People moved from V3 to V4 indeed, inspite of having lot's of content for V3 still. But that was an easy move. When Genesis arrived we could not move at all, so we kept on buying V4 content. Now after 2 years of so we can finally use Genesis somewhat, but a lot of content still doesn't work in Poser. It's not an easy move, lot's of content doesn't work and lot's of V4 stuff still around, so people opt for sticking to V4. If poser users could have used genesis from the start, it may have worked out differently.

I should say also, whilst I appreciate the various reasons why the DSON Importer works the way it does... creating a dynamic instance of Genesis, within Poser, and a more "virtual" cr2... I still wish it was capable of outputing a functioning native Poser figure, i.e. an actual cr2, referencing an actual object.

Basically I wish it could "bake" it's end result into proper Poser format...

...that is, I could, as a feature of it's design, load up a Genesis figure from the virtual cr2, dial it, select a subd level, fit clothes etc, and then save that as a functioning cr2/obj, without all the stuff I'm then not requiring for my scene, before I work with it further... posing it etc.

The above would be top of my wishlist for how the DSON Importer could ideally work, for me.

It would then be up to me what point in my workflow I did the "baking" ...and once "baked" I accept that I'd have to go back to a dynamic instance to perhaps change anything more than pose or expression, I would guess... but being able to effectively remove all the stuff I don't need that is bogging down my subsequent scene prep would be a major deal for me.

I don't think the above is entirely possible at present. Although a cr2 can be saved, I think key aspects of it are then broken? They seemed to be when I tried this previously...

The op is, as has already been stated, wrong.

NIcer is a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact.

Dson does not always work, from what I have read, in all computers and configurations.  I'm unwilling to experiment, then to have to do a system restore to get the computer to work again.

Some of the functions, or "advantages" work only in DS4/4.5, meaning if you want them, you have to use DS, which in the machines I've tried it in only yields a locked up computer, the only thing I could do is push reset.

But my question would be, why trash the old and reliable for the new and unreliable immediately, as soon as it's released?  The Gen 3 and 4 figures are well supported, they can be used in almost all of the versions of Poser and DS without any hassles, if products for them still sell, why wish they would go away.

And ignoring my own advice here, DON'T FEED THE TROLL.

Doric

Quote - I think the big issue is that the python code really needs to be compiled to be faster, as code that needs to be interpreted is going to be way slower. 

The DSON importer actually uses almost no Python code. Most of the work is done by the C++ shared libs/DLLs and the geometry is loaded from OBJs as it's done traditionally in Poser. Of course we don't know exactly what's happening in the DLL and there is probably some calls to the Python Poser API to arrange things with the geometry. Keep in mind that the .duf files are compressed JSON file so they are rather verbose, plus they need to be uncompressed. Depending on the operation, this can be pretty expensive.
In general DAZ has traditionally struggled to make their code run fast, and I suspect that the DSON plugin was prepared pretty quickly with not too much concern for performance.

We can look at the timeline to get a good idea. The DSON plugin uses the new Add-On Framework that was announced by Smith Micro and myself in August at SIGGRAPH. I don't know for sure but I assume that DAZ contacted SM after that announcement and got access to the framework. 

Then DAZ released the DSON plugin in November, if I remember well. That means about three months of development. Not much, IMHO. And this is happening while they are updating Studio with other changes and bugfixes. 

That doesn't give much time to optimize things.

For what I've heard the development team at DAZ is rather slim nowadays so they are probably spread a bit thin and optimization is probably a luxury at this time.

Cheers.

Quote - > Quote - I think the big issue is that the python code really needs to be compiled to be faster, as code that needs to be interpreted is going to be way slower. 

The DSON importer actually uses almost no Python code. Most of the work is done by the C++ shared libs/DLLs and the geometry is loaded from OBJs as it's done traditionally in Poser. Of course we don't know exactly what's happening in the DLL and there is probably some calls to the Python Poser API to arrange things with the geometry. Keep in mind that the .duf files are compressed JSON file so they are rather verbose, plus they need to be uncompressed. Depending on the operation, this can be pretty expensive.
In general DAZ has traditionally struggled to make their code run fast, and I suspect that the DSON plugin was prepared pretty quickly with not too much concern for performance.

