I don't want to be a stick in the mud, but is it me or have prices on many Poser items, both here and in other sites, gone up exponentially? It seems that suddenly items that might have gone for $7 or $8 a year or two ago are now going for $14 or $16. Don't get me wrong, vendors can charge what they want, but I've dramatically cut back on my budget. And, hey, maybe it's just me.

Doug

Prices for Poser product were very low and are now climbing to a more sustainable level in my opinion. 

Compare Poser stuff which is a hobby market mainly with models built for 3dsmax which may be commercial sales and you see that discrepancies.

I use mainly freestuff or model stuff myself.

Quote - Prices for Poser product were very low and are now climbing to a more sustainable level in my opinion. 

Compare Poser stuff which is a hobby market mainly with models built for 3dsmax which may be commercial sales and you see that discrepancies.

I use mainly freestuff or model stuff myself.

 

Agree 100 percent and will add...

there is no wiz bang new poser compatible character to create content for. How many mini skirts does V4 need? If V5 would have loaded into Poser directly I think then situation would be different.

Because as a result I think a lot of vendors have dropped out and there are fewer vendors (less competition)  Go back and count how many texture sets you could find for the Marie Antonette gown for V4 and A4. Probably 10 or 15. Now it is a big deal if a hot selling clothes items gets 3 addon texture sets. Plus with the economy being what it is the unit sales have probably dropped. So instead of selling 1,000 of a given item at 8 bucks, the vendors have to rasie their prices to reflect the same income plus inflation on only selling say 600 of a given item.

Lastly in my opinion and I will agree, there is one other popular store that seems to have raised their prices more dramacticly then say here as a comparison, even if the prices here have increased some.

Agree with Mark and Grichter.  I used to make textures but - if you do it without using a premade base, premade make up etc, it's a lot of hard work for little reward.  IMO, the abundance of resource kits killed the market by driving prices though the floor and giving creators little incentive.

When I start selling stuff again, it'll be models, not textures.  Models generally have a longer shelf life and a higher percieved value.  And, as yet, there are no resource kits for making up models to sell from pre made pieces.  Yes, you can buy greebles and all other sorts of detailing but AFAIK, they're not for redistribution.  

Agree 100 percent and will add... Grichter is 110% correct it's leading to drop out. Personally very close to that myself right now. Hence a question I ask a lot is what can we all do, so that both seller and artist still get to enjoy stuff. My feeling is higher prices don't help artist or seller. But instead support the people who support the makers. So more freebies less product, more collaboration with other makers, help more folks and try to hang on until things improve.

Quote - I don't want to be a stick in the mud, but is it me or have prices on many Poser items, both here and in other sites, gone up exponentially? It seems that suddenly items that might have gone for $7 or $8 a year or two ago are now going for $14 or $16. Don't get me wrong, vendors can charge what they want, but I've dramatically cut back on my budget. And, hey, maybe it's just me.

Doug

I don't think they've really gone but up, but you need to remember one thing: in this economic climate, the vendors costs could have very well gone up and we all know that gets passed on to the consumer.

Laurie

There have been a number of new sites in the last few years that to me look like vendors trying to do their own distribution and cut out the middlemen. Thats a tough route to take since the hosting costs, advertising and administration all have a cost. They do seem to be keeping prices down though.

Yes, prices have gone up at various sites. Being a vendor, I always keep an eye on prices and what they do at various websites. Price have gone up here, because of a new policy and it depends on the content sold how much the price has been raised. That is not a vendors choice, that is Rendo's choice and imo it's a bad one.

Prices at the other big sites have gone up as well, RDNA has seen a slight increase, while DAZ has raised prices by 10-25%. I've seen items their priced at such prices that I wonder if even anyone wants to pay those.

At the other end, I've noticed that while price go up, you get less bang for your money. A lot of venders do include less then they used to in a product. Also what I see a lot fo top vendors do is making variations on content. Same base, but 2-3 variations clearly derived from the same base. Everything is slowly starting to look the same, even in a vendors catalog. It used to be if I want a certain clothing item, I could pick 10-15 vendors and make my choice. Now I can pick 5-10 vendors, but each of them will have 2-3 items that look about the same. I'm not sure if that's a wise move.

Then there's quality, on the whole, it's getting less. There used to be a rise in quality, now there slowly is a decline.

Combine all these factors and add a saturated market to it and it's no wonder vendors don't sell as much as they do. The main thing is that while there are many things vendors could make that haven't been done before, we mostly only see the same things released we've seen before. A lot of vendors have lost creativity and due to the way the market used to work, they've become lazy. Now things are changing and they can't seem to get out of the mode they're in. Even when I see new vendors appear, I see them creating what has been done a million times before. With a few exceptions of course.

Lastly there's the economy, but you can't really blame that one for all of the above problems and to be honest, the economy has been bad for about 3 years now.

In short..... I pay more for less, get less quality and I've got everything that's being released in my runtimes already..... 10's of times.... so why in the world would I buy it at all?

