What do you guys consider user friendly?

I'd like you to perhaps think of applications outside poserdom too, rather then DS vs. Poser... perhaps games, or other apps... be it mac or PC or online or other platforms....

Lot of freedom to tweak thinbgs, or more modular approach, or maybe two levels of things?

The thing is, in order for ANY figure to be widely accepted enough to be worthwhile for vendors to support it, it would have to be at least as good as, and preferably an improvement on, the V4/M4 figures.  And really, how likely is it that anybody but DAZ could or would create such a thing?

At this time, what it would take is more money in people's pockets. I doubt there will be much movement until that happens. I could be wrong.

User friendly?

Manageable size. => Not everybody has super trooper machines or software to morph.
Do not build for yourself. => Build for your clients.

Look after the poly distribution. => Is is far more important then poly count.

Use one large texture map instead of multiple lower resolution maps. => It makes material room management a LOT easyer. Poser is not limited to 4096X4096 maps.

Take particular care with the rigging and check all morphs wirth the rig.

Do not use any hidden magnet or bone.
Not every end user or content creator can manage hidden things. (they have to find out they are there in the first place)

Work for the mass. Do not work for the few. => or you limit your customer base before you even start.

Put yourself in the position of a client with a Low end PC or MAC.

Marketing;
Everything U use in the promo renders HAS to be in the package.

The end user has to be able to reproduce your promo renders with what is included.
In some countries there are laws for that.

happy Posering, Tony

Quote - At this time, what it would take is more money in people's pockets. I doubt there will be much movement until that happens. I could be wrong.

If what I hear is correct, both Poser and DAZ as companies got started as guys finishing college and art schools getting together and turning their final school projects into a business.

Funding for thngs can sometimes be found in very unexpected places, if one thinks to look outside of the box.

When I think of Genesis, I think of Apollo Max.

Genesis can scale from Adult to Child? Apollo Max did that already in the LATE 90's!!!!

The scaling is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Kudos to Daz3d for building on a UNIMESH technology

What about morphs? Those can be added. A properly built mesh (waves to Vilters!) should enable one to do the same as the UNIMESH idea.

Or not.

Want a feminine looking male or a masculine looking woman, break out a Poser Tool called the Morph Brush. Leverage the tools you have, not what you don't. Heck, break out ZBrush or Sculptris or Mudbox if you have to. Who says you MUST have to have 1 mesh to do it all? (Have we been tainted/influenced/mesmerized by the marketing Kool-Aid ™?)

So if it is not solely about THE MESH, then SMITH MICRO and WHAT EVER TEAM THEY PUT TOGETHER, needs to leverage the technology that Poser9/Pro 2012 has in it.

If the scaling features are "broke" in Poser, then they need to fix it. (Apparently the scaling in APM works, so other figures should be able to have it work/do it also.)

Smith-Micro should not be afraid to pull a page (or two) from the competitor regarding figures, as the competitor wasn't afraid to built an app that "competes" with them.

@Ian Porter re: Anton's stance about APM. I understood all of that, that is why I mentioned that SMITH-MICRO engage in that regard.

@Wolf359 re:  "I don't recall them ever adopting, refurbishing & recycling any vestigial figures that were created & abandoned by their creators years ago.

IMHO there exists no evidence of them(SM)being interested in such an undertaking as they need to be looking forward for solutions to improving poser figures..... not backwards"

That too is understood, but for two things. That vestigal figure is has features that 1) no figure SMITH-MICRO has and 2) took almost ~10 years for SM's competitor to...for lack of a better term...ape (no pun intended). 

If SMITH-MICRO does not want to be stuck under Daz3d's whims for using the Genesis tech (and they do not), build off a platform (old as it is, but you know works) and go from there. If it can built fresh and they do not want to "look backwards" then SMITH-MICRO should go ahead and do it. Why reinvent the wheel?

Money is indeed a factor.

Never forget that most Poser users are way over the point of no return in V4/M4 investments.

If you want to pull that market towards your figure??

It better be special.

Quote - User friendly?
Do not build for yourself. => Build for your clients.

What would you consider user friendly?
I'm asking because 'user friendly' is such a catch phrase that can cover a huge territory and variety of preferences, not all of them very compatible with one another. Some people want speed of use, others want versatility, someone else focuses on animation and low poly high figure number scenes, other people prefer ultra detailed close-ups etc... Many of those require different design considerations.Who do you see as the customer base? 

Quote - It better be special.

I think that really goes without saying.

Quote - > Quote - User friendly?

Do not build for yourself. => Build for your clients.

What would you consider user friendly?
I'm asking because 'user friendly' is such a catch phrase that can cover a huge territory and variety of preferences, not all of them very compatible with one another. Some people want speed of use, others want versatility, someone else focuses on animation and low poly high figure number scenes, other people prefer ultra detailed close-ups etc... Many of those require different design considerations.Who do you see as the customer base? 

For me, the fewer clicks between what I want and where I am forced to start, the more friendly the product.  Example: Conforming v Dynamic cloth, hair that automatically "jumps" onto the head of the selected figure even if the hand or w/e is selected and not the head/full figure, etc.

"Bad art:"  Load nekkid toon, load stock pose, load and conform clothing and "smart hair," print w/o rendering.