We can look at the timeline to get a good idea. The DSON plugin uses the new Add-On Framework that was announced by Smith Micro and myself in August at SIGGRAPH. I don't know for sure but I assume that DAZ contacted SM after that announcement and got access to the framework. 

Then DAZ released the DSON plugin in November, if I remember well. That means about three months of development. Not much, IMHO. And this is happening while they are updating Studio with other changes and bugfixes. 

That doesn't give much time to optimize things.

For what I've heard the development team at DAZ is rather slim nowadays so they are probably spread a bit thin and optimization is probably a luxury at this time.

Cheers.

I think you're mistaken on that. The very nature of how it runs initially versus subsequent runs reeks of uncompiled code of python. Subsequent runs are faster due to the caching of the python code; since the calls are common, it doesn't need to compile it again. Also thought there may not be a lot of python code, the slowness during the "projection" phase is due to the interaction of calls between python, c++ and scrolling through the collection of morphs within Genesis (back and forth between the DSON libraries) to determine what morphs are active and should be added to the clothing and which aren't. The constant communication between compiled and uncompiled portions is causing the slowness, which doesn't matter how much python code you're writing... it's what is being accessed... which is in this case would be the user interface and material room, for instance. Also the updating of subdivision since that isn't native to Poser.

If the portions of python code could be compiled, then the communication would be faster, since you would deal with libraries of compiled code, not compiled and interpreted code.

LaurieA a new figure? "From just North of the Mason-Dixon line- we bring your newest figure- LaurieA!

Hmnnnnn.... maybe I should start working on character morphs for the old-timer Renderosity members? :-)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'm now using a bit of everything at my disposal... ...a bit of Daz Gen4... V4, both weight mapped and standard, a bit of Gen5, a bit of Miki4, Tyler, Anastasia and Shae, and Michelle... Kez WM... Antonia... Angela even, Laurie ;-)

Wait a minute! Did I mis-read that, is Laurie a new a figure?

He he, I thought that read like that myself after I typed the post ;-)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I think the big issue is that the python code really needs to be compiled to be faster, as code that needs to be interpreted is going to be way slower. 

The DSON importer actually uses almost no Python code. Most of the work is done by the C++ shared libs/DLLs and the geometry is loaded from OBJs as it's done traditionally in Poser. Of course we don't know exactly what's happening in the DLL and there is probably some calls to the Python Poser API to arrange things with the geometry. Keep in mind that the .duf files are compressed JSON file so they are rather verbose, plus they need to be uncompressed. Depending on the operation, this can be pretty expensive.
In general DAZ has traditionally struggled to make their code run fast, and I suspect that the DSON plugin was prepared pretty quickly with not too much concern for performance.

We can look at the timeline to get a good idea. The DSON plugin uses the new Add-On Framework that was announced by Smith Micro and myself in August at SIGGRAPH. I don't know for sure but I assume that DAZ contacted SM after that announcement and got access to the framework. 

Then DAZ released the DSON plugin in November, if I remember well. That means about three months of development. Not much, IMHO. And this is happening while they are updating Studio with other changes and bugfixes. 

That doesn't give much time to optimize things.

For what I've heard the development team at DAZ is rather slim nowadays so they are probably spread a bit thin and optimization is probably a luxury at this time.

Cheers.

I think you're mistaken on that. The very nature of how it runs initially versus subsequent runs reeks of uncompiled code of python. Subsequent runs are faster due to the caching of the python code; since the calls are common, it doesn't need to compile it again. Also thought there may not be a lot of python code, the slowness during the "projection" phase is due to the interaction of calls between python, c++ and scrolling through the collection of morphs within Genesis (back and forth between the DSON libraries) to determine what morphs are active and should be added to the clothing and which aren't. The constant communication between compiled and uncompiled portions is causing the slowness, which doesn't matter how much python code you're writing... it's what is being accessed... which is in this case would be the user interface and material room, for instance. Also the updating of subdivision since that isn't native to Poser.

If the portions of python code could be compiled, then the communication would be faster, since you would deal with libraries of compiled code, not compiled and interpreted code.

There is probably a bug in the importer where it each time something changes in the dson items, it will redo the entire set of dson items. So add an item and all the existing items are being redone - even for figures which are not related to that item.

Simple test: Add multiple genesis items. If you add 6 genesis figures with each one clothing item and one hair item, the wait will be more than 5 minutes when you add the last one.

I am currently using both Gen4 and Genesis.

