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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 18 10:25 pm)



Subject: Showcase your Poser dynamic hair (Hair Room)


Believable3D ( ) posted Sat, 22 December 2012 at 3:16 PM

Hm, I think my setup is basic: Alt Diffuse > Hair > ColorRamp, and then each color outputs to a Noise nose. Then a Clouds node off the input of the ColorRamp. (And Diffuse_Color is set to 0.)

I'm liking the actual output; I'm just not seeing quite the variation I would expect.

Maybe my colour use is wrong? My Alternate_Diffuse colour is white. On the Hair node, I have Root_Color as black, Tip_Color as white, and specular as gray. (My minimal understanding of nodes suggests that both root and tip should be white when used with a ColorRamp, but that's not what my screenshot of your shader shows....) The Clouds node has Sky_Color as white and Clour_Color as black. All the desired hair colours are in the ColorRamp.

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dadt ( ) posted Sat, 22 December 2012 at 3:48 PM · edited Sat, 22 December 2012 at 3:51 PM

I can't remember the shader you refer to, but the root colour would normally be white as you say. Possibly I was doing a dark hair with coloured tips.

Ihave just looked at a set-up as you describe and with a cloud node the bottom value had to be set to zero and the gain to more than .9 to provide enough contrast to drive all four steps in the colour ramp.

Putting a noise node onto the ramp colours darkens them considerably unless you increase the min value considerably (this is the main reason for difficulty producing a blonde hair)


Believable3D ( ) posted Sat, 22 December 2012 at 5:09 PM

Thanks, dadt. I will do more experimenting if I get time today.

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randym77 ( ) posted Sat, 22 December 2012 at 11:16 PM · edited Sat, 22 December 2012 at 11:16 PM

file_489810.jpg

> Quote - In EZSkin, open the 'skin' tab. On top you see ' HSV Control', with inpute for 'H' 'S' and 'V', allowing you to change the tone (Hue), saturation (S) and value, or value (V) of the skin. If you have Photoshop, see what an HSV correction layer does. There the 'V' channel is named 'lightness'. It makes your skin darker so less chance of wash-out.

Thanks.  I realized trying to follow your directions that I'm using an older version of EZskin.  I installed the newest version, and it seems promising.  Better than it was, anyway. Though the eyes are still creepy.


Believable3D ( ) posted Sat, 22 December 2012 at 11:50 PM

It looks to me like there is far too much light in the scene, hence the yellow bloom on the skin. The eyes might look better in more natural lighting.

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randym77 ( ) posted Sun, 23 December 2012 at 12:02 AM

Quote - It looks to me like there is far too much light in the scene, hence the yellow bloom on the skin. The eyes might look better in more natural lighting.

Yeah, that's the problem.  The kind of lighting that makes the hair look the way I want is way too much for EZskin shaders. 

Might be able to find a balance with a little experimentation.

 


dadt ( ) posted Sun, 23 December 2012 at 4:28 AM

file_489822.jpg

If the hair needs such strong light then it must be the hair shader that is at fault. It is easily possible to produce blonde hair that works in more normal light levels.


randym77 ( ) posted Sun, 23 December 2012 at 7:31 AM

I don't think it's "at fault" so much as it's meant for the old type of  Poser lighting. Dynamic hair shaders just look so different under different lighting.  This isn't really an issue with painted hair textures.  Which means hybrid styles (part transmapped, part dynamic) or dynamic hair with a painted skullcap can look quite odd under the Envirosphere.

I can make dynamic hair brighter, but then it looks odd in dimmer light, and it loses those rippling highlights when it moves.

I guess my expectations might be a bit distorted by living in the Poserverse so long.  The old style hair and textures pretty much look the same under all kinds of lighting.  Hair does tend to look very shiny in bright sunlight, but skin does tend to wash out.  Still, it seems like it might be possible to adjust skin, hair, and lighting so they all look decent.

 

 


Believable3D ( ) posted Sun, 23 December 2012 at 9:57 AM

Dadt, let's remember that this is about what randym is after with his hair renders. He basically wants a blown-out look on the dynamic hair and nothing else. If we had item-specific lighting, this could be easily achieved.

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RedPhantom ( ) posted Sun, 23 December 2012 at 2:32 PM
Site Admin

Something I noticed was that if I attatched  an image to the hair node once and it seemed less suseptable to light changes. I haven't had much chance to test this yet though.


