One of the things that has  put people off third party figures is there were at least two cases where there were copyright issues ie one where anton thought a figure's foot was cribbed from his apollo and a female figure from rdna that got pulled because she had vickie mesh in her.

M3 wasn't good because no matter how much you muscled him his wrists and and ankles always looked puny, and his face always looked like M3.

I like muscular characters the best.  With really good definition including the back.

I would buy a new muscular character if he looked good and was weightmapped.

Love esther

Wm Brad .   

I'm not familiar with those particular instances, but I have seen cases where geometry hacking took place. It's a shame. But it's a risk anyone working in this setting is subject to. 

Is that why Anton stopped supporting Apollo? Did he stop supporting Apollo or is that mis info?

"she had vicky mesh in her" lol. That just sounds funny, like, "Eww! She's got vicky mesh!" 

"Is that gonna drip?"

edit* who is Brad?

No anton stopped supporting apollo because he was annoyed about something else.

The rdna girl who had vicky mesh was called Eva.

Yes I hope that isnt contagious.

Brad is a very nice figure that phantom started working on and posted some progress shots.  he was looking good but I think he may be on hold while they finish tony (antonia's male counterpart) and weightmapping M4 ie M4wm

Love esther

"But then you have other artists who make their living producing several original figures on a regular basis..."

This is very true. 3DUniverse is a good example, though their figures are all toonish.

I'm not sure there's a good answer to the general situation. Genesis has potential but it needs to work equally well in DS and Poser. Beyond that, the market needs to grow. I think that Both Poser and DS are too involved to ever gain mass appeal. I'm not familiar with iClone to know if it is more of a casual solution. Something approaching 3D clipart with the ability to easily clone people from photos, make animated avatars, little cell phone movies, games etc. might appeal to a large number of people. I think that's where DAZ wants to go with their Gizmoz, Decimator etc. If there an app that appealed to more than artists and could use the same content, then there would probably be an explosion of stuff being created to meet the demand. It's happened before - desktop publishing went from professional to semi-pro to everyone creating flyers, cards etc. Maybe it will happen in this field as well but I've given up predicting that it will :-)

What's missing in male figures?

Clothing that doesn't rely on M4 and M3's truly disastrous shoulder joints.

I have not seen a single conforming item for either male that does not have oversized balloon shoulders. It makes business jackets particularly ridiculous looking. I simply cannot stand to use any conforming items on these figures except for sleeveless shirts or armor.

Once the shoulders are fixed via morphs, though, dynamic clothing is fine. And there is one blazer/suit jacket and shirt for M4 for sale here. But more, many more would be welcome.

You can easily fix shoulders by either using ColorCurvatour's MorphLoader script and a modeller of your choice, or Poser's built in MorphBrush.

Picture shows a modified M2 wearing some M3 clothing.

I don't render males a lot, but what I'm usually missing are skin textures for more rugged men.  Also for men who are in their 40's.  It's hard making a render of a man in his very sexy middle years when all of the character textures are for 20-something pretty boys.  The skin is just different.

Hair.  Again, too many pretty hairstyles.  Too much pomp and poof, and not enough rugged or every day.

Clothes.  So much is effeminate or something an average man wouldn't wear.  I want jeans that look comfortable and average, not skin tight and up to his rib cage.  I'd love more clothes that are good for post-apocalyptic wasteland images and biker gear like the guys wear on Sons of Anarchy, but that's just me.

Hair! Yes, that's another one to go with good poses and expressions. All the short male hair I've bought hoping it'll look Ok has been pretty abysmal :(

Quote -  

You can easily fix shoulders by either using ColorCurvatour's MorphLoader script and a modeller of your choice, or Poser's built in MorphBrush.

On the fly morph fixes are fine for still images, but do little for animations. 

Even with weight mapping, conforming clothes rarely look natural. The only way to really get a natural look in loose fitted clothing, at least for animations, is to use dynamic clothing, or a combo of dynamic and conforming, depending on what type of garment it is and what its doing. 

However, conforming clothes artists could put a bit more effort creating morphs for still poses, especially those who include pose sets in their products. 

I'd imagine the average poser user finds dynamic clothing too much of a hassle, which is a big reason why so much is conforming and has that balloon, plastic look to it.