"Good art:"  Most anything in the Renderosity Gallery.

Currently, I make bad art while I teach myself and study tutorials so I can make good art.  The fewer clicks between bad and good, the more likely I am to consider buying a product.  Then, of course, it becomes a matter of content value v dollar amount.

Who uses Poser??

And for what purpose?

That is your client base?

About 95% is a hobby guy/girl, at home during a spare hr in the evening using a (average) 3 year old machine..

5% are the die hards. The specialists that master everything. Have huge PC/MAC capability, and know how to build, morph, rig, texture. => you do not have to build for those => they know it better then you and me.

Build for the mass out there.
That often do not have, or have limited Internet and rarely come here or elswhere.

Make your figure user friendly means:

The average hobby guy/girl has to be able to make something within the hr, not having to worry about a thing.
It has to work, right out of the box. (download.) 

Click load, cloth + hair, load a few props, and render.
And the result should make him/her smile and go to bed with a good feeling. I made something tonight.

he/she, should not have to spend hrs and hrs to adjust some 20-30 material zones if he/she wants a change.

he/she should not have to worry about how to adapt a clothing because it was (by accident, LOL) made for another figure.
Should not have to worry about what to do with a clothing because a morph screwed it up, or a bad rigging made it intersecting with the figure.

Poser and its figures should become more user friendly for the masses out there.

How often do we see the same questions over and over agian?
Analyse those questions and you know what user friendly means.

Please, please, not wanting to start anything here but??
User friendly is a part of what made DAZ start using ZIP files instead of their installers.
Zip files are more user friendly, as the user has the option to install what he/she wants, where he/she wants.

An *.exe file is more technology advanced, but a ZIP file is more user friendly.
Sometimes a step down is better for everybody.

Happy Posering
Tony

Another thing that goes w/o saying, so I will go and say it, is:  Provide excellent customer support for your own products regardless of what they are or how old they may become.  I recently sent a few questions to a vendor here about a product several years old - and got full, usefull answers within just a couple of hours.

Try to anticipate what someone new to Poser would ask (including things like file management if your product has a lot of things in it), how best to light it (if it has a lot of angles or high/low spots to create/catch shadows), etc.  A primitive box prop would not need much time to learn, but a room set with several texture/mat options, its own furniture included, and its own light set would probably get a few questions if only "will the custom lights install themselves in the same folder as the lights that came with my program, or do I have to do that manually?"

I didn't read all 5 pages of posts just the first 2. On those first 2 pages I didn't see one key ingredient mentioned

In my mind and per my dedt card stats you have-had two main stores. Here and Daz. I say had only because for a Poser user the Daz store is becoming all Gen products which doesn't do me any good so I barely go there anymore.  RDNA and CP are nice stores but not as popular. For a new character to take root in Poserverse it has to be sold here and given a nice presentation, a forum to support it and so forth. I mean no offense to the other stores. I am just looking where 80 to 90 percent of my money is spent on content. When I want to see what content is new I check here first, then RDNA, CP and maybe Daz in that order since Gen was released and the V4M4 new product decline at DAZ. Daz before the the Gen characters used to be almost tied where I check especially on Tuesdays and Thursdays. (freebee and Plat Club item release days)

As a example our companies products sold online do reasonablly well until Amazon stocks and sells them and then take off like gang busters. Being on the top online retailers website for our product category adds a boat load of creadibility to the product. Sold by a 3rd party on Amazon is not the same as Amazon stocking, selling it and promoting it themselves.

Today, maybe things will change in the future as they can do in this market place, if Rendo had a vested interest in the success of any character, they have the sales and promotion engine behind the scenes to make it work I feel better then anyone else or atleast on par with Daz's marketing engine. Just ask my debt card how much it screams when a Rendo newsletter or promo deal-discount sale announcement shows up in my email. Put this new character on a lesser website and it becomes an after thought quicker then it should, because people see the bulk of new content here first and somewhere else second.

The success of Daz characters is marketing. To give this new character a fighting chance it needs lots and lots of marketing. Where else are you going to get it at the level required today. Think the super suit Daz just released. I bet I got 10 emails talking about it. I didn't get one talking about any of the recent poser wm characters other then the mention of new content released in the store here or on rdna. I got the announcement of the characters release in the forums here. See my point. So you understand, I am looking at this thru the eyes of a person who markets and sells a physical product. You can have the greatest widget in the world. But undless the world knows about it and the product is deemed to be credible in the market place, good luck.

That's my 2 cents plus inflation and I repsect all differences of opinions.

Gary

Quote - I didn't read all 5 pages of posts just the first 2. On those first 2 pages I didn't see one key ingredient mentioned

In my mind and per my dedt card stats you have-had two main stores. Here and Daz. I say had only because for a Poser user the Daz store is becoming all Gen products which doesn't do me any good so I barely go there anymore.  RDNA and CP are nice stores but not as popular. For a new character to take root in Poserverse it has to be sold here and given a nice presentation, a forum to support it and so forth. I mean no offense to the other stores. I am just looking where 80 to 90 percent of my money is spent on content. When I want to see what content is new I check here first, then RDNA, CP and maybe Daz in that order since Gen was released and the V4M4 new product decline at DAZ. Daz before the the Gen characters used to be almost tied where I check especially on Tuesdays and Thursdays. (freebee and Plat Club item release days)

As a example our companies products sold online do reasonablly well until Amazon stocks and sells them and then take off like gang busters. Being on the top online retailers website for our product category adds a boat load of creadibility to the product. Sold by a 3rd party on Amazon is not the same as Amazon stocking, selling it and promoting it themselves.