But..... The last and single biggest issue is and many vendors are not realising that or taking it into account is that the poser user base is slowly but surely decreasing. It's not growing as it used to be and with the arrival of DS and Genesis, the whole scene has changed. There is no lack of new Poser figures, a few excellent ones have been released, but they're just not as versatile as Genesis is. Some of the are really nice, but they lack the innovation Poser users are looking for. What Poser needs to survive is either having Genesis working in Poser without the need of some plugin that's hit and miss or a new figure that's about the same as Genesis is. Lookinmg at the history of Poser, the latter ain't going to happen, all that Poser every gives us are terrible looking figures. Sorry to say so, time to fire all these modelers and get a good one, but with the current economy, that's not going to happen.

There is still a market for current poser figures, but it's not what it used to be. Instead of vendors massively surrporting a nwelt released poser figure, they keep on doing what they're doing and slowly but surely everyone looses out. There needs to be a radical change of thinking if the poser vendors making clothing, hair, textures and so on want to survive. Stop whining about how Genesis destroys the market..... stop releasing stuff for V4/V5, we've seen it all before and start supporting figures like My Michelle (that one comes to mind now) instead. For goodness sake take a chance..... you need to break out of the comfort zone..... get creative again.

Wow!!! Well said aeilkema.

My prices have not gone up for over 5 years now.

I also include more and more things into my sets so there is even more value to the set.

It is a shame we cannot really raise prices without people making a big deal about it. It's like the one industry that people expect to go down in price while the rest of the world gets more expensive.

I agree for the most part.

I do not care about Genesis at all.
The file sizes, the pollution, the errors in the rigging, mesh, texture.

I really do not understand how people can be so "hyped" about Genesis.

But I agree that Poser has to come with some inovative figures in its next release.
Sydney, Jessy and Alyson are not that great at all.
OK.
Less errors then Genesis, but they just do not look good.
And they probably never will look good.

Next Poser needs some "close the real life" beauty figures.
With a closet full of every day life clothing, hair and shoes to build a user base.

When they will become popular by their use?
Then the content creators will pop in and take over.

But they will have to beat V4 AND Genesis in one shot.
And that is pretty-pretty hard to do.

Problem will be : We will "again" get the same T-shirts and Mini skirts we all have . . . . . . . . .

Just my 2 cents.

I also include more and more things into my sets so there is even more value to the set. Which IMHO is is the right thing to do! It's like the one industry that people expect to go down in price while the rest of the world gets more expensive. I'm less sure about that, but I certainly think as customers we are really lucky. Theres not many markets out there where we get such an direct input into the design process Or peer reviews which can make/break a product. That I don't mind so much. But I think it's unfair when an opinion can trounce any form of quantifiable skill or experience. I really do not understand how people can be so "hyped" about Genesis. Same here, though personally don't have much interest in morphs, characters etc. I simply use or make whats needed to do the job.

Great information. I'm not aware of the politics among the various vender sites; however, I felt that the initial release of Genesis figures strictly for DS went a long way in contributing to the problem. As a Poser user, I felt consciously excluded, a kind of "go away, boy, you bother me." I get that DAZ wants everyone to use DS, but to actually try to force people to use it seemed a bit too arrogant and presumptuous. 

Of course, both DAZ and Renderosity have their member deals -- Platinum Club and Prime -- but if you crunch the numbers, neither is much of a bargain unless you buy a lot of product and that, of course, is the idea. 

I'll pay six, seven, eight bucks for a nice item, but when an outfit is going for $16, not happening for me. That's real money.

One of the things that prompted my initial post was a set of 20 poses for V4 selling for close to $8. For poses? Really? I'm sure I'm no different than everyone else; I grab free poses whenever I find them. I don't mind buying them if they're useful and relatively unique. The afore mentioned were not. And I'll admit, maybe I'm over reacting. 

Doug

Daz is perfectly justified in pushing Daz Studio. If I remember correctly Daz Studio came out when there was real doubt that Poser would survive.

As a merchant (and I am not one at the moment) you can try lower price and hope for high volume or plan for fewer sales and go with a higher price. I was happy if my products sold 50+ copies in a year. Now I sell models for the higher end applications where I can get 10 sales a year and make more doing it.

If you want inexpensive stuff then look at a membership of Poserworld.

markschum, please don't get me wrong. Of course DAZ can sell whatever it wants to sell. My point was their sudden shift to DS only with the appearance of V5, et. al. It seemed to be a signal that Poser users were no longer wanted or welcome. They have, of course, changed that approach. 

Doug

DAZ actually make good products at a great price. Try buying anything from TurboSquid of comparable quality at the same price. In my experience, the cost of anything is nearly always related to demand...if something isn't selling, it'll eventually drop in price.

What concerns me more is Smith Micro...Poser 9 is a $300 (Manufacturers retail price) product and still not 64bit...and Poser Pro is...come on, 64bit is a standard and shouldn't need a premium product purchase for a user to gain access to. 64bit isn't a luxury anymore! Even free apps come in 64bit...Blender, oh and DAZ Studio for example.

