I recently got myself a copy of Poser Pro 2012 and it is fantastic!  I've always been big on skin rendering, so no suprise what I tried first!

Attached is just nodes on good old Andy.  Im amazed how easy it is to create realistic looking skin.   SSS is awesome!

Are there any good solid SSS technical threads around? I found a few threads but they were light on technicalities

There are several useful threads at RDNA, in the Poser 9/Poser Pro forum.  One of them contains Bagginsbill's now much-used "post 240" skin shader, which is introduced in post #240 of that particular thread.

I wonder why Smith Micro chose RDNA (a smaller site) as their offical platform. It's a pain to dig over there for the essential stuff I missed by frequenting the Poser place with higher traffic.

I think they've had a semi-formal content collaboration with RDNA since several versions ago.  There's some history of the Poser team working with RDNA, at least on some level.  Hard to know what may really have driven their decision, though.  Maybe someone who knows will tell us, if we talk about it.  :lol:

For my part I really like RDNA.. the forums dont have the same traffic as here but in honesty the traffic they do have seems a bit more laid back and less prone to flamewars than what I have seen here (mind you I have only really used these forums since just before p9/pp2012 came out)

thanks for the heads up on RDNA, I always forget about that site!

the Scatter nodes work extremely well with displacement!  here im just using the hand texture as the displacement (with -0.3 offset so it doesnt baloon too much)

any tips from anyone with the custom scatter nodes?

Are there are any new features in PP2012 that are less known?

The ks_microfacet specular node is a new one. Supposed to be more physically correct. Not seen it used much.

I was going to list some links, but there are just so many good threads in this forum. Go there and absorb
http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?273-Poser-9-Pro2012-Demos-and-Tutorials

Some of the SSS threads that are important:

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?63209-SSS-on-non-human-things

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?63200-SSS-on-Human-Figures

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?64789-Which-node-SubsurfaceSkin-or-Scatter-Blinn

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?64446-Elderly-Skin

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?65396-SSS-on-Eyes

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?65709-Layered-SSS-Human-Skin

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?63356-SSS-Tester

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?64164-RENDER-V4-with-SSS-Fresnel-Reflection-amp-Dynamic-Hair

i can't find my bookmark link to the bathtub water.

MLP - did you mean to post in a water thread? Anyway do you mean the bathtub I rendered years ago?

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2953606&ebot_calc_page#message_2953606

Yes, that's the one.  Thanks!  This is still the most realistic water render i've ever seen.  and pipe fixture.

maybe, one of the new nodes for the tub enamel?

oh, there's why i couldn't find the bookmark.  it's labeled Diamonds in my bookmarks.

ah ha, custom_scatter

Mean Free Path - the mean distance that light travels in the surface before it scatters. 

the formula for entropy?

Quote - the scatter options just seem to adjust color a bit ?

These presets are based on (supposedly) actually measured mean free path RGB data and surface color of real materials.

I fully demonstrate every one here:

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?63356-SSS-Tester

This thread was among those listed above - it's important that you read them all if you want to understand scatter.

you gave me homework?  tee hee

lessee, first i have to make 2 tori for Simon and Anastasia

First just make the surface using the bath shader. Worry about waves later. Right now your image looks like a floating layer of some unreal substance.

THanks for the links Baggins, and the reems of info you have posted over at RDNA.

So I ended up going with Sub Surface Scatter Skin node for the above.  I tried out your Scatter + Blinn which comes out almost identical, but with less specular and (for me) blue-ish spot artifacts on the skin.

I am going to try creating a new shader using the custom scatter node, once I have read up on the paper it is based on hopefully I can come up with my own method!

Snarlygribbly has already released a new python script for P9/PP2012 which gives quite a bit of flexibility in custom creating your own shader combinations

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2841322

Here is my latest attempt at skin using the custom_scatter shader. any suggestions?

Quote - First just make the surface using the bath shader. Worry about waves later. Right now your image looks like a floating layer of some unreal substance.

posted replies in the water thread http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2842273

apologies for sidetracking this thread

Uuuhh. First I would say use a human and use some textures. I can tell that what you made   is physically plausible but no more than that. I could imagine that is a real substance. I cannot imagine that is skin.

What are you trying to achieve exactly? If it is that you get superior results over the five skin shaders I already posted, then show us side by side comparisons.

Failing that my only suggestion would be to use mine.

Im just playing around with the new stuff myself. I like to try myself before settling on a preset!

Which of your shaders is that #240, Scatter+Blinn or Old person?

The V4 backlit hand is #240. James is S+B.

the SSS works for dynamic hair, too?

i near fell out of my chair upon seeing carodan's V4 render.  woww

maybe with new eye glasses i could see light that way.

