Social clubs?

The comparison with real life social clubs breaks down immediately. There are no social clubs or they play very little role. Its just people who have made mass comments into a kind of system. They hardly know each other.

Quote - I write tutorials so as not to appear to be criticizing an individual.

I still get complaints. Some people can't even take implied criticism that their approach is less than it should be to various things.

BB,

I'm sorry, but anyone who criticizes you (which your responses are 99% shader/lighting/technical related) have no idea what you have proven, time and time again, on your ability for understanding and implimenting real things and solutions for Poser artists.  You have single handedly been someone that is relied upon for understanding the inner workings of Poser and it's material room and lighting.

I for one, would be honored to have my work critiqued in a technical aspect that you can do.  Some of us, like myself, are just winging it and trying to learn on the fly.

I suppose much of what you get from the gallery depends on you hopes and expectations.  I looked at the gallery for a number of years before I posted my first render which was sometime last year.  I used the gallery as a means to see what others were doing, what I liked and and how I could use it in my own renders.  When I did post I was lucky enough to get some comments, some of which were critical but also constructive.  I thanked those individuals as I did appreciate them taking the time.

Some others even added one or two of my renders to their favorites, this could have been in the hope I would do likewise but it might also have been because they liked my render or saw something in it that inspired them. I will never know the real reason but I will happily kid myself that they saw value in my work and it is a nice feeling.

Quote - I'm sorry, but anyone who criticizes you (which your responses are 99% shader/lighting/technical related) have no idea what you have proven, time and time again, on your ability for understanding and implimenting real things and solutions for Poser artists.  You have single handedly been someone that is relied upon for understanding the inner workings of Poser and it's material room and lighting.

I for one, would be honored to have my work critiqued in a technical aspect that you can do.  Some of us, like myself, are just winging it and trying to learn on the fly.

Hehe. Good. Well not everyone (or web site) has that attitude. After Daz opened a Poser forum on their site, I started giving advice. Yes some of it was contradicting things others had read or done. Nothing was nasty, and all of it was totally accurate technical material. None of it was in gallery comments - just forum threads.

I got a note from a mod asking me to be more positive. In other words, don't tell people how to improve unless you associate the comment with praise - or something - I never did figure out what they wanted from me.

I don't have time to be somebody's personal coach and life guide. I just tell you what you did wrong and how to do it the right way.

For this reason, I reverse banned Daz forums - they have lost the benefit of my commentary until February. I will, at that time, consider lifting my ban if I see something other than mindless self congratulation in their forum.

BB,

Well, in all honest, you have to consider the site.  Lol.  Sorry, but they are entirely 'self' promotional, and your advise can't directly be applied to DS.  Also, anyone like myself who used to upload there, can attest to their gradual decline in not only gallery, but also forum use unless it's DS specific.  Sad, really, as it was a great resource for many years.   Maybe it has picked back up in the last few years after I left, I dunno.

As for YOUR info that most of us appreciate, we know to check your hotspots.  Here and RDNA.

BTW, your 'cloud', or material pack needs to develop soon.  We are waiting patiently, and eager!  Hehe.  ;)  All I can say is, YUM!  Can't wait.

I think you all have missed the point; it's not technical quality that matter to most viewers--it's whether the like the subject matter and that it ressonates with them somehow.  People do this for a hobby and want to share their work with people, many are just happy to share their pictures and don't care if people them.  Look at the stuff people post on Facebook, the images are not great works of art--some are really terrible--but people like them for whatever reason.  Sometimes the more lurid, the more tintilating the more people will like something. . .

My mother used to say, if you don't have something good to say, don't say anything at all.  If I spend a lot of time working on a picture and someone doesn't like it--I didn't make it for them--I made it for me.  They are not my employer, they are not paying me for an assignment, it is not necessary that everyone likes what I do.  It is hurtful if people disparage your work.  I don't post images for "constructive criticism"--I post them because I want to share and if it happens that some people like what I have done I feel good.

It's sad but true, my earlier images when posted on some sites were very popular and were very simple and not very technically acomplished--those are the images people like best.  I don't understand it--I'd like them to like my current artwork that much, but they don't.  So I do it to please me and don't worry about it.  At times I have lost contests to people who have little technical skills, but have the most lurid, most eye catching content--you figure it out, I can't.

