BTW: You can search the gallery using the search function with "no postwork" (note the doublequotes). That mostly finds the images where the phrase "no postwork" (without doublequotes) is in the description (plus some images where it sais "no postwork except ..."). I guess more than that you will not get with a seperate gallery either, because there are probably a lot of users who do not even know what postwork is (i myself heard it only in the context of poser because the rest of the world calls the process of resizing, color-correcting, etc. an image "compositing").

"it would appear that the third group is way down the food chain in your view,"

No that is not my view at all
I use mostly premade content and motions
and IBL setups& lighting rigs for Vray in my professional client work

Assume much??

the statement stands on its own as a speculative, potential answer to your own Question:
""which leads me to wonder why anyone bothers to post in the galleries? except the few who fall into the above categories?","

for a more definitive answer perhaps you could conduct a poll  unless your question was merely rethorical.

Cheers

an interesting debate wolf359, however it was not my assumption that "perhaps some poser user post images to highlight their compositional skills and artistic& lighting choices with their content", that dear Sir was your assumption by the use of the word"perhaps"

• *Used to express uncertainty or possibility: *
• Used when one does not wish to be too definite or assertive in the expression of an opinion

,in my particular case this happens to be true, my question was as you so correctly surmise , rhetorical.

Unlike youself with your film projects, IMDB listings, vendor items etc , I am purely what was once described as a well meaning amateur, who cannot aspire to reach the dizzy heights of film production having neither the skill nor motivation to achieve such goals, all I ask is that those who do not postwork have an equal forum to show their efforts and the extent of the improvements in the software and are not poorly judged because their displayed work was completed within the confines of the program per se.....

"and the extent of the improvements in the software and are not poorly judged because their displayed work was completed within the confines of the program"

Ok perhaps you are aware of some threads or incidents where people's finished work or "improvements in the software" were
"poorly judged" solely on the one fact that they posted untouched  renders directly from their render engines and no other criteria.

I must have missed those threads somehow

so if an "untouched firefly only" gallery wouldhelp to put and end to this apparent conflagration happening somewhere out there in this community,
then indeed it would be a good thing for the sake of fairness,

Cheers

Quote: As for the suggestion to post such a gallery on the SM site, well IMHO that would be nothing more than a FREE advert for the DAZ inc  $$$Store$$ unless you restricted it to the SM's poser native content.

Welcome to the Smith Micro "FireFly" Gallery:...

Quite disrespectful, and I don't see the connection between SM and DAZ. Here it is http://poser.smithmicro.com/gallery.html and is does answer the question what the program is capable of. Edit: Bagginsbill is in slots 5, 7 and 8.

My issue with having another subcategory is that one can post in one gallery only. So posting in realism, portrait and no-postwork would require three posts instead of one. So perhaps we could improve on that first / as well. When I had a good result, I would prefer the first or second over the third to post in. Same with tutorials.

Next to that, I find the no-postwork as well as the "see what the progam is capable of" both rather vague. Firefly calculates results per materials channel and per light, and adds them up. When I get all results out as separate render passes and blend them together myself, it's postwork. And I do see every day in the galleries what the program is capable of. Horrible in a lot of cases, but some are quite good. In other words: we might need better criteria for what we're really looking for.

in all fairness aRtBee  i think that is splitting hairs

"Next to that, I find the no-postwork as well as the "see what the progam is capable of" both rather vague. Firefly calculates results per materials channel and per light, and adds them up. When I get all results out as separate render passes and blend them together myself, it's postwork. And I do see every day in the galleries what the program is capable of",

I thought that earlierr in the thread it had been made clear what the criteria for postwork was, ie: once an image has rendered.....if we scrap firefly render, python, shaders, skins, textures from the equation we might just as well post everything in the photoshop gallery.....and are you seeing what the program can do, or what the other programs can do that apparently enhance what poser does so appallingly according to opinion posted here, it makes me wonder why there are so many users, they can't all be modellers and texture makers....

on your point about posting, surely it would be up to you which gallery you thought the image most suited to, I can't be held responsible for someone elses decision making by my suggestion surely?

just playing devils advocate really, and waiting for my renders to complete.........

 for the life of me I can't see why people are so against the idea, it's not as if anyone is demanding self rule lol,

Indeed, mystic, I don't quite get the hair-splitting myself (other than that arguing over minute details is often quite fun).

Genre purists could argue all day about whether artistic looking nudes belonged in the pin-up gallery (along with the NVIAT's that didn't end up in fantasy); likewise, I'm sure we could debate which images did or did not belong in horror.

