To each his/her own, but I do not like a separate brow mesh.

And for Mat zones? As few as possible.

I can create new mat zones inside Poser if I need them, but it is impossible to delete Mat zones from inside Poser.

i've come across only a couple of character sets that made use of the eyebrow geometry thing on V4/M4.

thanks for peeking in    feed back from character creators is a big help on this topic.

i don't think there is a current way of injecting a mat zone, so starting with too many seems the way to go at this point.

hi Vilters, the D3D CR2 editor includes utility for deleting unused materials

Quote -
What would Non-DAZ figure need to become poserdom mainstream?

Couple o' things... but let's tackle your questions first:

Quote - Come with Poser?

Yes. Not because of any kind of imprimatur, but because of distribution. Posette ('member her?) was the most supported character pre-Vicky because of this, and lasted a long time - not fading out until Vicky 3 showed up.

Quote - Be heavily promotoed by SM?

They should promote the figure - at least as hard as they promote the software.

The other things they need to do/have?

The figure has to be more than merely a placeholder...

• It has to be highly flexible in both limb and morphability - the latter being highly important. The reason existing default Poser figures fail is because you cannot get rid of the current look without the results looking amateurish at best, and like botched plastic surgery at worst. The mesh will have to be built so that morphing doesn't introduce too many bad artifacts such as breakage, folding, or 'chunking' (where you end up with sharp angles on curves that only SubD can fix). 

• It should have a solid texture map, but it should have a fairly easy means for users to re-texture it.

• It has to come with a large set of basic clothing - not just the perfunctory stuff, but a variety. That clothing should come mapped so that it can be re-textured w/o having to buy a pricey app to do it. 

• If it's going to have naughty bits, make them accurate. Otherwise don't bother. 

• It cannot be too complex to operate, with a bajillion bones/joints. OTOH, something with an actual spine/trunk that bends smoothly (I'd almost say 'easy-pose' like) as opposed to bending in chunks would be a huge benefit. The human spine has dozens of of little bendy spots in it - not three.

Personally, I'd be all in favor of casting aside the current joint system, and bone/rig the thing like the big apps do.

The one place where I might see eyebrow geometry as useful is in providing different color brows for a texture set. However, I'm not sure it has any real advantage over the artist making various versions of the face mat. For me, eyebrow mapping is in the "whatever is easier for the creator" basket.

Quote -
Does Daz allow non-Daz human figures?

Yes. I keep and use (in DS3 and occasionally 4) Terai Yuki, Kururu (which with SubD is very useful in renders), and a huge pile of non-DAZ human figures stretching back over 12 years or so.

Different colors -- or different shapes, which is also very helpful. :)

I've done a lot of charsets with the brow body part, though now it's hit or miss. (If I think it adds something and the result is better quality, I will, if not, I don't.) Even being one of the people who has often included it, I managed to get reamed up one side and down the other when I didn't include browless versions of all the (40-odd) head textures. laugh So that brow thing... yeah.

With the many map versions option, you end up getting reamed twice as hard for file size and 'wasting all our hard drive space'. ;)

It's also something that can be done via blender node, but that requires more technical know-how to allow for the potential versatility it offers than many customers have (or are willing to fuss with if they want a click-and-render solution, which most seem to want).

Quote - Payment or not, the advantage of a team is that whatever one cannot do, others can.

Depends on the team. The more skills you need, the more likely that money will be involved. It all boils down to getting what you paid for.

Don't get me wrong: It is an excellent thing to have amateurs coordinate to build something. The existence of Linux is a great example of this. However, the one thing I see missing with most Poser-figure projects of this nature is the challenge. I don't mean the challenge of building something that works, but the challenging of each other.

Let me illustrate what I mean:

In Linux, if you put in new functionality that isn't the absolute best and most efficient for the job? You either have to defend it successfully, or watch your submission get rejected. You have to explain all method deficiencies to satisfaction, and explain why you did something a certain way to anyone who asks. Oftentimes you end up revising your code a dozen times before it gets accepted. If you're improving on something that already exists, your job is 3x as hard, because you have to justify the changes, and balance them against the environment.  

As a result, the Linux kernel (and countless supporting bits) provides a quality and strength that is unmatched in the tech world. 