Today, maybe things will change in the future as they can do in this market place, if Rendo had a vested interest in the success of any character, they have the sales and promotion engine behind the scenes to make it work I feel better then anyone else or atleast on par with Daz's marketing engine. Just ask my debt card how much it screams when a Rendo newsletter or promo deal-discount sale announcement shows up in my email. Put this new character on a lesser website and it becomes an after thought quicker then it should, because people see the bulk of new content here first and somewhere else second.

The success of Daz characters is marketing. To give this new character a fighting chance it needs lots and lots of marketing. Where else are you going to get it at the level required today. Think the super suit Daz just released. I bet I got 10 emails talking about it. I didn't get one talking about any of the recent poser wm characters other then the mention of new content released in the store here or on rdna. I got the announcement of the characters release in the forums here. See my point. So you understand, I am looking at this thru the eyes of a person who markets and sells a physical product. You can have the greatest widget in the world. But undless the world knows about it and the product is deemed to be credible in the market place, good luck.

That's my 2 cents plus inflation and I repsect all differences of opinions.

Gary

I think another classic example of good marketing was the Poser Ambassadors in front of the Poser 9/2012 release. 

THAT was excellent marketing, utilizing the artists/vendors who had a investment in the product to push interest and keep the anticipation level high, and it lasted for months!

Gary, you are right.
Creating a hype is a must to get things started.
And then constantly feed the hype to keep the momentum going.

Quote - > Quote - there seems to be a general interest in normal non-perfect people with normal non-perfect proportions, having normal non-perfect skin and wearing normal non-perfect clothes. IMO we can do without the 200% hydrated supermodels in their clothless coverage.

Depends on which stream you consider mainstream, though.

as much as some may wish it so, this is not a mainstream attitude. one need only look at the what is successful in the marketplace and galleries to see what people want to buy/use.  despite the fact that for the last 10+ years people in this forum have been assuring content creators that they should make 'Chubby Homemaker with unshaven legs/pits, wild 70's bush, sack dress and morphing rolling pin prop', sales wouldnt even cover the time spent making promos.

welcome to reality.

Although I agree with this comment, on what sells, and I've bought way more figures than I'll ever use, I think I just might buy that figure described, just to good to be ignored.

Quote - 3rd party figures made by individuals are not the answer.

i am in 100% agreement that in order for a figure to become mainstream it needs to be a team effort -- and also needs SM, Daz, Rendo, or RDNA standing behind it, endorsing it and continually pimping it to get the ball rolling.

i dont see the point of making a 3rd party figure just for the sake of it, unless it brings something new and significant to the table:  such as a combination of better bending, more content-creator friendly features and UVs, and some sortof open source license to allow deeper development, etc.

I have to agree with this too. But I'll go further and say the figure should be free or damn close and the very good morph add on package must be very reasonably priced. So you giving away the farm to make money off the feed. This is why the figure has to be backed by the big boys (or girls if you wish).

I wonder sometimes if the days of Vicky's are done, and the standard is Antonia 1.0. At this point I'm more interested in Antonia 2.0 (than Antonia standard, wm, 1.2, V6, or Miki 4). V5 was the best looking Vicky, but I don't see a lot of poser renders with her. Jumping though hoops to start using a figure is a no go. Open source and open development are the way of the future.

I like the fact you could use v4 skins on genesis, but clothing was not a acceptable solution in my opinion. I don't like the way clothing fits on extreme morphs, so that's no selling point, it a nice gimmick but that's all. If the figure can't bend with extreme morphs, if the figures clothes can morph well to the extremes then don't go there. Though with a morph brush a lot is possible.

The figure has to bend well, they have to look gorgeous naked. I don't do nudes, but if the figure can't bend then I'm not wasting my time on clothing them. I know that maybe a stupid way of looking at it, but I found myself never getting past posing, with many new figures

Quote - This question may be self explanatory...What would Non-DAZ figure need to become poserdom mainstream?...

     I hate to say this, but imho based on events in the Poser-verse of the last year there will NOT be another mainstream figure.

*Quote -*As a vendor that creates a lot of characters here is my take on what it would take to make a new salable base character.

1) She has to look like a girl with a sweet, cute youthful girly face.

Not a tough masculine face. European not Asian, (but morphable into Asian and other ethnic looks) Sweet and hot like a cheerleader sells.

No matter how great her body is her face sells her first. Look at all the ads in the marketplace of the top selling products .Even the vendors buy those sweet girls to market their products with. Why? Because that type of face sells products.

2) She absolutely MUST morph into  both a voluptuous girl, busty, small waist, dreamy hips or slim and youthful. No boobs no sales for the base character.I know. I've tried marketing most of the "other characters".

3) She would need a weight mapped and a non weight mapped version. There are far more customers running older version of Poser that do not take weight mapping than there are that use it.