Quite a few images containing Poser content (and presumably posed in Poser) that were nevertheless rendered in other software still get posted in the Poser gallery.  There do not seem to be any hard and fast rules.  But it does sometimes give the wrong impression. It would be nice to see a gallery dedicated to Poser's rendering.

Whether or not someone has the money to buy the best content isn't any more relevant that asking whether or not they can afford the best rig.  In that sense, "in camera" does limit people with less powerful machines to much simpler images, as compositing very complex imagery in multiple layers would be a nightmare to do within Poser itself, notwithstanding the possibility of rendering a bunch of background layers pasted onto props and so on.

As for who posts in the galleries and why and whether or not the rules are fair... does it really matter?  We weren't talking about a competition with a cash prize, were we?  Just some galleries. Gosh.

Maybe the Poser community would be better heading over to Flickr...

"Quite disrespectful, and I don't see the connection between SM and DAZ. Here it is http://poser.smithmicro.com/gallery.html and is does answer the question what the program is capable of. Edit: Bagginsbill is in slots 5, 7 and 8."

Ironicly many of the really interesting images in that gallery to which  you just linked,
would not be allowed under a Draconian "no postwork" rule.

And I do see alot of DAZ& non poser native ,content  in that gallery like the
Sanctumart grim armor and the Soros7
Sci-fi hallway and of course ubiquitous V-chick.  
So yes that gallery does promote the usage Daz products
....but so what!
who cares!?
,as you correctly stated ,overall it is a decent representation of the kind of images one can ultimately produce with poser as the CORE engine in your OVERALL ARTIST TOOL SET, if one is inclined to make the effort.

IMHO a strict "no postwork" displayed gallery at smith micro would do NOTHING to convince potential buyers about the many overall abilities of Poser today.

"As for who posts in the galleries and why and whether or not the rules are fair... does it really matter?  We weren't talking about a competition with a cash prize, were we?  Just some galleries. Gosh."

Again which makes me wonder why the "no post work" advocates seem to believe that they are being somehow unfairly represented or even "cheated"
when they are perfectly free to post their untouched renders right now in ANY gallery category  and clearly announce in the description
"no post work of any kind involved"

Cheers

wolf359, nobody has ever said they were being cheated or under represented,,just purely that it is not possible to judge a Poser manipulators (I use that word in deference to the purists who will claim there is no art unless you postwork) effort in comparison to one that has been extensively postworked so therefore an non postworked gallery section would be one solution, all that has been mentioned is that it is not obviously an even playing field unless postworked renders bear an equally impressive "lots of postwork in so many different programs that the image bears little or no resemblence to the one that originated in Poser" tag which to be honest I very rarely see..........I think you really misunderstand the point of the thread, nobody is demanding, nobody is crying, nobody is upset over the lack of such a genre, the original question was "would it be an idea, what do you think",

as to the Draconian no postwork rule you mention, this would only apply to a gallery subsection genre of non postworked images voluntarily subscribed to, so I do find that quite a scaremongering ill informed comment to make, as if somehow suggesting that it would apply to all Poser galleries.....meh.....

you have your views and I respect your right to hold them, as Voltaire I believe said  "I may not believe in what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"

it does however seem to have devolved into a debate about what is the definition of postwork, in camera, compositing etc etc, which was only to be expected.........Again, I find it hard to understand why not? However in due deference to forum etiquette, I shall refrain from further comment and let the community decide........

Like MysticEagle, I can't understand why there are objections to it.  Nobody's forcing anyone to even post in that particular place if they don't want.  I still say it's a valid idea and one I'd certainly be interested in viewing, if not necessarily posting to.  I hardly render anything these days, other than test renders of stuff I'm rigging.

And, if someone can get a great result by using pre bought/made everything, it's still a showcase of what the software can do, given the right content.

*** Nobody's forcing anyone to even post in that particular place if they don't want.***

This.***

Quote - "As for who posts in the galleries and why and whether or not the rules are fair... does it really matter?  We weren't talking about a competition with a cash prize, were we?  Just some galleries. Gosh."

Again which makes me wonder why the "no post work" advocates seem to believe that they are being somehow unfairly represented or even "cheated"
when they are perfectly free to post their untouched renders right now in ANY gallery category  and clearly announce in the description
"no post work of any kind involved"

 

Cheers

Wolf, I'm certainly not an NPA! I think almost every render could use a little, if not extensive, work in Gimp or Photoshop, and I've never understood those who feel that postwork is some sort of cheating.  My favourite gallery members do extensive postwork (for instance, tiff666, who posts in Mixed Medium). I vastly prefer that sort of image.