Now, from what I've (sadly) seen in Poser so far? All too many people put in 'good enough' into a project that has a ton of potential. Add-ons are introduced and trumpeted that contain numerous errors and deficiencies, and the result only detracts from the product itself. I'm not going to name names (people tend to get all upset when I do that) but suffice it to say that nearly every community project in Poserdom has suffered this problem, and it ends up slowly killing the project.

To sum it up? If you want to make something that betters an existing professional job, then you'd better be damned well prepared to do a professional job of it yourself. You must put out your absolute best, and if members of the team cannot do that, then the public side of the project would be better off without them.

BH spaketh unto the throng:

Quote -   despite the fact that for the last 10+ years people in this forum have been assuring content creators that they should make 'Chubby Homemaker with unshaven legs/pits, wild 70's bush, sack dress and morphing rolling pin prop', sales wouldnt even cover the time spent making promos. welcome to reality.

sniff... I love you, man. :)

Knowing a bit about the reasons behind the original post since I work with Connie -- though I can't elaborate beyond 'looking at what might take off figure-wise to support for content creation collaborations' -- I know it's not for a community figure project. :) At this time, we're attempting to look at additional figures to support that work natively in Poser, and trying to determine what may prove profitable enough to support considering the time investment the team working on this stuff puts in to any given product.

Community input, great! Absolutely neccessary! Community figure project cattle call? ...no, not in this instance, and no slight is intended toward projects that are in any fashion. :)

I think there have been some figures as good or better than daz figures, Apollo was one of them, the only thing made daz figures more attractive was that many artist made clothes and other things for them and not for the others.

I think now is a mixture between I said before and just some people use the previous version and they are happy, because those figure are not bat at all, use the next version too.

Quote - Knowing a bit about the reasons behind the original post since I work with Connie -- though I can't elaborate beyond 'looking at what might take off figure-wise to support for content creation collaborations' -- I know it's not for a community figure project. :) At this time, we're attempting to look at additional figures to support that work natively in Poser, and trying to determine what may prove profitable enough to support considering the time investment the team working on this stuff puts in to any given product.

Community input, great! Absolutely neccessary! Community figure project cattle call? ...no, not in this instance, and no slight is intended toward projects that are in any fashion. :)

In that case... may I put in a vote for support for GNDA2-Anastasia?

That's already in the works. :)

There was a notable attempt to avoid a 'call out names' style post, which is I think where things went a bit sideways. We have a pretty good idea of where to go from here. :)

Quote - Now, from what I've (sadly) seen in Poser so far? All too many people put in 'good enough' into a project that has a ton of potential. Add-ons are introduced and trumpeted that contain numerous errors and deficiencies, and the result only detracts from the product itself. I'm not going to name names (people tend to get all upset when I do that) but suffice it to say that nearly every community project in Poserdom has suffered this problem, and it ends up slowly killing the project.

I agree. One problem seems to be that community projects often produce free items and sometimes that generosity becomes a shield.  A freebie is considered beyond reproach and not subject to the same level of scrutiny as a fully commercial version. 

I think it's lovely and generous that people create products for free.  But, me, I'd rather pay $150 for a very good figure than nothing for one that I can't use in half my renders without learning how to fix jcms, etc.  Others obviously feel differently...

Quote - That's already in the works. :)

There was a notable attempt to avoid a 'call out names' style post, which is I think where things went a bit sideways. We have a pretty good idea of where to go from here. :)

Was that a reply to me?

In that case please excuse me while I go off to dance my happy-dance! :thumbupboth:

This may be a bit of a diversion, but since I think the thread has become something potentially very useful for the figure projects currently in progress out there...

...how do you use figures in your renders? Are they mostly full-body images? Crowd scenes? Nudes? Face shot portraits? Some figures or features are better suited to some uses than others, for instance.

Edit: yup, I know I have some GNDA stuff in the works, and am working with a few others on things as well. There's some mention of it in Lyrra's thread. :)

Quote -
In that case... may I put in a vote for support for GNDA2-Anastasia?

I love her body.  But I'm not sure whether her face (I guess I really mean Alysson's face) is really flexible enough.  Judging from the few character packs I've seen, she's got a very limited degree of morphability.  Could someone show me that it's possible to make a convincing Kirsten Dunst out of her, for instance?  Because as an end user, without skill in other apps, I can't do very much with Alysson (or, by extension, Anastasia) beyond very basic changes (small nose vs big nose) or very slight changes (more Asian vs a bit less Asian). 

Is there something I'm missing?  I've tried the face room and her built in morphs, but again, they are both, even in combination, very very limited. I can change the size of her nose, for example, but I can't change the shape of it.  I can move the eyes all over her head, but the shape is always fundamentally the same except for very slight changes. Really noticeable changes. such as the difference between Asian eyes and deep set European eyes, as an example, seem to rip the mesh to shreds.

I mean, I realize that if I had consummate modelling skill I could probably get something to work, but I don't have it, and I need to spend my time making renders. So I wonder whether this is a flaw with Alysson's geometry, or just a lack of add-on morphs (ETA:), or rather add-on morphs that are more friendly to the end user?

so there is a little bit of a point there, but there are a few flipsides to it as well.  There are too many people who equate free with garbage regardless of quality.  I think the bias also goes the other way, where if the exact same product that has been released for free as a generous community project was to have been launched 'for profit' that some of the people who shun 'amateur community freebie crap' would give it serious consideration.  I have watched a parade of absolute garbage released for sale for v4 and nobody seems to mind, people seem happy to pick it up.  

As for the 'scrutiny sheild' its true to a certain degree but really, its more in the expected courtesey factor than the scrutiny being off limits.  When something is for sale there is a lot more tolerance for customer to be dicks about the product.  That has nothing to do with scrutiny or quality, that is all about customer entitlement to be an ass because they forked over, or are being asked to fork over, a little cash.  With a free product there is a certain generosity involved that causes some folk to self censor their feedback/critique.  However we are a community of artists and thoughtful constructive feedback/critique generally accepted well.  Certain members sometimes come to these discussions with nothing to contribute but negativity and thats when the 'freebie sheild' really kicks in.  

Its not so much that a freebie should be beyond reproach, its just less tolerable to be an ass about it.  To my mind there shouldn't be tolerance for people to be asses on the paid side either, but thats the lumps you take by being in business unfortunately.

Quote - > Quote - Now, from what I've (sadly) seen in Poser so far? All too many people put in 'good enough' into a project that has a ton of potential. Add-ons are introduced and trumpeted that contain numerous errors and deficiencies, and the result only detracts from the product itself. I'm not going to name names (people tend to get all upset when I do that) but suffice it to say that nearly every community project in Poserdom has suffered this problem, and it ends up slowly killing the project.

I agree. One problem seems to be that community projects often produce free items and sometimes that generosity becomes a shield.  A freebie is considered beyond reproach and not subject to the same level of scrutiny as a fully commercial version. 

I think it's lovely and generous that people create products for free.  But, me, I'd rather pay $150 for a very good figure than nothing for one that I can't use in half my renders without learning how to fix jcms, etc.  Others obviously feel differently...

Well, meatSim, I've observed that "being an ass" sometimes means pointing out that something isn't perfect and could use a fix. 

It's no different from critiquing renders or photographs.  Sometimes people point out that an image that the creator is asking to be critiqued is a bit overexposed or might be better with gamma correction and the reply is " stop bashing my art" and "stop bullying me".  Who's the ass there?

I'm not sure everyone can tell the difference between "the shoulder blades seem a bit too high" and "your figure completely sucks and I'll never use it."

So I've concluded that if something is free and doesn't meet my needs, I just won't use it, and will ignore calls for feedback.  If it's paid for, then I may or may not offer feedback because I believe that if you cannot accept at least some criticism of your work, you have no business selling it.

I am very anxious to see a new figure for Poser that has the same morph capability as v4/m4, but at the same time unless there is support like there were for those characters it would be hard to get much use out of them. For instance I do have GND4A and as a character she is terrific. But without a usable morphing system and more skin mats to make her more versatile, she would not be a mainstream bread and butter character. I do know that the M4 v4 have thier issues but I have a ton of content for them and quite frankly I have not seen a new character, the new Daz system included, that is better. That being said, I am watching for a good Poser figure that gets the same kind of support as the Daz characters. What I see faulty in Alyson is her default face is so elongated that if you try to work it the mesh stretches and pulls. I think that if there were a way to fix the morphing capabilities of her face in particular, we would have a great figure there. Anastasia is a great start, but it is only one character. We need the ability to really morph the face ourselves the way we can do V4. Maybe one possible the answer is a system like the morph++ for Alyson, if that is possible. 

Isn't anastasia's face also a bit elongated?

If or when I get involved in making any kind of a new figure, it will be top notch, very professional level effort, working with several well known Poserdom 'heavy hitters' (I'm sorry, I'm not at liberty to get into specifics) 

To put it in simple terms, if it goes forward it will be 'go big or go home' kind of a thng, with business backing the minimum of size of SM or DAZ, or another company of similar size and influence.

With this particular thread, since I have been busy with some other projects in last few months, I wanted to sort of 'check the pulse' of the forums, with respect to whther there is a mainstream figure emerging yet, or not.   It doesn't appear that anythng earthshaking has happened since February or March when I last looked at things very closely.

It does seem that not much of import has happened on the figure front recently, though I get the feeling that a lot is in the works and I am quite curious as to what will emerge next and when we will get to see it.

A great deal of my renders are close up, head and shoulder type with the idea of trying to express some real emotion.  I would like the face to be flexible enough to make the character to be different from all the others in the Poser world.

I am not so interested in one click solutions personally, although I can see that would be of benefit for some.  On the other hand I do not have the skills to build my own character and, at my time of life, the time to learn them (well not without abandoning some many other things).  I use V4WM but with morphs from about six different characters and materials from about the same.  The eyes and lips are from different sources and I have also played in Paint Shop to add freckles and tattoos to the base template.  After all of this she does look different but her V4 origins are also very clear.

For me to be interested in a new figure I would need to see the a good deal of flexibilty in the face both for character creation and adding expressions.  I would like the option of having eyes without baked in reflections and a range of makeups.   Of course I would like vendor support and a range of clothes but without increased felxibilty in the face I cannot see me moving away from V4.

I have two thoughts.

1.  It needs to be something anyone can use.  If you have a  dragon figure that everyone would want at the price they want, it'll be mainstream.

2.  Why does it need to be mainstream?  If you do it as a labor of love or something that you want and you manage a little money back from it, that should be a good thing.  I haven't modeled in almost a year, but when I was, I was making things I wanted or needed first and foremost.  I think that should be goal one.

If you try to make mainstream for the point of being mainstream, you'll probably fail in some respect because your initial focus is wrong. 

Quote - This may be a bit of a diversion, but since I think the thread has become something potentially very useful for the figure projects currently in progress out there...

...how do you use figures in your renders? Are they mostly full-body images? Crowd scenes? Nudes? Face shot portraits? Some figures or features are better suited to some uses than others, for instance.

Edit: yup, I know I have some GNDA stuff in the works, and am working with a few others on things as well. There's some mention of it in Lyrra's thread. :)

Mostly full body images, can be single figures or a few figures in a scene. Occasionally nudes, but usually with fantasy/scifi/historic clothing.

Close-up portraits sometimes, but it's difficult to get a texture that'll stand up to a large portrait render unfortunately.

For good close ups, textures should be 8192x8192.
Unfortunately, they do not exist.
=> make your own, , , , or =>

I have had some good results with scaling some existing quality textures to this size and then sharpening them quite a bit.

And using a procedural displacement using granite or turbulence or a combination of both. (no Bump, as bump is fake)

I think the OP was more in the tune of 'picking the right horse' to bet on becoming mainstream and creating content for it, rather than probing for thoughts on what to put into an upcoming figure.. though I dont want to put words in anyones mouth.

For my 2 cents... content is as big a factor as anything in making a figure 'mainstream'

BH gave alyson a huge boost just by releasing anastasia, granted the rest of the content is still lacking but without anastasia very few people would even want more content for Alyson 2.  If another vendor with a significant following (say alfa seed/Aery Soul .. just for example) were to commit to support that figure it would quickly start to become at least one of the mainstream figures.  

The unfortunate reality is that it matters significantly less what quality is in the figure than it matters what quantity and quality of slutwear* that is available for her

*no offense to anyone, some of the slutwear on the market is very artfully and skillfully crafted

Quote - I have two thoughts.

1.  It needs to be something anyone can use.  If you have a  dragon figure that everyone would want at the price they want, it'll be mainstream.

2.  Why does it need to be mainstream?  If you do it as a labor of love or something that you want and you manage a little money back from it, that should be a good thing.  I haven't modeled in almost a year, but when I was, I was making things I wanted or needed first and foremost.  I think that should be goal one.

If you try to make mainstream for the point of being mainstream, you'll probably fail in some respect because your initial focus is wrong. 

Quote - Isn't anastasia's face also a bit elongated?

Yeah. I have tried to widen Alysson/Anastasia's face and to give her a rounder chin. But alas I lack the skill.