Strictly speaking from a vendor's standpoint. The absolute best thing that could happen for the marketplace would be an upgrade of Poser to support Genesis.

The market is so fractured from this rift it has cost all of us dearly.

It would be nice if everyone could play nice again.

These are my opinions as a vendor that would really like to see the market get stronger which would benefit everyone.

cheerio

lululee

Very well Said!! In addition, I think the figure needs to be:

1. more versatile than V4 (Gen4)

2. have equal or better morph packages compared to V4 (Gen4)

3. have better topology than V4 (Gen4)

4. Must be compatible with pre P8 earlier (unfortunately this leaves the new WM semi out of the picture)

5. Must be as easy, but preferably easier to use than V4 (Gen4)

6. Should have compatibility with clothing for V4 (Gen4), preferably with on the fly and new figure generation options

7. Should have the ability to generate subtle asymetrical features

8. Should be able to use V4 (Gen4) UV's as well as UV's optimized for the figure

9. Should integrate with the face room

10. Must have the ability to morph into a multitude of drop dead gorgeous figures with near unrealistic proportions. Everyday girls are good - but they don't sell that well.

11. Must have a whole closet full of custom made .... um .... slut wear as many call it when the figure is released, as well as some everyday and period clothing.

12. Must be a very high quality mesh with top notch rigging that is easy for vendors to make stuff for. Ease of use for both the end user and the vendors would be a key factor for any new figure to come close to the success and support of the Gen4 family.

I'm sure I forgot several items here. IMVHO simply being a beautiful figure won't do it, if the figure doesn't provide several big advantages over V4, support and sales will be limited. Look at Anastasia, what an awesome job Blackhearted did with her (she was the main reason I got P2012), and yet 3rd party support for her simply isn't what I'd thought it would be.

 I hate to say this, but if you look at both mine, and Lululees lists, that figure that shall not be mentioned by name already meets most of those requirements. That company that shall also no be mentioned by name obviously put a lot of thought into it. They knew that in order to generate sales for a new figure, it would have to offer a lot that V4 couldn't.

Oh, I also forgot to echo what so many others have said, without branding and marketing, marketing, marketing, and marketing, the success of another figure will be difficult.

Possibly been said already.. I have not read the whole thread.. primarily the figure needs to be continually supported by the company that creates it.  I honestly think it is too much for one person or a small group to accomplish on their own.  To generate the support base, it needs to have content pumped out by a company who has the money to spend in order to roll out content even when the independant 'starving artist' & 'hobbyist' vendors dont have the financial incentive to jump behind it.    I think whomever creates the figure will literally need to buy mainstream support for it and hope they are able to recoup the investment down the line.  To me it seems like SM is the best candidate for this as they can consider increased poser sales as part of the 'recouping'.  The question is... can they actually come up with a figure that is good enough that the 'price' of buying mainstream will be something that they can handle!

Quote - The figure has to bend well, they have to look gorgeous naked. I don't do nudes, but if the figure can't bend then I'm not wasting my time on clothing them. I know that maybe a stupid way of looking at it, but I found myself never getting past posing, with many new figures.

If someone boxes up everything I need to build a shelving unit that meets my immediate and short-term future storage needs and is priced low, but looks like crap, bet me I still refuse to buy it or bother to haul it home even if it is free.  If it looks like I could do it just as badly, I will do it myself and save the money by spending the time.  If a vendor wants me to spend the money, they have to spend the time up front so I will want to spend the time enjoying whatever it is.  The more stuff in the box, the better that stuff looks and/or works, and how much it costs determines if I buy that product or not and whether I would want to buy from them again.

Quote -  Open source and open development are the way of the future.

Sorry but open source does not pay Mr. Bill. If you want quality figures and quality content you have to be willing to pay for the talents of a quality artist. We've all seen what "free" gets us.

Even Daz isn't giving their models away for free anymore. 

~Shane

Quote - The thing is, in order for ANY figure to be widely accepted enough to be worthwhile for vendors to support it, it would have to be at least as good as, and preferably an improvement on, the V4/M4 figures.  And really, how likely is it that anybody but DAZ could or would create such a thing?

Well, I most certainly believe someone other than Daz could create such a thing. Daz isn't the be all/end all of the modeling world ;). All it takes is someone, a trained modeler, who is familiar with Poser and the processes of rigging, morphing, etc. It certainly isn't rocket science and Daz exlusive.

Laurie

Quote - Question for the modellers here: Say I have a clothing mesh I made for V4. How hard is it to take that same mesh and resculpt it to Anastasia? Is it easier to start over from scratch?

Resculpting itself is pretty easy. I resculpted several pieces, but we encountered a problem when it came to rigging conformers. There was some sort of a glitch in the donor rig that made it impossible to finish the conformers at the time. This was about february/march. After that I got super busy with school and had to step away from the projects till the end of May.

I think my poser developer guru, Nerd3D (one of the guys whose name is on Poser credits splashscreen, if you don't know who he is) mentioned this has been fixed, or about to be fixed last time I talked to him, few weeks ago. I need to talk to him again to know more detail, and how much more I can say without violating NDAs.

I'd love to be able to finish those, so I don't end up with couple months of work down the tubes. I have three or four sets of conforming clothing conversions resculpted and re-morphed, just waiting to be rigged. Now that the intense semester is over, I have to poke Nerd and see waht is new with that.

