@vilters: No embedded deformers!  Thank you sweet baby jesus.

Dawn's starting shape is not my personal ideal for what I want in my female figures, mostly just the shoulder width.  I also like narrower shoulders.  However, as has been pointed out by others, that is what customization is for.  What Dawn IS I find terrific.  She isn't going to be everything to everyone, especially out of the box, but I think she is pretty solid and beautifully set up for customization.  She has some things other figures don't have. I think what she has is going to be the answer to issues many have wished could be addressed, but never dreamed ever would be.  She'll only get better once creative artists get their hands on her.

*edit to change one word. 

Quote - Dawn's starting shape is not my personal ideal for what I want in my female figures, mostly just the shoulder width.  I also like narrower shoulders.  However, as has been pointed out by others, that is what customization is for.  What Dawn IS I find terrific.  She isn't going to be everything to everyone, especially out of the box, but I think she is pretty solid and beautifully set up for customization.  She has some things other figures don't have. I think what she has is going to be the answer to issues many have wished could be addressed, but never dreamed ever would be.  She'll only get better once creative artists get their hands on her.

 

*edit to change one word. 

beautifully said Mab and for a beautiful figure! :) 

Quote - What Dawn IS I find terrific.  She isn't going to be everything to everyone, especially out of the box, but I think she is pretty solid and beautifully set up for customization.   

Nice.  :-) 

I don't know an awful lot about modeling human figures, but I've seen great edge loops and a very pretty face and body shape.  And with the modeler's background, I'm sure Dawn is a solid and versatile figure.  I love the eyelashes and think the breasts are fine.  Boobies come in all shapes and sizes, and Dawn's look fine -- the user can always make 'em sag, if that's the preference.

And, as was said also, if everyone's input was implemented, Dawn would never be released -- and I don't even want to think about that.

And the reason I posted this time, in the first place, was to say that not long ago, at DNA, I was moaning about wanting a glamour girl to work on, because I was tired of V4.  I do like one of SM's figures, but Dawn seems to be exactly what I was wishing for!  Taller, more glamorous, and distinctly unique!

So come on, fluttery eyelashes!  :-)  Counting the days until...whenever.

Everything mentioned here we each want to see in a 3D figure, merely indicates what we would like to be able to do with it....eventually. What I think we all are saying here about the feet ann body "bits" and musculature/tonus, Body structure adjustment dial, character morphs, etc., etc., is if the basic functions are placed in the dials like the basic stuff was added to say V2 out of the box she was ready set to go as was Mike 2 etc without having to worry about add-on purchases, it would be so much nicer.

I need that aility to spin those dials to get to the figure i want to use out of the box because i don't know how to create morphs or use deformers etc. I can invest in add-on morphs like V4 ++ morphs but if out of the box some of those morphs are included I would so much happier. I don't expect her to do EVERYTHING I might need or want just some of those basic things I might need for some changes and adding character or unique personality to the figure. I still use V2 even though she no longer renders as nicely as V4 and would love if Dawn were at least as functional ou of the box as her.

Joepie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No embedded deformers.
Joepie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The team knows ;

END USER FRIENDLY !!!!!!!!!
Setup room friendly
Fitting room friendly
Transfer morphs friendly.

Go Dawn,

 GO!!!

I recently, thanks to Netflix, began to watch a series I missed when it was new. One thing, that struck me about Jennifer Garner in "Alias" is her well-defined square shoulders. It's like she naturally developed the shoulder pads so many women used to wear to achieve that look. 

Which is why I think Dawn is one of the better bases I've seen in awhile. It's the classic argument. Does one craft an idealistic base or a realistic one? Who sets the ideals and what happens if they change? Andrew Loomis set some ideals back in the 40's, that have influenced illustrators for decades. However, look at the rubenesque ideal and you find something so very different.

My point is, they could tweak Dawn till V7 is released and still not have a base that satisfies everyone. If she's flexible, then eventually, there will be plenty of morphs to move her in a direction that satisfies most.