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bagoas ( ) posted Sun, 23 December 2012 at 3:48 PM

There is no 'fault' or 'good'. If we want things to be compatible, we must agree on a light level we can consider as 'standard'. In real life we have this, at day the sun shines on all of us the same way. In Poserverse we must find a standard ourselves.  


raven ( ) posted Mon, 24 December 2012 at 12:08 PM

Hey dadt, nice Peggy!



dadt ( ) posted Tue, 25 December 2012 at 6:35 AM

file_489864.jpg

Thanks raven, hi-de-hi and happy Ghristmas.


raven ( ) posted Tue, 25 December 2012 at 10:48 AM

Ho-de-ho, and happy chrimbo to you too :)



dadt ( ) posted Tue, 25 December 2012 at 1:26 PM

file_489866.jpg

The image in my last post is not totally OT, it includes another example of hair room magic.


vilters ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 5:28 AM

file_489879.jpg

Click to enlarge : Here a hair I use a lot. Bb's sphere with One infinite light at 75% (The picture on the BB sphere is dark, so I increased the Infinite light back to 75%)

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estherau ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 5:31 AM

that hair looks very good!

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vilters ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 5:44 AM

Ha, thank you Ester.
You should see the figure by now.... :-)
I have to dress her up :-) :-) :-)

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!


mysticeagle ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 10:14 AM · edited Wed, 26 December 2012 at 10:17 AM

a long time ago now, i had an idea for a skull cap with preset hair growth zones on it, eg, fringe, front side L, front side R, side R, side L, top, back etc etc, essentially a predivided skull cap , the idea being you could just select the hair zone in the hair room and grow your guide hairs, anyone think there would be a demand for a prop like this, and what do you see the problems that may arise ? apart from the fact that everyone would want a different template lol

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randym77 ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 10:45 AM

Quote - a long time ago now, i had an idea for a skull cap with preset hair growth zones on it, eg, fringe, front side L, front side R, side R, side L, top, back etc etc, essentially a predivided skull cap , the idea being you could just select the hair zone in the hair room and grow you guide hairs, anyone thing there would be a demand for a prop like this, and what do you see the problems that may arise ?

I would LOVE something like that. 

A big problem with the skullcaps currently available is that they are way too high-res to be ideal in the hair room.  Dynamic hair collisions only work well if the objects involved are relatively low-resolution.  Poser just can't handle it otherwise. 

Many skullcaps have thousands of polys.  The Poser 6 skullcaps cut that drastically, down to about 200 polys (about the tenth the number in the Poser 5 skullcaps, IIRC).  Today's technology would probably allow a bit more than that, but still...low-res is where it's at, for dynamic hair.

Having different growth zones would be great, because then you could have higher resolution (and hence higher hair density) where it mattered.  Along the hairline, for example, where you can actually see the strands.  You could also run in a sim on only one or two hair groups (if you're animating).  That would be enough to make it look like the hair is moving like real hair, but reduces the resource load, and would also let you preserve the styling in the other groups.

A couple of tricks that Kirwyn, now not around much, used for his Genesis Hair (before DAZ co-opted the name ;-).  He modeled the skullcaps tilted back 30 degrees, so that the hair would naturally fall back a little, instead of into the figure's face. 

And he designed the skullcaps so they fit just inside the figure's head.  With the skullcap inside in the head, the hair appears to be growing naturally out of the scalp.  (Poser ignores the first part of a hair strand when doing simulation calculations.)

That means you can't texture the skullcap to cover bald spots, but you could add another, visible skullcap later.  (I use 3Dream's universal skullcaps.)

 


mysticeagle ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 10:55 AM

file_489883.jpg

this was the sort of inspiration for the idea, replace the skulls part names with hair growth group names.

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)  6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5  64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
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"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

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randym77 ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 11:41 AM · edited Wed, 26 December 2012 at 11:43 AM

That could work. But what I'd really like to see is a band of higher resolution mesh along the hairline, over the forehead and along the temples.  So you could make the hair very dense there, and avoid that wiry Barbie look. 

The back looks good.  I like the idea of having separate upper and lower groups on the back of the head.  Hair growing from the lower back of the skull isn't very important in most images (though you'd miss it if it weren't there!)  I like the idea of being able to make that coarser, with fewer vertices, and save resources for more visible hair over it. 

Have you see that "Sexy Manga Dancer" video on YouTube?  He says he used three hair groups, but only ran a simulation on one of them.  You can see that if you look closely.  When the dancer turns her back to the camera, you see a chunk of the hair in back going through her body.  It's dynamic hair, used statically.  With most renders, it wouldn't be noticeable.


mysticeagle ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 11:51 AM

ive just watched it, 65 hours to run the sim, but 1600 frames mind you, amazing the effect though, but that length of sim for most people will have them running to conforming hair and staying there lol

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)  6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5  64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

"I live in an unfinished , poorly lit box, but we call it home"

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Believable3D ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 1:05 PM

I think you nailed it right at the end. Everyone would need several version for different styles.