I already lost good 4-6 months of work this last summer due to Genesis and DS4 bugs. It's gotten to be a really bad 12-14 months in trying to support emerging figures. Very frustrating.

In part it's been good because my income dropped so low I was able to get full federal and state aid to go back to school (game concept art and design program at one of top 10 schools in the US)...

Quote -  The success of Daz characters is marketing. To give this new character a fighting chance it needs lots and lots of marketing. Where else are you going to get it at the level required today. 

Yes, I've always been very convinced of that. It would have to make a HUGE initial splash. And I'm not thinking just at Rendo and Forums, but all kinds of 3D and CG media. A full fledged well thought out marketing and advertising campaign.

Quote - > Quote -  Open source and open development are the way of the future.

 

Sorry but open source does not pay Mr. Bill. If you want quality figures and quality content you have to be willing to pay for the talents of a quality artist. We've all seen what "free" gets us.

Even Daz isn't giving their models away for free anymore. 

 

~Shane

EXACTLY. While free is real nice, human beings inherently value something they pay for more than something they don't. It's in our nature. Besides, paying the artist keeps the goodies coming rather than hoping that the freebie creator doesn't get bored or worse yet, resent the fact that they ever gave it away for free to begin with.

As for Connie's quesiton: For me, user-friendly means versatility. I don't have to have one click. Never did. If I have to do more than a few clicks that's fine by me. But I want the whole slew of morphs, body shapes, etc. I wanna be able to make it look like anyone I want. Poser's usefulness is in the fact that you can do MORE than just click and render. And that's where it's power lies. As for a dense mesh....yanno, I wouldn't even be playing with 3D if I didn't have a modern machine that could handle it. Those that are using Poser with a rickety old 1 gig computer - I feel sorry for them but they are NOT NOT NOT the average user. The average user has a computer that can more or less handle these things. I want enough mesh to do great morphs. If it has to be a bit more dense, so be it. I hate low poly stuff...lol. That was Poser 4. We're long past that ;). That's not to say that it shouldn't be optimized, but I think we've reached the point where we'd all like a little more mesh to work with.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote -  The success of Daz characters is marketing. To give this new character a fighting chance it needs lots and lots of marketing. Where else are you going to get it at the level required today. 

Yes, I've always been very convinced of that. It would have to make a HUGE initial splash. And I'm not thinking just at Rendo and Forums, but all kinds of 3D and CG media. A full fledged well thought out marketing and advertising campaign.

I couldn't agree more ;) Marketing hype is everything these days.

Laurie

Interesting thread and I have come to a simple conclusion. WE do not have the marketing capability to make any new figure a success. Thanks to SM's attitude towards its own software and content, its success relies on us, and that is not enough. We do not have a big marketing budget. We are simply users. You need SM themselves to get behind it. Even if they do that is a problem. They are pathetic at marketing. You cant expect them to all of a sudden take on the well oiled Daz machine. Look at their own site Content Paradise. Who even goes there? Not even an active forum. There is no buzz, no vibe. Its a good example of their marketing abilities. Its dead and static. THIS new figure needs the SM and Poser name attached to it to get anywhere beyond the rest. There needs to be a sense of ownership. Can you honestly see SM doing that successfully? Please....They will probably hand it over to RDNA or here to sell and promote and rely on us to spread the word. That says a lot about how they operate. They have relied too long on users to generate hype with no marketing assistance from their side, hense why all new figures never get anywhere, regardless how awesome they are. Antonia had the opportunity to gain some traction. With a little funding and direction she would have been a success and would reach more users. What did SM do to help? NOTHING. Have SM even created any content for her? Or anything recently content wise? Do they even have a content developement team? You can't expect this attitude and situation to change anytime soon. You need time to hire an entire team to focus on this. Daz have all these structures in place and it didnt happen over night. Yes this new figure will come and yes it will be awesome. Will it be Mainstream and attract enough vendors? I dont think so. I do not see SM and their current marketing ability being able to make it a success. This whole issue needs to be addressed before considering a new figure. Otherwise it will come and go like the rest with only a few elite people still poking and disecting it for fun years after its release.

Quote - > Quote -  Open source and open development are the way of the future.

 

Sorry but open source does not pay Mr. Bill. If you want quality figures and quality content you have to be willing to pay for the talents of a quality artist. We've all seen what "free" gets us.

Even Daz isn't giving their models away for free anymore. 

 

~Shane

Everything I said was just my opinion. I have watched your development of you figures, and suggest anyone reading this thread go check them out, they are impressive. I truly hope they end up as good as they look, and you seem to know what your talking about (I know nothing about it developing a figure). Daz artists get paid I'm sure. I got v1 – v4 for free, and genesis was free (v5 being a morph), and I use v4 the most. I've paid for at least 12 others (likely many more), and with the exception of DAZ troll, and A3, I don't use most of them very often.

There are many people on the forums, who tell an artist they should charge a fortune for their products, and most of them never buy any of it. I do buy many figures, but I'm in the minority.

I truly hope your figures are successful, not for your sake but for mine, cause I'll likely end up buying them.