So, about those PROMs. Is this essentially deformations controlled by the interaction of body parts? How thorough are they? If she rests her chin on her hand, and her elbow on her thigh, while crossing her legs as she sits on the ground, do the various parts deform from the pressure? Even if she doesn't have all those reactions, does she have any automatically? This has always been the challenge for me as a posemaker, to adjust poses so as to fit within the limits of existing figures, and even a little auto-deformation would go a long way.

Thanks for showing us that pose!  Not bad at all.  I'm really impressed with that side view showing the arm and breast.  I love how her elbow bends.  It will be so nice not to have to use the morph brush to fix the front and back of her shoulders.

Quote - We really do like hearing from the community, and while we try to fit many of your suggestions into Figure development as possible, she would never be released to you if we didnt say, "ok for this round we think this is a solid figure." Just know that your feedback is a big help and will continue to guide us on improving Dawn in the future...We are watching!

;)

Exactly, I don't expect Dawn to be MY ideal of a female figure.  That's what all the morphs will be for.  

I prefer narrower shoulders too, so I will use the Morphs++ Morphforms ChestSize to tone down M4/V4's chests and will also reduce the collar scale.  Tiny amounts help to reduce those model shoulders.  (Just wish there was a morph dial I could set to give me broader shoulders.  But nooo, so I have to settle for looking like a pear.)

I also prefer smaller breasts.  I don't think I've ever used a positive number with V4's BreastsSize (or BreastsLarge).  Unfortunately, V4 isn't all that receptive to having smaller breasts.  And the Elite morphs made that even worse.

I have seen nothing that makes me doubt whether Dawn will become my go to figure.  

Well, the genitals thing disappoints me.  Even though I rarely do nudes, I still like working with a female figure that's got its bits (or looks like it's got its bits).  Though I'm not sure I'd buy bits from a third party.  They tend to get a bit extreme.  

In the case of a male, I'd rather there was a bulge morph in the figure so they didn't look so neutered.  That might also help to get male clothing that didn't look like it was made for a female.

Quote - Dawn's starting shape is not my personal ideal for what I want in my female figures, mostly just the shoulder width.  I also like narrower shoulders.  However, as has been pointed out by others, that is what customization is for.  What Dawn IS I find terrific.  She isn't going to be everything to everyone, especially out of the box, but I think she is pretty solid and beautifully set up for customization.  She has some things other figures don't have. I think what she has is going to be the answer to issues many have wished could be addressed, but never dreamed ever would be.  She'll only get better once creative artists get their hands on her.  

*edit to change one word. 

Quote - Well, the genitals thing disappoints me.  Even though I rarely do nudes, I still like working with a female figure that's got its bits (or looks like it's got its bits).  Though I'm not sure I'd buy bits from a third party.  They tend to get a bit extreme.

And another problem with having to buy the genitals from somewhere else is matching the textures.

Well, morphing down there to give a figure just the camel toe so that she won't look like a Barbie is easy enough, I could make that a freebie with no problem.

While I like having the figure correct, I'm not going to reject a figure if it's not.  That one area that I almost never have visible, if I need something, a magnet will give a close enough approximation for what will be seen.

Doric

The funny thing is that I would actually only use a genital pack on a relatively rare occasion, but the idea of it being available when I do want it could be a major factor when deciding which figure to make a character on.

When it's time for a male character, I'd posit that there's an actual need for toast to look like it belongs, but that won't be for a wee while yet.  I don't have a problem with the Genesis toast (I happily do both male & female pin-ups but mostly avoid crossing into porn), but if I've fully embraced Dawn by the time a male is released, then I'd be embracing it too.

she is superb as is, morphs just make it better, i rarly use morphs except for the PB4 injection then RM faces

Thanks so much for showing the hand to shoulder pics.  Looks really good from a posing perspective.  Dawn appears to be so far above and beyond models currently available.  As long as the core model bends and functions as correctly as possible, all other embellishments could be added or adjusted according to preference, whether it be sizing, positioning, various add-ons, or textures...which is what would make it unique custom art.   Thanks to the HiveWire team for patiently considering the crucial core issues so that we will all have a great base model upon release.   Really looking forward to the release by the way  :D

Quote - Well, morphing down there to give a figure just the camel toe so that she won't look like a Barbie is easy enough, I could make that a freebie with no problem.

