Quote - Fortunately, they'll sell a tutorial by me meant to make using Genesis easier, but then if an axe falls it'll be on MY neck, not theirs ;)  

Cheers,

 

Cliff

Didn't know you could reference that other content place that starts with Render...and ends with a here :laugh:

Plus all the axes in free stuff here look like the edge is too dull to do the deed...:scared:

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Thanks for the detailed reply of where we are and why we are here as far as Genesis and Daz/Poser is concerned.  It is only my opinion, but if we could have had a similar statement from any source a long ago a lot of the flame wars would never have started.

I continue to read with interest what can be done but as it stands now, your description of the limitations probably means I am going to contimue to play with V4WM for while into the future.  That said, I will continue to follow any progress that is described in this manner.

Quote - I continue to read with interest what can be done but as it stands now, your description of the limitations probably means I am going to contimue to play with V4WM for while into the future.  That said, I will continue to follow any progress that is described in this manner.

Same here. If I need a troll in a French maid outfit, I'll definitely go through the process.  Otherwise, not quite yet.

However, that's a long step forward from "No bloody way!"

Thank you to everyone who contributed thoughtfully to this thread.  It's been very useful.

Quote - Thanks for the detailed reply of where we are and why we are here as far as Genesis and Daz/Poser is concerned.  It is only my opinion, but if we could have had a similar statement from any source a long ago a lot of the flame wars would never have started.

No problem. I've had enough difficulty getting people to officially tell me things in public or even unofficially tell me things in private, from either DAZ or Smith Micro, that I haven't wanted to put my personal take on the situation too firmly. The more time I spend using Genesis the more I like it, but then the more frustrated I become that the actual situation with Genesis and Poser seems unclear.

Also, of course, not everyone has always been 100% happy with my attitude towards things. I haven't taken ANY bs... err, marketing courses at all so I don't have a good "sales" pitch. Alas, I tend to just tell things as I see them - for good or ill.

Quote - I continue to read with interest what can be done but as it stands now, your description of the limitations probably means I am going to contimue to play with V4WM for while into the future.  That said, I will continue to follow any progress that is described in this manner.

Don't get me wrong - there's plenty to like about Genesis, or I'd never have bothered with a tutorial. But there's also been plenty to like about V4, for years. If V4 - with or without weight-mapping - can do what you need for a specific task/job/image then I'd still use it today. Or Freak, or... whatever fits the bill. I've never been one to buy a new car just because the number plate is updated, and I feel the same way about other tools - there has to be something, some actual positive aspect that draws me towards wanting the new version of X if I have an older version of X still in good working order. Genesis didn't have that factor for me when it originally came out, nor for some time after - but as the add-ons get more interesting, so my interest in the base "platform" has increased.

Unfortunately, my love of DS4 has not blossomed with my increased interest in Genesis. I'm a Poser guy at heart, so I'm glad that DAZ and Smith Micro improved on the initial interaction between Poser and Genesis, and I've repeatedly petitioned for more... and in my own small way I try to push things just that little bit further - in part becuase I want to use Genesis in Poser.

Cheers,

Cliff

Edit for PS...

Quote - If I need a troll in a French maid outfit, I'll definitely go through the process.

What do you mean "if"? don't we all need a troll in a french maid's uniform and The Freak in a tutu? no? why are you looking at me like that...

Quote - Final total is 130 and all done. Just got to do the boots now!!! Lol.

What on Earth have you been working on???

Cheers,

Cliff

What on Earth have you been working on???

Poison Suit over at RDNA

Just starting doing the boots.

All the best.

LROG**
**

I just grabbed it Cliff; I found a $10 store credit in my DAZ account for some unknown reason which I put to good use. 

However, I'm going to be super busy for the next month or so, starting by getting ready for a White Mountain trek, including Mt. Washington, later this week...

Quote - What do you mean "if"? don't we all need a troll in a french maid's uniform and The Freak in a tutu? no? why are you looking at me like that...

