Hmm... got the free basic Dawn this evening and.... meh.   She does not seem to be at all compatible with Poser 6, so until I can afford to upgrade Dawn is pretty much useless for me.

Still I attempted to experiment with her somewhat, but I could not get her morphs to load correctly.  First, it requirse that I have PMD enabled, something I normally have disabled because its always been buggy.  Minor annoyance.  So then I loaded the morphs, many of them were broken in Poser 6.  This may simply be a version issue; they do say she requires Poser 9+, which means those of use using Poser 8 or older are just out of luck.

Okay so I can't use Dawn until I upgrade... got it.  Would have liked to see more backwards compatability (I think there are still a lot who don't have P9+) but I get that may not have been possible.

But I was still curious about her so next I imported her mesh into Blender to have a look at how she was built.  And again I wasn't all that impressed.

Vicky 4 has 68498 vertices and 66,830 polys.  A quick check with Blender's MeshLint shows that there are no tri's or ngons in Vicky's mesh.

Dawn had 39096 vertices and 39,326 polys, a bit lighter (about 40%).  A quick check with Blender's MeshLint shows she has 1702 tri's in her mesh.

I was surprised by this, there should not have been any tri's in her mesh at all.  Many of the tris are in her arms and legs (there are also clusters in her ears and the front of her neck).  What was more surprising was seeing examples of two tris next to each other that easily could have be made into a quad with the removal of a single edge, not sure why they didn't do that.  Its going to be interesting to see how this affects the mesh in the future with morphs, and especially applying subdivision in Poser, etc.  Personally, I would have preferred and expected a mesh made of pure quads for any sort of organic model (people, creatures, clothing, etc.); that's just the standard in organic modelling now.

The lower poly count could be a plus however.  With newer versions of Poser being able to subdivide for smoothing this could reduce the strain when rendering scenes with mutliple figures.  You can add poly's with subdivision but even with full blown modelling software its a pain to reduce them.  Though it may not be much of an advantage as its generally not polygon counts that slow renders in Poser / DS / Lux down but the large textures and transmaps (transmaps really put a strain on most rendering engines which is why you get such a slow down when you add hair).

Oh, and if you're a fan of big eyelashes, looks like the Dawn has the potential to have some HUGE eyelashes (and by huge I mean crazy up past her eyebrows huge).

Her mesh does look dense enough to add a genital crease, but probably not a very good one.  So if you need full nude renders you're probably still better off with V4.

So to recap..

... can't use her with anything less than Poser 9

... morphs require PMDs, even the INJ files require it, struck me as odd and mildy annoying.

... mesh has a lot of tri's that it probably shouldn't have

... on the plus side the lower poly count may help slightly with renders

I'm finding it hard to get excited about her.  Not surprising since I don't have the minimum software to be able to use her, that definitely puts a damper on it.  But even with newer software, wish the morph INJ files worked like all the other INJ files I have and did not require I have PMD active.  Also, I'm suspicious of all those tris.

Just have to wait and see how this plays out but for now Vicky 4.2 is still going to be my main girl.

From the Hivewire3d Page on Dawn:

"What's Included & Features

• Dawn Base Figure- Native Poser Vertex Weight-Mapped Figure (Requires Poser 9 or newer)"

You are correct... this is a figure for Poser as it is today.

The most interesting thing I have noticed about her is a trick of rendering... To me she is quite ugly unrendered, but sort of pulls the ugly duckling/swan trick at render time. Very pretty when rendered, especially using IDL.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Wish Roxie had that support.

I wish many other figures had this kind of support from Rendo. I've never seen Rendo so active in promoting something that isn't their own or any other figure at all. I guess being famous helps promoting your figure, it's the same as always..... Rendo promotes the big names who really don't need all that over the top extra attention at all and let's the little guys drown, no matter how good their stuff is. The good thing is that finally poser may get a figure that has enough support, the bad thing is that other good figures will suffer because of this.

Anyway.... I've got Dawn, played with her for a little while and I didn't see anything that utterly impressed me at all, she's just another Vicky but this time not made by DAZ. I've been more impressed by other much more original and creative figures in my runtime. I'm sure she will do well, since she's just a rebranded Vicky with a different name. For me I don't see the need for a new vicky-like figure at all, spending lot's of money in items for her if she's too close to what I've got already. I'm sure that DAZ isn't happy with this though and that Rendo (and others) finally can draw back (some of) the poser audience that left over the years. I've had a few minutes of rendering fun with Dawn, hope others will enjoy here much longer then I did.

 

I agree. I've followed the Dawn threads as a lurker, loosely while doing other things, waiting to see something impressive with her. 

Still waiting. 