For the work I do that would be perfect and if a texture that is anatomicly correct is used who would know the difference?

Nobody -- unless somebody was out to render porn, which doesn't float my boat.  A beautiful nude (or even tasteful sensuality) now, is an entirely different matter.  For a beautiful nude, a pretty "camel toe" would do just fine.  (First time I ever heard it called a camel toe.)  :-)

I actually just read all 49 pages. I'm caught up for a second. DAZ Studio convert from Poser many years ago. Very interested in Dawn. I love Genisis, but the Genisis 2 Female while very nice does not make my wallet wiggle. I'm waiting for the Dawn :) 

Quote - Nobody -- unless somebody was out to render porn, which doesn't float my boat.  A beautiful nude (or even tasteful sensuality) now, is an entirely different matter.  For a beautiful nude, a pretty "camel toe" would do just fine.  (First time I ever heard it called a camel toe.)  :-)

 ... to porn or not to porn, I'd like to have the choice

I get lost sometimes in the technical talk, still just a armature here. I thought JCM were good because it meant muscles would flex realisticly. So not having them means when a figure is morphed the bends will still look good? Like A4 morph I love the shape but the elbows look terrible, and the fix packs don't help.

I guess I'm asking is, the way Dawn is built, means the morphed figure will bend well?

Quote - I get lost sometimes in the technical talk, still just a armature here. I thought JCM were good because it meant muscles would flex realisticly. So not having them means when a figure is morphed the bends will still look good? Like A4 morph I love the shape but the elbows look terrible, and the fix packs don't help.

 

I guess I'm asking is, the way Dawn is built, means the morphed figure will bend well?

Yes she looks like she will bend quite well.  JCM for muscle movement are quite a separate matter from those used to correct deficiencies in the rigging.  There is nothing stopping anyone from creating and setting up muscle movement JCMs.  from what i can see she looks like she has great topology for it

Quote - ... That doesn't mean that clearly alien looking humans should be justified as ideal, but I feel some variance in structure is okay.

Poor Aliens ... ;)

Vilters's stance on the breast position baffles me.

I am a woman of ample proportions and I am 58 years old. I still look in the mirror sometimes, even without clothes. I also go to gym and see a lot of nude or scantily dressed ladies there, of all shapes and sizes. The vertical positioning of Dawn's breasts looks perfectly normal to me. OK, we live in different hemispheres, perhaps that is it.

I am unlikely to render Dawn in a swimsuit or underwear. If I do anything to her breasts it will be to cover them.

I am over the moon about the straightforward rigging and the fact that she has no JCMs that will make it difficult to clothe her.

Quote - Nobody -- unless somebody was out to render porn, which doesn't float my boat.  A beautiful nude (or even tasteful sensuality) now, is an entirely different matter.  For a beautiful nude, a pretty "camel toe" would do just fine.  (First time I ever heard it called a camel toe.)  :-)

Totally agree for 99% of the time; having them as an option would perhaps be more of a psychological weapon than something to use all the time.  But there is that 1%...

Choices and options, that's what will coax artists away from other figures  - perhaps not to take over their runtime, but at least enough to become a "go to" item.

Yup, it's not that I want to create porn all time, but a figure without a real genital option gives me a feeling of having an uncomplete figure. It would be fine, if there were just enough polys to modell her into a complete anatomical correct female. Another Barbie with just a slit wouldn't be enough to make her complete.