Well, now that you mention it...

Oh, wait... Actually, I forgot about kids. Why did I forget about kids until you posted one?  There aren't enough Genesis renders of kids and pre-teens.  They should be a major selling point. 

Quote - Also, of course, not everyone has always been 100% happy with my attitude towards things. I haven't taken ANY bs... err, marketing courses at all so I don't have a good "sales" pitch. Alas, I tend to just tell things as I see them - for good or ill.

It's refreshing to hear an honest opinion without any of the marketing and coercion. Well done to you and thank you for your efforts with this. I am sure it will make lots of people happy.

Quote - Well, now that you mention it... Oh, wait... Actually, I forgot about kids. Why did I forget about kids until you posted one?  There aren't enough Genesis renders of kids and pre-teens.  They should be a major selling point.

Because we're dumb? Actually I hadn't thought to show any such render until someone mentioned to me (in private) that Poser can't morph Genesis all the way from V4 to the Troll to a young child. I'm afraid I have a bad reaction to being told "you can't do this" in general - all the way back to my high school years my general tendency has been to set about doing exactly "that" (it's how I got into computers in the first place!) and having written this tut I saw no reason that kids couldn't work. Maybe he hasn't read my tut :( If you look at the promos for my tut there isn't a single kid image there either - and I think I know why.

If you take a look at the characters that have been produced for V4, they are overwhelmingly intended to be of a certain type of "attractive female". Not all, but the vast majority. If you take a look at the characters made for M4 they are generally various types of "Hunk" character. Genesis is intended to be one level below V5 or M4 and The Troll and so on and so forth, and is supposed to be more flexible and more variable V4 and M4 combined... and to a large extent, it achieves that goal. But it seems to me that content creators, for the most part, have gotten kinda carried away with the extreme flexibility and so are producing MOSTLY really rather extreme characters - the gorilla, troll, anubis, lycan - so on and so forth. Mr Hyde, my favourite of the bunch. We're not, yet, getting the huge variety of "cute" guys n gals that we saw for the previous generation.

No doubt the "GenX" products - that allow one to transfer old Gen4 and Gen3 characters to Genesis - accounts for that in part, because DS4/Genesis users can transfer their bee-kissed-lip-beauties themselves (a major selling point of Genesis being that it's possible to leverage our existing runtimes - if you buy the relevant add-ons!) but it still leaves an overwhelming impression (in my mind) of Genesis as being "The Creature Feature". Which isn't, I'm sure, what DAZ had planned for the platform! So I think the relative success of the extreme adaptability of Genesis has kind of run away with the "human figure" sales pitch that DAZ were aiming for, and we're not really seeing the more subtle but probably more useful side of Genesis really being pushed while people are still going "Yay! We can make a human girraffe!". Content creators - we're a funny bunch. Give us an inch and we'll make an inchworm out of it ;)

Plus, of course, kids are short - they're under my eyeline and "out of sight, out of mind" ;)

Cheers,

Cliff

Quote - I just grabbed it Cliff; I found a $10 store credit in my DAZ account for some unknown reason which I put to good use.  However, I'm going to be super busy for the next month or so, starting by getting ready for a White Mountain trek, including Mt. Washington, later this week...

That's the spirit! Mt. Washington? I've just looked up and read "famous for dangerously erratic weather", which DEFINATELY sounds...hmmm... well, for anyone else planning to do extreme things my advice would be this:- buy the tutorial FIRST. That way, if anything should go awry (and I sincerely hope it does NOT) I will at least still get your money.

Take care - I assume you'll be taking a digital camera along with you? You should be able to get some smashing backdrops for renders, I'd have thought!

Cheers,

Cliff

The "no Kids" may be prudence by Daz. They were always reluctant to do something for the kids (the virtual kids). Probably they are afraid of misuse in renders.

Could be - and the content creators too of course, none of us really want to see anything... unpleasant.

