With all the chains and all the meshes over top all the other meshes.
Could you have meshes like these in Poser ,D/S ?

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http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?174659-Andrzej-Marszalek-Art-Dump

with enough work and the right displacement maps and material settings, i don't see why not. Those are game meshes after all. 

~Shane

Quote - with enough work and the right displacement maps and material settings, i don't see why not. Those are game meshes after all. 

 

~Shane

Then how come we don't see meshes like them in the store ?

RorrKonn

Are you asking about the actual low rez mesh or about the finished characters?

The main reason I can see is the rigging. Low rez poser figures tend to distort a LOT when bent, making figures that use low rex meshes and a high amount of Normals or Displacement to produce details a hard thing to rig pleasingly. The second thing is that DAZ and Smith Micro have sort of pushed the market toward high rez figures over the course of time and the customers just don;t see the value of low rez and thus rarely support it. Thirdly, those are abd would be, basically stand-alone figures not clothing or morphs for V4 M4 etc., since the market supported here is geared in the direction of support for those figures, stand-alone isn;t really done here, there are other market places where they are better recieved and sell better.

I suspect (ad DAZ Studio already has this) when Poser gets on the fly subD you'll start seeing more and more of this type of work.

Quote - > Quote - with enough work and the right displacement maps and material settings, i don't see why not. Those are game meshes after all. 

 

~Shane

 

Then how come we don't see meshes like them in the store ?

Poser's rigging isn't really designed to handle the sort of rigging figures like that would need to function properly. With enough creative planning it could be done, but the time and hassle involved would not be beneficial to the creator, especially at the dirt-cheap pricing that's expected in the poser market, so I wouldn't expect to see anything resembling the level of quality and time investment it would require. 

That said, if you wanted to build a figure like that to function in poser for your own needs then it's not impossible, but it would be rather pointless as there is other software available that would make the whole process much less of a headache and much less time-consuming. Blender, for example, would be much more efficient. Even z-brush with its rigging system, but that would be designed more for still images than animation, since zb's animation is still rather rudamentary. 

~Shane

Maybe Firebat characters are beyond us.

Think they would sell really good thou.

Maybe we could put some killer armor on M5 thou ,V5 also.

Not Firebats actual armor but armor as complicated as Firebats armor.

Would it be feasible to take the armor off of Firebats monsters and put the armor on M5 ?
Or would that not be practical ether ?

Some of the Poser 2 figures were modeled with built in clothing - nothing this elaborate of course, but the same concept. IIRC there were even morphs to do things like create a skirt on the figure or remove it.

I think that Letterworks is correct about the market. Even at Poset level prices, buying a 'dedicated' knight in armor vs. buying a generic figurs that you can turn into a variety of characters - the latter seems more attractive. Gaming models are a different market. Things like creatures and monsters are more where I think this sort of model would appeal. Even there, people seem to like the flexibility of putting the Freak in a tutu etc. Genesis may change things in a way in that regard, but you're still dealing with a protean mesh being transformed into different forms, rather than a dedicated figure.

I'm not veary familiar with them but some of the Sanctum Arts figures probably come closest to these figures. As AmbientShade says, for the price they would require, the market probably isn't there. I can see them appealing to someone making maybe a long running comic or a film - for genaral Poser hobbyists not so much - people value flexibility.  

Quote -Some of the Poser 2 figures were modeled with built in clothing - nothing this elaborate of course, but the same concept. IIRC there were even morphs to do things like create a skirt on the figure or remove it.

I think that Letterworks is correct about the market. Even at Poset level prices, buying a 'dedicated' knight in armor vs. buying a generic figurs that you can turn into a variety of characters - the latter seems more attractive. Gaming models are a different market. Things like creatures and monsters are more where I think this sort of model would appeal. Even there, people seem to like the flexibility of putting the Freak in a tutu etc. Genesis may change things in a way in that regard, but you're still dealing with a protean mesh being transformed into different forms, rather than a dedicated figure.

I'm not veary familiar with them but some of the Sanctum Arts figures probably come closest to these figures. As AmbientShade says, for the price they would require, the market probably isn't there. I can see them appealing to someone making maybe a long running comic or a film - for genaral Poser hobbyists not so much - people value flexibility.

Got a URL for Sanctum Arts ?

I wouldn't make meshes this complicated just for sales.

They no longer produce Poser content, RorrKonn. 

Sanctum Arts came to my mind, too.  He no longer sells Poser stuff, but if you Google the name, you can see what his stuff looked like.