These are from references.
Roxie and 3 Lo poly figures at 8.300 each.

About JCMs:

Weightmapps and bulgemaps can only get you so far, as they both can move a vertex only "in" or "out" in regard to the joint center.

A JCM fix morph can move a vertex into any direction you want, so the joint can have any shape you want.

You can get pretty far without a JCM (Both V3WM and D3WM don't use JCMs for their shoulders as I wanted to see how far I could push the limits), but if you want 100% accuracy, they are a must.

Also if you want your figure to be capeable of extreme bends.

V3WM and D3WM can cross their feet behind their heads, and despite careful weightmapping, the only way to make them do that without their rear ends exploding was to add a JCM to their butts.

It takes just a couple of minutes to make a JCM fix morph using ColorCurvator's MorphLoader or GoZ and to set it up using the Dependency Editor.

You have to decide for yourself if that added realism is worth those few extra minutes for you.

(JCM morphs are injectable, btw, just like any other morph)

So, nope, JCMs are not a "kludge" or "sloppy rigging" that should be avoided.

It is a tool that gives those of us who prefer 100% realistic joints the edge over those who set different priorities.

"Yup, it's not that I want to create porn all time, but a figure without a real genital option gives me a feeling of having an uncomplete figure. It would be fine, if there were just enough polys to modell her into a complete anatomical correct female. Another Barbie with just a slit wouldn't be enough to make her complete."

I had the same "What, we gotta buy the female bits separately?" feeling over another figure a couple of years ago.  Then realized it was purely psychological, as someone said.  I may render a nude once in a blue moon, and I've never gotten up the nerve to even render an interesting piercing -- although I've got some cool piercers.  :-) 

Still, I respect others' viewpoints/creative visions, but considering HW's site policy, I can understand why nether-regions are not being modeled into Dawn.  Their figure, their rules, ultimately -- even though they're going above and beyond, when it comes to listening to the community.

And that's another argument for variety in the figure gene pool.  :-)  We all know there are figures out there with a lot more than a camel toe, if someone is willing to shell out the dough.

Quote - Low or high,
breasts or polycount.

These are from references.
Roxie and 3 Lo poly figures at 8.300 each.

In for a penny, in for a pound.  :-)  Might as well make everybody mad, while I'm at it. 

No offense, but those are not the norm.  And I respectfully add, it's not the standard that most modern girls strive for, or that the public wants to see.  A photo restoration book, by a pro in the industry, offers this:  "One of my biggest challenges is to make all models appear to have a C cup size."  :-)  Those resemble A - small B.

Agreed, Jan19. And it's unusual to see a woman that small who is so saggy (unless she's over 50...maybe). 

(I'm a woman, too.)

I go away for a few days, and discover the thread has literally grown 50% in size when I get back (it's up to pages from 33)...

Quote - Nice to see that my Dawn update info posts are being copied across to other sites for other users to see!!!! LOL.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Happy to help. Speaking of which, I copied information about Dawn over to the forums at Poser World, and they want to know how can developers get the dev rig and resources so they can support her as soon as she's released?

Quote - Great to see all the big hitters involved in this, and it's a nice looking model, too.

As for a name for the male counterpart, what the blue hell is wrong with calling it Sam?  Or Paul, for that matter? :P

There's nothing wrong with calling him Paul, but Sam is Sadie's boyfriend.

(And Don was in Poser 5, and Anton's already used Apollo... All the good names are already taken.)

Quote - I go away for a few days, and discover the thread has literally grown 50% in size when I get back (it's up to pages from 33)...

Quote - Nice to see that my Dawn update info posts are being copied across to other sites for other users to see!!!! LOL.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Happy to help. Speaking of which, I copied information about Dawn over to the forums at Poser World, and they want to know how can developers get the dev rig and resources so they can support her as soon as she's released?

You Poser Pros have been holding out on me!!! No one told me that Poser Pro has transfer capabilities for weight maps and Morphs! No Dev rig needed btw!