Quote - Interesting thread and I have come to a simple conclusion. WE do not have the marketing capability to make any new figure a success. Thanks to SM's attitude towards its own software and content, its success relies on us, and that is not enough. We do not have a big marketing budget. We are simply users. You need SM themselves to get behind it. Even if they do that is a problem. They are pathetic at marketing. You cant expect them to all of a sudden take on the well oiled Daz machine. Look at their own site Content Paradise. Who even goes there? Not even an active forum. There is no buzz, no vibe. Its a good example of their marketing abilities. Its dead and static. THIS new figure needs the SM and Poser name attached to it to get anywhere beyond the rest. There needs to be a sense of ownership. Can you honestly see SM doing that successfully? Please....They will probably hand it over to RDNA or here to sell and promote and rely on us to spread the word. That says a lot about how they operate. They have relied too long on users to generate hype with no marketing assistance from their side, hense why all new figures never get anywhere, regardless how awesome they are. Antonia had the opportunity to gain some traction. With a little funding and direction she would have been a success and would reach more users. What did SM do to help? NOTHING. Have SM even created any content for her? Or anything recently content wise? Do they even have a content developement team? You can't expect this attitude and situation to change anytime soon. You need time to hire an entire team to focus on this. Daz have all these structures in place and it didnt happen over night. Yes this new figure will come and yes it will be awesome. Will it be Mainstream and attract enough vendors? I dont think so. I do not see SM and their current marketing ability being able to make it a success. This whole issue needs to be addressed before considering a new figure. Otherwise it will come and go like the rest with only a few elite people still poking and disecting it for fun years after its release.

Sorry, but I don't want SM to become the "new DAZ."  They did some incredible marketing around the Poser9/2012 release.  Every bit as good as any marketing campaign DAZ ever did.  And they marketed based on their true strength - users who take their base software right to the very edge of it's capabilities.  Users who could post a new and thrilling feature about to be released every single day.  Users who added renders with all the new features. 

That marketing plan works.  Not a danged thing wrong with it.

I have bought nearly ever figure I own, the only exception being Mike 4. I bought him in morphs and textures. A lot of vendors (but not all) do 3D as a full time job. It's not fair to expect that they can even afford to give it away for free. I don't mind buying a figure if I really want to have it, and if I can't afford it, I'll wait until I can. I certainly have enough to keep me occupied until then :P. It's just the Daz mentality talking...they have us all spoiled with the free figures and rock bottom prices. Truth is tho, that it's hurt the little guy. They had to devalue their items just to sell them.

I dunno. I have a certain respect for a vendor. 3D, and especially Poser rigging and the modeling and the texturing is a LOT of work. At most I bet they don't make more than 8 dollars an hour doing it, if that. Unless they sell hundreds. And of those there are only a lucky few who can demand that type of loyalty.

Laurie

I do see where V01f is coming from. After all, what gets posted in a little forum like here and RDNA is only seen by a fraction of the people who have actually bought the software. We're just a small bunch....lol. And anything shown here won't go very far without a marketing campaign. So I see your concerns. If Daz did anything right it was their ability to generate hype...especially with submissions to 3D magazines. How much has SM done that? Have they ever? I have no idea really, but if they have I haven't heard of it. I've heard of and seen Daz doing it tho. They also send out mutiple weekly emails. A lot of emails...lol.

Laurie

Quote - I have bought nearly ever figure I own, the only exception being Mike 4. I bought him in morphs and textures. A lot of vendors (but not all) do 3D as a full time job. It's not fair to expect that they can even afford to give it away for free. I don't mind buying a figure if I really want to have it, and if I can't afford it, I'll wait until I can. I certainly have enough to keep me occupied until then :P. It's just the Daz mentality talking...they have us all spoiled with the free figures and rock bottom prices. Truth is tho, that it's hurt the little guy. They had to devalue their items just to sell them.

I dunno. I have a certain respect for a vendor. 3D, and especially Poser rigging and the modeling and the texturing is a LOT of work. At most I bet they don't make more than 8 dollars an hour doing it, if that. Unless they sell hundreds. And of those there are only a lucky few who can demand that type of loyalty.

Laurie

However, you also can't price it out of your customer's financial reach either.  I've paid for a lot of characters myself, but I'm simply not buying much right now because this economy sucks.

Even though I've managed to cut my expenses dramatically, I'm still not spending because I just don't know how much worse it gets before it starts to get better.

And I'm sure any content creator weighs that heavily when pricing their items ;). And I feel your pain...BOY do I ever...lol. And nearly everyone I know is in the same boat :(

