i've seen poser users complaining on the old daz3d about genesis and studio things not working in poser...

what about complaining about all poser content that isn't working in studio?

to many clothes i've seen sold here in the shop that aren't working with dazstudio :(

why vendors not sell products for both programs?

anyone think about that?

Which ones don't work in Studio?

As far as I know all V4/M4 clothing items work fine in Studio except Dynamic Clothing which the vendors would be happy to supply I assume if DAZ would release the toolkit to do so

Simple:-

1. Certain materials that work in POser do not work in Studio.

1. Time.

03 Software Preference.

Answer to 01. If you have amazing materials that only work in Poser, why not use them. Just because Studio cannot use them does not mean that those materials shouldn't be used.

Answer to 02. With all the materials etc. there is not enough time in the day to check which do and don't work with  STudio.

Answer to 03. Why should someone who just works in Poser, have to make those items Stusio compatible? It's down to the content maker as to how they make things.

All the best.

LROG

Daz studio was developed after poser. Daz chose to not to support many feature of poser when developing it.

Many things (like dynamic clothing) don't work in Daz Studio because they chose not to include the features neded for it in daz Studio.

People have been crying for years to get daz to support closer compatibility, but instead they have chosen alernate formats and solutions.

This statement is aimed at no one in particular. No one is out of line (yet.)

This is the Poser forum.

Discussions of this sort will not be allowed the disintegrate into flame wars of Poser vs Daz.

The question has been asked and answered (very intelligently.) No arguments, please.

yeah no wars please!

Quote - Daz studio was developed after poser. Daz chose to not to support many feature of poser when developing it.

Many things (like dynamic clothing) don't work in Daz Studio because they chose not to include the features neded for it in daz Studio.

People have been crying for years to get daz to support closer compatibility, but instead they have chosen alernate formats and solutions.

I wonder if daz came up with more new technology soon, something more advanced as available today in poser world.

do you think that would change anything in poserworld?

(and please let us not start war here, it 's just a question)

Dynamics is somthing that can be done so easily in Poser.

Just a quick go in a modelling program to get your mesh right.

Then load as an OBJ and save as a prop.

Done.

Now the problem is that Poser dynamci items don't work in Studio.

Form a base mesh I can have a dress made in a few minutes and a fully dynamic item in less sthan 5 minutes.

Now......

You can't do that in Studio. They have been asking for it for a long time.

In the end, it's down to what the software can do and what the content makers can do with those limitations.

In the past I have gone out of my way to make my freebies available to both Poser and Studio users. Now it's not possible to do it all the time.

DAZ has gone one way with Genesis and so both sides now have to find solutions to their own problems.

Both sides have their attractions and distractions. it's a case of living with what we have.

All the best.

LROG

Gareee's points are very relevant.

I think that people need to accept that Poser and D|S are different applications. And thus they should not expect content that works in one to necessarily work in the other. It's is a bit like asking "Why doesn't the vegetarian restaurant serve roast beef?".

As a Poser user who makes the occasional freebie, I make them in Poser for Poser. This is not because I have anything against D|S, it's because I don't want to spend the time to learn D|S, and I don't want to nobble the products by removing features just because they don't work in D|S. I'm sure many D|S users feel the same in respect to Poser, and I don't blame them for that.

End of rant. I'm off to get some marshmallows.

I make clothing that works in poser. The reason I don’t worry about whether or not it works in DS is that I have never used DS and have no idea what it would take to make clothing that works in it.

I think the points made earlier are very important.  Poser and DS are two different programs. My thoughts are that if I was going to make clothes that worked both in Poser and DS, I would package them separately. I would not be trying to sell one package that works in both programs, but two different packages. One for Poser and one for DS.

Dead easy for me to answer.  I cannot - and have never been able to - run any version of DAZ Studio on my computers. 

My thoughts are that if I was going to make clothes that worked both in Poser and DS, I would package them separately. I would not be trying to sell one package that works in both programs, but two different packages. One for Poser and one for DS.

I agree, I have seen those pakcages with both versions, but why would a Poser user that doesn't use Studio want the Studio version.

Better to seperate the item and charge a less price, or.....

Do a Stduio vesion, a Poser version and..... a bundle.

This then covers all situations.

All the best.