Load your .obj( group it if you havent already, or transfer grouping...) Go to setup room and then use the Library to apply the Dawn figure to the clothing! It gives the option to transfer morphs and you get to choose which ones! Awesome stuff really!

So the question becomes is a dev rig really necessary? I guess for those that do not have the pro version of Poser...but it is so worth it!

Actually yes, you do need a dev rig, as you don't want to take over any materials, magnets, morphs etc. Everything also has to be zeroed correctly.

back on page 3, there is a email address for Steve, I would drop him a line along with details of what the developers are asking.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Yes, I think it is necessary.  I don't create clothing, but those who do may use Daz Studio, and those who use Poser don't necessarily have Poser Pro 2014.  The feature you're referring to, I believe, is not in Poser 9 or Poser 10 or Poser Pro 2012, all of which will support the use of Dawn.

You can't expect everyone who wants to create clothing to buy and use Poser Pro 2014 ;)

My rules for doing a Dev kit, and I've done enough!! Lol.

Zero figure with NO IK on, Zero all zoint rotations.

Remove materials.

Remove magnets.

Remove morphs (BIG ONE THIS!!! Copyright can bite you in the butt!!)

You will be suprised at how much that will strip out of a figure.

So. yes an official dev rig is required, it's something I always ask for with a new figure.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Zero figure with NO IK on

Further, IK should be completely removed from a Dev cr2, IHMO.  Avoids issues.

The transfer morphs option is great, I know I've used it, but as mentioned, it only works in PP2014.

Dev rigs will be usable for those using Poser 9 upwards as this is what is required in Poser for WM.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Thanks Joe, forgot that ome!!! Lol.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Well then, a dev rig is easy for Dawn. Remove materials, done. Lol.

Dawn's memorized state is the zeroed state, IK is off by default, and she has no morphs or magnets in the base cr2!!!

It's already been mentioned that she will come with a Dev Rig.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Vilters's stance on the breast position baffles me.

I am a woman of ample proportions and I am 58 years old. I still look in the mirror sometimes, even without clothes. I also go to gym and see a lot of nude or scantily dressed ladies there, of all shapes and sizes. The vertical positioning of Dawn's breasts looks perfectly normal to me. OK, we live in different hemispheres, perhaps that is it.

I am unlikely to render Dawn in a swimsuit or underwear. If I do anything to her breasts it will be to cover them.

I am over the moon about the straightforward rigging and the fact that she has no JCMs that will make it difficult to clothe her.

I so Agree and it has been going on for a long time, he will even argure with a woman such as yourself who has breast! then he will telll you that your breast are in the wrong place! Baffling! ;)

Quote - > Quote - Low or high,

breasts or polycount.

These are from references.
Roxie and 3 Lo poly figures at 8.300 each.

 

In for a penny, in for a pound.  :-)  Might as well make everybody mad, while I'm at it. 

No offense, but those are not the norm.  And I respectfully add, it's not the standard that most modern girls strive for, or that the public wants to see.  A photo restoration book, by a pro in the industry, offers this:  "One of my biggest challenges is to make all models appear to have a C cup size."  :-)  Those resemble A - small B.

 

Exactly!

"The feature you're referring to, I believe, is not in Poser 9 or Poser 10 or Poser Pro 2012, all of which will support the use of Dawn."

Someone correct me, but "borrowing" a rig from a figure cr2 by entering the SetUp room and clicking on that figure was possible since the SetUp room was introduced in Poser 4 ProPack.

I never bothered with "PhiBuilder" or the "Create New Figure" functionality in Poser but always created clothing or new figures that way.

What is new in PP-2014 is the "morph transfer" that allows you to directly add figure morphs into clothing, but this was already possible before with D3D's "MorphingClothes" script as well as PhilC's WardobeWizzard.