At Amazon price, Poser 9 is worth it, but not at Smith Micro's price, thats for sure!

Why does that concern me? - well if Smith Micro can misread wider industry trends, how can they understand what there users really need as far as content is concerned??

DAZ certainly dictates the market as far as Poser content is concerned, which should be a long term worry for Smith Micro and Poser.

Quote - As a Poser user, I felt consciously excluded, a kind of "go away, boy, you bother me." I get that DAZ wants everyone to use DS, but to actually try to force people to use it seemed a bit too arrogant and presumptuous. 

I just don't understand this argument, really I don't.

Guess what, you can't play all your old cassette tapes in an ipod, and you can't listen to mp3s on a wind-up gramophone. 

There comes a point where clinging to backward-compatibility makes forward progress impossible. ipods use technology that offers a whole range of advantages over CDs and cassette tapes but it isn't compatible with either of them. That's just the way it is, tough shit.

Does Daz have a duty to slow down the development of their figures and software (or stop it altogether) so that Smith Micro can keep up? Poser has hardly moved at all in a decade, Daz has a duty to their own users to improve their products, both figures and software.

If Poser users feel left out they should be complaining to Smith Micro, not to Daz.

I'll grant that DAZ owes nothing to Poser users. After the initial unveiling of their new line for DS-only, they did introduce the new content for Poser. My point is simply excluding so many Poser users at the beginning could not have been good for DAZ's business (of course, that's just a guess, brooming the Poser users may have been exactly their intent). 

As I've said, I don't know the politics between DAZ and Smith Micro, although I'm certain there is more then enough. And, too, for my current needs V4, M4, et. al. serve my purposes rather well. Moving on to the new generation doesn't seem necessary for me at this time. And, too, I have an abundance of content, more probably than I need. Oddly, the price increases at DAZ and Renderosity have actually given me pause to consider what I do have and how little I need. Besides, as someone already said, how many mini-skirts and T-shirts do we need?

Doug

Quote - .... 64bit is a standard and shouldn't need a premium product purchase for a user to gain access to. 64bit isn't a luxury anymore!...

64 bit is not a standard, it is an option. There are more 32 bit programs still being made than 64 bit ones.

64 Bit does allow you to use more memory, but only offering a 64 bit version excludes anyone with a 32 bit op system.

Anything that could possibly be run in a Virtual Machine on a server, (like Queue Manager), would normally be using the 32bit version as well.

Windows is still available in both 32 and 64 bit versions, and as long as that is the case other programs will be as well.

10.7 Lion was the first major op system to drop 32 bit support, and that caused a few issues to more than a few people.

......................................................................................................................................

As far as the prices for content goes, let them charge whatever they want to. I do not buy much in the way of content anymore, but that is because I am more than capable of making my own. If I see something that is unique, I will get it thou.

There is no reason for me to buy something for a character that I already have, or can easily make or convert to work with another character. How many pairs of pants do you really need for a character?

I do buy new characters as they come out, and will continue to do that to support them by purchasing them if they are reasonably priced. 

There is a lot more work that goes into a character than just making content for one. And ironically many of the characters cost less than some of the content for them.

Some people buy tons of content, others just make what they need and go with that.

Quote - There is a lot more work that goes into a character than just making content for one. And ironically many of the characters cost less than some of the content for them.

Now, isn't that true, I always wondered about that and never buy such items. What's worse is people asking money for additions or plugins for free products, I still can't get that. I'd love to try one of these new free render engines, but paying way too much money for a plugin that imo is grossly overcharged is completely putting me off to do so. If someone takes the time to create something for free and putting in countless of hours for no charge, how in the world can someone else be so selfish and try making money of that selfless effort..... I never understood that and I guess I never will.

Well, back on topic..... I read somewhere that DAZ owes Poser users nothing. Well, I've been around long enough to remember DAZ branching off Zygote and try to stand on their own two legs..... I also know who helped to finance all of that andhelp DAZ to get to the point they still reap the benefits from and I know for a fact that it's wasn't the DS users at all (unless you went from Poser to DS). Very coldhearted to take our money for years and because of it being able to even create DS and then dump us as soon as you don't need us anymore..... that's kind of cruel even. so, don't say DAZ doesn't owe Poser users nothing, while in fact they own everything to them.

Quote - > Quote - .... 64bit is a standard and shouldn't need a premium product purchase for a user to gain access to. 64bit isn't a luxury anymore!...

64 bit is not a standard, it is an option. There are more 32 bit programs still being made than 64 bit ones.

64 Bit does allow you to use more memory, but only offering a 64 bit version excludes anyone with a 32 bit op system.

Anything that could possibly be run in a Virtual Machine on a server, (like Queue Manager), would normally be using the 32bit version as well.

Windows is still available in both 32 and 64 bit versions, and as long as that is the case other programs will be as well.