My computer is a first gen Intel MacPro and I'm running Snow Leopard since I can't buy Mountain Lion (although it works on 1st Gen-Apple decided it wants me to buy a new computer).It is a 4 core Xeon 2.66 Ghz so it works fine for most of my purposes.

DSON works- other than persistent poke through issues. Those have to be solved with the Morph brush-or post work.

I have lots of morph packages loaded in Genesis- when I transfer active morphs to the Elf Dress it takes 5 minutes the first time-as it projects the entire list. I suppose there is no way to make it ignore projecting foot morphs on the hair-although that would save time!

 The poke though gets worse when I re-apply "transfer active morphs"- although it only take seconds the second time around.

Unlike SOME people :-) -I rarely render MALE figures- but when I do-some of them are bearded- and Mec4D's beards (fiber mesh) move along with the face with Genesis. There are NO (to my knowledge) realistic beards for the Gen 4 figures.

Quote - Personally, I have too much V3/V4 to even begin to consider genesis.  I just don't want to deal with it and I'm not ready to spend the money on yet another figure along with all new clothes/hair/textures/etc to go with it so that's my reason.  :)

I agree 100 percent and I think that fits a lot of people not chiming in on this thread.

Quote - don´t understand ?? Genesis benefits are so much nicer .. am I wrong ??

your original question "why Still Victoria Products"?

A large part of this is due to Money

Genesis is new and was not made for poser, people and I refer to most of the high end clothing creators, no not all but several have made a product for Genesis and if it does not sell well they go back to what does sell and V4 still sells and genesis did not.

Now With the Dson some may be looking at Genesis again, but they will create what will sell, and Poser is a huge group Daz Studio a smaller group.

Dson=(DazStudioOnNarcotics) LOL...or is there a better one?

Quote - > Quote - don´t understand ?? Genesis benefits are so much nicer .. am I wrong ??

your original question "why Still Victoria Products"?

 

A large part of this is due to Money

Genesis is new and was not made for poser, people and I refer to most of the high end clothing creators, no not all but several have made a product for Genesis and if it does not sell well they go back to what does sell and V4 still sells and genesis did not.

Now With the Dson some may be looking at Genesis again, but they will create what will sell, and Poser is a huge group Daz Studio a smaller group.

 

 

Dson=(DazStudioOnNarcotics) LOL...or is there a better one?

Tavia, I guess you missed this post from the mod, Kendra... so let me post it for you since the conversation was actually going so well before your post. I would think if you want to participate it should actually be factual and not the usual troll-post:

Quote - I don't want to lock this one and it doesn't have to turn into an argument thread if everyone just keeps it to personal opinion and not criticism of other opinions.  A thread like this could be informative if someone is on the fence on whether to go with genesis or not.  

Personally, I have too much V3/V4 to even begin to consider genesis.  I just don't want to deal with it and I'm not ready to spend the money on yet another figure along with all new clothes/hair/textures/etc to go with it so that's my reason.  :)

I liked Genesis, but for me Poser Pro 2012 just worked better than Studio.  Plus I dropped a ton of money on V4 improvements.  I like V4.  Especially with the :

Perfect V4 Complete - Full Body Fix 

If you are just starting out and didn't have a ton of money in V4 and M4 Genesis is great...but I just showed up a little too early to the party.  She was free when I started on this journey..so for me I'm sticking with V4.  (Now if they make Daz Studio render faster for me then I might pull poor V5 out and use her....)

Compiling Python scripts are a really,really bad idea.  Compiled scripts are compiled against a SPECIFIC python version.  Updated python = broken scripts.  And based on DAZ's history of updating their software programs, that would be a net minus.

Quote - Compiling Python scripts are a really,really bad idea.  Compiled scripts are compiled against a SPECIFIC python version.  Updated python = broken scripts.  And based on DAZ's history of updating their software programs, that would be a net minus.

But how many times has python been updated in Poser? I think the last time was Poser 2012 after how many versions? Sounds like a workable solution to me, if it's going to give you speed enhancements.

I'll use any and all the app's ,That I can.
They all have something to offer.
Every new App I use ,I make new friends ,Learn new stuff.
Become a more educated Artist.

The only thing about Genesis that's interested me so far are a few clothing items made 'only for Genesis'... like Luthbel's latest stuff. But I'd have to buy Poser9 or Pro 2012 to use the DSON and then buy the clothes. That's a big investment just for like 3 or 4 outfits.