We only recently got confirmation of the school that my boy will be going to next year, and one of the rules they have now is that we aren't allowed to take any photos - not of plays they might put on, not during the annual sports day contests, nothing. Because PARENTS were found, hundreds of miles away, to be distributing photographs taken on school premises for "dubious purposes" (I don't know where the letter is right now to get more accurate phrasing). Sigh. Sometimes I really feel that humanity is sinking a bit low and I could do with a lifeboat, you know?

Paypal seem to be quite jumpy on such topics, so it's probably a good business decision to avoid anything that might smack of an unhealthy attitude - but I can't help but despair that if we avoid anything that could, at a stretch, possibly be abused by SOMEONE... we'll all end up as lockins in tiny little rooms drawing on padded walls with edible crayons :(

Umm... can't think of a plug for the tut except to mention it in saying that I can't think of a plug for it. Do you htink that would do?

Cheers,

Cliff

Maybe humanity is just getting a bit more alert to things like that. They were not talked about in earlier times. Maybe things are getting better? little ray of hope

Hmmm - edible crayons are sounding yummy. Do the different colours taste differently?

LOL

I just found all of the pennies I needed (don't ask where please) and bought your tutorial. Now I have to wait for the weekend to try that.

Patience is a virtue. They say.

Patience is a virtue. They say.

I always go with:-

Never put off till tomorrow, if you can do it today!!

The reason????

If you like it, you can do it twice as much tomorrow!!!! Lol.

All the best.

LROG

Quote - That's the spirit! Mt. Washington? I've just looked up and read "famous for dangerously erratic weather", which DEFINATELY sounds...hmmm... well, for anyone else planning to do extreme things my advice would be this:- buy the tutorial FIRST. That way, if anything should go awry (and I sincerely hope it does NOT) I will at least still get your money. Take care - I assume you'll be taking a digital camera along with you? You should be able to get some smashing backdrops for renders, I'd have thought!

I'm leading a group of Boy Scouts, so I can't take too many risks, (I'm more afraid of their Mothers than the mountains!) although they are experienced, having hiked 50-60 miles over the last month and slept out in survival shelters they built over the winter.  There is a road to the top of Washington, so some folks take climbing it too lightly; the weather observatory at the top is literally chained to the living rock for a reason...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKa9V_0ufxY

That would make for an interesting dynamic cloth simulation :biggrin:

Quote - Patience is a virtue. They say.

I always go with:-

Never put off till tomorrow, if you can do it today!!

The reason????

If you like it, you can do it twice as much tomorrow!!!! Lol.

All the best.

LROG

Well, you can do that if you are single and have no others to take care of. ;)

Humans still have a higher priority for me than computers/rendering/hobbies. :D

I'd like any teacher, principle or otherwise tell me that I can't take a picture of my child in any function...heh. I get very nasty about that sort of thing ;). Those are memories that one can never get back.

Anyway...lol. I'd like to see the kid renders too. The things I liked about the Gen 3s were the kids - Daz seemed to think we'd want them then, whereas the Gen 4 kids seemed rather like an afterthought. I'm not like most ppl...I don't wanna render only hunks and beauties.

Laurie

Quote - Maybe humanity is just getting a bit more alert to things like that. They were not talked about in earlier times. Maybe things are getting better? little ray of hope

It sometimes feels as if things are getting worse, but that's because of the nature of our media. News is mostly the bad stuff (with sometimes a fluffy nice story at the end to cheer us up) but news reportage can now reach around the world four times an hour - so we hear about things from much, MUCH further away than we used to. We're kinda bombarded with badness, which those of us old enough to remember a time before mobile phones and digital cameras quite rightly don't recall from when we were kids. Back then things that happened more than 50 miles away were remote, "foreign news" whereas now something the other side of the planet can be thrust in front of us in glorious technicolor even before the event has finished.

Quote - Hmmm - edible crayons are sounding yummy. Do the different colours taste differently?