I see a lot of people complain that there aren't enough hair models available for M4, yet just about every style of hair you can think of is available for him. It takes some looking, and browsing other sites, but it's there. It's hard to make hair look masculine on a model that's too "pretty". 

Sigh... another pretty boy render! The hands are so delicate!

Quote - "I think the daz males are pretty boys that should be in some boy band and lack the mophs to make them more rugged"

 

I Wouldnt call this a "pretty boy"

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

Lee Van Cleef?

Quote - And as for them being pretty....

"Lee Van Cleef?"

Yep.

And here are a few polygons more. :-)

BTW, a lot more "unprettyness" for the DAZ males can be found HERE:

http://www.sharecg.com/v/34481/browse/11/Poser/The-Many-Faces-of-Moggadeet

Or Buck Angel. 

(no offense to mr. angel)

What version of poser do you use Joe?

You know it's funny, I've made some great stuff/armor/outfits for guys through the years...and it just doesn't sell.

But make almost anything for a girl...bing, bing, bing...winner!

Yeah. 

I'm sure it has a lot to do with what it is though, and the demand for it. 

The male market is much more of a niche, but at the same time there are plenty of people who do work with males and need content. 

There are a lot of factors to consider and methods to generate more interest. I think the quality demand of male oriented content is also a lot higher than the female market, which would have a lot to do with it too.

 It just seems rather strange to me, as on the other side of CG, in character artist forums like zbc, cgsociety, conceptart, polycount, etc, you usually see a lot more male characters than female, or at least it is much more balanced.   

PP 2012

Having fun with M3 and the Moggadeet heads. :-)

Quote - You know it's funny, I've made some great stuff/armor/outfits for guys through the years...and it just doesn't sell.

But make almost anything for a girl...bing, bing, bing...winner!

Poor Vicki, tons of clothes, shoes and hair to attract just about any male, yet not enough guys to go out with. Her dating life must suck and the reason nobody has ever called her Mrs. M4.  Sort of the reverse of China where the guys out number the girls by a  huge margin.

I do a lot of real life scenes and by Western standards that requires guys to go with the girls in the render. Hence my request elsewhere in this thread for more everyday clothes for M4. And please no more tank top t-shirts. The guys have enough of those already.

I think the biggest share of Male renders is probably Comic Heros or Beefcake. That's my impression anyway.

Quote - Yeah. 

I'm sure it has a lot to do with what it is though, and the demand for it. 

The male market is much more of a niche, but at the same time there are plenty of people who do work with males and need content. 

There are a lot of factors to consider and methods to generate more interest. I think the quality demand of male oriented content is also a lot higher than the female market, which would have a lot to do with it too.

 It just seems rather strange to me, as on the other side of CG, in character artist forums like zbc, cgsociety, conceptart, polycount, etc, you usually see a lot more male characters than female, or at least it is much more balanced.   

Here's my take on it, it's MY opinion only, so please take it that way:

 There is a double standard in the Poser community and a general lack of effort and interest.  Female models are morphed to no end by vendors and community members, often resutling in entire product lines being created around the morphs. Why can't the same be done for the CURRENT batch of males? Why does the community seem to think that male models have to be spot on from the outset or they won't bother using/supporting/buying content for them?

 You all have seen Alyson, correct? The majority of you felt she wasn't particularly attractive despite the plethora of facial morphs she came with.  She was just assumed too ugly to make content/character morphs for. One artist comes along and challenges that idea and suddenly, Alsyon's not so bad anymore. SO WHY CAN'T WE DO THE SAME FOR ANY OF THE MALE CHARACTERS ALREADY ON THE MARKET? Simple. Vendor perception.  Vendors think that type of content won't sell. Users can't buy what vendors don't make and thus we're stuck in a cycle of "I don't want to take a risk". 

 The thing the vendor community doesn't seem to have a handle on is that people buy what you tell them to buy. Get enough folks in your corner saying how dope a male morph for Apollo is or how awesome a texture set for Ryan is, back it up with a render or two and you'll have your sales.  Just look at Anastasia and how word of mouth and a few renders was all it took to make Alyson, a character EVERYONE owns already and who has the most built in morphs of any character, cool to own. Now everybody's Anastasia crazy and that's due in no small part to one person taking a risk on a character nobody thought was popular. 