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mysticeagle ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 1:50 PM

my thought was though, that initially one template could suit many needs, it would just be a matter of styling each growth growth to your desired style, the idea being that all hair grows pretty much the same way, it's just styling that alters most

OS: Windows7 64-bit Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)  6GB Ram
Poser: Poser Pro 2012 SR3.1 ...Poser 8.........Poser5 on a bad day........
Daz Studio Pro 4.5  64bit

Carrara beta 8.5

Modelling: Silo/Hexagon/Groboto V3
Image Editing: PSP V9/Irfanview
Movie Editing. Cyberlink power director/Windows live movie maker

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Believable3D ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 1:54 PM · edited Wed, 26 December 2012 at 1:55 PM

That would be fine if the process of styling in the Hair Room was the same as styling real hair. :)

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bagoas ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 2:56 PM

Interesting idea, mysticeagle!

Any 'standard' sections or groups we can agree on would work, or maybe a standard skull cap with morphs to suit the various figures. Definition of the hair groups should be more or less standard for a hair style irrespective of the figure it is applied to. The hair room uses a different process than a hairdresser, but it is a process nevertheless, and at least the hair room process has a universal basis does not need to deal with differences in natural characteristics of hair.  


randym77 ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 3:45 PM

It doesn't have to be perfect for every situation.  Basically, anything would be an improvement over current options. 

And you could make other versions later.  Maybe higher and lower res versions.  Middle part vs. side part.  A skullcap meant for styling hair vs. one meant for dynamics. 

Maybe even skullcaps meant to be used together.  Kirwyn did that with one version of his Genesis hair.  He had two skullcaps, one inside the other.  For a distance render,  you could use just one for faster processing.  For a close up, you'd use both.


mathman ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 3:46 PM · edited Wed, 26 December 2012 at 3:46 PM

Quote - I have used nothing but dynamic hair since it was first introduced, but I very seldom drape it. For shorter styles it is not needed and if used the hair droops and loses the styling.

This is a typical hair of mine.

 dadt ----

Is this the Elizabeth Warden character from "Keeping up Appearances" ? .... sure does look like her.


mathman ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 3:49 PM

Quote - About the best I can do using Shena Hair.

Any ideas for speeding up the render of dynamic hair?

I'm using PP2012 and have most of the render settings at pretty low values as I do a lot of "quick renders" to get the look right before doing any detailed ones. I often turn radiosity off for transmapped hair, but doing that for dynamic hair really kills the look. Any ideas?

Thanks

 

Mark@poser - most of the dynamic hair images in this thread look very thin. Yours is an exception, it looks fantastic.


RedPhantom ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 4:26 PM
Site Admin

I use the same basic groups for most of my hairstyles. Top left and right, Middle left and right, Bottom left and right,top back bottom back, and bangs. It works for most handing down styles. Styles pulled in other way, such as a ponytail might need other groups.  I had toyed with the idea of having a starter base hair with short hair already grown on it that I could lengthen and style but I've never used the one I made.


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dadt ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 5:18 PM

Mathman---Right first time!


Believable3D ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 5:31 PM

RedPhantom, I've tried various options (tho with less success than you so far as styling goes), and I have become less than enamoured with having a whole bunch of groups. They're just too hard to manage cooperatively, for me. I'm leaning more and more toward having 2-3 groups per hairstyle, on a low-poly skullcap.

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RedPhantom ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 6:22 PM
Site Admin

Believable, I use more because my mind gets overwelmed and confused by larger groups. I am intrigued by the low poly cap. I've been using ones at about 1000 polys. I reduced one to around 200 and have not seen much differrence except the sim time dropped from 2:46 to 0:46 (this is minutes not seconds) on a single, simple group. It might be easier for me to handle larger groups if I have less strands to look at.


Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10


randym77 ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 7:24 PM

The dynamic hair tutorials that used to be at Studio Verite used a skullcap with only 8 polys.  That might be taking it a little too far, but it didn't look bad.


Believable3D ( ) posted Wed, 26 December 2012 at 7:45 PM

60-100 polys sounds right to me. Leave them unpopulated for styling, and it's easy to work with.

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Software: Windows 10 Professional/Poser Pro 11/Photoshop/Postworkshop 3


mathman ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 12:29 AM

Quote - Mathman---Right first time!

 

That is brilliant. Don't suppose you have the morph, do you ? :):)


dadt ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 2:21 AM

Sorry, like all my characters I use a lot of custom made morphs (Morph-brush,magnets,modelling program) plus custom textures including bump and displacement.

 


dadt ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 2:32 PM

While browsing through this thread again I noticed that on many of the hairs shown the lower edge of the hairstyle faded away, spoiling the realism in my opinion. This set me wondering how much effect the tip width setting had.