OK, let me clarify this a little...try picking up (lets say) a new Windows Laptop that isn't 64bit compatible on it's hardware...

Secondly, there is no premium price for 64bit software in the majority of the software industry...in fact most come with 32bit and 64bit compatible versions for one price...be it something free like DAZ Studio, or expensive like Vue. Even 64bit windows gives you the option to still install 32bit aplications within it.The price premium within the computing industry at large (including graphics) for 64bit, is very little, if not nothing.

I'm with you, that 32bit shouldn't be phased out, but it has no need to be as both options can be and is offered by software developers without a premium. I can understand a Pro option offering extras such as weightmapping creation, better renderer, cross application compatability etc, etc, but telling potential customers 64bit software is for the Pro user only...wow, thats like telling me Olive Garden is just for the high fliers because the menu is half written in Italian!

Quote -  Well, back on topic..... I read somewhere that DAZ owes Poser users nothing. Well, I've been around long enough to remember DAZ branching off Zygote and try to stand on their own two legs..... I also know who helped to finance all of that andhelp DAZ to get to the point they still reap the benefits from and I know for a fact that it's wasn't the DS users at all (unless you went from Poser to DS). Very coldhearted to take our money for years and because of it being able to even create DS and then dump us as soon as you don't need us anymore..... that's kind of cruel even. so, don't say DAZ doesn't owe Poser users nothing, while in fact they own everything to them.

I can understand your sentiment (I still have content in my Runtime huddled in a Zygote folder :P), but I suspect DAZ as the leading content provider, knew they could add new and better technology to their products, and the only way forward was to create a front end for that in DAZ Studio. I would blame eFrontier, Smith Micro or any other owner of Poser for not doing that for their customers in the first place.

Now Poser has stiff competition in DAZ Studio, it can only be better for all of us.

The prices will achieve a level that the current market will bear. That "current market" changes. As it gets bigger, prices gown down. When it gets smaller, prices will go up because not as many units can be sold. (There is no per-unit cost to consider in manufacturing in regards to scale. Being a digital product, it's a one-time manufacturing cost.)

So... Where does that leave the current Poser market? What's happening with Poser is that innovation has seriously erroded its market share.

What should they do in response? Innovate!

But, they have to consider add-ons and 3d content sales, as well. They should be producing content that is compatible not only with Poser, but DS as well, if they're worried, there.

DAZ is a both a manufacturer of a platform and content for that platform. One shouldn't wonder that they seem to have more content for their new platform distribution than legacy or competing platforms...

On prices, in general - Times are tough and people are trying to make their car payments by selling "stuffs" for 3D. Rendo and other distributors and marketplaces have to pay their employees and keep the lights on, too. Things change.

Why pay? It's terribly easy to create 3D objects and textures, yourself. There are plenty of free resources for doing that. Creating "quality" content for yourself is a bit more difficult. But, you can certainly do it, if you take the time to learn how.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to create their own stuff and many people just like working with new products, for the fun of it. That's fine, too. If you're a "Whale" buyer of 3D content at any of these sites, then joining their premium discount club might be a viable option for you.

For myself, the only thing I don't try to do myself is hair. I can't stand modeling hair... I'll buy truly custom morphs, every once-in-awhile, or nice utilities and scripts, but that's about it. I don't think I've bought any clothing in years. The one thing I might consider buying are very detailed custom objects, props, scenes and the like that I would like to muck around with, but don't feel like creating myself.

I agree with Cheers that the competition is better for us. But, I'd like to say that in this particular market, too much competition between leading companies could be worse for us all. Imagine what would happen to the market if Poser and DS content products became completely incompatible because the two main competitors went to war? That would be... hell for users. That's likely why Poser now has hooks that DAZ can reach in order to code their new importer for the Genesis line. Smith Micro worked with DAZ on that and they accomplished it, together. Let's hope that level of "friendly competition" stays the same.

Imo..... lowering prices may have a very good effect in the current state of economy. I made that decision a while back, I know people are having less to spent then they used to and raising my prices wouldn't be doing anyone good at all. Neither would keeping my prices the same, since I know as well as everyone else, my $1 will not get me what it used to get me before. Here in Europe there's a tendecy for a while now..... while prices of gas and electricity have been rising, supermarkets have been lowering their prices and prices of electronics, luxury goods and cars are going down to entice people to still buy.