I'm hoping red is strawberry :D

Quote - I just found all of the pennies I needed (don't ask where please) and bought your tutorial.

See, now, I'm going to be struggling all day to avoid asking where you found it. If x-rays and surgery on a family pet were required then I REALLY don't want to know

Quote - Never put off till tomorrow, if you can do it today!! The reason???? If you like it, you can do it twice as much tomorrow!!!! Lol.

Also, if you don't like it then you have the next day without it to look forward to!

I have grown fond of saying "it's betetr to have patients than to be one". I don't know if that's because of the clients I have in medical fields influencing me, but the phrase just appeared unbidden one day and has stuck with me.

Quote - I'm leading a group of Boy Scouts, so I can't take too many risks, (I'm more afraid of their Mothers than the mountains!) although they are experienced, having hiked 50-60 miles over the last month and slept out in survival shelters they built over the winter.  There is a road to the top of Washington, so some folks take climbing it too lightly; the weather observatory at the top is literally chained to the living rock for a reason...

It's good that they're experienced - the one and only time I went up a mountain (a tiddler called "Mt snowden") I was with a school part. Must have been around 11, possibly 12 years old. We walked up the thing on the same day that kids from the next school up took the lazy way and took a special train up. How's that for cheating? a train ride up a mountain - almost not worth doing. Except for the view, which was glorious.

Parents are scary. I know, I am one and I've seen that look in the eye of teachers when they're worried that I'm not happy. the blood drains from their faces and their eyes widen a bit. Sometimes take a small step back. It's fun holding out as long as possible before letting them know whether I'm annoyed or not. Part of the fun of being in a different relationship to the educational system than I used to be ;)

Cheers,

Cliff

Quote - > Quote - Hmmm - edible crayons are sounding yummy. Do the different colours taste differently?

I'm hoping red is strawberry :D

May I go with cherry? Just a different kind of red, so we both get what we like?

Quote - > Quote - I just found all of the pennies I needed (don't ask where please) and bought your tutorial.

See, now, I'm going to be struggling all day to avoid asking where you found it. If x-rays and surgery on a family pet were required then I REALLY don't want to know

:blink: you do have interesting ideas. :laugh:

Quote - I have grown fond of saying "it's better to have patients than to be one".

OK - that one is nice. :biggrin:

How about some more renders folks!!!!

All the best.

LROG

I don't know if this will help anyone, but I just posted a tutorial on how to change the default Studio interface to one that is easier to deal with. I'm only mentioning it here because you still have to use Studio to prepare Genesis for Poser use, and having a better interface might make that part a little less unpleasant.  :)

http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/art/Customizing-DAZ-Studio-Interface-Tutorial-1-309379885

If it's not appropriate for this forum though, I'll gladly remove this post. Thanks.

Most appropriate! Thanks SS!

Yeah SS...that'll help ;).

Laurie

Quote - The "no Kids" may be prudence by Daz. They were always reluctant to do something for the kids (the virtual kids). Probably they are afraid of misuse in renders.

Auto fit some of V4's slut ware to Genesis, dial up the basic kid morph, and then ask yourself if DAZ really care about what sicko's do to the kids in the 3D world.

It get's even more stomach turning if you add the genitals to the mix.

Could we keep it on topic here. This has nothing to do with genesis in poser

Like your mother always said...if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.

Laurie

Hmmm I read about one of those no school play photos things years ago. I thought it was a bizarre one off thing. I'm with Laurie. The district would have a lawsuit on their hands.

I don't think its necessarily prudence on DAZ part. The children have just never been very popular. That was true for the Poser boy and girl pre-DAZ as well. Who knows, having them in the 'mix' with Genesis might actually make them more popular for making Hobbits etc.

If Genesis is exported to Poser, does he have IK?

Quote - > Quote - The "no Kids" may be prudence by Daz. They were always reluctant to do something for the kids (the virtual kids). Probably they are afraid of misuse in renders.