I'd dabble in DAZ Sudio4 but then I'd have to download the 5,000 DAZ texture paks I never grabbed - or - manually fix the textures on everything I use in DAZ Studio... again only to use a handful of Genesis clothing outfits.

The Genesis ability to morph into anything and the clothes to follow is very enticing, but not enticing enough really.

Getting Genesis into future versions of Poser will probably user-friendly. I applaud DAZ for creating the DSON. I suppose they're doing it to get back customers they've lost.

If you look in your Program Files (Win) or Applications (mac) folder, into the Poser default runtime there, where the addons are installed under runtime:Python:addons:dson...

...you'll see a Python file called init.py ...and that's about it for the uncompiled Python, by the looks of it... anything else in there looks to me like compiled Python or C++? (including the QTCore framework files)

I reckon all that possibly can be is probably already compiled?

So, if that's the case, then the bottlenecking is occuring... I'd guess... either due to single-threading where there needs to be some parallelism... or just down to a lot of iterating code that isn't fully optimised. But that's just a guess.

That "projection" stage, when I run it, fires up about twenty or so identical progress windows (all stacked up over the top of each other). They count up the execution time and disappear one by one, synchronously, until the process is complete.

At a guess, I think all those are probably meant to ideally be one dialogue, with asynchronous processing going on behind it? That's likely how the equivalent process runs in DS4.5... I'd suppose?

Anyway... unless any Poser Team or Daz devs are about to chip in now, I suspect we're in a pretty speculative realm here... I'm expecting just to sit back and wait for the next DSON Importer build and / or Poser 9 / 2012 Service Release 4... to see how well it can all be improved...

Does anyone know why DSON is recording my use of Poser?

In C:UsersusernameAppDataRoamingDAZ 3DDsonPoser there is a log file and even when I don't use DSON or Genesis it logs the date and time and what I am doing in Poser.

Maybe another reason not to use DSON. :huh:

Quote - Does anyone know why DSON is recording my use of Poser?

In C:UsersusernameAppDataRoamingDAZ 3DDsonPoser there is a log file and even when I don't use DSON or Genesis it logs the date and time and what I am doing in Poser.

Jeez, that's kind of creepy. 

Does that mean it's running all the time, taking up resources, even when you aren't using it?

It looks like it is just a simple logfile where it writes down what it is doing when it is called.
It is called when Poser is started to initialise itself and writes down the timestamp. If you don't use DSON, that's it. It doesn't send it anywhere, it is just a help file to assist them in sorting out problems. Almost every program has something like this, it is usually turned off by default when a program is matured. In the introduction phase, it is often turned on for trouble shooting.

And it is not running all the time, it is just logging what it is called to do and does not do anything when it is not called,

So nothing to worry about.

I like the way I can toon in poser and take into account transparency as well.  It is the style i am using for my comic.

Genesis works a bit too slowly to be really useful as yet.

Love esther

Whether people want to use V4 or Genesis is up to them of course, but I do wish merchants here would consider making more Genesis products. Just as some people like to point out that they haven't spent much at DAZ since they introduced Genesis, I haven't spent a cent here in months because I finally did switch to using Genesis and no longer want V4 stuff.

Probably this whole thing would seem strange to somebody viewing from afar, considering both products are made by the same company.

I'll say one thing though, in general there are all kinds of alienating things going on in the span of one version of poser... It's a challenge to think of another piece of graphics software that has so many members only features introduced in such a short amount of time. SSS, EZSkin, Genesis, visible in camera, weight mapping, etc.

Am I wrong?

Quote - Probably this whole thing would seem strange to somebody viewing from afar, considering both products are made by the same company.

I'll say one thing though, in general there are all kinds of alienating things going on in the span of one version of poser... It's a challenge to think of another piece of graphics software that has so many members only features introduced in such a short amount of time. SSS, EZSkin, Genesis, visible in camera, weight mapping, etc.

Am I wrong?

I never could figure out why every one keep making App's just like Max.
And know one made a App a lot like Poser with SubD's n Maps.or at least a Poser like Plug.
Since Poser was the only App that had characters.

Ya know it would have been easy for high end app's to make Vicky work in there App.