Poser content are luxury goods, I don't need them to survive, yes I know it's addicting, but still...... As a small vendor I have a few choices, raise prices, do nothing or lower them. I've done the lowering, making sure the prices are very attractive and if you see them you're not going to ask yourself if you can afford them or not. This way over the years I've been able to expand my business. My sales haven't dropped at all, they are very steady and never go below a certain amount and over the last 2 years have become more instead of less. In spite of me lowering my prices at least 50%. Worked out very well and I know what would have happened if I hadn't done that, I would not be selling content anymore, but moved on. This isn't a easy market to survive in and i'm just thankful and grateful that my business has grown over the years. I'm not getting all the support and opportunities that top sellers and the bigger names do get. I don't have all the resources to put into advertising as they can do. As many other small vendors it's a huge struggle to keep the doors open, but it is possible, but not without a drastic change of ways and even then, succes isn't guarenteed.

mo..... lowering prices may have a very good effect in the current state of economy. I made that decision a while back, I'm a great believer in that without a recession :) Seriously though the problem is exactly like you say.. "As a small vendor I have a few choices" and I'm not getting all the support and opportunities that top sellers and the bigger names do get... I don't have all the resources to put into advertising as they can do. Theres the rub the little guys don't have the same level playing field. Especially lately as sometimes you're not even allowed too tell other artists what you have. If they can't see it, how can they buy it! Which regardless if you use studio or poser doesn't bode well for a creative future. It risks leading to stores and gallerys full of identikit bland, boring dross. Basically 'fuzzy felt' with bigger t*ts. Thats not good for anyone, big or small and most importantly the artists. So instead of restricting the small folks, the big sites should embrace all the innovation and knowledge we bring.

Couldn't agree more and I'm very sad to see that the only major store that allowed vendors some freedom has now decided to become like all of the rest. Of course any store can do as they please, but to blame others for their lack of sales is beyond me..... I wonder if they ever wondered if just people perhaps aren't as interested in what they sell as much as they like to believe? Instead they decide to blame the little guys. It's just going to be even harder to reach other artist and in the end everyone will miss out.

but to blame others for their lack of sales is beyond me.....

Yep, especially for some places (not here I hasten to add) it's been the community that made them*.* Yet now we're the horrible beastly people? How does that work out?

in the end everyone will miss out.

Yep it's gonna hurt everyone. Though what do us customers know about this stuff. We're just the brain dead zombie smucks that'll give our undying loyalty for ever. Like flip :)

It's simple the more a company mistreats customers, the more likely they'll jump.

If I like something and it is a decent price I will buy it.

If I think something is a bit on the high side I will wait for a sale.

All the best.

LROG

I wonder if one reason prices are increasing is that customers have been trained to wait for a sale.  Unless I need it right away, I generally hold out for 50% off; at DAZ, you can often get a much bigger discount than that.  So if you have something you're willing to sell for $10, price it at $20.

I have wondered about that, if vendors overprice their goods so they can discount them and still get what they wanted out of them. Of course, that's a strategy that can easily backfire if the higher prices drive away buyers. For years, my morning routine was to visit several poser product sites to see what was new and check the freebies. Now, I visit those sites maybe once a week. I have a massive amount of stuff in my wishlist here. Now that they're giving us a wishlist total, I divided by the number of items and came up with a average of $9.37. That's pricey from my vantage point. Maybe I'm just being cheap, but pushing ten bucks an item seems a little steep.

Doug

Quote - I have wondered about that, if vendors overprice their goods so they can discount them and still get what they wanted out of them. Of course, that's a strategy that can easily backfire if the higher prices drive away buyers. For years, my morning routine was to visit several poser product sites to see what was new and check the freebies. Now, I visit those sites maybe once a week. I have a massive amount of stuff in my wishlist here. Now that they're giving us a wishlist total, I divided by the number of items and came up with a average of $9.37. That's pricey from my vantage point. Maybe I'm just being cheap, but pushing ten bucks an item seems a little steep.

 

Doug

Oh, I didn't realise that they added that feature now. My average is $10.32, that's a bit high indeed.

Brokerages and resellers take their share of each sale. A normal reseller percentage is 30%, paying the vendor 70%. Several (but not all) brokerages take 50%.

Also, some sites have driven down costs to acquire your business - especially since the economy hit the dirt in 2008, setting expectations of $1.99 per product. It is hard to sustain a product on that. Those $1.99 sites are invariably brokerages that work on volume. That isn't really good for the artist.

Piracy also has its influence.

If you buy directly from the vendor, they get 100% of the sale plus they can make new products and let you know about it - rather than their stuff being drowned in a sea of other stuff.

Everyone likes free or low priced stuff.  But it has driven many vendors out of business.

The smartest business route is to have your own site, then sell on one or two "volume" sites and partner sites.

Quote - Brokerages and resellers take their share of each sale. A normal reseller percentage is 30%, paying the vendor 70%. Several (but not all) brokerages take 50%.

Also, some sites have driven down costs to acquire your business - especially since the economy hit the dirt in 2008, setting expectations of $1.99 per product. It is hard to sustain a product on that. Those $1.99 sites are invariably brokerages that work on volume. That isn't really good for the artist.

Piracy also has its influence.

If you buy directly from the vendor, they get 100% of the sale plus they can make new products and let you know about it - rather than their stuff being drowned in a sea of other stuff.

Everyone likes free or low priced stuff.  But it has driven many vendors out of business.

The smartest business route is to have your own site, then sell on one or two "volume" sites and partner sites.

I'd love to have my own site with a full store running, but that takes quite some time and effort and there are many obstacles to overcome. How do I get customer directed to my website, how much traffic can I expect, what cms will I use, what payment systems to have, how much will I end up paying for hosting and so on and so on.

