. The request are screened by a team of experts. (Working for free of course).

So in this special gallery only the creme de la creme is accepted and you're supposed to accept constructive criticism. If you don't want that carry on as before. Nothing has changed for you.

Quod erat demonstrandum - the problem can easily be remediated.

I like that idea! That is something that should be considered.  Well thought out.  (On the creme de la creme thing)  Works for me.

IIRC, there's a setting on the upload where you can specify if you want critical comments or not.  Apparently it isn't being taken note of.

If the box says "The artist of this image has indicated the following preference for comments:
Both critical and non-critical comments are welcomed."

(off one of mine because I don't mind getting crits)

If you don't want crits then set it to "non critical" or whatever the option is and bingo - problem solved. 

amen OP, amen

"Works for me"

Yes it is the only possible solution. Even if your work doesn't get accepted you can try again and again -you have something to strive for. Also a system with a special gallery will expose those cut and paste comment people: If you have a large amount of comments but never get picked everyone knows why. The team of experts need to have some common sense though. Not only to chose the very best but occasionally lift out some beginner who  work very hard and is ambitious. But in that case they can state their reasons. It is not hard!

You're right --- wew should suggest this to the Mods here in the forums, maybe Renderosity would be willing to bring this idea on-line, even if for a trial basis.  I like it, I see nothing wrong with something like that.

Like I said myself, I can spend hours piecing together a scene, only to throw it all away because it doesn't look right.  I like my work to be perfect.

I think a suggestion will be emailed at some point today.  Right now having a hard time with magnets -- my first attempt at using them, LOL

Meh, I tend to agree with almost everyone here, in one way or another.  There is always going to be a valid point or reason why or why not the gallery is the way it is.  For me, I see both sides, as stated.  Human nature is finicky.  One one hand we have the door holders that do it because it's in there nature, expect nothing in return, and will do it again.  Then we have the ones who hold the door expecting a thank you and might NOT hold a door the next time they have that chance after being 'put off' from the last time.  It's just the way we are.

The 'hug club' as it seems to be refered to, are as stated previously, more of a 'social' type group.  Naturally they will get more of the responses and hit the front page.  That's just how it goes.  The problem, is when an individual will actually confront you (you're not in the hug club) and blame you or ask if YOU were the one that gave them a 'low' rating etc. as it might hurt their chances of getting on the front page (even if it wasn't actually you).  Then start PM'ing people such and such 'did this', or is a warez freek, etc.  THAT, to ME, is when it has gone way beyond acceptable, and hit's back to people purposely intigrating themselves IN a 'hug club' just to stroke their own ego for whatever reason and not really being a friendly hobbiest/social artist.

I myself don't expect a lot of vocal followers, but the ones I do get I cherish.  I do mainly Pin-up styles or sometimes just plain odd stuff, so I expect my art is just more of the 'same stuff' already in abundance out there.  So when a few people decide to leave a comment, I take it as I might have done something to make it stand out.

I don't know.  I'm not very vocal myself, and find it hard to articulate on someones image what I feel in my feeble brain.  So a lot of times I just don't say anything.  Good or bad.  Especially don't leave many critiques, as I am hardly qualified to do so.

-Jeremy

Quote -   I'm not very vocal myself, and find it hard to articulate on someones image what I feel in my feeble brain.  So a lot of times I just don't say anything.  Good or bad.  Especially don't leave many critiques, as I am hardly qualified to do so.

Even though you feel that way, your remarks on MY images have certainly encouraged me.  This is a complex issue, for certain!

I write tutorials so as not to appear to be criticizing an individual.

I still get complaints. Some people can't even take implied criticism that their approach is less than it should be to various things.

Quote - I write tutorials so as not to appear to be criticizing an individual.

I still get complaints. Some people can't even take implied criticism that their approach is less than it should be to various things.

Some of us are more teachable than others.  I, for one, have deeply appreciated your help in moving my renders toward realism with respect to light and skin tone.

Now, if I could just FIX that pesky hair!!!