The issue is that sorting through the galleries for images is a PITA. I don't want to have to use a search box to look for tags or text or whatever because I can't stand the way Rendo's searches work, and not everyone remembers or wants to write anything with their images.

It would be a whole lot more convenient not to have to search for tags and text because I could just click on a gallery and browse through it.

As for whether this would make those who regularly post in camera stuff feel better or even work better and be more inspired to improve because their images would appear sequentially with images of similar origin (Poser firefly render only, etc).  That's another question. But, really, why not give it a try?

In the end, what does it cost to add an additional gallery category? I mean, I guess one could make the slippery slope argument that we would end up with a billion different categories.  But then that's why this discussion ensued - to determine the merits of adding this category.

I don't think, really, that there's anything more to it than that.

"Wolf, I'm certainly not an NPA! I think almost every render could use a little, if not extensive, work in Gimp or Photoshop, and I've never understood those who feel that postwork is some sort of cheating.  My favourite gallery members do extensive postwork (for instance, tiff666, who posts in Mixed Medium). I vastly prefer that sort of image."

Hi I was agreeing with your statement about there not being any contests involved hence no "judging"
 sorry about any confusion
but Sam and kai are right  one more gallery sub cat
in the mix wont be that big of a deal if the mods decide to do it
but it makes for an interesting philosophical discussion.

Cheers 

Quote - "Wolf, I'm certainly not an NPA! I think almost every render could use a little, if not extensive, work in Gimp or Photoshop, and I've never understood those who feel that postwork is some sort of cheating.  My favourite gallery members do extensive postwork (for instance, tiff666, who posts in Mixed Medium). I vastly prefer that sort of image."

Hi I was agreeing with your statement about there not being any contests involved hence no "judging"
 sorry about any confusion
but Sam and kai are right  one more gallery sub cat
in the mix wont be that big of a deal if the mods decide to do it
but it makes for an interesting philosophical discussion.

Cheers 

Ah, I'm sorry. Re-reading I understand what you mean. :)

I think it WOULD be an interesting discussion, though the peace loving Renderosity forums might not the perfect venue for a debate which has the potential to get heated. ;)

For my half-pennies worth, I think a "no postwork" category or genre would be great.

I'm a newcomer to Poser... only got it when the current version came out last year.

Seeing better what things different people can get out of it, "straight", as it were, would be good.

To date, what few Poser renders I've posted in my gallery are not post-worked... that's largely due to my just being more focused on learning to use Poser and wanting to see what results I can get with that... it's forcing me to learn more about the poser material nodes and lighting... than if I just over painted in Photoshop, from the get-go.

However, got PS CS5, so would like to learn to post-work my images too, where it might be of benefit, in due course...

I'd almost like to see an explicitly "post-worked" category or genre in addition to a "no-post-work" one, from that point of view.

More interested in learning to use my PS software for textures right now... but as I learn more about the Poser material room though, from these forums, it seems there is so much can be done there just with the procedural and maths nodes anyway...

...as a hobbyist here, I am using Poser just for the sake of it... although I still l have pressures of time of course... if not any client deadlines... to consider, just for the very reason that it has to be fitted in around my work and family life.

Anyway, good topic of discussion I think :-)

My only objection to the separate gallery is that I feel it tends toward balkanization. One could well have a NPW gallery for every application and then various other subsets. That, if anything I think, serves to foster discrimination and discourages seeing the whole richness and variety of what people are doing. Of course people could use tags to limit their viewing but perhaps to a lesser degree. If you want NPW to be considered a 1st class citizen then keep it out there with everything else.

I was unaware that NPW was denigrated. There may be many reasons for such an attitude. Perhaps touting NPW is seen as arrogance, or the work of a technician as opposed to an 'artist,' or simply something that breaks the traditional norms. A good work is a good work, but anyone who knows even a tiny bit about the history of art knows that conflicts over technique, subject matter, style etc. are par for the course.

There's nothing with liniting yourself to a subset of the available tools. Sometimes self-imposed limits can lead to great things. Not everyone is going to understand that. It does perhaps leve one open to the criticism that one cares more about technology than art. The best rebyuttal to that is to make great art. IMO, if you emphasize NPW too much, then that is what people are going to concentrate on. Let them be moved by the work first and then look at the production methods. That is, of course, if art is the ultimate aim and not 'look what Poser can do.' The two are not mutually exclusive, but it is  probably true that the emphasis matters - whether to the creator or to the viewer.

Personally... being a newbie here and therefore tending to some extent to initially follow what I see other people doing, when it seems to be applicable... I've jumped on the practice of noting "no postwork" when I've uploaded stuff for two main reasons...