For a well known vendor as you are this is a great solution, for us, the little guys this the sure route to go bankrupt, running my own will cost so much time and so little in return that I will not even get back the investment made.

The only options I do have is either sell at the big established sites, like Rendo or team up with a vendor that is well known, but that's even harder to do then running my own website.

So, you advice is great for someone who has a large customer base, but for the little vendors, forget it.......

As for the $1.99 guys..... I'm one of them.... I sell at a low price, with a relative high volume, it's the only way I can complete with the big guys. If I price my items the same way as the big guys do, I'm going to loose. If my policy is hurting them in any way, so be it, their high prices do the same to me, I cannot compete with that. I can price my items $10 or more, they're worth it. But.... with those prices a customer has to choose....what will he spent his budget on and from experience I know, I'm always on the loosing side. If I price my items at $1.99 a customer doesn't have to make a choice, he can buy my item and someone else's item, it's as simple as that.  The other way to compete is to create bundles, like I do here at Rendo. While well known vendor X create a set of clothing and easily sell it for $10 or more, I almost have to create a line of clothing and sell it for $10 or more to get the customers buying.

I cannot do this full time, it's impossible for me, I cannot put out the high volumes the well know vendors do, don't have time to do so. I cannot build a huge catalog as fast the people who spent all their time on doing so. I've got almost 60 products now and it took me years to get that far. Then I look at some of the bug vendors and they easily create 4 items or more each month, how can I with limited time compete with that? and you even advise that I put lot's of the little time I do have into creating and maintaining my own website? That's not realistic at all. The only way I can compete is bundle stuff at low prices or sell $1.99 items. People will buy those and I'm glad thay do.

I don't agree that low priced items drive vendors out of business, they're the opportunity to at least have a business. The only thing that really drive vendors out of business are vendors putting lot's of money into advertising and sites that do not allow vendors to promote their items fairly. The thing that drives vendors out of business is all the attentions that big/well known vendors get at the various websites. Small vendors are not put into the spot light, they do not get the benefits, they don't have lot's of money to promote their items. While some vendors demand. are given and get all the attention, all the others suffer from it.

So, forgive me for pricing my items $1.99, but as long as I'm treated as a 3rd class vendor and am not getting the same chance as others who control the market, I'll be doing so in order to survive.

Quote - I don't agree that low priced items drive vendors out of business, they're the opportunity to at least have a business. The only thing that really drive vendors out of business are vendors putting lot's of money into advertising and sites that do not allow vendors to promote their items fairly. The thing that drives vendors out of business is all the attentions that big/well known vendors get at the various websites. Small vendors are not put into the spot light, they do not get the benefits, they don't have lot's of money to promote their items. While some vendors demand. are given and get all the attention, all the others suffer from it.

So, forgive me for pricing my items $1.99, but as long as I'm treated as a 3rd class vendor and am not getting the same chance as others who control the market, I'll be doing so in order to survive.

Low prices have an effect on customer expectations, and that contributes to vendors not being able to survive. It isn't the only reason though. If you recall from mid 2008, a lot of vendors just gave up. That was economy + deep discounting + major changes at several brokerages that were hostile to vendors like you and me. One major vendor that everyone knows saw their incomes drop 80% overnight after one major change at one brokerage.

Brokerages are their own businesses, and most vendors are suppliers at their mercy. It doesn't have to be that way though.

It's not for no reason I'm mainly selling at Content Paradise, they've got no dumb policies that get in the way of selling, yet provide a great venue for me to sell at. i'm still selling here at Rendo by customers request, but I mainly bundle items to give a customer still a good value, I'm not happy with Rendo's pricing and other policies, but bundling seems to work fine, if that wasn't possible, I wouldn't even try.

I was at a different well know brokerage before and I hated it there, some of the demands were just crazy. They changed some major things as well and it just didn't agree with me at all, so I left and ended up at Content Paradise, I don't regret going there. OK, I'd love to have my own store, but for me at this moment that's just not possible at all.

You know what I hate most about any brokerage? It's the time it takes to have your products released, it takes so awefully long. My products are tested thoughly and always pass the brokerage testing without a problem, but still it takes ages to get something released. That's the cool thing about CP, make it, test it, release, not doing everything twice.

Attached Link: Content Creators Guild

That's not the worst for me, though it rates up there. If processing is fast and there aren't a lot of specialized rules, it doesn't make a huge difference. That said, if I cannot control the release of my products, I can't optimize sales, or really plan holiday releases.

I suggest you also post your releases on Content Creator's Guild which has a free forum for product releases. It doesnt matter where you are selling them. CCG was set up because there are no real open venues any more.