LROG

I think Durf it boils down to a matter of preference and knowledge, my personal preference is to make stuff for poser, for no other reason, as ToxicWOlf said, that I would have no idea what was needed to make them for Daz Studio as in the last 12 years I've only ever tried DazStudio a couple of times. I'm pretty sure that if you were to post the anti question on Daz's site, exectly the same would be true. It's just different strokes for different folks, without getting embroiled in a D vs P battle for supremacy... One last point though, there are many older versions of Poser out there massively used, that don't support the new material settings in current versions if I am correct in my assumption, and  I'm sure at some point someone will ask , why so and so only makes stuff that can be used in more recent versions. I guess that will be the P vs P battle to come...

Yep, MC6's came in with Poser 6, but I ted to still use MAT files.

And yep, there are things that cannot be used unless you have the lates versions, such as SSS or weight mapping, but that's progress.

All the best.

LROG

Quote - I agree, I have seen those pakcages with both versions, but why would a Poser user that doesn't use Studio want the Studio version.

Better to seperate the item and charge a less price, or.....

Do a Stduio vesion, a Poser version and..... a bundle.

This then covers all situations.

All the best.

LROG

I agree with you on the Studio - Poser - Bundle concept. 

If it says Genesis, I ignore it even if it comes with a Gen4 package.  My time is valuable.

I actually flirted with the Poser vs Poser question myself a few years ago when creators began to use shaders attached to their skin mats. I bought one that was absolutely TERRIBLE... I mean, the character could not be used in a scene with any other character because it rendered so light.

I made a post asking vendors not to do this sort of thing, and to stick with Mats for skins.

To this day, I remember the answer (from Bagginsbill, of course) explaining to me that is was not the idea of using shaders that was bad... it was probably the shader I had was poorly designed. I posted the material room advanced screen capture, and I could almost see him throwing up his hands when he saw it. He posted back, telling me how to fix it, and we were off to the races.

The inclusion of shader technology in Poser figures is what has ultimately given us SSS and many other steps toward a more natural look.

Did I want it at the time? No. Am I glad it came? Yes.

Users of older versions of Poser will eventually come around as they see more and more renders that they would like to emulate, and decide to set the money aside to do the upgrades.

To try and make a product that works under all circumstances is impossible. P9 designed pieces will work about as well in P4 as they do in Dazstudio. It is simply the feature set that is important to you that decides the platform you operate on and use to design your products.

Quote - > Quote - I agree, I have seen those pakcages with both versions, but why would a Poser user that doesn't use Studio want the Studio version.

Better to seperate the item and charge a less price, or.....

Do a Stduio vesion, a Poser version and..... a bundle.

This then covers all situations.

All the best.

LROG

I agree with you on the Studio - Poser - Bundle concept. 

If it says Genesis, I ignore it even if it comes with a Gen4 package.  My time is valuable.

Actually, while my experience is limited, the few packages I've purchased that say V4 & Genesis, there's a separately packaged Genesis file.  I just don't download that file.  I have no need for it, so I'm not wasting any time with it.

As I say, my experience is limited though, because I've only purchased a few character sets that were for both.

@ basicwiz:

I've decided right off the bat that when I start to sell stuff again, they'll come with very basic shaders, so that they can be used to get reasonable results in most versions of Poser but, should anyone wish to get better results, they'll be pointed in the direction of BagginsBill's store and his amazing stuff.

No way on earth I could compete with what he comes up with so I think it's only fair he should get any follow on sales that may occur.

The thing with that is... Your buying something that you are only half using for the same full price.

Do a bundle ok, but also do seperate ones as well.

It's a bit like seeling a diabetic 2 types of sweets and one of them isn't sugar free, they only get half the fun for the same price.

All the best.

LROG

Amen to that, Sam!

I was working on a new character (for sale) when a disk crash ate him. I didn't even bother with shaders to go with my skin mats... I ran it through EZSkin with and without SSS and was going to package that.

No point in re-inventing the wheel when brighter minds than mine have already given us (free) solutions that I could never come up with on my own.

Doing separate packages for Poser and DS with a bundle option really benefits all of the users. 

Simple example.