There was no post-work, so thought I should say that, as other people seem to... and also I thought it might help invite any constructive criticism that could be forthcoming... both in terms of what I could do better or might be doing wrong, in my non-postworked rendering...

...and indeed, maybe what might benefit from being post-worked.

"One could well have a NPW gallery for every application and then various other subsets."

take a look at the way Ro organises their galleries. all this would take is a simple "no Post Work" addition to the 2nd column. then you can have Max - NPW. Maya - NPW. Poser - NPW.

it's really not that big a deal.

kewl.  i like the idea of being able to filter the Poser gallery for 'no post work'.

I do see the benefit of a 'no postwork' gallery and would like to see one set up.  I am not against postwork and admire the skills that so many people possess but I am also interested in what the program can do.  I purchased Poser 2012 on the strengh of some of the renders shown on RDNA before the software was released and even now there is a seperate gallery there for Poser 9/2012.  OK, this does almost certainly have renders that have been postworked but for any potential purchaser the gallery does give a good idea what the latest verion of Poser can do.  

Even those with the earlier Poser versions could be interested in what is possible with their version and therefore give them some ideas of what they may aspire to. 

I am not so keen on such a gallery being hosted on a Smith Micro site only because it implies (even if this is not the case) that the renders are by people doing such for a living.  I do not have enough years left to reach those dizzy heights so I am more interested in what a hobbist, like myself, can achieve.

Just my view.

To me it sounds like you want to have a gallery named "Tech Demo", to see images that display the capabilities of the Poser software. Then the gallery should be named so. If it it called "No Postwork", secretly assuming it would work as a tech demo gallery you might not be satisfied with the result. In a gallery called "No Postwork", i would expect to be some good mixture of the work-in-progress gallery with the "forgot-to-enable-shadows beginners" gallery, where i could post my wireframe renders and screenshots. And if i would do so, probably a lot others will, too, because i am average.

Quote - To me it sounds like you want to have a gallery named "Tech Demo", to see images that display the capabilities of the Poser software. Then the gallery should be named so. If it it called "No Postwork", secretly assuming it would work as a tech demo gallery you might not be satisfied with the result. In a gallery called "No Postwork", i would expect to be some good mixture of the work-in-progress gallery with the "forgot-to-enable-shadows beginners" gallery, where i could post my wireframe renders and screenshots. And if i would do so, probably a lot others will, too, because i am average.

*lol * or the forgot to turn off floor renders

Anyone who is up for a challenge, using the theme "Mist" (sounded appropriate because of the last posters id ;), anything goes apart from any form of image enhancing once it has rendered , no prize , no glory, just my undying admiration..........or maybe the small plastic figure called NOPWA.......lol

Here you go.

Cheers

great work wolf, how much is it? i'll buy it or why not add it to your gallery? did you catch a hint of sarcasm? for some reason although it has no affect on you, you of all posters on this thread are the most opposed to the mere thought of a suggestion of a hint of an idea.

You are obviously a professional, well thats what your id says, so hey, why not be professional and courteous and get off my back...............

I have asked admin to close this thread, as I now feel that wolf359's constant attempts to ridicule and belittle this simple idea have now almost devolved into personal attacks, i may be paranoid but in all honesty i am truly disgusted by this "artists" attempts to ensure that his personal views are more strongly heard than the rest of the pro idea posters on it. In all honesty, the original thread was "what do you think", the consensus seems to be in general a good idea, but I suppose some people will always be opposed to change of any kind, even if  it is such an insignificant thing as a slot in a gallery. I am truly astonished by his blinkered attitude and if this is the behaviour of an industry pro, then I am truly glad to remain an amateur...............................................................................................

I thought I argued the point coherently and literally, maybe I didn't do as well as I could in stating my reasons, but nevertheless that is no reason for this gentleman to take the tone that he has...................

"I now feel that wolf359's constant attempts to ridicule and belittle this simple idea have now almost devolved into personal attacks,"

It is never a good idea to become emotionally invested in your forum threads sir.

"I am truly astonished by his blinkered attitude and if this is the behaviour of an industry pro, then I am truly glad to remain an amateur."

The  insignicant fact that  I accept payment for tinkering around in 3D graphics& animation programs does not make me a representative of any industry
and certainly does not make me an "artist"

"I am an amateur and proud of it"
Ahhh....indeed if there is anything that will inevitably result in getting your feelings  hurt , it is too much pride*

*(see human history)

Cheers

"the consensus seems to be in general a good idea"

Of course it is a good idea!