I think sites like the Content Creators Guild, free3dcontent and totalCG are totally noble endevours. Though question for me is time, as a creator it's hard enough to find time to do the same commonsense path that aeilkema takes. As a customer I'm too often time poor, and sometimes too frigging lazy to go to more than 2 or 3 sites. If other folks are the same, the issue is going to be getting good levels of visitors. BTW - thats not a critique but I think something that has be considered. Also if the big boys are claiming that indies are (partly) responsible for the loss in corporate profits. Then it's it's not in the biggies best interest to let the customers know these places even exist. Indeed I recall chikako's invites being deleted at another site. So fair play to rendo for allowing it. What the solution is I don't know. But I think the way things are going 2013 is gonna be a unlucky number for a lot of little players. Which in turn isn't good for the artists.

As a customer, I'm the same as you and from what I've learned from interaction with my customers most are about the same. A lot prefer to buy at one or two sites only. Personally I used to visit RDNA, DAZ, Rendo and CP on a daily basis. After RDNA did their major revamp, I stopped visiting, it's so not my taste. No, it's no the color schemes as here, it's the whole atmosphere the site breathes out. With the arrival of Genesis and DAZ focussing more and more on slutwear, I started visiting less and less, but still bought once in a while. But with their recent hostility against poser users and on top of that even a huger hostility against non DAZ vendors, DAZ is off the list as well. So, only 2 major stores less.

Besides these major players, there are only 3 other sites I do visit.... of course PoserWorld, then there's Xurge's website and finally Poserdirect, but that one least of all, but still it get's some of my attention. 

That's it, the rest I don't have time for and most of them I have visited do not offer anything else as the 5 sites I visit do and most important, they do not compete price wise at all. I can buy the same kind of items here or at CP, at better prices then at most indy stores, so tell me whay should I, as a customere, take all the effort to look up these sites if they have nothing special to offer?

Most of them do not have the quality Xurge offers, so why pay for less quality at same prices? None of them offers the awesome special deals CP has, so why pay more for the same? As customer I'm very simple..... if a indy can't compete why bother to visit them? If they cannot offer outstanding quality or something I can't find here or at CP, why even bother? There's nothing to entice me to buy, since a lot of the indy sites sell there items here or at CP at the same price or better prices, so for me as a customer visiting all kinds of places is a waste of time. While some vendors may not like the $1.99 deals and such, customers do..... people spent big money at the FFB.... at the PC.... when Rendo has their 50% off coupons... at the yearly RealDeal sale and so on. We as vendors can cry havoc all we want, but that's the way it is, has been for many years and will be so for as long as this market will survive. As long as it's the case, I'm going to ride that wave, no use to try to resist it and spent lot's of time on doing so, the customers simply will not be enticed by me doing the same old all over again and neither would I do as a customer.

I concur with the last few posts.  I used to use Daz3d and only purchased from there but I have not purchased a single item for almost a year.  I visit Renderosity on a daily basis and tend to look at RDNA about once a week which is usually because I have seen something I like in their weekly newsletter.

I have purchased from Xurge and Power fusion3D but these were isolated purchases and well over 90% of my purchases are here at Rendo.

I am I prime member and I often wait until something is on sale, then again I have paid $25 or more for a product but only if it is of very high quality or reasonable quality with a lot in the package.  My average spend on an item must be around $10, some of it is what many regard as 'slutwear' but I only usually buy an item if I can adapt or retexture it to be a convincing Sci-Fi outfit.  By far my biggest outlay goes on scenes, props and materials as I like to modify much of what I use.

I have no interest in being a vendor and therefore I am happy to buy from those more skillful than me.

I do understand that things must be tight for many in the present financial climate but I do feel that, as a hobby, 3D art has to be one of the cheapest around once you have afforded the intial outlay of a half decent PC.

Mrsparky's observation that little players may get hurt this year seems to be spot-on; however, I thing if the smaller venbdors are hurt, the big corporate sites will be hurt, too. There are major vendors, but can they sustain the profit levels the big sites need to survive? All those little vendors, many of them filling a specific niche, help the big sites offer variety as well as a steady stream of products. It would seem to me, as a non-vendor, that it is important for everyone if prices are reasonably set and if the variety of products offered serve all of the users and not just a few.

When I buy something, I'm also looking on how I can adapt it with new textures etc.

That's why I wished PA's would do a material zones render in their promos.

All the best.

LROG

dhawk0948 - you are 100% correct there. Especially about everyone, big or small, is gonna get hit. Thing is some of the big boys are appearing to lay the blame for poor sales squarely at the little guys. As well as being ethically unfair, it's also BS. No way can small sites - even if you combined them - make enough cash/traffic to seriously threaten the larger one. Its also something that most artists know isn't true. Customers ain't stupid, and they don't like it when companies start telling porkies, it risks damaging two simple concepts ..trust and respect. Say for example you where wrongly accused in a supermarket of breaking some eggs. If you then saw a shoplifter legging out the fire exit with a widescreen TV. While you might not hold the door open or get one yourself, you'd hardly be likely to call security. Rough analogy there, but I know folks who usually are rock solid about stuff like reporting infringements or sharing, but now they say stuff the big site.