Poser Package cost: X

DS Package cost: Y

Bundle cost: Z

Z is less that X+y but more than X or Y individually, and other people don’t have to pay for what they don’t use. The bundle price is what I would have to charge for the work performed to create them both. The people that only want Poser functionality don’t pay for DS functionality and DS people don’t pay for Poser functionality.

Given that pricing scheme, I will buy from you, Wolf!

Quote - The thing with that is... Your buying something that you are only half using for the same full price.

Do a bundle ok, but also do seperate ones as well.

It's a bit like seeling a diabetic 2 types of sweets and one of them isn't sugar free, they only get half the fun for the same price.

All the best.

LROG

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.  A perfect example is Ireland for V4 and Genesis.  Because I'm a Prime Member, I paid $3.50 for the product.

Any lower price, just because there's a Genesis file that I didn't download is silly.

As it is, vendors are getting next to nothing at full price, and most don't pay full price. At $12.00 and change it's a steal.

The people that only want Poser functionality don’t pay for DS functionality and DS people don’t pay for Poser functionality.

And that's what all vendors should think like, if they work with both systems.

But coming back to a previous point.

No content maker should be put in a position of "You should make it for X, Y, Z program" syndrome.

Make it to the best of your ability for whatever system you feel happy with.

I just make freebies these days, so I'm only doing things I want to do in Poser.

One of my previous freebies, M4 Battle Vest came with Poser only materials, but......

It loaded up with Studio friendly colours so that they could use their own shaders etc. It was a work around, but it did help both sides.

All the best.

LROG

At a Prime price yes, I agree, but if you are not a Prime member then it just doesn't make sense to pay say $12 for something that you can only use half of.

For that, I would have:-

Prime Price - $3.50

None Prime

Poser Only - $7.00 - PA gets $3.50

Genesis Only - $7.00 - PA gets $3.50

Bundle - $12.00 - PA gets $6.00

All the best.

LROG

You should also keep in mind what that person paid for the prime membership.

Quote - At a Prime price yes, I agree, but if you are not a Prime member then it just doesn't make sense to pay say $12 for something that you can only use half of.

For that, I would have:-

Prime Price - $3.50

 

None Prime

 

Poser Only - $7.00 - PA gets $3.50

Genesis Only - $7.00 - PA gets $3.50

Bundle - $12.00 - PA gets $6.00

 

All the best.

LROG

I'm just stunned that you think $3.50 is acceptable for a product, especially one that requires the kind of work a character texture does.

shakes head

No need to shake head.

Business sense says that if you price something in a certain price bracket both get the best of the result.

Make something too low, the PA does not benefit, the user does.

Make something too high, the PA and the user does not benefit.

If you make somethig for $100 and it only sell s 1 you get $50.

If you make something for $10 and it sells 10, you get $50.

Yes, you are selling at a smaller price, but in the end it is units sold that counts.

I've seen some really overpriced things recently and too be honest they haven't been worth the price.

I, as a buyer, look at certain things first before I buy, the big thing is price.

People can make things and charge over the odds, but if they don't sell then it means nothing.

All the best.

LROG

Quote - No need to shake head.

Business sense says that if you price something in a certain price bracket both get the best of the result.

Make something too low, the PA does not benefit, the user does.

Make something too high, the PA and the user does not benefit.

If you make somethig for $100 and it only sell s 1 you get $50.

If you make something for $10 and it sells 10, you get $50.

Yes, you are selling at a smaller price, but in the end it is units sold that counts.

I've seen some really overpriced things recently and too be honest they haven't been worth the price.

I, as a buyer, look at certain things first before I buy, the big thing is price.

People can make things and charge over the odds, but if they don't sell then it means nothing.

All the best.

LROG

There's a point at which pricing things lower does not result in sufficiently more sales, and just helps to contribute to an undervaluing of products.  Consider prices in stock photography, for example.  25 cents for a photo that required hiring a model is going to require a lot of sales just to break even.  Yet on sites with thousands and thousands of photographers, it's extremely difficult to get those sales.  A few, who have managed to live through lean sales in the early going and have finally built up a huge market as well as higher rankings (so more visibility on the website), may manage to make decent earnings overall.  But almost everyone else is getting pocket change.

Such markets greatly reward early members and power sellers.  But it's hard for others to compete when a huge volume is necessary just to cover costs.