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Interesting thread and I have come to a simple conclusion. WE do not have the marketing capability to make any new figure a success. Thanks to SM's attitude towards its own software and content, its success relies on us, and that is not enough. We do not have a big marketing budget. We are simply users. You need SM themselves to get behind it. Even if they do that is a problem. They are pathetic at marketing. You cant expect them to all of a sudden take on the well oiled Daz machine. Look at their own site Content Paradise. Who even goes there? Not even an active forum. There is no buzz, no vibe. Its a good example of their marketing abilities. Its dead and static. THIS new figure needs the SM and Poser name attached to it to get anywhere beyond the rest. There needs to be a sense of ownership. Can you honestly see SM doing that successfully? Please....They will probably hand it over to RDNA or here to sell and promote and rely on us to spread the word. That says a lot about how they operate. They have relied too long on users to generate hype with no marketing assistance from their side, hense why all new figures never get anywhere, regardless how awesome they are. Antonia had the opportunity to gain some traction. With a little funding and direction she would have been a success and would reach more users. What did SM do to help? NOTHING. Have SM even created any content for her? Or anything recently content wise? Do they even have a content developement team? You can't expect this attitude and situation to change anytime soon. You need time to hire an entire team to focus on this. Daz have all these structures in place and it didnt happen over night. Yes this new figure will come and yes it will be awesome. Will it be Mainstream and attract enough vendors? I dont think so. I do not see SM and their current marketing ability being able to make it a success. This whole issue needs to be addressed before considering a new figure. Otherwise it will come and go like the rest with only a few elite people still poking and disecting it for fun years after its release.

Sorry, but I don't want SM to become the "new DAZ."  They did some incredible marketing around the Poser9/2012 release.  Every bit as good as any marketing campaign DAZ ever did.  And they marketed based on their true strength - users who take their base software right to the very edge of it's capabilities.  Users who could post a new and thrilling feature about to be released every single day.  Users who added renders with all the new features. 

That marketing plan works.  Not a danged thing wrong with it.

To promote their software yes. Poser as a software name is already established. This new figure is not. A totally different marketing approach has to happen. One similar to DAZ and how they get their figures out in the open. Look at how well poser looks after its own figures in terms of support. See where I am coming from? Its easy to market something that has been around for long EG Poser, but to market something new is a totally different ball game.

A figure doesn't have to cost a small fortune for the creator to make a profit from it and be worthwhile to both him/her and their customer base. It just needs to be reasonable for both sides and deliver what the customers want, just like anything else on the market. You're not going to make a fortune selling one or two items, but over time if your items are quality and affordable by the majority, you build that rep and customer base and that's where your success comes from. 

~Shane

 a bit like the angry birds story really.

But there wasn't any games like angry birds. It was unique and different SO it had time to grow. There are however shit loads of figures lol.

Yeah, the first Angry Birds was more less word of mouth - until ppl knew who they were. You don't see with subsequent releases..lol. I saw Angry Birds something or other on the tv the other day ;).

Laurie

Speaking as a consumer, I'd probably buy a new figure, just as I bought Anastasia -- out of curiousity.  But, even with a moderate amount of support, I might not buy a lot of what was released for the figure, because...

I have an enormous amount of legacy content.  Much of it is clothing, and much of that can be converted, with varying degrees of success.  But an awful lot of it is morphs and skin textures.  Without a decent texture converting plugin, I find it hard to get excited about the prospect of a new figure.  It would have to be better than what I have right now, and I'm finding that hard to imagine.

A family of fantastic and well supported figures that shipped with Poser would not necessarily shake the coins out of my wallet. BUT I'm sure they would be a godsend for new users who are not burdened by their order histories.

Smith Micro probably needs to create them, lest they remain dependent on the availability of legacy Daz content forever.

Frankly, I'd be happy if we could get firefly and the cloth room to function in Daz Studio, or Genesis in Poser.  The former won't happen, but I'm with the guy wondering why more effort hasn't been expended on the latter, ETA: and I'm sorry if I missed that convo -- I often tune out in the middle of a thread that gets really personal.

Oh, "marketing," my ass.  DAZ never did any real "marketing" in its life.  What it did do was come out with figures that were superior to any others available to Poser users, and since they were superior, they became "the" figures-- and DAZ just proceeded to capitalize on that and continue improving its figures.

Apollo?  Please-- that thing is what, seven or eight years old at least?  I bought it in the very early days, when it was at RDNA-- $50, down the tubes-- just to see what was so "revolutionary" about it.  Well, surprise, surprise--- nothing was.  Yeah, some of the joints were rigged a little better than M3's (no big feat), and it had an extra section in the torso, and the toes were fully poseable (which is mostly "overkill")-- but that hardly added up to REVOLUTIONARY!!!  And there were things about it that were totally lame, like the half-modeled teeth and the horrible topology on the back.  For a one-man effort, it was pretty good... but it wasn't "revoluntionary," and it certainly can't hold a candle to M4.  Or to-- dare I say the G-word?-- Genesis.

It really all comes down to one question:  Is the figure superior to M4/V4?  If not, then forget it.  It's not going to catch on, it's not going to become popular enough to attract the support of "serious" vendors, and it's just going to languish in the same little backwater limbo into which so many other figures have sunk.

"Apollo?  Please-- that thing is what, seven or eight years old at least?  I bought it in the very early days, when it was at RDNA-- $50, down the tubes-- just to see what was so "revolutionary" about it.  Well, surprise, surprise--- nothing was.  Yeah, some of the joints were rigged a little better than M3's (no big feat), and it had an extra section in the torso, and the toes were fully poseable (which is mostly "overkill")-- but that hardly added up to REVOLUTIONARY!!!  And there were things about it that were totally lame, like the half-modeled teeth and the horrible topology on the back.  For a one-man effort, it was pretty good... but it wasn't "revoluntionary," and it certainly can't hold a candle to M4.  Or to-- dare I say the G-word?-- Genesis."