For what it's worth, even daz is starting to abandon 1.99 for PC members... now things are starting to get priced at 2.99 over there.

Wow, that's a big move. I'm sure the small vendors are to blame for that or is it just that many pc members stopped being a member because of lack of interesting releases?

Quote - For what it's worth, even daz is starting to abandon 1.99 for PC members... now things are starting to get priced at 2.99 over there.

That's not true.  They are still having the usual $1.99 items.

They have made some changes.  There's now a "value priced" category.  It's $1.99 at first, then the price goes up to $2.99.  Items are available to non-PC members for much higher prices.  (This in addition to the $1.99 items, not in place of them.)

I think they are trying to add value to the Platinum Club because the changes to the store really gutted it.  The monthly voucher can't be used on anything but DAZ Originals, it has to be used all at once, and you have to look up the voucher code and remember to apply it manually, when it used to be automatic.  I usually don't use my voucher any more, because I rarely buy anything that qualifies under the new rules. 

I was going to quit the PC, but DAZ made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  They gave me an annual for free.  ($29.95 for an annual membership and $30 of items for free.  Had to be DAZ Originals, but $1.99 items were included.)

Missed that offer, so I'm giving up my PC membership when it expires in a few days... if it hasn't already.

Yes they still have 1.99 items, but the 2.99 stuff seems like a step towards a more expensive direction and trying to force people to buy something they might not want so they'll save a buck.

Poserworld is better value, good quality items as well. Steve and Allen have been running it for years, well outlived other subscription places like poserstyle.

Apparently, the offer only went out to a select few.  They seemed to be people who were long-term members who opted out of the PC.  So who knows, maybe you'll get it once you cancel.  (You have to cancel it according to their directions, or you will be auto-renewed.  Even if you remove your credit card or even if the credit card is expired.  Which I think is pretty obnoxious, but that's another issue.  Also, if you disable the auto-renewal before your membership is expired, you lose the rest of your subscription.)

The new value category has items for $9.99 or less, available to everyone.  For PC members, the items are $1.99 for the first two weeks, then they go up to $2.99.  DAZ says these will not replace the traditional $1.99 items; in fact, they promise more $1.99 items each month than there were before.

It does seem like it's an incentive to buy now.  Rosity does the same with their Prime items.  Makes sense.  There's little incentive to buy the regular $1.99 items before you need them, since they're always there and the price only goes down, never up.

I certainly don't expect vendors to give their stuff away. But I have noticed a couple of leading vendors jacking up prices in the last few months. Maybe their sales are down or maybe they've gotten greedy. Either way, they've lost me as a buyer. A few weeks back, one of my favorite vendors had a half-price sale on their entire store. When I looked at their items in my wishlist, I realized at half price they were still $7 or $8. I bought nothing. In fact, since the first of the year I've only bought three items and haven't spent $20 yet.

The thing is, I imagine some of the biggest vendors sell in high volume. If they're getting 70%, a popular item priced at $16 would net them $11.20. Sell 500 or 1000 -- and I'm sure some of the biggest names do exactly that much volume or more -- and you're looking at $5000 to $10,000 per item. A couple of items a month and life is good. That, of course is only true of the big names, but they are big names because they produce highly-reliable, high-versatile items that people want.

If I had the talent and patience -- which I don't -- I'd love to be a vendor. I have ideas for items that are needed (IMO) and not available. But, without the requisite talent, I'm at the mercy of vendors. ;-)

Doug

...Maybe their sales are down or maybe they've gotten greedy.... It ain't greed, it's a mix of store policy's and low sales. If you think the $5 and $10 sale only nets the average store $2.50 and $5. It doesn't leave a lot of room, if sales seriously drop and operating costs rise. The options are limited as well, reduce the seller cut, apply extra charges to sellers, or up the minimum selling price. Business wise the latter is fine for things like shopping or gas, because we NEED that, customers have to buy. Whereas Poser stuff is a WANT. So if we raise the prices in a market thats already got poor sales levels it can be counter productive. Thats why I think lower prices and volume sales are a better bet. Reward the customers more as well for supporting the sites as well. I have ideas for items that are needed (IMO) and not available. What sorta things?

I have plennty of sympathy for venders, when times are tough, less sympathy for some of the stores. If I have the choice, I will try to purchase directly from the vender, for a couple of reasons:

1. The vender gets more money for their work.

2. If the vender isn't active any longer, there is a good chance their site isn't, or you can tell from the site.

The second point is important - DAZ will take a third party utility, wrap it up in an installer, place it on their website and forget about it. For me, there is no excuse for a company to leave an aplication or utility within their store, the developer goes AWOL for years, and for it still to be sold, bugs and all!It's not good business practice.

I truelly believe that, the Poser/DAZ asset "market place", is very fair in it's prices, be it DAZ, Rendo, RuntimeDNA or individual vender, when compared to the rest of the industry...even in the current climate.

This business is just a microcosm of the art industry at large - the small artists will always struggle to survive, and the big guys will have their army of helpers as they sip champagne!