ETA:  I've noticed an increase in Poser content prices in some instances.  But I think it's long overdue, and may very well, in the end, result in an overall improvement in quality.   That's not to say I'm not a fan of Rendo Prime.  :)  Because I am definitely a fan of Prime.

"Dead easy for me to answer.  I cannot - and have never been able to - run any version of DAZ Studio on my computers. "

Your hardware cant be that old...can it??

Even I can run DS 2.3.6 on my Old 2007 white macbook
I keep DS installed to use the animate+ plugin for easy  nonlinear motion mixing and export to animated PZ2 for use in Cinema4D/poser.

Cheers

Quote -
Your hardware cant be that old...can it??

Even I can run DS 2.3.6 on my Old 2007 white macbook
I keep DS installed to use the animate+ plugin for easy  nonlinear motion mixing and export to animated PZ2 for use in Cinema4D/poser.

Cheers

Age isn't always the reason.  DS4 doesn't run on a 1st Gen MacPro.  Mine is only 4 years old & way over specc'ed, No chance of running.  From the error report, it looks like DS4 is attempting to write to the kernal - which as been a no-no since at least the early 90's.

"Age isn't always the reason.  DS4 doesn't run on a 1st Gen MacPro."

Oh I imagine DS4 does require a very recent model Macintosh.

I am just a little surprised that Sam has never been able to run any of the early versions of DS (1.7- 2.3)

Although I admit that the hardware requirements for DS are "strange"
considering My "old"macbook can run:
Maxon Cinema4D R11 studio with Vray.
Nextlimit Realflow4
Nextlimit Maxwell Render
Luxology MODO401
Newtek Lightwave 3D 9
Adobe After effects CS3
Apple Shake 4.1......and so on.

But no loss here obviously

Cheers

Quote - "Dead easy for me to answer.  I cannot - and have never been able to - run any version of DAZ Studio on my computers. "

Your hardware cant be that old...can it??

Even I can run DS 2.3.6 on my Old 2007 white macbook
I keep DS installed to use the animate+ plugin for easy  nonlinear motion mixing and export to animated PZ2 for use in Cinema4D/poser.

Cheers

Yup, they really are that old.  Can't afford to upgrade.  :( 

90% of the content I do create works fine in Poser & DS. the 10% left that only works in Poser and doesn't work in DS, is either using poser shaders or a modeling feature not supported by DS. Poser will import about any .obj file, but DS doesn't. I've create a few models that worked great in Poser, but caused problems in DS. After spending hours of searching for what was causing the problems, I gave up and simply released it for Poser only. Thar only happens once in a while, not too often.

Quote - i've seen poser users complaining on the old daz3d about genesis and studio things not working in poser...

what about complaining about all poser content that isn't working in studio?

to many clothes i've seen sold here in the shop that aren't working with dazstudio :(

why vendors not sell products for both programs?

anyone think about that?

Poser was here first. At first DS used Poser's files like Poser did for the most part. After that Daz forked off after DS3. Vendors will continue to do what they know how to do well if it still makes them money. Path of least resistance.

Laurie

One point that has not been brought up is the rigging problem. Not all of Posers joint zones will work in DS. Nothing P9 specific and up will either.

If a vendor wants to make something for program "A", they do not have to make it for program "B".

Many people here use a lot of different progams to do 3D work in. If suddenly things had to work in all of them, they would probably stop making things.

Look at all the programs listed in peoples signatures.

What will work in all of them???

Simple answer... Not much...

Surely now, given the way in which DS4 has apparently branched away from Poser in terms of functionality and compatibility, this is a bit like asking why all vendors don't make products that work in both Vue and Poser?

The answer is, some do, some don't... but they're distinct applications, with, now, reasonably diverse compatability issues to contend with.

A lot of vendors will only have the resource (or indeed inclination) to focus on making items for any one given program?

Poser vendors are largely engaged in a hobby. How many vendors actually make a living by creating Poser content? 2%? I suspect the majority doesn’t even have to declare earnings when weighed against their expenditures for software upgrades. Considering the time, energy and trials of patience involved -- not to mention the ever-increasing chance that there will be no just compensation in this "new normal" of slow-motion economic collapse -- you're lucky to have poser vendors at all.