Personally, I did not buy his stuff.  It was very well-done, but so distinctive.  You could spot it right away, which, IMO, limited the usefulness of it.  I'd prefer something that I could put my own mark on more easily. 

But a lot of people loved his stuff and bought it, so maybe there would be a market for figures like these, too.

Also...the general style of these reminds of Poisen's work.  He does props not figures, but they are very elaborate like this.

Sanctum Arts goes buy Midnight_stories ,yes ?
http://contentparadise.com/searchimageviewdetail.aspx?searchText=Sanctum+art

This is them also ,yes ?
http://sanctumart.cgsociety.org/gallery/284135/

I like Sanctum & Poisen's Art.

Poisen's Demon-Mask Super-Prop
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/demon-mask-super-prop/80763
Any one know what the Polycount is ?
Does Poisen use zBrush displacement maps ?

I would never even try to make a million different people just what they all wanted.
I'm not that smart ,I can't even figure out what to get my girls for Christmas.
All I can do is strive to earn the right to set at the same table as Royo ,Boris.

When you see a Royo painting you know it's Royo.
When you see a Boris Painting you know it's Boris or his girl Julie.
When you see a Aery Soul out fit ya know it's Aery Soul's.
Seems like all the best Artist have there own distinctive style.

Sanctum doesn't go by Midnight Stories :)

That is them on CG Society but they are pretty old posts.

What's the point of changing your name or going buy different names ?

Just my own opinion and I am not trying to pick a fight with the talented previous posters...

Sure this is do-able, I would use a combination of normal and displacement maps along with some good modeling. I think Teyon showed that the wings can be rigged from his own creation (can't recall the name however).

There are certain limitations in Poser to whatever you want to create, but as a whole I believe this kind of creation can happen. Poser rigging used to slow down my creation process but that is happening less and less now.

"What's the point of changing your name or going buy different names ?"

Different markets, different identies maybe. I can see not using your Poser identiry at CGSociety. Same thing with some authors using different names for different types of books. I have no idea if that's their reasoning of coursePoisen's,

Poisen's stuff if very well done but oy vey does it make me cringe - all those pointy and prickly parts LOL. * *

Quote - "What's the point of changing your name or going buy different names ?"

Different markets, different identies maybe. I can see not using your Poser identiry at CGSociety. Same thing with some authors using different names for different types of books. I have no idea if that's their reasoning of coursePoisen's,

Poisen's stuff if very well done but oy vey does it make me cringe - all those pointy and prickly parts LOL.* *

When Garth Brooks put out a rock record as Chris Gaines.
They would go.
Garth Brooks alter ego Chris Gaines.

When Price changed his name to a symbol.
They would go.
The Artist formally known as Prince.

LOL ,It's still Prince ,Garth Brooks.

I'm RorrKonn on all the forums even CGTalk .

Quote - Just my own opinion and I am not trying to pick a fight with the talented previous posters...

Sure this is do-able, I would use a combination of normal and displacement maps along with some good modeling. I think Teyon showed that the wings can be rigged from his own creation (can't recall the name however).

There are certain limitations in Poser to whatever you want to create, but as a whole I believe this kind of creation can happen. Poser rigging used to slow down my creation process but that is happening less and less now.

I've made some ruff meshes for testing.
See just how far we can go ,before we break something.
Need to get a better understanding of how stuff moves in Poser ,Studio.
In zBrush never give rigs ,complicated meshes ,polycount a thought.

Going to start small put some Armor on V5 ,M5.
V5 first she'll have a lot less Armor.
V5 can morph in to some or all the other Vicky ,Akio the Girl versions ,I think.

I know I'll be the one to model ,map ,texture ,displacement map the mesh.
Not sure who's going to make it all work in Poser ,Studio. yet.
Probably be best if a experienced vender joined the insanity.

At this point Don't know if one of my meshes will be turned in to a stand alone mesh for Poser ,Studio.
Would be cool thou.

If some one would make a 72 hours in a day plug would be helpful ;)

I haven't done any rigging with weightmapping inside poser, maybe that'll change the game a bit, but I think this kind of thing would be easier to do as a stand-alone figure than as a conforming outfit for a vickie.

One problem with conforming is that you are limited to the same bodypart segments and names as the parent figure. This can be problematic if you have extra armor plates on, say, the shoulders or the elbows and you want them to move independently of the usual rCollar, rShoulder, rForeArm parts. There's also the issue of deformation, it can be tricky to have a mix of rigid plates and soft, bendy parts like straps.