Some like to  filter the Poser gallery for 'no post work'. Others, like I would love to be able to filter out the category 'no post work'. So in this way all and everyone will be happy in this best of all possible worlds.

Wolf359, Pride has nothing to do with it, nor does emotional involvement, it is a little thing called democracy and freedom of speech which you seem to be keen to squash. You are quite happy to attempt to pick me apart by highlighting my forum signature and selecting quotations from my posts that suit your point of view. Human history has shown that there will always be the "intellectual bully", again you attack me personally, attacking my integrity, uncalled for, unjust and defintely not in the spirit of this thread or these forums......I ask that you desist from the personal attacks, address the issues if you have any more of substance to add.

"it is a little thing called democracy and freedom of speech which you seem to be keen to squash."

Hi in general A web forum ,hosted on privately owned servers, has no "free speech" or "democracy" for me to "squash"
(note the prohibition on religious/political debates for example).

"again you attack me personally, attacking my integrity, uncalled for, unjust and defintely not in the spirit of this thread or these forums......I ask that you desist from the personal attacks"

it is unfortunate that you feel personally attacked
but perhaps you should provide a list to a moderator
of examples where I called you a named ,disparaged your, renders ,your personality, or your integrity or character.
I have only expressed my views on the need for a special section for unaltered renders

"You are quite happy to attempt to pick me apart by highlighting my forum signature......Unlike youself with your film projects, IMDB listings, vendor items etc , I ............as a well meaning amateur, who cannot aspire to reach the dizzy heights of film production...i am truly disgusted by this "artists" ..........
I am truly astonished by his blinkered attitude and if this is the behaviour of an industry pro."

Ironic.

Cheers

Enough.

What started out as a reasonable, easily understood concept has devolved into an overthought, mess of personal attacks and distortions.

I think it is sad to bury a whole thread only because one(1) person have taken offense. Lets go on, it is a good idea.

For some years ago, there was a similar discussion in the Vue forum, and it ended by most of the purists migrating to e-on's official forum cornucopia. For obvious reasons e-on like people to use only Vue and nothing else.

But in real life people use a lot of programs and technology, post work in Photoshop is only one part of it. It is called workflow. But the purists they did frown upon that too, "you shall not have any other god". These two groups, technologist vs 'artists' (or aspiring artists) will never agree on anything.

Perhaps what would be good is if, as I think was mentioned earlier, Renderosity could make it possible to tag an uploaded image against multiple sections and genres...

e.g. so you could tag an image as being created using Poser, Vue and Photoshop for instance (sections) and specify its genres as, for example, historical and realism.

I appreciate exactly what the current, practical issues might be around doing this; 

Database table structure.

Nonetheless, I think it would be good...

;-)

Agree with Vintorex on both his points. One, I would go for the subcatagory no postwork so I could filter it out. And two, we should not be closing off discourse because one person has his feelings hurt and so everyong else now has to live in silence and the idea/resentment just festers.

I think one practical problem on which there will be disagreement is the strict application of what is postwork. Is it absolute, as in like nothing at all can enter a graphics program like CS, or PSP. Does it mean you cannot apply any cropping, cannot put a frame around it, what are your boundaries?

well. it was a good idea.

but now we're into bickering over details. I swear.. if God tried to create the world in the poser forum by saying "let there be light!"..... there would be a swarm of replies like "use an infinate" "buy this light set" "what colour" "I don't render in poser, I use..." "lights suck" "search for BB".....

ah well. all it needed was a simple catagory added... nothing more. use it or not....

We appreciate the suggestion of a "no postwork" Gallery.

At this time we will not be creating a "no postwork" Gallery. However, if we have enough requests for one when we do the surveys (which will be coming up in a few months) we will then discuss creating one.

Thank you again for the suggestion as it is very much appreciated.

It is now immaterial ^^^^^^^^^^however..............................

I beg to differ on the "feelings hurt " comments on a thread I started, what I objected to was the systematic demolition of the thread brewgirlca and vintorix, which as a mod brewgirlca,  I thought you might understand. I tried to express my reasons simply and asked the members for their views, once the thread started to appear to me as if one member was trying to ridicule my views for some reason, the above submission from wolf359 being such an example, i felt in my view justly affronted. I have never tried to ram my views down other peoples throats. I still hold by my view that it is and was a good idea, but that is all it ever was, not an attempt to fill the galleries with underworked atrocities, not an attempt to create an impossible workload for the mods and coordinators, just a simple idea which had some support. Maybe I am guilty of over reaction , but in the real world I would not have put so polite a response...................................

Kristi has answered the request of this thread. I see no need for it to stay open since it seems you guys can not simply talk about something you feel would benefit the community.