So far I've seen nothing that suggests she utilizes Poser's built-in features to any degree beyond some basic weightmapping, and I do mean basic. Where are the muscle/tendon flexes, twists, bulges, etc?  Where are the animated joint centers and scaling features? If Dawn is truly a figure built to utilize all of Poser's latest features, then why aren't we seeing examples of the infant Dawn, the toddler Dawn, the she-wolf Dawn, the teenage Dawn, the world's fattest woman Dawn, etc? 

Also haven't seen any evidence that her creators have actually studied the human form and proportions and how they relate/are interpreted in 3D. The base figure is pretty damned ugly and doesn't even look human without her skin paint, and whats up with that man chin?

Not trying to throw insults but so far V4 is still a more attractive and complete figure. Comparing her to V5 isn't even relative. V5 looks very human without skin. Even P6 Jessie looks more human without skin.

And yeah, I know her original creator is a somewhat famous painter - if you're into jesus paintings - but being able to paint/draw a believable human isn't even in the same ball park as being able to model/sculpt a believable 3D human. The fact they were involved in the design of previous V+ incarnations makes it even worse. They should know what they're doing in terms of anatomical correctness by now.

Then there is the (possible) issue with DAZ and former DAZ employees, and possible legal ramifications, that I haven't seen anyone bring up or question yet. Maybe they don't exist, but if they do, it's quite possible DAZ could pull the plug on Dawn if they view her as a threat. We're talking about former DAZ employees who worked on previous DAZ figures - some of whom seem disgruntled.  

Unless DAZ is somehow connected to Dawn's development behind the scenes - which I suspect is actually the case, though no one will ever actually admit as much even when asked point-blank - otherwise, DAZ may be able to persue legal action depending on what sort of contract agreements and competition clauses that exist that the majority may know nothing about. (Former employees/partners often face legal issues when trying to branch off and form their own competing product(s).

Maybe all of that is just hyper speculation, but its something to keep in mind before dumping a bunch of money and time on another figure that may wind up facing the same fate as old Renda did.

Yes, I'm very critical. Can't help it, I'm a Libra, it's my nature ;-)

Still, if all goes well, I'll probably support her, but purely for selfish reasons.

 

~Shane

V4 is not a complete figure out of the box.  She's actually butt ugly out of the box.  She needs many, many helper morphs to bring her to the out of the box state of Dawn, who bends like a dream plus decent textures, cause who would ever want to use her with that dreadful pink bathing suit default look?

I've been helping to test some products for Dawn, and I've been pleased as punch with her and have had a bunch of fun using her.  Having extra bones in the torso area makes doing poses with her so fun.  Even a decent looking backbend is easy!  I got it first try.

No she doesn't have all the morphs I would like, however she has some great ones such as 'body suit' morph which I fully intend to use the hell out of once the texture conversion comes out for Reality Paint for all the 2nd skin stuff I had for V4.  Also I see folks like Xemeva and Meipe developing new morphs for breasts.  (Yep bought em!)  

As far as being able to do some extreme stuff with her.  Why don't you check out the Hivewire 3D forums?  Mec4D has managed to turn her into a really sexy guy, Virtual World has a girl will be in my shopping cart as soon as I see her in the store! I got Tempest 3D's Lycia too.  The Alexis morph over at Hivewire3D is cute as a button and a great teen / younger character morph.  Sparky has made a Cat person for her and is working on getting that finalized.  RAWart is doing great body shapes too that will be available for Poser (already has DAZ covered).  The dwarf will be mine! And of course I bought one of Mstene's characters too, because I wanted an exotic beauty.

As far as why people aren't supporting Roxie.  I don't know.  She's cute enough, I think.  A good character, but I don't think she had the collaboration behind her that this team has been able to pull off.  Smith Micro isn't nearly as good at creating buzz, I think.  Perhaps sadly.  At Hivewire, not only were they able to put together a great new figure for the 3D community and offer it to both DAZ and Poser users, but they were able to stir interest among the top vendors in the community.  It's very, very early in this game, and she already has top people on board.

My hat is off to HIvewire, YurDigital, Rendo and RDNA and all the great content creators, both content for sale and free.

To me the future is bright with this new Dawn.  Think I might need shades!

Quote - Got the starter, haven't installed it yet, might be a few days. 

I agree with those that say it's another vicky, version X.  Poserworld has a bikini and a couple of gowns for her, but the rest of what I've seen, prime reason I use Poserworld. 

Methinks it may be one that I install, and with the next version of Poser, I won't reinstall. 

I want more for Rex and Roxie.

Doric.

Interesting.. I gave up on roxie after just a few poses...all it took was raising the arms... rex I havent really tried much so I cant say.  I havent seen anything mind blowing for them either.