Some tests with a few hairs on a sphere showed that the hair was evenly tapered from root to tip which is ok if you are using the hair room to grow a grass prop but hair does not taper, and even the tips are cut off square by the hairdressers scissors.

 In the past I had just accepted that the tip width would be less than the root width, probably because that is the default when you create a new hair, but a few test renders have convinced me that the root and tip should be the same.

 


dadt ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 2:38 PM

file_489915.jpg

These renders all have root width of .8 with tip widths of .2, .5 and .8 from left to right, and show the effect I am talking about.

I now have a lot of work ahead going through all my character and hair libraries resetting the values, doing test renders and new thumbnails


mathman ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 3:02 PM

dadt, thanks anyway.

Maybe you should do an animation of Elizabeth spilling tea on Hyacinth's Grade 1 Axminster carpet .... :)

...or maybe breaking one of Hyacinth's Royal Doultons with the hand-painted periwinkles !!


dadt ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 3:29 PM · edited Thu, 27 December 2012 at 3:30 PM

LOL--- I have enough problems getting good renders without venturing into the extra problems of animation.

Perhaps when I get a faster rig, going to knock together a 8 processor set-up in the new year to replace my twin set-up.


CaptainMARC ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 3:31 PM

Quote - While browsing through this thread again I noticed that on many of the hairs shown the lower edge of the hairstyle faded away, spoiling the realism in my opinion. This set me wondering how much effect the tip width setting had.

Some tests with a few hairs on a sphere showed that the hair was evenly tapered from root to tip which is ok if you are using the hair room to grow a grass prop but hair does not taper, and even the tips are cut off square by the hairdressers scissors.

 In the past I had just accepted that the tip width would be less than the root width, probably because that is the default when you create a new hair, but a few test renders have convinced me that the root and tip should be the same.

 

That's a very interesting point. I'll have to try that.


Believable3D ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 5:33 PM

Quote -  In the past I had just accepted that the tip width would be less than the root width, probably because that is the default when you create a new hair, but a few test renders have convinced me that the root and tip should be the same.

Good observation, dadt. I've been wondering along those lines myself. I'm not sure there should be no taper whatsoever, but I've slowly been bringing the root and tip widths into closer relation to one another too.

______________

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RedPhantom ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 6:57 PM
Site Admin

If you look at hair under a microscope (we all have one of those right 😉) you'll see each strand is tapered. How much in relation to the root, I can't say. The problem isn't the tapering one the strands. It is becaues the hair does not all end at the same spot. When you create hair each strand it the exact same length as the rest (unless you set the length variance) so when you bend the strands down the strands on the top of the head don't reach as far as the ones down near the bottom edge. So there is in all reality less hair strand at the bottom on the hair than at the top so it should look thinner. You can use the styling tool to lengthen the strands higher up i you are wanting a more consistant thickness. In the image you can see the difference in the think ness of the 2 styles. Both have the same hair density and the same strand thickness at root and tip. In the second row of images I've selected all the strands in one group so you can see the ends. As you can see some ends only come half way down to where the others do.


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Believable3D ( ) posted Thu, 27 December 2012 at 9:35 PM

We need a scissors tool. :)

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bagoas ( ) posted Fri, 28 December 2012 at 3:35 AM

The root-tip ratio depends on the haircut. If my hair is 20 cm with tip/root ratio 0.4, and I cut it to 10 cm, the root/tip ratio will be 0.7, assuming smooth taper. The follicle just pushes out hair at a constant rate and diameter. I think there is natural wear/aging that  makes older hair, i.e hair further away from the follicle, thinner than newer hair.

As for length variation: this of couse entirly is down to haircut. If the hair is uncut, (Tyler as Simson) the natural process of breaking will take care of a sort of logaritmic? (not sure here without having done the math) distribution of hair length. 


templargfx ( ) posted Sun, 06 January 2013 at 8:53 PM

Are there any long dynamic hair sets available for v4?  purchase or not? I cannot find any (other than the california one)

TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
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randym77 ( ) posted Sun, 06 January 2013 at 9:19 PM

I always thought the reason hair strands were tapered in the hair room is because it's impossible to get realistic hair density without choking Poser.  So to get decent scalp coverage, you make the strand wide at the top.

But that makes the hair look like a bad wig.  Making it thinner at the ends makes it looks less fake. 


RedPhantom ( ) posted Mon, 07 January 2013 at 7:50 PM
Site Admin

templargfx, I'm hoping to have one available with in the next few days as a freebie. I need to get it packaged up and approved. You can check my first post on page one of this thread for a preview.


Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader Monster of the North and The Shimmering Mage

Today I break my own personal record for the number of days for being alive.
Check out my store here or my free stuff here
I use Poser 13 and win 10


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