Well, there is the Interposer plug in for Cinema4D (that's 3rd party) which a lot of people seem to use. Poser content runs natively in Carrara, that's more of a middle end app, I guess. Have to break away from Poser for a little while and spend more time with Carrara...pretty darned disorienting, though. Being that Carrara is a Daz app I imagine that Genesis will get comfy there in it's next version?

...With Max who needs Vicky or Genesis when you can have all of those super sexy Turbosquid models. If you've got the income, that is.

Quote - > Quote - Compiling Python scripts are a really,really bad idea.  Compiled scripts are compiled against a SPECIFIC python version.  Updated python = broken scripts.  And based on DAZ's history of updating their software programs, that would be a net minus.

But how many times has python been updated in Poser? I think the last time was Poser 2012 after how many versions? Sounds like a workable solution to me, if it's going to give you speed enhancements.

It has been updated almost every version of Poser.  Every time I have to contact vendors to get them to update their scripts - some do, some don't.  

I never had any problems with phyton scripts when running them poser 6-8, but poser 9 is a different story. I've got various scripts that I run in a number of poser version, but with poser 9 you need to have the script re-written. As far as I know this is the first time in a long time that poser phyton has been updated.

Quote - don´t understand ?? Genesis benefits are so much nicer .. am I wrong ??

Are you wrong? No not really, and yes at the same time.

I will give my personal view on it, feel free to flame me for it and get the thread locked.

Just some random thought here:

Genesis can use a lot of stuff for V4, which kept V4 products valid to a point. Mat sets work, lots of clothes work, poses work, etc, etc, etc...

Not everyone uses Daz Studio or Poser 9 up. Either of these situations makes Genesis completely useless to them.

Genesis is a control mesh, not an actual working mesh. Yes, when you export it you get a mesh, but it is one built from the control data based on the resolution you exported it at.

Genesis doesn't work in other programs that use control mesh characters. You are not going to see anyone using a Genesis character in Houdini. Cinema4d, Max, etc for anything other than to just play around with it. It is missing a lot of what a "normal" control mesh character would have in those applications. You would have to  re rig it in some of those programs anyway.

So, why not make V4 products? A larger section of the market can use V4 products than Genesis products. You can use V4 in Bryce, Carrara, Poser 8 down, Vue, etc. etc. etc...

Dont get me wrong, Genesis is a neat idea. It makes for easy point and click.

Other 3D companies must not see much interest in Genesis, or it would work in those programs in its native format now as well.

If you look at 90% of the 2D/3D standards out there, they are open source. Free for anyone to use because big companies got together and gave them to the community.

Genesis is not open source...

Until Genesis is opensource you will see V4 products (and other non Genesis characters).

Other companies are not going to license something that only works in its native format, in a free program...

Flame on....

Food for thought....

P8 introduced a new version of Python (wxPython)

P7 had a new python version (2.4, adding tkinter for mac, some parameter changes)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - don´t understand ?? Genesis benefits are so much nicer .. am I wrong ??

your original question "why Still Victoria Products"?

 

A large part of this is due to Money

Genesis is new and was not made for poser, people and I refer to most of the high end clothing creators, no not all but several have made a product for Genesis and if it does not sell well they go back to what does sell and V4 still sells and genesis did not.

Now With the Dson some may be looking at Genesis again, but they will create what will sell, and Poser is a huge group Daz Studio a smaller group.

 

 

Dson=(DazStudioOnNarcotics) LOL...or is there a better one?

Tavia, I guess you missed this post from the mod, Kendra... so let me post it for you since the conversation was actually going so well before your post. I would think if you want to participate it should actually be factual and not the usual troll-post:

 

actually as I am incontact wih many creators and even test for some, it is factual  except for my personal acronym for 'DSON' which was a bit overboard, but then some just read what they want to as is the away of the world. However the answer I gave actually answers the original question in its simplest way. Cheers!

The V4-WM and Perfect Morphs have gone a long way towards fixing the ugly bends that plagued all characters for so long. I rarely use male characters-I guess I am opposite to Male3Mdia on that! :-) I already mentioned that I like the morph follower behavior in Gen that alllows Mec4D's wonderful fiber mesh beards to work well-so I have some liking of Genesis. Also- her fantastic Neanderthal for Genesis is superb. AND it was simple to blend female morphs in to make a female Neanderthal as well. I just switched the UV maps to V4 with her free switching utility. Of course-using a heavily made up V4 texture on the male Neanderthal was amusing (Transvestite Neanderthal).Or fitting female armor on a Neanderthal-Demon-Brute-as in picture. Not in my gallerybtw. :-)

But I digress!