I am using BB's Scatter+Blinn shader (upped the Scatter scale slightly)

Render settings are pretty much max (10 samples) with DOF and Smooth Polys on.
EDIT
There is 1 infinite light to the left, ray-trace shadows at 6 blur.
There is a 15000% Scale inverted sphere encompassing the scene, but it is matt grey.
I've checked and none of my objects have "light emitter" checked (gotta be careful with that LOL)

BTW MistyLaraPrincess, I used the Scatter shader on the hair in this image (trans-mapped) it does work well for softing out the hair strands and bangs

Quote - Anybody know whats going on with the side of the face?

 

I am using BB's Scatter+Blinn shader (upped the Scatter scale slightly)

 

Render settings are pretty much max (10 samples) with DOF and Smooth Polys on.
EDIT
There is 1 infinite light to the left, ray-trace shadows at 6 blur.
There is a 15000% Scale inverted sphere encompassing the scene, but it is matt grey.
I've checked and none of my objects have "light emitter" checked (gotta be careful with that LOL)

BTW MistyLaraPrincess, I used the Scatter shader on the hair in this image (trans-mapped) it does work well for softing out the hair strands and bangs

You mean the white speckles at the jaw-line in the shadow? I've noticed this too with most single light back-lit renders. Shot SM a report about it but not had any update. Only goes away for me when IDL isn't in use. SR1 didn't fix it.

Looks good, TG.

I hope there is a solution to this (that doesnt include turning off IDL), as it is ruining these renders

It just looks to me like bump is turned up too high. Maybe it needs to be lowered?

I think it has something to do with the white pixels that show up on the SSS pre-render in black areas

I have found that it is displacement and bump mapping that cause this bug with SSS

In the above image, the left side uses an image map for displacement and procedural bump.  On the right the image map and procedural are combined and plugged into bump only. There are still a couple of error pixels though :(

Also, I have been playing around with using Edge Blend to control the scale of the scatter node. I found that certain areas were showing red brightness (like when lighting behind the ear) that shouldnt be. I found setting a high scale, and using an edge blend node to lower the scale as the polys turn to face the camera would help, and it did!  You cant really see the difference in the above image unfortunately

Quote - Also, I have been playing around with using Edge Blend to control the scale of the scatter node. I found that certain areas were showing red brightness (like when lighting behind the ear) that shouldnt be. I found setting a high scale, and using an edge blend node to lower the scale as the polys turn to face the camera would help, and it did!  You cant really see the difference in the above image unfortunately

Could you share your material room setup for this? I've been looking at that too, but with no real success. Can you post a screen grab?

Thanks

Thanks for playing around with this! I have not seen the same artifacts with any of BB's shaders-as of yet. I use IDL, gamma correction- and most commonly- BBenvironsphere and one light. How is your irradiance cache set up? IDL samples? Are you using Dimension3D's Render Firefly script?

final renders I use irridence caching and IDL quality of 70, no firefly script though

You are using significant negative bump. Are you aware of this?

The Turbulence at bottom right is offset by -.5, resulting in an average value of 0. This is good.

Then you add .8 of a gray-neutral bump map, and you subtract .5. If that gray-neutral map is .5 you're setting it up as -.1 on average. The Turbulence is already neutral at 0, but then you move it to -.5.

You should subtract .5 from the bump map before adding it with the turbulence, not after. 

I'm not sure this is apropros anything, but it doesn't make sense as assembled.

I also see you're using ks_microfacet. I strongly distrust this node at grazing angles and I don't use it. Your problems seem to have something to do with light arriving at grazing angles, particularly caused by bumps sticking up just above the shadow line.

My shader was called S+B, Scatter + Blinn, for a reason. It was not a casual choice. Scatter + KS_Microfacet is trouble.

Quote - I am using BB's Scatter+Blinn shader (upped the Scatter scale slightly)

Apparently it isn't Scatter+Blinn. Watch what you say. I was misled by this.

Some things I've noticed (and remember I'm a novice).

1.  Why do you have blinn added to the scatter and then add the KS microfacet?  The KS on the microfacet is also pretty low. 

2.  Why is the scatter dial on the scatter node 10?  Even with the edge blinn, it'd still be about 3 in the edges.  Is there any appreciable SSS going on at a value that high?  Cursiory obvservation of holding my hand up to a light suggests that at most angles I can tell, the angle doesn't really matter all that much... it's thickness that matters as far as I can tell.

Quote - Apparently it isn't Scatter+Blinn. Watch what you say. I was misled by this.

yes, on Friday January 13th at 3:00pm I was indeed using your shader from the thread, with the only change being an increase in the scale.
Today at 1:15pm however I was using a modified shader, incorperating both the combined bump/displacement (thanks for pointing out my mistake with the math setup!) and the edge blend.

I dont understand why your being so hostile, did I do something Im not suppose to?

Quote - Some things I've noticed (and remember I'm a novice).

1.  Why do you have blinn added to the scatter and then add the KS microfacet?  The KS on the microfacet is also pretty low. 