High-res photos + Substance Designer anyone?

I agree with what many above say. Procedural shaders belong to users, not vendors. There are so many powerful environments out there that far surpass anything you can do in Poser. But when you finish, bake everything to a simple mat and publish. There is nothing more sad and intimiating for the average user as to open the material room and envisage a labyrinth of shader and nodes. Shaders are hit and miss, trial and error even for bagginshill. ("finally after several days I finish my gold shader" -baggins ). It take far longer to understand such a mess than to make it in the first place.

For some months ago I try to argue the same but was totally squashed. I am happy to see that many has come to their senses.

I am perfectly happy with the material room and all the nodes it provides.

If you belong to the click and render crowd you can always use the basic material room which does exactly what you would like

"I am perfectly happy with the material room and all the nodes it provides."

"If you belong to the click and render crowd.."

And what do you belong to? If you are a user everything is ok in this best of all possible world. If you are a vendor you are not doing your job.

For my own part, I am perfectly happy with the 'material room' in Cinema 4D.

When did this become about shaders?  There are a lot of things besides shaders that are incompatible between Poser and DS. Not just the shaders.

To vintorix: I think you're a vendor or want to be a vendor, aren't you? I would hope that people that buy from you are not as hard on you as you seem to be on vendors in general ;). Seems to be a common thing with you that vendors, by and large, are idiots. I'm not sure how we got to "Why only Poser compatible stuff?" to "vendors aren't doing their jobs with shaders".

Laurie

If you have one very good map you are in a good position to publish both for Poser and Daz. As that is the best way anyway (instead of delivering a mess ) so why not keep to that? From where did you get that I don't respect vendors? Now that I know more, I have the utmost respect for them. There are no such thing as an incompetent vendor. The competition weed out the inferior ones.

Maybe it's the language barrier then.

Laurie

Shaders may be hit and miss to design, but that all lies on the vendors plate for the most part.   I cant understand why a vendor wouldn't set up a shader that offers the best result for their product.    For the end user they usually will only have to actually read the readme and follow a few simple lighting and render settings tips for any 'complex' shader to deliver the expected results.  

Pretty much everything about 3d rendering is hit and miss if the person doing the render cant be bothered to learn how to use the program and how to set up a scene.  

Now I'm admittedly have a bit of an elitist attitude (not that I am in any way elite) when it comes to purchased content.  I'm working on getting something ready to release,  will I include a 'basic' non-shader version of the material?... No damn way!

Why? .. because whenever that product is used and posted in a gallery it will reflect on me personally and I dont want the shit results that you get from poser 4 level rendering attached to my name in any way.  I'm going to work on it until what I distribute represents my very best, and if that doesn't work on x version of poser or this or that software...  well tough titties... it'll state clearly on the description what it does work for and nobody will have a gun to their head forcing them to buy it.

As a customer I expect no less in the product I buy.  If I buy something and the shader it ships with cant replicate the render quality shown in the preview, I'm mad as hell.  If the preview renders look like they were done in DS or poser4/5 I dont bother buying at all unless I'm in love with the geometry and willing in advance to put the work in to make the product acceptable

My two bits 

Quote - High-res photos + Substance Designer anyone?

I agree with what many above say. Procedural shaders belong to users, not vendors. There are so many powerful environments out there that far surpass anything you can do in Poser. But when you finish, bake everything to a simple mat and publish. There is nothing more sad and intimiating for the average user as to open the material room and envisage a labyrinth of shader and nodes. Shaders are hit and miss, trial and error even for bagginshill. ("finally after several days I finish my gold shader" -baggins ). It take far longer to understand such a mess than to make it in the first place.

For some months ago I try to argue the same but was totally squashed. I am happy to see that many has come to their senses.

 

 

 

I do not agree at all that a good map, even a very good one, makes up for a propper shader set up.  Not that I want to see a plate of spaghetti in my material room every time, but just a map plugged into diffuse channel usually wont deliver much better than average results

Quote - If you have one very good map you are in a good position to publish both for Poser and Daz. As that is the best way anyway (instead of delivering a mess ) so why not keep to that? From where did you get that I don't respect vendors? Now that I know more, I have the utmost respect for them. There are no such thing as an incompetent vendor. The competition weed out the inferior ones.