Addendum on OTHER APPS: I use Lightwave. V4 works fantastically in LW.I'm not sure yet-if I can import Genesis as smoothly.

One reason I forgot. As of now- V4 works best in Vue.

The latest Beta versions of Vue 11 Infinite have added the Sept Poser API- and I have been playing with Genesis into Vue via Poser2012. It has a ways to go. I see the mesh and the control mesh- and have to delete the control mesh manually. And she is not SubD'd. Hopefully that will improve

-)

Quote - > Quote - don´t understand ?? Genesis benefits are so much nicer .. am I wrong ??

Are you wrong? No not really, and yes at the same time.

I will give my personal view on it, feel free to flame me for it and get the thread locked.

Just some random thought here:

Genesis can use a lot of stuff for V4, which kept V4 products valid to a point. Mat sets work, lots of clothes work, poses work, etc, etc, etc...

Not everyone uses Daz Studio or Poser 9 up. Either of these situations makes Genesis completely useless to them.

Genesis is a control mesh, not an actual working mesh. Yes, when you export it you get a mesh, but it is one built from the control data based on the resolution you exported it at.

Genesis doesn't work in other programs that use control mesh characters. You are not going to see anyone using a Genesis character in Houdini. Cinema4d, Max, etc for anything other than to just play around with it. It is missing a lot of what a "normal" control mesh character would have in those applications. You would have to  re rig it in some of those programs anyway.

So, why not make V4 products? A larger section of the market can use V4 products than Genesis products. You can use V4 in Bryce, Carrara, Poser 8 down, Vue, etc. etc. etc...

Dont get me wrong, Genesis is a neat idea. It makes for easy point and click.

Other 3D companies must not see much interest in Genesis, or it would work in those programs in its native format now as well.

If you look at 90% of the 2D/3D standards out there, they are open source. Free for anyone to use because big companies got together and gave them to the community.

Genesis is not open source...

Until Genesis is opensource you will see V4 products (and other non Genesis characters).

Other companies are not going to license something that only works in its native format, in a free program...

Flame on....

Food for thought....

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - don´t understand ?? Genesis benefits are so much nicer .. am I wrong ??

your original question "why Still Victoria Products"?

 

A large part of this is due to Money

Genesis is new and was not made for poser, people and I refer to most of the high end clothing creators, no not all but several have made a product for Genesis and if it does not sell well they go back to what does sell and V4 still sells and genesis did not.

Now With the Dson some may be looking at Genesis again, but they will create what will sell, and Poser is a huge group Daz Studio a smaller group.

 

 

Dson=(DazStudioOnNarcotics) LOL...or is there a better one?

Tavia, I guess you missed this post from the mod, Kendra... so let me post it for you since the conversation was actually going so well before your post. I would think if you want to participate it should actually be factual and not the usual troll-post:

 

actually as I am incontact wih many creators and even test for some, it is factual  except for my personal acronym for 'DSON' which was a bit overboard, but then some just read what they want to as is the away of the world. However the answer I gave actually answers the original question in its simplest way. Cheers!

I think the biggest non factual thing about your post is that DAZ users are a smaller group. That may have been true a few years ago, but it certainly isn't now.  Also it goes without saying that talk to a lot of vendors as well, and it really comes down to the product you're selling regardless of the generation and who you're selling to. I think V5 would be a harder sell to people that don't want to give up their V4 items just because she's been out for years. However there's a increasing number of people that have came into 3D, looking for content that don't have that restraint.. and I hate to say it, but those people are replacing you guys simply because Poser doesn't have the content they want to render. Poser is a great program to render, however, that means nothing if you have nothing to put in a scene. And I think that's why Smith Micro and DAZ are working together because you'll be hard pressed to convince a newbie to plunk down $200 or more dollars just to render some older technology. And that's really what's driving the sales at DAZ more than people that don't want to lose their investments... that's certainly why I have doubled the sales that I've had with Gen4. Personally since I only render males, I'm not wild about either V5 or V4, V5 is fine out of the box but I can understand people not running to her feet. What she does have going for her is the fact that with a tiny bit of work in a modeler you can change up her look and body shape without bugging vendors to add those fits into clothes. If someone that can that can make extraordinary girls gets their hands on her, he/she could really make something spectacular out of her.