Auto fit some of V4's slut ware to Genesis, dial up the basic kid morph, and then ask yourself if DAZ really care about what sicko's do to the kids in the 3D world.

It get's even more stomach turning if you add the genitals to the mix.

You can't do the last one. Believe me - Daz made sure you can't use the genitals with the basic child. I read a complaint by somebody wanting to do dwarfs.

Quote - If Genesis is exported to Poser, does he have IK?

I feel I have a disproportionate number of words in this thread, which embarrases me slightly. I know I've failed to stay "on message" (buy the tut! buy the tut! It's lovely, buy the tut!") because frankly I'm not very good at that kind of thing. So, if I may, I'll just quote someone else (wimvdb) from earlier in the thread in response to your query :)

Quote - It is a tutorial to use the existing one and a description of the additional steps which need to be taken to make it a good figure in Poser - such as adding IK and correcting the shaders. It then adds 2 scripts to adjust the joints in clothing for scaled figures - such as V5, M5, Child, Freak, etc.

Cheers,

Cliff

Quote - I don't think its necessarily prudence on DAZ part. The children have just never been very popular. That was true for the Poser boy and girl pre-DAZ as well. Who knows, having them in the 'mix' with Genesis might actually make them more popular for making Hobbits etc.

All true - though the prudence could just be DAZ avoiding spending money (time) that they won't recoup, if previous generations of kids are indicative of future sales.

And there, I think, you may have put your finger on something. I don't have the sales stats - I haven't made any clothing for a store for a start! - but I definately get the feeling that Genesis' cross-dressing tendencies have made an impact on how well "male stuff" does. Male clothing transfers better to the ladies than the other way around, for the main part, so having male clothing work well and comparatively easily on the females seems like it making male clothing would be less of a risk than is was for previous generations. The same - within limits - should hold true for kids. There's nothing to stop us using some "hip" top and pants designed for teens on an ageing 50-year-old with severe hair loss and a frank misunderstanding of what it takes to look "cool" :D

I'd certainly be interested to see what kind of child imagery the community could come up with.

Cheers,

Cliff

Quote - You can't do the last one. Believe me - Daz made sure you can't use the genitals with the basic child. I read a complaint by somebody wanting to do dwarfs.

True, but it took me all of 30 seconds with a text editor to remove the "lock" for a friend, she wasn't happy about not being able to use the male genitals on her own male character, which just happened to use a little of the kid morph.

While it does require you to know what your doing in the files it's not exactly rocket science, and if someone like me can figure it out then anyone can.

basically you can do what ever you want to your poser people.  You can twist their heads off even, and I don't think it is up to DAZ to make some lock so their heads can't be twisted off.  That sort of lock couldn't even be done.  It's up to the user to do what they want with their models.  

Anyway, it is good that genesis can be used in poser, even to the limited extent of a low poly model that doesn't bend as well as it does in daz and you have to to jump through a few hoops to get it in and textured and clothed.

 Love esther

There you can set the limits for Min limit and Max limit for any dial, and you can set "Force Limits".
And you can change the sensitivity of the dials if you want to.

Also :

In the upper menu you can select Figure
=> Use Limits

But, you will have to set them first in the parameter dial settings... if they are not set already, or, if you want to change them.

Happy Posering,
Tony

i still don't understand why they don't export the cr2 for us and sell it in their store? 

Quote - i still don't understand why they don't export the cr2 for us and sell it in their store? 

For each character - be it a DazOriginal or a Published Artists work? And how about free Genesis morphs?

And they don't know which combination of characters you bought, they could only sell one cr2 for each character - so you couldn't mix the characters.

With exporting it yourself you get a cr2 with all the morphs you installed.

It would get even more complicated if you wanted clothes or hair for your Genesis .CR2s - as the relevant morphs for the characters you own need to be in the clothing too. A nightmare to support.