This^

Cheers

Quote - It really all comes down to one question:  Is the figure superior to M4/V4?  If not, then forget it.  It's not going to catch on, it's not going to become popular enough to attract the support of "serious" vendors, and it's just going to languish in the same little backwater limbo into which so many other figures have sunk.

Yanno we ARE talking about POSER users here ;). And it may catch on to Poser users. I don't think any one expects that it would catch on with DS users. And that wasn't even the original question. With the right person modeling and getting the word out and vendors on board that make GOOD stuff, not the crap I've seen come out for other recent figures it has a chance. With POSER. Can't use what are now dead figures forever. And I don't mean Apollo ffs. Much as I loved his things, Anton is too big of liability for any 3D venture. I'm pissed SM is resurrecting an old G2 figure. NEW..that's what ppl want NEW and better than the last iteration. And if Daz doesn't give it to them, they WILL get it somewhere else. Whoever thought a rinky dink operation like Daz would become the standard for Poser figures? I didn't at the time that's for sure.

Laurie

Quote - Oh, "marketing," my ass.  DAZ never did any real "marketing" in its life.  What it did do was come out with figures that were superior to any others available to Poser users, and since they were superior, they became "the" figures-- and DAZ just proceeded to capitalize on that and continue improving its figures.

 

Apollo?  Please-- that thing is what, seven or eight years old at least?  I bought it in the very early days, when it was at RDNA-- $50, down the tubes-- just to see what was so "revolutionary" about it.  Well, surprise, surprise--- nothing was.  Yeah, some of the joints were rigged a little better than M3's (no big feat), and it had an extra section in the torso, and the toes were fully poseable (which is mostly "overkill")-- but that hardly added up to REVOLUTIONARY!!!  And there were things about it that were totally lame, like the half-modeled teeth and the horrible topology on the back.  For a one-man effort, it was pretty good... but it wasn't "revoluntionary," and it certainly can't hold a candle to M4.  Or to-- dare I say the G-word?-- Genesis.

 

It really all comes down to one question:  Is the figure superior to M4/V4?  If not, then forget it.  It's not going to catch on, it's not going to become popular enough to attract the support of "serious" vendors, and it's just going to languish in the same little backwater limbo into which so many other figures have sunk.

 

ROFL, not THAT'S funny.

DAZ sends out emails titled "Enter At Your Own Risk" with links to a crippled website and store and you say they never marketed a thing in their lives.....

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhaa, that's marketing like no other.

LOl ye it was classic. But still marketing..

Yeah, what a debacle...lol. I actually felt bad for em ;).

Laurie

Quote - LOl ye it was classic. But still marketing..

LOL, yep.  In fact, so intensely marketing they couldn't turn it off even while the website was crippled.  By the time they shut down the marketing pipeline, the store was working again.

Quote - A figure doesn't have to cost a small fortune for the creator to make a profit from it and be worthwhile to both him/her and their customer base. It just needs to be reasonable for both sides and deliver what the customers want, just like anything else on the market. You're not going to make a fortune selling one or two items, but over time if your items are quality and affordable by the majority, you build that rep and customer base and that's where your success comes from. 

 

~Shane

Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop a figure of the quality of M4 or V4?  It takes about two or three (or more) YEARS of effort by a whole development team.  It's not something that Little Mr. Intermediate-Level Modeler can bang out in two or three months.

DAZ was able to sell its figures for a very low price-- or even give them away free-- ONLY because it was also a brokering store and thus was able to make money off the tons of add-on products made by vendors.  An independent developer (or developers) wouldn't be in that position-- so they'd have to (a) charge a pretty good price for their figure, AND (b) sell a hell of a lot of copies of it in order for the enterprise to be profitable.

You know, if SM would make a figure with a great human modeler (and we have a lot in the community) and then hand it over to Gabe for morphing and Mike for weightmapping/rigging, one day Poser users might just say "Daz who?" SM should put em on the payroll if they're smart ;).

Laurie

Quote - I didnt:) They shoulda done more testing before going live. Anyway back on topic...

LOL, no pity here either.

Quote - You know, if SM would make a figure with a great human modeler (and we have a lot in the community) and then hand it over to Gabe for morphing and Mike for weightmapping/rigging, one day Poser users might just say "Daz who?" SM should put em on the payroll if they're smart ;).

Laurie

The fact that they havent already is sad. You telling me there are no SM talent scouts on these forums?

Quote - Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop a figure of the quality of M4 or V4?  It takes about two or three (or more) YEARS of effort by a whole development team.  It's not something that Little Mr. Intermediate-Level Modeler can bang out in two or three months.

 

DAZ was able to sell its figures for a very low price-- or even give them away free-- ONLY because it was also a brokering store and thus was able to make money off the tons of add-on products made by vendors.  An independent developer (or developers) wouldn't be in that position-- so they'd have to (a) charge a pretty good price for their figure, AND (b) sell a hell of a lot of copies of it in order for the enterprise to be profitable.

And that could never happen again? Apple could never be profitable again? Trump could never build and lose a fortune twice? C'mon...ya can never say never ;). It's just silly. If people are motivated enough, they can.

And again...Daz sold for a low price many years later. When I bought Vicky 1 and all her basic accoutriments, she set me back nearly 200 bucks. Not exactly a low price for a hobbyist ;).

Laurie