M5 on the other hand, is so much better than M4, it's really a hassle for me to go back.. though I did buy that Illusive Dancer for M4 and convert him to M5 (and made some gens for him... naughty naughty.. selling a male without toast ;) . Oh and if you didn't see my M5 holiday freebie on DAZ, go get it. ;) But it was easy to put him together and give you a custom body shape without all the INJ files I would need with Gen 4 and he fits the clothing without fits.

A very nicely stated opinion, I disagree but I also agree that the DAZ community is growing

but numbers across the board for the best selling artist disagree with you.

now we will have to see how well Dson helps Genesis and the venders.

I find it interesting that you mostly use male figures as as you know most use the female and most of the venders that make a living at this make products for female figures and few for male figures but they also have to pay the bills.

Xurge made mostly male products and now makes both very well i would say.

Quote - A very nicely stated opinion, I disagree but I also agree that the DAZ community is growing

but numbers across the board for the best selling artist disagree with you.

Actually they don't. Keep in mind where we both vendor at. You vendor at a smaller brokerage where it would be suicide to really abandon your Gen4 customers until Genesis works well in Poser.  You really don't have that many people trying genesis to make a reasonable opinion.  I know people that have made enough money to leave Gen4 behind and those not interested in Genesis and continue to make Gen 4 items. But sometime it boils down to what we like and what we are comfortable with.

Quote - now we will have to see how well Dson helps Genesis and the venders.

It's still early, however since Genesis has been out for a year, and some PAs have made the switch and some are starting to get their feet wet. I know my experience with genesis have been very positive... and i'm not just talking about only selling.. I can do so much more with my guys that I was severely restricted in Gen4.

Quote - I find it interesting that you mostly use male figures as as you know most use the female and most of the venders that make a living at this make products for female figures and few for male figures but they also have to pay the bills.

So you should know that there are vendors that actually make a living only making male-oriented products and they pay their bills? But it really comes down to what you're good at and like to do. I know this won't replace my day job considering I may WAY more doing that than providing male-oriented products. But the fact that I don't rely on content to pay my bills allows me to support those that want to render males.  And the fact that I've made money from content to pay bills, freeing money up to do trips to Europe and Asia, is quite the bonus. ;)

Maybe it depends on the site at which you're selling?  I could see Genesis doing very well at DAZ, while V4 does better here.

I wonder if maybe Poser and DAZ are going to end up going separate ways.  It kinda seems like they're holding each other back now.  It was a great marriage, but divorce may be looming.  And maybe it will mean an end to the fighting.  ;-)

Quote - I think the biggest non factual thing about your post is that DAZ users are a smaller group.

Quoted so you know who I'm responding to, not that I agree with this either.

But.

The often quoted "old technology" is one argument that will never win anything but the booby prize.  The truth is, micro$oft is the one, in a windblows box, determining the level of tech.  The operating system of the computer dictates how the system functions are addressed, the program you purchase only directs requests to those functions.

3d is an output driven activity.  There are no Leonardos being created because of higher technology, and none are hampered by the lack of newer technology.  The final render is the output, the end result that counts.  How you got there is irrelevant. 

There are a lot of people, and I'm one of them, that will stick with the old because we've paid the price for having tried the "other program" and have had to spend hours getting our computers working properly again.  Once burned, twice learned.

Doric

Why still Victoria products?

Why is anything on sale in any marketplace?

You might ask Why is Rihanna still making albums? Why are so many shiny plastic things for sale at Xmas? Who eats ALL that chocolate?

They're in the marketplace because people believe they will sell. When people stop believing they will sell, they will stop making so many of them.

Whether they actually sell or how well isn't relevant until those actual sales begin to affect the belief.

Quote - Why still Victoria products?

Why is anything on sale in any marketplace?

You might ask Why is Rihanna still making albums? Why are so many shiny plastic things for sale at Xmas? Who eats ALL that chocolate?

They're in the marketplace because people believe they will sell. When people stop believing they will sell, they will stop making so many of them.

Whether they actually sell or how well isn't relevant until those actual sales begin to affect the belief.