The mesh shouldn't be too difficult, I think I would build a lowish-res base model, sculpt the high-res detail, then bake it back into a normal map for the base model.

cool wire frame

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?174659-Andrzej-Marszalek-Art-Dump/page2

Quote - I haven't done any rigging with weightmapping inside poser, maybe that'll change the game a bit, but I think this kind of thing would be easier to do as a stand-alone figure than as a conforming outfit for a vickie.

One problem with conforming is that you are limited to the same bodypart segments and names as the parent figure. This can be problematic if you have extra armor plates on, say, the shoulders or the elbows and you want them to move independently of the usual rCollar, rShoulder, rForeArm parts. There's also the issue of deformation, it can be tricky to have a mix of rigid plates and soft, bendy parts like straps.

The mesh shouldn't be too difficult, I think I would build a lowish-res base model, sculpt the high-res detail, then bake it back into a normal map for the base model.

Baking is definitely part of the plan.

I'm not experience enough yet for a stand alone mesh in Poser ,Studio.

After I get some experience and if some talented Poser ,Studio Artist want's to be part of the crew .Maybe a stand alone mesh then.

Letterworks is right you can model that easy enough, but it's the afterwards thats usually the major hassle. Suppose I'm making a spacesuit and want a pipe running from the rear of the forearm to the rear of the upper arm. So when the arms move the pipe would move as well and remain connected to both body parts. Easy enough to model the pipes onto the forearm, but when the arm moves so does the pipe. Put the figure in a even a basic pose, like a bent elbow, and theres a chance the pipe would poke through the front of the upper arm. OK, you could use a mix of things like easy pose, morphs or ERC. But you'd need to really break the mesh down into lots of groups. It's often the same for non-organic things like Hydrulic struts as well. Which raises the question is it worth the time? Personally If I'm making a static prop or part that won't move, then yes I'll happily detail away like a loon. Indeed I rather do that than modeled always looks better than stuff like displacement. Polycount isn't always an issue either if you're careful. But for moving stuff, I find giving the impression the parts are joined is usually quicker and easier. Which in some ways is a shame as I'd rather try and keep true to my design idea, but equally I know it's about accepting a compromise on whats possible.

Quote - Letterworks is right you can model that easy enough, but it's the afterwards thats usually the major hassle. Suppose I'm making a spacesuit and want a pipe running from the rear of the forearm to the rear of the upper arm. So when the arms move the pipe would move as well and remain connected to both body parts. Easy enough to model the pipes onto the forearm, but when the arm moves so does the pipe. Put the figure in a even a basic pose, like a bent elbow, and theres a chance the pipe would poke through the front of the upper arm. OK, you could use a mix of things like easy pose, morphs or ERC. But you'd need to really break the mesh down into lots of groups. It's often the same for non-organic things like Hydrulic struts as well. Which raises the question is it worth the time? Personally If I'm making a static prop or part that won't move, then yes I'll happily detail away like a loon. Indeed I rather do that than modeled always looks better than stuff like displacement. Polycount isn't always an issue either if you're careful. But for moving stuff, I find giving the impression the parts are joined is usually quicker and easier. Which in some ways is a shame as I'd rather try and keep true to my design idea, but equally I know it's about accepting a compromise on whats possible.

Exactly, I made a mini-gun, like the one used in predator, once then found that it was virtually impossible to make the ammo feed work rigged and not stretch or distort to the point where I would never offer it to the market place for fear of too many complaints. I wound up making it a static prop shaped to the pose in the render. Way easier!

Of course that was a few years ago, the morph and ECM tools are better now, but then you run into the problem of work/time vs sales. It would then be a matter of "if I were doing it for my own needs, then just putting it in the store to see how it would sell", but I seriously doubt  the number of sales  would be worth the effort of making something like that, with the rigging and tweaking needed to get it right, strictly as a RMP product and then try to sell it at a price point the Poser community seems willing to pay. It would possibly take years to show a profit. Which is probably the main reason you don;t see that type of work. Incidentally, it's probably also the reason you see so few "non-mainstream" figures supported.

It's a lot more profitable to make less complicated and thus faster/easier, and to make items for the mainstream figures, then set a price point that the community would embrace. The number of sales make for an acceptable profit.

Look at the complaints that have been generated since the RMP has raised the minimum prices for some products. Sales are already down from a few years ago, making the market less attractive to "higher end" products. That is not to say the quality is any less, actually the opposite! But it's more attractive to choose to make a product involving less time to make, and so raising the "Profit to Work" ratio for the creator.