I'd rather have them congratulating each other on their renders than attacking each other.  who cares if ~90% of renders contain technical errors?  if we start demanding too high a standard like CGforum, then sales of poser items would plummet IMVHO, as few would have the courage to post renders, and few would buy or create the items they put in their renders.

I personally have been flamed on an outside gallery and I didn't appreciate it.  All the other viewers gave me good ratings, but this one troll was giving me 1 star or something rediculous.  If I were in graphic design school or working for an agency or something then I would expect "constructive criticism"--but not here.  If people like my pictures they are welcomed to say so, but I don't know what possible good flaming me or anyone else does.  Encouragement makes people keep trying, discouragement makes them give up.  No one ever gets better at anything by giving up.  Do I personally want to look at renders of Victoria with boobs the size of watermelons?  No, but if other people like that sort of thing  I say enjoy, it's just not my cup of tea.

I don't care, and never have cared, if I get positive, negative, constructive, destructive or no comments on my work.

If someone wants to tear into my images, that's cool.  If they want to say nice things, also cool.  Constructive criticism is always welcome but then - maybe I'm weird - a complete and utter hatched job would at least give me a laugh.  Even if nobody posts a damn thing in my comments section, at least I put an image up there and I liked it enough to post it. 

I care even less about comments made by other people to other people's work.

Honestly, is it really worth giving a flying fuck about?  I'm 52 years old and I have more things in my life to get worked up about than a fucking picture.

I understand your point of view SamTherapy, my point is simply that what is good art is very subjective--live and let live.  I went to the National Gallery once, and in a gallery I saw a urinal hanging askew on the wall--that was it--a urinal hung crooked.  I personally don't consider that art, but someone did otherwise it wouldn't have been in a gallery.

Tool_PePe to be honest, I don't think any of the forums are as active as they once were, not only here but on other sites as well.  It is still a resource though, if I can't figure something out most of the time I'll get a reply to a question.   Perhaps in this day and age of social networking people just aren't much into forum correspondence anymore.

Quote -  

Honestly, is it really worth giving a flying fuck about?  I'm 52 years old and I have more things in my life to get worked up about than a fucking picture.

A WORLD of THIS.  (I'm 39)

What Sam says.

If you spend a week or more creating a picture and someone comes along and rips it to shreds it can be most annoying.  Surely the artwork people do means something to them--if it mean nothing to anyone why would anyone bother?  It's good that some of you have a very thick skin and nothing phases you--not everyone has that constitution.  Now if someone posts a picture and asks for people to tell them how to make it better its a different story.  Perhaps they could get some tips on lighting or compostion and it would benefit their artwork.  That is entirely different than just dropping in on someone's gallery and saying "Your picture sucks!"  The only motivation someone could have for doing something like that would be to hurt someone's feelings or inspire so sort of response.  So I think it does matter if you treat someone with respect and are sensitive to their feelings.  It's like the people who perpetually come on the forums and say that Poser pictures are not real arfwork, that either a person has model everything in a scene from scratch,use a program that costs thousands of dollars, or its only art if conventional media is used.  These people just come on the forums to pick a fight, they thrive on stirring up controversy and getting people angry.  It really has nothing to do with art or the questions posed.

Come on. Look back at your early renders, if you kept them (I did) and you may just cringe a little (I did).

A lot of the gallery posts that some consider "bad" represent some newbie just being so excited and happy to compose, light and render a scene. Oh man, this is so COOL. I figured it out! Gotta show everyone what I did!

I for one don't want to tell that newbie that the render that made them so happy actually sucks to my jaded eye. I want our hobby to keep attracting new participants and growing. How about, if you just can't say a word in praise with  a straight face, say something encouraging like:

"Isn't this fun? The most rewarding thing is how you get better and better, the more you do it. And as you learn the tricks and techniques, look for ways to make your renders distinctive to you. Good luck!"