2.  Why is the scatter dial on the scatter node 10?  Even with the edge blinn, it'd still be about 3 in the edges.  Is there any appreciable SSS going on at a value that high?  Cursiory obvservation of holding my hand up to a light suggests that at most angles I can tell, the angle doesn't really matter all that much... it's thickness that matters as far as I can tell.

1. the microfacet node was added at 0.02 strength to add a little more "shine". its extremely subtle at 0.02 but I like it.

2. I grabbed my crazy LED torch and played around with lighting my face from behind in a dark room. I noticed that around my eyes, my nose, cheek bones and forhead dont shine through red like my ears do. Im pretty thin, and so is V4 (well usually) and so I found I needed to increase the scale to get what I consider more realistic amounts of SSS. Lower scale settings look right for soft chubby skin (like michael) but is too much IMO for tighter female skin.
   From what I understand (I am in no way an expert) density of the skin, as well as compression change the degree and behaviour of SSS in skin. Its easily noticable when looking at the differences between myself and my flatmate (he is a big fella). His skin lights up much more like BB's shader than my skin does. But my skin is tight, his is not.

I am still tweaking away but basically its 3 layers, skin, epidermis (blue-ish), dermis (red-orange). next I am going to try adding soft reflections for specular!!

Quote - I dont understand why your being so hostile, did I do something Im not suppose to?

If hostility doesn't make sense, then stop assuming there is any.

I have no hostile feeling towards you or pretty much anybody except Kawecki. (I won't post in a thread that he has posted in anymore - a serious rule I've applied for two months. Even when he needs material help and asks for thoughts, I won't give it.)

Don't confuse my brevity with hostility or rudeness. It's a mistake people make in this forum, and it's a bad one. It leads me to give less information, because I have to wordsmith first, and I just don't have time.

I am a consultant. I make thousands of dollars in a few days by writing software for money. If I spend too much time on the forum, I lose money, literally. My wife is demanding every couple hours "How are you doing on your store? Do you have a store yet? Are you talking to those people again? Did you get ... to pay you yet - they're behind 2 month." By those people she means you guys. By "..." I mean an unnamed company who has screwed up their books and I have to chase down to get my money - I'm owed more than a lot of people make in a year.

So things are a little hectic around here. Only reason I have time to write this is she's in the shower.

Back on topic, last thing you said was you were using S+B, then you started to experience problems. I assumed it wasn't the shader, because you did not say a "modified S+B". That's what I mean about what you say. I assumed there was no need to investigate the shader, since I didn't think it was unknown to me what you were using.

Later come to find you're using a node I think is trouble. Maybe it indeed has nothing to do with it. But - humor me and use my exact shader, everything. Don't even add your bump map because I was not using one. What happens then?

BTW: I'm leaving on business tomorrow afternoon, the Patriots play a game I must see them win today, and I have guests coming.

EDIT: It appears I'm having some problem running the script here. I'm getting this error message when I try to run it:

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "L:Poser developmentEZSkinEZSkin.py", line 1773, in
File "L:Poser developmentEZSkinEZSkin.py", line 281, in init
File "L:Poser developmentEZSkinEZSkin.py", line 308, in UpdateLibrary
IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'C:3DPoser Pro 2012RuntimePythonposerScriptsScriptsMenu/ezskin.xml'

I'll search here and see if I can find a solution. (I tried it on James casual.)

Has anyone else seen this before?

Attached Link: EZSkin v1.6.1 (script only)

Sorry.

 Snarly

Is this a tkinter script? If so I can't use it on my Mac.

Quote - I've uploaded an update (v1.6.1) to fix this issue:

Sorry.

Quote -  Snarly

Is this a tkinter script? If so I can't use it on my Mac.

Quote - I've uploaded an update (v1.6.1) to fix this issue:

Sorry.

No, it's wxPython. I don't have a Mac for testing, so I have no idea if it works on a Mac, but I can't see any obvious reason why it wouldn't.

Quote - Back on topic, last thing you said was you were using S+B, then you started to experience problems. I assumed it wasn't the shader, because you did not say a "modified S+B". That's what I mean about what you say. I assumed there was no need to investigate the shader, since I didn't think it was unknown to me what you were using.

Later come to find you're using a node I think is trouble. Maybe it indeed has nothing to do with it. But - humor me and use my exact shader, everything. Don't even add your bump map because I was not using one. What happens then?

BTW: I'm leaving on business tomorrow afternoon, the Patriots play a game I must see them win today, and I have guests coming.

Hi Baggins, when I posted those images of the issues with white dots in the SSS pre-render I was using this exact shader (S+B) from this post by you

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?64789-Which-node-SubsurfaceSkin-or-Scatter-Blinn&p=624756&viewfull=1#post624756

It has a bump map, but so does yours, like I said it was exactly the same as this but with a higher scale on scatter.  After further reading and playing around, I think it was caused by gamma correction being applied to my bump map!

BUT it doesnt really matter now as I've moved on to playing around with this multi-layer idea, I am liking the results I am getting