 So you want to know why there isn't more content out there for men - and judging by some of the content for women, quality isn't always important - it's totally because the vendors tell you it won't sell and they don't bother making the stuff. Self fulfilling prophecy that. There's a film quote that I'm going to paraphrase here:  "If you build it, they will come." If you don't, there's nothing for them to buy/make renders of. Who's to blame in that scenario? The user for not buying something that doesn't exist or the vendor for not making it? Yup.  So wake up folks. You want more males - well you already have a bunch - just learn to work with the ones you have and don't be afraid to take a risk on creating new stuff for them.

"It just seems rather strange to me, as on the other side of CG, in character artist forums like zbc, cgsociety, conceptart, polycount, etc, you usually see a lot more male characters than female, or at least it is much more balanced."

Well, to the extent that they're professionals, I imagine they work on what they're assigned. ArchViz, ads, films probably feature a greater number of males. Contrast that with casual or hobbyist users doing what they like, which for many (of both genders apparently) means predominantly female figures. After all the years that Poser has been around, I think that the gender ratio reflects something more fundamental than just a lack of enterprising vendors.

While there is probably some truth in the Field of Dreams theory, I think you can only drive the market so far. I just seriously doubt that many more people would render many more males if there were better male figures. 

There should be a ready made market amongst the folks who go gay themed art. I'd check out sites like maleposer and renderotica. You might get some ideas on what people would want in a new figure.

There's some truth to that, lmckenzie, I think the user base is diverse but does skew slightly toward those who prefer female figures. That said, I still feel that the best way to deal with the problem of a lack of content (be it male, female, toon, alien, etc.) is to make the content that's lacking or find ways of making existing content more worthwhile.

In reference to the pro versus hobbyist market, there's also this to consider:  

Poser content creators have to make very general characters that can be used in any situation. Characters for film and games are usually very specific characters built for very specific situations. So that is something that many people both don't realize (as consumers) and don't want to deal with (as vendors).  

Joe has talent running out of his ears, very impressive...i would have guessed Eastwood... with the poncho and the ciggarillo...though i can see VanCleif also...the  point is moot , the talent is remarkable, keep pushing your limits and strive to better your personal best... there are those of us who need your inspiration and enthusiasm... dont feel unappreciated and fade back keep pushing ahead...

 whats needed?... maybe not your interest, but...decent textures for M4 that dont have burnt in details that dont line up with the mesh when parts are bent...such as the dark crease detail where the thigh meets the buttox , or the shadow detail above the kneecap, having these details in the bulge maps of the rigging instead would make more sense IMHO

:O)

Thanks JAFO, but the Eastwood and van Cleef characters were made by Arduino. I just tweaked them a little here and there.

BTW, he also made an Eli Wallach character to complete the trio:

http://www.arduino.net/Product/CowboyUgly/index.htm

(Link has nudity !)

Though I do all my body and head morphing myself, I haven't done a celebrity face morph in ages.

Too busy constantly improving the rigging of the characters I made, and there are already so many great celebrity morphs out there. :-)

Thanks Joe ill definately grab the good the bad and the ugly for my collection when i get my duckies lined up, for now i have exceeded my limits...im a big fan of those old spaghetti westerns never tire of watching them,...they dont make em like that anymore,... i still appreciate your tallents and efforts tho...

:O)

Quote -
Here's my take on it, it's MY opinion only, so please take it that way:

 There is a double standard in the Poser community and a general lack of effort and interest.  Female models are morphed to no end by vendors and community members, often resutling in entire product lines being created around the morphs. Why can't the same be done for the CURRENT batch of males? Why does the community seem to think that male models have to be spot on from the outset or they won't bother using/supporting/buying content for them?

 You all have seen Alyson, correct? The majority of you felt she wasn't particularly attractive despite the plethora of facial morphs she came with.  She was just assumed too ugly to make content/character morphs for. One artist comes along and challenges that idea and suddenly, Alsyon's not so bad anymore. SO WHY CAN'T WE DO THE SAME FOR ANY OF THE MALE CHARACTERS ALREADY ON THE MARKET? Simple. Vendor perception.  Vendors think that type of content won't sell. Users can't buy what vendors don't make and thus we're stuck in a cycle of "I don't want to take a risk". 