I agree with you imax24, that's exactly my point.  When I first started out, I remember I did a very hideous Christmas picture with Posette sitting on Santa's lap and flirting with him while  her annoyed daughter looked on (one of the tacky native Poser kids).  I was so excited about this I sent it in to Daz's monthly galleries.  Now I look at the picture and I gasp and wonder how I ever thought it was good!  If they'd sent me an email saying my picture was horrible and that I need not try for the galleries again I might have given up.  Since then I'd gotten a picture accepted by them, won contests, been published in magazines, had an image included in a calendar, and did a comic book with some other people, so I'm glad I didn't give up.  We've all been there and we need to cut other people some slack.

Quote - I'm 52 years old and I have more things in my life to get worked up about than a fucking picture.

You're not supposed to post those here.  ;)

What is mostly posted in the galleries is very much like the photographic equivalent of the snapshot.

Someone mentioned that they're more like Facebook postings than anything else. I agree. If your friend posts a snapshot of your little group at a birthday party, are you going to criticize the photo for failing to make better use of ambient lighting or more appropriate depth of field?

That doesn't mean that professional photographers and aspiring amateurs don't also post masterpieces on Facebook. Or that no one wants useful comments.

My only criticism of the galleries isn't what appears in them. It's not my place to criticize people's choice to post. My problem with the galleries is that the ratings reflect popularity more than anything else.

It's a real problem when three or four people dominate the top 20 because, when that happens, we can never use the ratings system to find any artists we've never seen before. It's been the same few people for months and months without variation. That may be an ego boost for them, but a worthless tool for viewers who want to discover some novelty or variety.

I point out that I'm not saying this out of sour grapes. I've never posted a single image here because I post all my images on my own website. So I'm not competing with anyone or suffer from hurt feelings, etc.

But I am, in a word, bored. So it would be nice if there were some way to look through the galleries for the highest quality postings...

But no one has said anything about changing anything about of the current situation. The proposal was to add something, not to take away anything. Comparison with  CG Siciety doesn't hold water as they have only the special gallery and nothing else, that is elitistic. It is interesting to me that the hobbyists and amateurs in some way should be offended over the existence of a special gallery even if it has nothing to to with them. It confirms the maxim, "All dictatorships is bad but the dictatorship of the masses is the worst". Renderosity should cater to all kinds of people, beginners and professional alike. "Love all Serve all".

Well, be ready for bitter threads populated by people whose images were rejected by the "special gallery." Your expert judges will be called elitist snobs choosing images that match their personal taste (even if far from the truth). Hell hath no fury like an artist scorned. I'd be wary of this idea if I was the decision-maker at Rendo.

As for no one saying anything about changing the current situation, I thought the thread was started (and many comments posted) in hopes of changing a system that rewards people for putting up renders that some or even many feel don't deserve praise.

I agree that automatic praise doesn't do the poster any favors in terms of his or her learning curve, and renders the rankings meaningless. So get rid of the rankings. They just encourage high-volume posting of renders and high-volume exchanges of automatic praise. 

" get rid of the rankings"

You can be sure of one thing. There will be no change or additions whatsoever. No doubt the Renderosity market place is an important money generator for Bondsware and they afraid of all and anything that can rock the boat.

That's likely true. Why send away 3D hobbyists disillusioned and unhappy? Especially since these are the very 3D hobbyists spending the most money on products. They see the luscious promotional images on product pages and think, "If only I had more stuff in my runtime, I could do renders like that!" It's a natural thought, and one that vendors encourage, I would think.

Of course the render is only half the battle (OK maybe more than half) for such images. Then comes postwork! 

imax24, "Then comes post work!"

Exactly so. If you were an real artist you use the render only to get a head start. But just a little handwork can make a difference.

 “Even the hint of a hand-created element can activate a surface, instill passion and energy into a medium, and reassure the recipient that human understanding and insight are the foundation for the message.” Josh Chen

From Fingerprint: The Art of Using Hand-Made Elements in Graphic Design, by Josh Chen

For example, I can only spend so much time getting the lighting "just so" on every element in the scene. At some point I have to say "close enough" and do some area brightness and contrast tweaking in PhotoShop. Whether that makes me less a "pure 3D artist," I don't care. I just care about the end result. If I ever sell anything in the MP, my promo images will never say "No Postwork." :laugh:

You are quite right. Better to try to become a content deliver. At least they are professionals.