 

Mari, Substance Design, 3ds max, Maya, Cinma4D etc all provide a far better and more versatile 'material room'. And the result when baked surpass anything you can hope for in Poser. In addition you don't impose a straight jacket on the user -he is free to play in Poser's material room, he has a clean slate so to speak.

That is only sound logic and common sense. But why not check some top vendors on a random basis and you will find that they all provide material that look great with only a bump map and Posers standard lightening.

 In addition, you can export to another program and still hope for a good reult.

Quote -  But why not check some top vendors on a random basis and you will find that they all provide material that look great with only a bump map and Posers standard lightening.

Do you have some examples of this vint? 

I haven't bought anything in a long long time here, except BH's Anastasia, but I can assure you there's far more than a bump map and standard lighting going on there. I would post a screen shot of the material room but I don't want to piss off BH. 

~Shane

Quote - Mari, Substance Design, 3ds max, Maya, Cinma4D etc all provide a far better and more versatile 'material room'. And the result when baked surpass anything you can hope for in Poser. In addition you don't impose a straight jacket on the user -he is free to play in Poser's material room, he has a clean slate so to speak.

That is only sound logic and common sense. But why not check some top vendors on a random basis and you will find that they all provide material that look great with only a bump map and Posers standard lightening.

 

Hi Vintorix

Of the various content, from top vendors, that I have, I'd have to say almost all of it looks better with Bagginsbill's shaders replacing most of the defaults... certainly when these defaults are just using diffuse and bump image / colour maps.

I had understood that raytraced reflection and refraction, and so on and so forth, are not catered for in just image maps... is that not the case??

I am a Poser newbie, relatively speaking. I couldn't mix up a shader myself from scratch.

But its easy enough to copy a shader recipe from a forum. Or, like I've done, buy Bagginsbill's new products, or EZMetals, etc, and work largely just by applying materials from the Material section of the Library... and from there, copying and pasting nodes, etc.

What you're talking about, to me, sounds like a step backwards??

If it is that easy for me to improve materials I get with products, why should a vendor not do that, before they ship their product.

Is it not the case that the top end 3D software packages all, also have equally or more complex shader systems than Poser in fact? The difference is maybe just that they have more, cutting edge, material presets available off the shelf? But this is, in part, why they are so much more expensive.

Cheers ;-)

Quote -
Is it not the case that the top end 3D software packages all, also have equally or more complex shader systems than Poser in fact? 

I can't say for all those other titles, but Maya at least, uses a node-based shader system that makes even the most complicated poser setup look like kindergarden homework. I actually failed shading & lighting my first time through, due to how complex Maya's shading is, and wound up having to go buy my own book on the subject just to get through the course the 2nd time.

~Shane

As a Poser2010 user, i can understand what vintorix and the OP mean. With Poser 2010 they built in gamma correction into Poser (someone might have read about it). But they built it into the pro versions only, not the cheap versions, probably not the best idea they had, but anyway: i think vendors want to get the most customers, so they continue to make complicated materials that somehow fake gamma correction with the cheap poser versions, some of them likely unknowingly. Because DS has gamma correction built in, too, the vendors would get similar problems trying to support DS as they would by trying to support gamma correction in Poser2010.
So when a vendor writes in the README "Materials for Poser only", my brain automatically translates this into "Poser 5 materials only, because i do not know what gamma correction is, Poser2010 users beware!" (Of course they cannot write it literaly, because if they do not know what GC is, they will only see that it does not work, not why it does not work). So when buying models from vendors i do not know, i look if there are DS materials included, even if i never plan on using them. A vendor who is capable of creating materials for both DS and Poser should have have at least a rough understanding of what gamma correction is and how to deal with it (at least i hope so).
Unfortunately the reverse is not true, so as a fallback option i look if there are Poser4 or PoserProPack materials included. Those usually seem to be very simple (so called click-and-render-crowd materials) and probably can easily be made to work in both DS and Poser, regardless of the version. Most of e.g. Stonesmason's materials are of that kind (who btw does not seem to have major problems making good stuff for both DS and Poser).
So the net effect is, that if i want to know how easy it would be to use a product in Poser2010, i have to look if that product supports DS or Poser4; and this sounds a bit awkward, does it not?