 The thing the vendor community doesn't seem to have a handle on is that people buy what you tell them to buy. Get enough folks in your corner saying how dope a male morph for Apollo is or how awesome a texture set for Ryan is, back it up with a render or two and you'll have your sales.  Just look at Anastasia and how word of mouth and a few renders was all it took to make Alyson, a character EVERYONE owns already and who has the most built in morphs of any character, cool to own. Now everybody's Anastasia crazy and that's due in no small part to one person taking a risk on a character nobody thought was popular. 

 So you want to know why there isn't more content out there for men - and judging by some of the content for women, quality isn't always important - it's totally because the vendors tell you it won't sell and they don't bother making the stuff. Self fulfilling prophecy that. There's a film quote that I'm going to paraphrase here:  "If you build it, they will come." If you don't, there's nothing for them to buy/make renders of. Who's to blame in that scenario? The user for not buying something that doesn't exist or the vendor for not making it? Yup.  So wake up folks. You want more males - well you already have a bunch - just learn to work with the ones you have and don't be afraid to take a risk on creating new stuff for them.

Pretty spot-on there. I've been thinking pretty much the same thing and I was playing with the idea of doing a custom sculpt for Ryan2, the way Blackhearted did for Alyson2.

However, there are drawbacks to that approach, which for me, makes it rather pointless, at least at this point, because I still wouldn't be able to turn it into the figure I'm going for. 

An entirely new sculpt for an existing figure still leaves you with a figure that has virtually no content to be used with, without modifications to existing content that most users just aren't going to bother with. The users who do modify existing content have said repeatedly that tools like WW don't always do that great a job with the fittings. 

So, a heavily modified existing figure, via the way of morphs, is really the same as having a new figure as content still has to be heavily modified or made again. 

Secondly, and more importantly, existing meshes can't be modified without violating Eulas. Morphs are great, but can only do so much. There comes a point where the mesh has to be recut, the cr2 has to be reworked, these are things that both Daz and S-M does not allow. The only time drastic changes like that are allowed for is when the original creator allows it.  I would love to go through and fix all the errors and bad geometry in the G2 models, or the P6 models, and make them so that they could be modified and turned into better characters. But I can't do that without permission from S-M. I even thought about using RTencoder, but Daz still doesn't allow for that, as I understand it, and RTencoder's website hasn't been updated since 2008. Maybe its been bought by someone else. Maybe its been abandoned by its creator. Regardless, if the existing figures can't be used with it any longer, due to eulas, it's pointless to go that route. 

I have a model that is about 90% complete in terms of sculpting. His feet and hands still need some work. From there I'll be building his topology, which will probably take the better part of a day. Once that is done I can begin rigging him. 

I'm thinking about creating a thread here for those who are interested in following his development. I figure it will help in generating interest in him. Some people don't like showing what they're working on, for various reasons, and prefer instead to just reveal it when its complete and ready to go. There are good and bad reasons for doing that. So I'm not sure at what point I should start showing him, but if no one knows he's there, then no one will be interested. Still, that is why I started this thread, to see what people are looking for in terms of content and functionality, in order to combine some of those ideas with the goals I already have for this figure. I do know that he will function at least a bit differently than what is currently available, and his eula will allow for other artists to create their own ideas for him. At least that is the goal. 

So... where are the sample pics?

Quote - Joe has talent running out of his ears, very impressive...i would have guessed Eastwood... with the poncho and the ciggarillo...though i can see VanCleif also...the  point is moot , the talent is remarkable, keep pushing your limits and strive to better your personal best... there are those of us who need your inspiration and enthusiasm... dont feel unappreciated and fade back keep pushing ahead...

Yes, Joe - I should clarify, the character sculpts you've shown here of your work are very good, so I apologize if it seems I've criticized them. It's not your work I find fault with, it's the models they're based on. 

Well there's something to be said about not revealing too early. Phantom3D showed us all Brad and even released a Beta version but has now shelved Brad to work in Antonia's counterpart Tony instead. This has not really been remarked upon negatively but speaking for myself, I was a bit miffed to hear it. I never brought it up til just now though but I'd guess that other Brad fans were just as tiffed to hear he had been shelved after getting us all worked up about how nice he looked.

Well, here's an idea:

If you're going to do something big to an existing figure or make a new figure, why not try and get vendors on board before release?