I love this! And I am really trying to eat all the chocolate!.... ;)

Support, support, support.
Free support by its creator, is what drives a figure to popularity.
"Free" being the key word here, untill the figure is popular.

When a fugure gets popular to make money for the vendors, they will build.

End 2012??? V4 still pays the bills faster then any other figure.

It is as simple as that.

No, I am not a vendor. :-) but I have my eyes open.

I've fallen in to a black hole and can't get out.

I am proud of us we,ve made it threw 3 pages and
no one has broken out the ray guns yet.

Wounder if they still have Max vs XSI & Max vs Maya
Threads since they're all Autodesk now.

Wounder what Leonardo Da Vinci would think of zBrush 4R5.

Think you could take a million $$$ to turbo still not get 8 descent looking Characters
8 out fits for each.

I'm just thankful we have Poser and or Studio and Venders.
That don't have me pay for the Mars trip with each product.

In addition to the financial investment in content, there is also the time/intellectual investment people have spent in learning the Poser way of doing things as it has evolved. Genesis breaks with that. The closer integration of the figures with the software into more of a ‘system’ is new. Consider just the years that people have spent deciphering the guts of .cr2 files and how to tweak them. Whenever there is a fundamental shift, e.g. moving from desktop programming to the web, there will be a lot of folks who see their investment going up in smoke to some degree. There will be those who are always eager to get onto the next great thing, but they may be a minority. I think that even if Genesis had been Poser compatible from the beginning, there would have been reluctance to adopt it in some quarters. Even if the process were transparent to the end user, the content creators would still face a learning curve. That ‘lost’ investment also translates into emotional investment that can, understandably, surface as resentment and hostility. Eventually, things settle down and you have either a reconciliation or a schism into two different ways of doing things – one or both of which may survive. In this case, we seem to have a growing reconciliation based perhaps on pragmatic business interests, but a reconciliation nevertheless. May the peace be preserved and God bless us every one

"Aye, that one? Got that in the Gamma wars. Ripped from belly to breast bone. Aye, spent six month in the regen tanks and a belly full ‘o synthi-guts to prove it. The eye? Well, lad, there’s a tale. It were in th’ Tits vs. Hits conflict. Ripped clean out ‘o the socket by a Tittenstein dagger it was. Here, gimme your toy magnet. See, sticks right to me head. Got a duranium plate in there. Aye, it were in th’ Genesis war – ethnic cleansing they called it – but take my word for it lad, it were a war, right and proper, and a nasty one at that That were when we lost ol’ Cap’n Ahab. He swore a blood oath that he’d get th’ Great Grey Blob that took his leg if he had to follow her to th’ gates ‘o Hell. Last we saw, he had a harpoon in her when she dived. Never found a hair ’o his head did we. They say you can still see him on dark stormy nights like now, ridin’ atop the great beast and cursin’ God. It be enough to scare a man near to death. Say, lad, pass me that jug ‘o rum. Now, did I ever tell ye about th’ Slutwear Police Action?"

Quote - Support, support, support.
Free support by its creator, is what drives a figure to popularity.
"Free" being the key word here, untill the figure is popular.

When a fugure gets popular to make money for the vendors, they will build.

End 2012??? V4 still pays the bills faster then any other figure.

It is as simple as that.

No, I am not a vendor. :-) but I have my eyes open.

Well spoken, Tony.

Merry Christmas to DAZmonians and Poserites alike!  :wub: 

Advertising had a lot to do with it as well.

Quote - Advertising had a lot to do with it as well.

Theyre not building much good will today; the DAZ site is down.  It's been a rough year site-wise... :sad:

back up now, the elves are on double time methinx

lmckenzie : You have a URL to a Gallery ,Store of yours ?

Quote - back up now, the elves are on double time methinx

Still down for me.

Wild Dr. Who special, eh?  An Anti-Victorian event, one might say...

Haven't had a problem reaching them today, just tried again and it still works for me.

I still get this header from Cloudflare on both FF and Chrome; most any link gives me a "Website is Offline" page...

"This page (http://www.daz3d.com/) is currently offline. However, because the site uses CloudFlare's Always Online™ technology you can continue to surf a snapshot of the site. We will keep checking in the background and, as soon as the site comes back, you will automatically be served the live version. Always Online™ is powered by CloudFlare | Hide this Alert"

I'm on FF and don't get the message at all, just the site as usual.