I've been critted by the best (CGSociety) so pretty much anything here is going to be a non issue for me.  Anyone wants to crit an image, go for it.  You hereby have my express permission to give me the whole unvarnished truth and I promise not to stalk you so I can sell your organs to the body farms

Thats nice to know Frank. In fact, in all the years I have been at CG Society I never ever have noticed anyone complain or crank about being rejected for the gallery.

Vintorix, in case you want to see some

Google this: cg society gallery rejection

Example quote snippet:

Quote - I honestly thought this was the best work I've ever done so far..but I got my first rejection email from CGSociety

The one radio'd to the other"Hey, your plane looks messed up. Like it's made of plastic. Like a Poser render." The other guy took offense, but before he could reply his plane blew up because the whole illusion just fell apart.

Nobody goes into combat in a plastic plane.

 bagginsbill,

I googled your suggestion and the harvest was rather slim. The first hit was about a rejection for a rule-not becase low standard. In any case it is extremly rare. Perhaps these guys at CG Society are better people that us?

?

"your plane looks messed up. Like it's made of plastic. Like a Poser render"

That was funny. In any case as I have said before, Poser has a great future in animation.

 (Edit: Many guys at CG Society goes to war with only a pen and a digital tablet)

Quote -  In any case it is extremly rare.

Yes it is. They don't complain too much at all, really.

I posted this in another thread, but I'll share it here as well:

Someone who turns out as having the disposition of an anally retentive internet troll in the galleries mentioned having just gotten PP12, so trying to be helpful I mentioned them looking up BB work and Snarly's script so they could make the most of their new software.  The result: 3 angry letters in my inbox.  The person could have just accepted the comments for what they were or ignored them, but the jerk just had to go off because I didn't post a generic "fantastic" comment and five star it.  What a waste of bandwidth the person is. 

If you can't accept comments either don't leave your gallery open for comments or don't post things to the galleries.

Now I need to make an unartistic commentary about anally retentive internet trolls, in general of course, and post it to the galleries.

I like reading coments like these. I've never posted any of

my work because it would'nt get posted anyway cause it's

bloody, nasty full of monsters & chicks and other strange stuff,

but when you get down to it art is art - different in everybody's

eyes. I enjoy looking at all poser art-don't care if it's bad or good

cause someone took their time to do it.

I don't call myself an artist. I do pictures. I posted a couple here when I first started. Pretty much the kind of stuff the complaints were about. Just testing the waters  and learning the software. Most of my work goes on Deviantart, and people there seem to like it.  It fits a specific niche, it wouldn't fit in here,and not a lot of people do what I do. I've gotten better, and and still am working on it. But I have no intention of becoming an artist. I just make pictures. Thin skinned? Had people try to kill me at work. Comments off the inernet? Feel free.

Quote - That's likely true. Why send away 3D hobbyists disillusioned and unhappy? Especially since these are the very 3D hobbyists spending the most money on products. They see the luscious promotional images on product pages and think, "If only I had more stuff in my runtime, I could do renders like that!" It's a natural thought, and one that vendors encourage, I would think.

Of course the render is only half the battle (OK maybe more than half) for such images. Then comes postwork! 

No doubt you're right here.

I use the galleries as resources when I'm product hunting.

If someone's product looks good even in a crappy render, I'm always impressed. The wide variety of abilities in rendering (and postwork) really does put those products through their paces. Promo images are rarely sufficient.

The problem with this thinking, the more technical artist will take a given content and modify it to improve it's original texture through the material room.  Thus you see a mediocre object with an impressive overcoat, you buy it, then find out that the artist had freshly given it a new coat of paint, so to speak. 

But I do agree, promos have become too specialized, WYSIWYG but only when rendered with such and such lights and such and such app.

I'm a little surprised that places like Renderosity and DAZ don't have pre-fab lighting, backgrounds/scenes, and render settings that most promos had to be made in so we'd have some standardization.

Well, the glitzy promos attract the newcomers, no doubt. It did me. But after awhile you learn to look past it.

I see a character, think, "damn, she's gaw-geous!" and then filter out the glamorous hair, sexy outfit, hot pose, flattering lights and professional postwork (none of which come with the purchase) to try to see what's really there. Mostly I look for facial features that make her special. As for the body shape, I usually change it to taste anyway.