Laurie

Laurie:  - yes, I definitely would like to do that. At this point it's too early to really start talking to other vendors about it though, and since I've been away from the site for so long, no one remembers me anyway, or is familiar with any of my work, so I have to establish that too. But working with other interested vendors is definitely at the top of the to-do list. I just have to show them something they'd be interested in working on first :)

I have a character theme for Antonia I'm working on along side my male figure - they are unrelated, but the Antonia project is much more simple (well, if you call a texture set, custom morph, full outfit - including hair - and scene, simple, lol) - but it will help to showcase my style, and give people a better idea of what the guy will look like, at least in theory. There is nothing in my gallery that even remotely resembles what I do these days. I should update it, and delete all that crap to be honest. lol. But I kind of leave it there to remind myself of what never to do again. 

SteveJax - I have never seen Brad, but I've heard about him. Would be interesting to see what he looks like but I haven't run across any sample pics yet. I've seen Tony tho.

BasicWiz - I will. I've been tempted to post some face shots in my gallery, but not sure I want to just yet. I spent about 4 full days on his face sculpt alone, but there are still minor tweaks I want to do, mainly around the eyes and nostrils, and think it will be better to wait until his topology is done first. 

** sounds  good ExistentialDisorder whenever you are ready to reveal ill be watching im sure it will be well worth the wait, those little details make all the difference and are time well spent...**

**
:O)**

Thanks JAFO, I appreciate the interest and encouragement. 

I am big on tiny details and accuracy.

Attached Link: Flanked at Maidenhair Ridge

Having written this, I use the L75 Casual Set with various textures applied more frequently than any other clothing item for M4.  I find the US WWII soldier set works pretty well, too.

But my biggest beef with male clothing is that neckties look two dimensional.  I have yet to see a necktie with a knot that looks like someone actually tied it, and just as vexing is the fact that neckties in Poserdom are not posable!

I would like to see body hair in various shades and textures.  Asian men may be smooth skinned, but I'm certainly not, and my friends of African descent have chest and arm hair that looks very different than mine.  Jepe had a product for putting hair on M4, but it's actually a character conformed to another M4 figure, and that seems like a complete waste of system resources.  I've been hoping someone would figure out another way.

As far as ethnicity is concerned, there are some really good M4 figures of African descent out there.  I use a modified version of LK's Jomo frequently.  He's exceptionally well-made.

Oh, one more thing . . .

The K4 boy is alright, but I could REALLY use a good infant!

I too was disappointed that Brad was shelved.  Boy he looked good!

Love esther

I just found an old thread at daz about Rikishi and have put all of him and his stuff in my cart.  I think a big character looks better with his originial clothing made for him instead of converted clothing.

Love esther

Quote - Oh, one more thing . . .

The K4 boy is alright, but I could REALLY use a good infant!

Daz put less effort and time on the K4 kids than any figure that they have made.

And it shows ,a real bad effort.    Imo.

well maybe weightmapping will resuscitate K4.

Love esther

If someone manages to uncreepify the K4's I might use em ;). As it is tho, they're scary...lol.

Laurie

just a tad scary.

I got into using Poser originally in 1998 because I want to make illustrations for my vampire novel that had primarily male characters. Then I discovered the lack of clothing options which has continued to this day with current male Poser figures. I had to shelve my idea of illustrations. So, what happened? I ended up doing pinup art instead. Now a friend of mine is working on a novel and I was inspired again to try to do some character images and ran into the clothing problem. I had a little rant a few weeks ago because I needed a floor length coat that resembled a photo I had. The coat is described in the text of the novel and was inspired by that photo. Luckily Glitterati3D came to my rescue and modeled a coat that would work for the character and then put it into the free stuff area. But there is still a lot of clothing types that could be made for male characters (i.e. Fallout3 style, Post Apocalyptica type clothes). As my friend's tale stands at the moment there are three male characters and one female. I do use M4 now and when DAZ put out the fourth gen characters they got lazy on facial morphs so it's at least for me difficult to get the looks that I want for these males. Ah well, I keep looking and hoping when it comes to male oriented Poser items.

Quote - Well there's something to be said about not revealing too early. Phantom3D showed us all Brad and even released a Beta version but has now shelved Brad to work in Antonia's counterpart Tony instead. This has not really been remarked upon negatively but speaking for myself, I was a bit miffed to hear it. I never brought it up til just now though but I'd guess that other Brad fans were just as tiffed to hear he had been shelved after getting us all worked up about how nice he looked.