Some more cool stuff from BoBo_the_seal

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?170535-The-Character-Art-of-Darksiders-II-%28new-images-pg-5-6-7%29

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103863

Its not so much whether poser could handle it, it's whether the community would want it.

The best place to market that level of modeling skill would be to film/game studios (in the form of demo reels), or higher end sites like squid, where you'll actually get more of your time's worth payment. Occasionally you may find poser models approaching that level of detail/professionalism but very few in the poser community would be willing to pay the prices required to make the time investment worth it. 

In many instances its actually easier, and faster, to rig models like this for games. The underlying geometry is usually relatively simple and straightforward (very different from most geometry used in poser figures) and utilizes geo swapping where necessary. 

~Shane

I seem to recall reading that in films, they sometimes have multiple models – presumably with different construction/functionality – for different shots etc. I imagine that in the same way, the model used for a box cover or cut scene may not be the same as the in game model. Also, in films, you have the luxury of using any number of cheats to make things look the way you want. I caught a bit of the Transformers movie on TV the other night. In the transformation scenes, it was hard to see exactly what the heck was going on except a lot of parts jumping around. I tend to doubt that all of the pieces were actually moving in a coordinated fashion they way they would on a real model.

In Poser, people understandably want a model that’s going to look good from every angle, and they want the moving parts to move and look like they would in real life, even if they’re rendering a still image of any arbitrary pose. I imagine people would want to create armies of these things too so having some kind of low polygon alternative would be nice – a lot of sometimes conflicting demands for one poor model ÷)

"Exactly, I made a mini-gun, like the one used in predator........" Yep thats the kinda modelling/design problem I face daily. Though I'm not worried about possible complaints or price. I know most folks will accept theres limitations and everyones skint. So I always aim to price fairly. For me it's more about the time things take and stuff like your points about minimum price rises. Particularly the restrictions on where/how products can be discussed. OK, poserdom can be a bit 'flat earth' at times, but us little guys are hardly a serious threat. "Its not so much whether poser could handle it, it's whether the community would want it. Personally I find if the price, service and quality is right they will. Certainly found over the last 10 years the poser community is more likely to buy than those at the squid.

I don't remember the op mentioning if this was a viable sales piece, hell nothing sells enough to make up for the time and effort it takes to create something...you do it because you want to.

I find the modeler should usually also be the rigger. That way they know how the topology should flow and what pieces can be correctly rigged and what pieces should just be morph targets, etc, etc. It can be done on a "hired gun" basis but again I find that the person who commits the time and effort that it takes to model something also commits that same time and effort into rigging.

How do you get the RED rectangle to stay straight when she bends her knee ?
How do you get the torus "donuts" to keep there shape ?

Can we stick nulls in V5 and have the meshes bend to the nulls ?
Any way to control what bends the mesh ?
I'm open to any and all suggestions.

V4 had the same rigs for Poser & Studio ,Yes ?
If I rig a stand alone mesh in Studio it will work for Poser ,Yes ?

If I can't get this to work with DAZ meshes I'll make my own.

Conforming items bend, smart parented items don't...they both have their strengths and weaknesses; ERC is your friend.

Rigging can affect how much of your item bends...or doesn't; and you also have inherit bends too.

Just for the record those "midnight stories" items are morph& texture add ons for some  discontinued Sanctumart products.

They have no affiliation with Sanctum art /Micheal Rak

Cheers

You know what happened to Sanctum Art / Michael Rak ?

"You know what happened to Sanctum Art / Michael Rak ?

Hi Well poser content was never his primary Area of CG/modeling production but just a side venture for the extra Cash .

Many of his products, ( Like RDL7), were made for other professional Game &Film projects and were retasked for poser as an after thought.

At some point in time the labor to cash return ratio in the poser market became no longer worthwhile for him so when
it came time to renew the lease on his website, he chose to move on.

Micheal is doing Great!! and  still making some Amazing pro level CG content.
just not for Poser/Daz.

Cheers

Any sugestion on how to make monster aromor look sexy on Vicky ?

LOL.

Not one of my brightes ideas.

How do you get the RED rectangle to stay straight when she bends her knee ? I'd load the mesh into a modeller and either model or add that kinda part to the lower leg. Export out, then in UV Mapper add that new mesh to the existing group for that leg. To make the mesh avaliable to everyone else you'd have to use something like RTE Encoder. How do you get the torus "donuts" to keep there shape ? Pretty much as above. Or if you used wanted prop versions try parenting. Any way to control what bends the mesh ? maybe some morphs?