Sadly what is gone now is the "direct morph copying", so if you want to make a modified version of an existing figure, all morphs have to now painstakingly be copied by hand back into the new cr2.

That's a "feature" I'm actually very, very unhappy with, and why I still have an older version of Poser installed.

But back to Dawn:

Sure no harm in making a dev-rig available for those who prefer it for their workflow.

Borrowing a rig, gives you the having to edit it, take out the things already mentioned.

Using a proper dev rig, all that has already been stripped out, so you only need to edit to get rid of parts not required, as in head and neck for a skirt.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

As for low vs high boobs:

That's why I strictly work following real world reference without any modification on my part.

So people can say they don't like the shape I sculpted and they rather prefer another one, but they can never say my sculpts are "wrong", because I can simply show the reference and give proof that the shape exists in real life and so it is perfectly "right".

I can't say wether Vilter's sculpts are right or wrong without seeing the reference pics.

But it's a bit sad that all Poser figures have to look like photo-manipulated magazine covers by default.

Guess if someone could convince Angelina Jolie to have a 100% accurate laser scan being made from her for a Poser figure, most Poser users would immediately search for the morph dials to make her look "prettier" and "more like Vicky".

;-)

"Borrowing a rig, gives you the having to edit it, take out the things already mentioned."

I usually load the figure whose rig I want to borrow, delete everything I don't need, zero it, memorise it (Important !), and then resave it to the library.

So I make my own dev-rigs and that takes only a few minutes.

But as I said, no harm in making an official one for those who need it.

:-)

Chiming in on the breast debate.. From my perspective, Dawn's breasts are actually placed too low, not too high..

I am myself an H-cup (for real), but my breasts are still higher up on my chest than those of Dawn.. I guess that just proves that we are all different ;)

On the no-genitals thing: No genitals on the female model doesnt really bother me that much, I don't have that for V4 either, for artistic nude renders the textures are usually good enough. But for the male model, making artistic nude renders without any male 'attachments' would just look odd regardless.. let's hope someone will make a 'normal' mod for that, as I have no interest in the 'abominal' ones!

But I like what I see and can't wait to try her out!!

Wondering if the HiveWire3D "interesting news at the weekend" will appear today?

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

I am very curious to know how well Poser's Autogroup will work for Dawn. I can group a clothing model manually in Blender, but that is tedious. When Autogroup works, it is wonderful but for some figures it is still sometimes necessary to do the grouping manually. I had to do this with Koz. OBJ2CR2 does a very good job of grouping, I am hoping PhilC will support Dawn for OBJ2CR2.

I think that the fitting room in PP2014 doesn't copy over unnecessary materials the way the setup room did in PP2012 (Did I imagine this?). Anyway, PhilC's Poser Pocket Knife gets rid of those very neatly and easily.

Quote - "The feature you're referring to, I believe, is not in Poser 9 or Poser 10 or Poser Pro 2012, all of which will support the use of Dawn."

Someone correct me, but "borrowing" a rig from a figure cr2 by entering the SetUp room and clicking on that figure was possible since the SetUp room was introduced in Poser 4 ProPack.

I never bothered with "PhiBuilder" or the "Create New Figure" functionality in Poser but always created clothing or new figures that way.

What is new in PP-2014 is the "morph transfer" that allows you to directly add figure morphs into clothing, but this was already possible before with D3D's "MorphingClothes" script as well as PhilC's WardobeWizzard.

Sadly what is gone now is the "direct morph copying", so if you want to make a modified version of an existing figure, all morphs have to now painstakingly be copied by hand back into the new cr2.

That's a "feature" I'm actually very, very unhappy with, and why I still have an older version of Poser installed.

But back to Dawn:

Sure no harm in making a dev-rig available for those who prefer it for their workflow.

on a mac older rig, i used an application called morph manager, which i loved, to transfer morphs from one figure to another of same (heavily morphed V2 to base V2).

i don't think it is available for my new macbook pro but is this morph transfering what you're refering to?