You have to keep in mind tony is a bit of a different project.  The Idea behind the Antonio project is to help develope people weightmapping skills as it goes.  As much as its a new figure it is equally a tutorial project on weightmapping from start to finish.  I'm not sure of the details but I think that antonio was better suited to this purpose for whatever reasons.  Perhaps it provided better learning opportunities or was a more straightforward figure to work with.  Phantom3D is very passionate about getting more people involved and skilled with posers newer features, and making sure poser users do not end up shackled to one company or one figure for their needs.  He has been extremely generous with his time and effort, putting off projects (like brad) that are near and dear to his heart in order to try to fill the needs that the community has been voicing.  

Poser Place is happy to welcome anyone who wants to pitch in and do something positive for poser, and there are lots of really talented folks willing to pitch in and help with projects if you have one in mind.  Heck if you were so inclined you could probably start a 'we want brad' chant... er.. I think... might have to check the rules on chanting... :P

Quote - I got into using Poser originally in 1998 because I want to make illustrations for my vampire novel that had primarily male characters.

That is exactly the reason I started using Poser in 2004/2005-ish. Same subject matter even. lol. 

I never did illustrate that novel. I went to computer animation school instead. The novel is still being written though, and at some point I hope to turn it into an animated series. 

Attached Link: Shadowclash: The Awakening

Quote - > Quote - Well there's something to be said about not revealing too early. Phantom3D showed us all Brad and even released a Beta version but has now shelved Brad to work in Antonia's counterpart Tony instead. This has not really been remarked upon negatively but speaking for myself, I was a bit miffed to hear it. I never brought it up til just now though but I'd guess that other Brad fans were just as tiffed to hear he had been shelved after getting us all worked up about how nice he looked.

You have to keep in mind tony is a bit of a different project.  The Idea behind the Antonio project is to help develope people weightmapping skills as it goes.  As much as its a new figure it is equally a tutorial project on weightmapping from start to finish.  I'm not sure of the details but I think that antonio was better suited to this purpose for whatever reasons.

I understand the reasoning behind the decision. I was just giving it as an example of what can happen when you reveal too early. You get people's enthusiasum up and they get let down. It wasn't a knock on Phantom3D's commitment to the community. This is kinda why I never mentioned how I felt before now. I knew someone would think I was finding fault.

Quote - Hi to be honest  there is no longer major void to be filled in the area a poser/DAz males  with the possible exception of a weight mapped male figure
and apparently one is in the works for poser pro 2012

DAZ M4 has enough versatility and content support  for most peoples needs and of course on the DS only side genesis covers everything else.

Cheers

Voicing my disagreement.  David was the last decent male model to come out from DAZ and he is and has been undersupported.

M4 is fine, but in order to make him versatile requies a serious expenditure.  And even then, meh.

Versatility is key, I think.  Apollo aimed at versatility, overdid it and didn't quite make it at the same time.

I use almost exclusively male figures.  I use David more than anyone else, and a close second would have to be Seth (anyone remember him?).  The Aeon figures, for me, had a great start but never gathered any steam or support.  Genesis makes me think of Aeon, but I don't care for Genesis.

"

Versatility is key, I think.  Apollo aimed at versatility, overdid it and didn't quite make it at the same time."

Apollo always looked a bit puffy to me even when muscled up, andhe had that problem that when you scaled him you had to scale the clothes (might not be so much of a problem with pp2012 but I haven't tried him recently.)

I like M4 too but I don't feel he is everything.  that's why I've just popped rikishi into my cart, and why I would like to see more new male figures.

Love esther

Quote - Versatility is key, I think.  Apollo aimed at versatility, overdid it and didn't quite make it at the same time.

I think Anton got the versatility concept with Apollo bang on in terms of functionality, with both morphs and scaling options. I particularly miss his scaling, and the 2-way morph dials (while not exclusive to Apollo) are not always incorporated into later figures. The specific downside for me was his mesh density and topology, affecting the quality and definition of those morphs and shapes.

I'd love an Apollo and his female counter-part with the same core functionality but higher density and defined mesh, rigged with 2012 weight mapping.