But I wonder how many newbies buy a character, apply the morphs and mats and think: "Whoa. Where's the hot, radiant chick I saw in the promos? I still just have a bald girl with dull, flat skin standing like a scarecrow." I can remember that feeling, before I figured out what exactly goes into making her look the way she did in the promos.

 BB! haha! I agree- but it seems that many prefer the plastic airplane look-I'm one of those who does not-hence my fanatical obsession with learning from you-and experimenting on my own. Perhaps we need a gallery focussing on making lighting and materials more realistic? It must be obsession- I have Lightwave-and CAN get more realism out of it than I can Poser- but still I hack away at Poser! Of course I could spend a ton of money-and buy Maxwell or one of the other unbiased-less biased renderers-or spend eons making renders with Lux Render.

I've run into the same-so I never comment on plastic appearance-or make comments like great Poser4 render! I might even say P3- but we did not have transmapping back then- so hair looked like that seen on a Mannequin (Spelling?)

Quote - Two MIG-19s took off from North Viet Nam headed for trouble.

The one radio'd to the other"Hey, your plane looks messed up. Like it's made of plastic. Like a Poser render." The other guy took offense, but before he could reply his plane blew up because the whole illusion just fell apart.

Nobody goes into combat in a plastic plane.

Ragtopjohnny

I understand what you are saying and here are my thoughts on the gallery.  You will very rarely get critical comments there.  I use the gallery as a place to put up images that my friends want to see.  That is the only thing I use it for.  The comments I look for are in the emails they send me, not in the comment section of the gallery.

If I really want help with critical comments I will post a link to the image (or the image itself) here, in the forums.  There are wonderful people here who will help you with very honest, very critical, very helpful comments that you are not likely to get in the gallery area.

It also depends on what you are trying to do with Poser.  This forum is fabulous for learning how to create realistic images using the new tools we have in Poser Pro 2012.  But, some people are not interested in creating realistic images.  Personally (and this is just me) I never use Poser to create realistic images. I have a great camera and Photoshop for that.

I use poser to shortcut my complete lack of artistic talent.  I cannot create anything on a canvas with paints and brushes that I would enjoy seeing (the way my wife can) and that is very frustrating.  Poser is a great way for me to create images that make me happy, even though deep down inside I laugh and consider it cheating.

I also come to this forum to learn how to create realistic images with Poser, because this is a technical skill I want to learn even if I never use it for posted images. I have learned more here about creating realistic images (shaders, nodes, sss, etc) than I have ever learned (or could ever learn) from reading the books. This is a great place to learn.

Quote - I'm a little surprised that places like Renderosity and DAZ don't have pre-fab lighting, backgrounds/scenes, and render settings that most promos had to be made in so we'd have some standardization.

It's a good idea.  

When I make promos I render with white lights on a plain background, unless I'm showing a specific aspect which needs to be seen at lower light levels and in a scene.  Even then, I try to keep it as basic as possible.

With my stuff, what you see is really what you get.  Always.  I may not be the best or most prolific but I am scrupulously honest. 

I have noticed a tendency by most commenters to avoid anything remotely negative. And there's an awful lot of 'gushers' around. But that's people. They might not think all that highly of one of your pictures - but they're not going to upset you and hurt your feelings by posting a lukewarm comment.

Wow even if written in stone it seems this is still a "HOT" topic.    I always try to post the first thing that comes to mind and have gotten queries as to exactly what I meant.   If I have something negative to say about a render then that's what site mail is for.  I for one am not an art critique but can tell the difference between the differant varients of a certain aircraft  which I may comment on via site mail.  

Some of the best artists (and they are artists!) always have something nice to say.  There is nothing wrong with that!   There is a ton of art on this site that makes me look at my stuff and ask how I can improve it.

Negative comments are alright with me if the critic can spell ot out exactly what is needed.  I've seen comments such as "the sails are all wrong and you have the wrong rigging".  no explanation to the person doing the render as to eaxctly what he did wrong.    If you don't like the lighting then at least take the time to explain what you meant.  

meatSimI'm so glad you liked my gallery image.

Thanks for the comments.

Love esther