What they need to do IMO is either go back to something like V4 used to inject new characters into a weight-mapped base figure and all the clothing (content-driven solution) or for Smith Micro to add some of the features that Content Creators have relied upon in producing the hair and clothing for Genesis (software-driven solution).

Since they haven't done that (yet?) the best we can do is if we want a Genesis-type figure but for Poser is to export one that is tailored to our own individual content library - and that's what the exporter is about.

Quote - > Quote - i still don't understand why they don't export the cr2 for us and sell it in their store? 

For each character - be it a DazOriginal or a Published Artists work? And how about free Genesis morphs?

And they don't know which combination of characters you bought, they could only sell one cr2 for each character - so you couldn't mix the characters.

They are all morphs of one mesh.

I think the reason is that Poser didn't expose the ERCs to Python until SR2, so it was difficult to add morphs with different joint centers and have then properly animate until now. (Although Colorcurvature managed it in PML)...

If I get Genesis to have IK and save a pose in poser. Can the pose be used back to the original Genesis in DAZ 4? I mean, the pose will be perfectly similar to how it looked like in Poser?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - i still don't understand why they don't export the cr2 for us and sell it in their store? 

For each character - be it a DazOriginal or a Published Artists work? And how about free Genesis morphs?

And they don't know which combination of characters you bought, they could only sell one cr2 for each character - so you couldn't mix the characters.

They are all morphs of one mesh.

I think the reason is that Poser didn't expose the ERCs to Python until SR2, so it was difficult to add morphs with different joint centers and have then properly animate until now. (Although Colorcurvature managed it in PML)...

well, if they made separate cr2s for M5, V5, i dunno.  i'm just so hungry for a new handsome male figure.  :)

Quote - ...i'm just so hungry for a new handsome male figure.  :)

Oh ye of little faith...

;)

Laurie

Quote - If I get Genesis to have IK and save a pose in poser. Can the pose be used back to the original Genesis in DAZ 4? I mean, the pose will be perfectly similar to how it looked like in Poser?

Turn IK off in Poser before you save the pose and it definately should. Otherwise - I suspect so but haven't tried it.

Cheers,

Cliff

Part of the reason they don't do the CR2 (I am guessing) is the injection channels and EXP from previous generations were a limitation and there isn't a decent replacement for them. Which is what you would need for the CR2 to work.

I'm gonna have to bookmark this thread. LOL

If I dont' try it for awhile I'll turn around and forget all of it. ;)

I think I'll install DS4 and have a go (and buy the plugin scripts of course)....

Laurie

There are still some problems which are difficult to solve. Some skirts (I only have 1, so can't confirm others) are exported with a separate hip, left and right thigh while the original has only hip. The problem which occurs now is that bending the thighs deforms the mesh at the border where thigh and hip meet. Since the original skirt does not have a thigh, there are no weightmaps to adjust. I think this is a problem of the exporter, but maybe Cliff can solve those issues in the script.

The other problem is that morphs are sometimes not exported in the clothing, so there is little which you can do to adjust bending issues. This is not always the case and seems to be pretty arbitrary.

I wanted to show some child type renders, but unfortunately I have no suitable clothing which works with the child morph. Getting them from DAZ is no option for me until these type of issues have been solved in the exporter.

I still have to wait till weekend ...

Wimvdb: there is a lot of free Genesis clothes by Wilmap:

http://www.sharecg.com/pf/full_uploads.php?pf_user_name=wilmap

Many are suited for children.

I followed your suggestion and downloaded a few items. But no luck.

Anything like a skirt has severe problems.

With the kids morph, the skirt starts to distort where the hip and the thigh bodypart meet, they each rotate independently.

For all genesis meshes moving the skirt with one leg stretches the clothing mesh in an unacceptable way - it looks like the weightmaps are limited to a single bodypart here

It looks like the conversion of a skirt needs some updating in the exporter

I'm not that happy with Genesis using the child shape. It's OK naked, but... OK, here's a quick render before using my script: