With a higher resolution (highres, level 0) all these smooth out and you don't have these edges.

Here is an example what happens if you combine morphs (ok, a bit extreem here thin and emanciated - but it shows what I mean)

For those who are interested in sub-d, Pixar has just released an interesting video on their sub-d technology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-3L9BOTEtw&list=PL8D8513731CDD8307&index=7&feature=plpp_video

It would be cool to see that implemented in both poser and d/s.

If its good enough for pixar...well maybe there is something good in sub-d afterall LOL

Rawn

A bit (!) OT I know, but I just took a look at the new S5 and to me that is a seriously ugly figure! Not that I've never liked any of the Stephanie shapes (except for Blackhearted's S3 Irina version).

Smoothing in Poser is not CC Sub-d, or any sub-d at all, it's somewhat analogous to phong shading, which is a render time smoothing and does nothing to adjust/add verticies to the control cage/mesh. Poser can't do any sort of "fixing" of the control-cage/mesh, as it doesn't know how. DS is simply exporting the control cage/mesh, not a sub-d version of the mesh.

As stated many times before, as Poser stands now, it simply can't handle the technology built into DS/Genesis. So if Genesis is truly coming to Poser, then either SM (and DAZ???) is adding the needed code/technology to Poser (CC Sub-d, collision detection, etc.), or DAZ is making a plugin (with the help of SM???) using the new plugin facilities in P9/2012 SR3 that will allow hosting of Genesis in Poser.

My guess is that it will be a hosting plugin, but SM might actually be adding many of the needed enhnacements to Poser. It might even be that SM is adding CC Sub-d and some of the other needed enhancements to the Poser code base, and DAZ is providing an import plugin, or any strange combination of the above possibilities. But, as S5 knees show very clearly, the mesh needs CC Sub-d either in real time, or on import, for Poser to be able to use Genesis as a mesh - but much more is needed to use all the features of Genesis.

OK - feel better now, will let the horse lie

Quote - Smoothing in Poser is not CC Sub-d, or any sub-d at all, it's somewhat analogous to phong shading, which is a render time smoothing and does nothing to adjust/add verticies to the control cage/mesh. Poser can't do any sort of "fixing" of the control-cage/mesh, as it doesn't know how. DS is simply exporting the control cage/mesh, not a sub-d version of the mesh.

As stated many times before, as Poser stands now, it simply can't handle the technology built into DS/Genesis. So if Genesis is truly coming to Poser, then either SM (and DAZ???) is adding the needed code/technology to Poser (CC Sub-d, collision detection, etc.), or DAZ is making a plugin (with the help of SM???) using the new plugin facilities in P9/2012 SR3 that will allow hosting of Genesis in Poser.

My guess is that it will be a hosting plugin, but SM might actually be adding many of the needed enhnacements to Poser. It might even be that SM is adding CC Sub-d and some of the other needed enhancements to the Poser code base, and DAZ is providing an import plugin, or any strange combination of the above possibilities. But, as S5 knees show very clearly, the mesh needs CC Sub-d either in real time, or on import, for Poser to be able to use Genesis as a mesh - but much more is needed to use all the features of Genesis.

OK - feel better now, will let the horse lie

As we discovered, the exporter is exporting the wrong mesh. The rest is just repeating what has already been said

The pink ring is the subdivision mesh (level 2). Technically it is a kind of spline surface representation which approximates a surface. The most important property is that for convex objects, it will always be inside the object. The original object (the cage as it was called) in this example is the green box. This is what DS exports when the artist wanted to have the pink object. The yellow thing is what poser makes out of the green object when smoothing is enabled. The smoothing poser uses is not a spline surface like subdivision (technically it uses pn-triangles), it interpolates, which means, for convex objects, like the green thing, the result will always be outside the object. When those two flaws are combined (export the green thing when you want the pink one, and then render with smoothing to get the yellow one), you will get considerable blow-up, resulting often in poke-through. A solution could be to generate the pink object when exporting and projecting the green object onto it to get a closer approximation. Could in principle be done in a script from within poser, because only vertices are moved around, if somebody wanted to try it (i do not).

Quote - The mesh DOES NOT pass through the points of the control cage. The control cage points are like magnets. They attract the mesh, but do not define where the mesh is. They defines points of influence on the mesh.

Ahhhh.

So if this SubD makes it into poser, what happens to the shadows? Will this have to be part of the solution?

I'm not going to get S5 until it works properly in poser.

Quote - It would be cool to see that implemented in both poser and d/s.

I am not so sure if the average pc would be able to keep up with this past a certain point of subdivision. Or if most people could afford the supporting hardware/software.

Quote: "OpenSubdiv is a set of open source libraries that implement high performance subdivision surface (subdiv) evaluation on massively parallel CPU and GPU architectures."

Note the "massively paralell" part on the opening statement. That would exclude a lot of the systems that Poser and DS are installed on.

Massivley paralell gpu cores would be 2000+ cuda cores, or 6000+ stream processors per motherboard/blade. Not cheap.....

Massivley paralell cpus is lots of Xeons in a blade setup. Again, not cheap...

It would be awesome if they added this to Poser and DS, but the price probably would not be very end user friendly right now. Note the right now part...

But you never know... It may happen sooner than later...

Many software companies are starting to put a lot of thier stuff into opensource again.

Opensource is the first step in getting it to everyone, and making the hardware to run it affordable.

People will support Opensource that works, and leave propritary stuff behind. Food for thought...

We ran subdivable meshes on 1998 PC that just had 64 RAM ,8 RAM 3D Cards.

All the apps except Poser has Sub Divable Meshes.Had them for years.

What Pixar was showing would be kool in all the App's.

What Pixar was showing zBrush can all ready do.

I like Pixar movies ,but never seen anything from Pixar that matched zBrush.

I want zBrush in D/S & Poser.

I know you all want Genesis in Poser
,and you all don't care about other app's ,technology ,programming ect ect.
But the technology is what makes the app's.

truespace did not keep up with technology ,now there dead.

Quote - > Quote - The mesh DOES NOT pass through the points of the control cage. The control cage points are like magnets. They attract the mesh, but do not define where the mesh is. They defines points of influence on the mesh.

Ahhhh.

So if this SubD makes it into poser, what happens to the shadows? Will this have to be part of the solution?

SubD is a prerender operation, so I don't think shadows would be a problem

Quote - truespace did not keep up with technology ,now there dead.

No, trueSpace got bought by microsoft - now they are dead

Quote - > Quote - truespace did not keep up with technology ,now there dead.

No, trueSpace got bought by microsoft - now they are dead

Yep...lol.

Laurie

You have to wonder if the timing of the hint dropped has any thing to do with the release of SR3, My Michelle, the pending new Miki and Tyler...a small shot across the bow so to speak to raise G character noise level back up after it became totally quite.

It's not like SR3 was under development for a day and released the next.  They claim they are cooperating with Coop and the team. So they had to know what was going on. So why weren't they prepared to spring it on us at the release of SR3? Sounds a little fishy to me.

To me it was a subtle hint if you have SR3 to come look at our toys again before you go down another path and get further and further away. Ala S5 released and basically 100 percent G character stuff released over the last several weeks in their store.

IMHO.

Quote - You have to wonder if the timing of the hint dropped has any thing to do with the release of SR3, My Michelle, the pending new Miki and Tyler...a small shot across the bow so to speak to raise G character noise level back up after it became totally quite. It's not like SR3 was under development for a day and released the next.  They claim they are cooperating with Coop and the team. So they had to know what was going on. So why weren't they prepared to spring it on us at the release of SR3? Sounds a little fishy to me.

To me it was a subtle hint if you have SR3 to come look at our toys again before you go down another path and get further and further away. Ala S5 released and basically 100 percent G character stuff released over the last several weeks in their store.

IMHO.

My thought, too, on the timing of a basically trouble-making comment.

On the other hand, the conversation about exporting SubD cages to Poser was interesting.

Modo does Catmull-Clark subdivision/Pixar subd, and it's very cool to play with. Modo also does the kind of subdivision that Poser uses. And it rigs and so forth. And costs a freaking mint compared to Poser. But I do get to see how nifty Pixare subD is! Well, maybe Poser will have subdivision options one day.

Meantime, I'm very pleased with the sudden Poser "spring" and all the new characters being made! I don't use all of them, but it's cool.

My only regret about not having Genny (Genesis) is the lack of beautiful clothing models by Luthbel. ;) whimper

Quote - My only regret about not having Genny (Genesis) is the lack of beautiful clothing models by Luthbel. ;) whimper

This. So much so this. :( 

Quote - You have to wonder if the timing of the hint dropped has any thing to do with the release of SR3, My Michelle, the pending new Miki and Tyler...a small shot across the bow so to speak to raise G character noise level back up after it became totally quite.

It's not like SR3 was under development for a day and released the next.  They claim they are cooperating with Coop and the team. So they had to know what was going on. So why weren't they prepared to spring it on us at the release of SR3? Sounds a little fishy to me.

To me it was a subtle hint if you have SR3 to come look at our toys again before you go down another path and get further and further away. Ala S5 released and basically 100 percent G character stuff released over the last several weeks in their store.

IMHO.

I don't wonder at all.

If they had been working closely with SM, DAZ knew how screwed they were when comparing DS3 to Poser 9/2012 - so in a panic, they released DS4 before it was ready.

They really thought that the Poser community would drop Poser for DS4 that had no documentation and many core features still in beta (well actually, they were in alpha). 

When that didn't happen, DAZ started telling Poser users "Demand that SM rewrite Poser to use our proprietary technology."  And that pathetic campaign ground to a halt after a few months.

Poser users slowed down on purchases at DAZ, and sales of DS4P weren't what they projected - As could be seen by the paucity of genesis products (300 genesis items from DS4 launch until March Madness at DAZ; at every other site had more support for Apollo Maximus than genesis) - which I believe drove the "game changing" announcement of giving DS4P away for 1 month, no 4 months.

This got DS4P into enough hands to start to build the DS4/Genesis ecosystem at the cost of ditching the entire DS4 revenue stream.  DS4P was priced at the same price as Poser 2012. And that revenue stream is never coming back.  When DAZ attempts to sell DS5, the user base knows that all they have to do is wait.

The DS4 ecosystem  is obviously not growing fast enough, based on the spur of the moment "sales" that keep popping up and the lack of genesis content at every other site.

The Gen4 content stream continued at it's pre-DS4 pace.

Then came Antonia.

Then came V4_WM.

Then came Anastasia.

Then came DAZ's attempt to commit suicide with their new site roll-out.

Then came the "Great Thread and Post Deletion" frenzy on the new site forums (that are just now starting to work properly).

Then came the multitude of "Goodbye DAZ" threads over at the DAZ forums. - And they are still going on.

Then came My Michelle.

In Sept, we'll get Miki 3, Tyler and probably weight mapped G2 figures as well.

In November, we get the Reality 3 plug-in for Lux-Render.

What do the DS4 users have?  No documentation.

I disagree about DAZ waving SP5 in our faces - very few people actually use SP3 or SP4 - which is a real shame, they are the only normal sized people in the DAZ universe.

Vendors over at the DAZ forums have stated that they are moving away from the genesis/Gen4 character combos because it isn't cost effective for them.  And that making genesis clothing takes less time than developing non-genesis clothing, so genesis clothing is more cost effective than making Gen4 content.

The Poser community has had a "A Year Without DAZ". 

And you know what?

"Our future is so bright, we have to wear shades."

I think DAZ needs us more than we need DAZ.  Hence the pathetic attempts by the moderators to stem the exodus caused by genesis. 

Quote - > Quote - My only regret about not having Genny (Genesis) is the lack of beautiful clothing models by Luthbel. ;) whimper

This. So much so this. :( 

Thirded... :(

Quote - > Quote - You have to wonder if the timing of the hint dropped has any thing to do with the release of SR3, My Michelle, the pending new Miki and Tyler...a small shot across the bow so to speak to raise G character noise level back up after it became totally quite.

It's not like SR3 was under development for a day and released the next.  They claim they are cooperating with Coop and the team. So they had to know what was going on. So why weren't they prepared to spring it on us at the release of SR3? Sounds a little fishy to me.

To me it was a subtle hint if you have SR3 to come look at our toys again before you go down another path and get further and further away. Ala S5 released and basically 100 percent G character stuff released over the last several weeks in their store.

IMHO.

I don't wonder at all.

If they had been working closely with SM, DAZ knew how screwed they were when comparing DS3 to Poser 9/2012 - so in a panic, they released DS4 before it was ready.

They really thought that the Poser community would drop Poser for DS4 that had no documentation and many core features still in beta (well actually, they were in alpha). 

When that didn't happen, DAZ started telling Poser users "Demand that SM rewrite Poser to use our proprietary technology."  And that pathetic campaign ground to a halt after a few months.

Poser users slowed down on purchases at DAZ, and sales of DS4P weren't what they projected - As could be seen by the paucity of genesis products (300 genesis items from DS4 launch until March Madness at DAZ; at every other site had more support for Apollo Maximus than genesis) - which I believe drove the "game changing" announcement of giving DS4P away for 1 month, no 4 months.

This got DS4P into enough hands to start to build the DS4/Genesis ecosystem at the cost of ditching the entire DS4 revenue stream.  DS4P was priced at the same price as Poser 2012. And that revenue stream is never coming back.  When DAZ attempts to sell DS5, the user base knows that all they have to do is wait.

The DS4 ecosystem  is obviously not growing fast enough, based on the spur of the moment "sales" that keep popping up and the lack of genesis content at every other site.

The Gen4 content stream continued at it's pre-DS4 pace.

Then came Antonia.

Then came V4_WM.

Then came Anastasia.

Then came DAZ's attempt to commit suicide with their new site roll-out.

Then came the "Great Thread and Post Deletion" frenzy on the new site forums (that are just now starting to work properly).

Then came the multitude of "Goodbye DAZ" threads over at the DAZ forums. - And they are still going on.

Then came My Michelle.

In Sept, we'll get Miki 3, Tyler and probably weight mapped G2 figures as well.

In November, we get the Reality 3 plug-in for Lux-Render.

 

What do the DS4 users have?  No documentation.

 

I disagree about DAZ waving SP5 in our faces - very few people actually use SP3 or SP4 - which is a real shame, they are the only normal sized people in the DAZ universe.

Vendors over at the DAZ forums have stated that they are moving away from the genesis/Gen4 character combos because it isn't cost effective for them.  And that making genesis clothing takes less time than developing non-genesis clothing, so genesis clothing is more cost effective than making Gen4 content.

 

The Poser community has had a "A Year Without DAZ". 

And you know what?

"Our future is so bright, we have to wear shades."

 

I think DAZ needs us more than we need DAZ.  Hence the pathetic attempts by the moderators to stem the exodus caused by genesis. 

 

 

And, I will add that I believe their "Customer Appreciation" days told them more than they wanted to hear..........by having separate days for each "generation."

Yeah, I bought ONE item for V3. :)

I believe we have discussed Daz's business model enough. Can we move back to making Genesis work in Poser or else move on? 

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2855291

Has promise :)

Laurie

Quote - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2855291

Has promise :)

Laurie

Wow!  That's amazing!

That's what makes this community so great - someone issues a challenge and several very smart Poser users step up to the plate!

Quote - > Quote - http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2855291

Has promise :)

Laurie

Wow!  That's amazing!

That's what makes this community so great - someone issues a challenge and several very smart Poser users step up to the plate!

 

Absolutely ;). And Snarly's been up the challenge again and again and again...lol.

Laurie

I really hope that there will be a Genesis 2 and a DS 5 in a short time, I can't imagine where Poser will go and us with it...

...in heaven!:biggrin: 

Wait a minute! :scared: ... so they already knew what was going on! :tongue2: :lol: 

From the discussion so far it appears to me, a simple hobbiest, that getting Genesis working in Poser seems to be quite a challange.  I hope that it does become possible for all of those that want to use it, my only concern is the way this is being presented.

I will admit, having spent so much of my working life in customer service, that I tend to aim for 'under promise, over deliver' in most of my dealings.  On this basis suggesting any product will put a user in any sort of 'Heaven' appears to be setting yourself up for a fall.  Most of the people who have responded to the thead appear to be more realistic in their expectations so my concern is for those who do not read such threads.  It could well be that there are big strides made to making Genesis work in Poser but those that had their expaectations raised to such heights will be disappointed with the progress made because they are not in the 'Poser Heaven' promised.  My heart hopes I am wrong but my head has a strong argument in favor of me being right.

Posers been boult n sold more times then I can count.
I swear Posers 3,4,5 manual read see forums.

cause a lot of what poser can do had nothing to do with the curent company that owned Poser.

It was the users making what thay needed.

With or without microsmith I'd bet Poser users will get Genesis in Poser one way or the other.

Posers development team has migrated with Poser since the early days.

...and has grown, with more talented people, thanks to SmithMicro has never been so full of life!

...and we with them. :biggrin: 

The Title of this Thread is "Full Genesis-Poser compatibility" this will not happen unless Smith Micro decides to put the DS4 program into Poser, because Genesis is a computer program and not a figure obj/CR2.

There are a ton of differences between the two programs that make that impossible.  The two programs do not use the same shading system, the same hair system etc.  If Genesis as a figure is brought into Poser it will only be a subset of what DS the program could do for that figure.  This will make it so venders will develop for those things that are common and we will be back to the days of developing for Poser 4 (or the Genesis equivalent).  So all the new features in both the programs will be wasted since most vendors will not develop for a niche market.  And how are all the users of both programs going to feel about not getting the full use of either program?

I would rather have a figure that works well in Poser using Poser Technology such as the upcoming Miki 4 and Tyler and use all the features of the latest version, than struggle with a figure not made for Poser and have to use a ton of fixes to make it appear correctly. 

There must be a reason why Poser users chose to spend money to buy Poser when they could get DS4 free. 

Now that is has been over a year since Genesis has come out I am glad to see both programs and their users start to get the most out of each program and would hate to see it go back to a system where we only get to use the most basic of functions each program has to offer.

Edit to add missing paragraph breaks.

The Reality is you get some uses that refuse to use Daz but want Genesis and its abilities in their choice app. So they will go out of their way to have it that way. This is not a bad thing. It brings out some clever techniques and methods that never seemed possible. Poser uses have a die hard attitude. After all it is mainly the users that develope for it. SM just releases the app and says have fun. Just look at all the python magic etc. There is always a way. It might not be the simplest and easiest, but always a way. For some its just too much effort, for others they thrive on the challenge. Remember this is a hobby. Not all are in it to render and develope content. Some like to Dissect and re-create.

I like the Genesis figure, I am still not in love with Daz Studio.  I"m wondering if there will be a separate Poser line or whether Poser will be able to utilize the Genesis content I've already purchased.  Truth be told, I don't care if a figure is Genesis or not if it looks good.  The bottom line is that I want Poser as a program to survive, if that means Geneis has to be available for it I don't care.  I just want to be able to keep using a program which I truly love.