To say she isnt a step up (ok not adressing the quoted post now but some general thread comments) from v4 is being unnecessarily dismissive.  She actually uses poser and DS current tech natively.  Does she have Tris?  yes she does... nobody has actually been able to demonstrate to me whay thats bad.  I cant tell you how much time I've wasted trying to get rid of tris in my models for no discernible purpose other than the oft repeated dogma"tris are bad mmkay".  Does her base CR2 utilize the animated joint centers?  no .. why would it?  But they are there and available for creators.  I've seen a really cool cat-girl morph that makes use of them.  I'm really not sure what the expectation is that generates the 'i'm too cool for your new figure' negativity I'm seeing so far.  

Its a nice new figure.. its free... it works in DS and poser.. it bends as well as any figure since antonia.. its pretty easy to make content for...  from the male, dwarf, catgirl etc morphs I've seen it seems pretty morphable...

Is it just sour grapes?  honestly what do people actually expect to see in order to say something nice?   Are only products aimed at a tiny niche of the market and made by a lone starving artist worthy of a nice comment?

thats a much more diplomatic and constructive way of saying it than i came up with!!  

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Wish Roxie had that support.

I wish many other figures had this kind of support from Rendo. I've never seen Rendo so active in promoting something that isn't their own or any other figure at all. I guess being famous helps promoting your figure, it's the same as always..... Rendo promotes the big names who really don't need all that over the top extra attention at all and let's the little guys drown, no matter how good their stuff is. The good thing is that finally poser may get a figure that has enough support, the bad thing is that other good figures will suffer because of this.

Anyway.... I've got Dawn, played with her for a little while and I didn't see anything that utterly impressed me at all, she's just another Vicky but this time not made by DAZ. I've been more impressed by other much more original and creative figures in my runtime. I'm sure she will do well, since she's just a rebranded Vicky with a different name. For me I don't see the need for a new vicky-like figure at all, spending lot's of money in items for her if she's too close to what I've got already. I'm sure that DAZ isn't happy with this though and that Rendo (and others) finally can draw back (some of) the poser audience that left over the years. I've had a few minutes of rendering fun with Dawn, hope others will enjoy here much longer then I did.

 

I agree. I've followed the Dawn threads as a lurker, loosely while doing other things, waiting to see something impressive with her. 

Still waiting. 

So far I've seen nothing that suggests she utilizes Poser's built-in features to any degree beyond some basic weightmapping, and I do mean basic. Where are the muscle/tendon flexes, twists, bulges, etc?  Where are the animated joint centers and scaling features? If Dawn is truly a figure built to utilize all of Poser's latest features, then why aren't we seeing examples of the infant Dawn, the toddler Dawn, the she-wolf Dawn, the teenage Dawn, the world's fattest woman Dawn, etc? 

Also haven't seen any evidence that her creators have actually studied the human form and proportions and how they relate/are interpreted in 3D. The base figure is pretty damned ugly and doesn't even look human without her skin paint, and whats up with that man chin?

Not trying to throw insults but so far V4 is still a more attractive and complete figure. Comparing her to V5 isn't even relative. V5 looks very human without skin. Even P6 Jessie looks more human without skin.

And yeah, I know her original creator is a somewhat famous painter - if you're into jesus paintings - but being able to paint/draw a believable human isn't even in the same ball park as being able to model/sculpt a believable 3D human. The fact they were involved in the design of previous V+ incarnations makes it even worse. They should know what they're doing in terms of anatomical correctness by now.

Then there is the (possible) issue with DAZ and former DAZ employees, and possible legal ramifications, that I haven't seen anyone bring up or question yet. Maybe they don't exist, but if they do, it's quite possible DAZ could pull the plug on Dawn if they view her as a threat. We're talking about former DAZ employees who worked on previous DAZ figures - some of whom seem disgruntled.  

Unless DAZ is somehow connected to Dawn's development behind the scenes - which I suspect is actually the case, though no one will ever actually admit as much even when asked point-blank - otherwise, DAZ may be able to persue legal action depending on what sort of contract agreements and competition clauses that exist that the majority may know nothing about. (Former employees/partners often face legal issues when trying to branch off and form their own competing product(s).

Maybe all of that is just hyper speculation, but its something to keep in mind before dumping a bunch of money and time on another figure that may wind up facing the same fate as old Renda did.

Yes, I'm very critical. Can't help it, I'm a Libra, it's my nature ;-)

Still, if all goes well, I'll probably support her, but purely for selfish reasons.

 

~Shane

 

V4 is not a complete figure out of the box.  She's actually butt ugly out of the box.  She needs many, many helper morphs to bring her to the out of the box state of Dawn, who bends like a dream plus decent textures, cause who would ever want to use her with that dreadful pink bathing suit default look?

I've been helping to test some products for Dawn, and I've been pleased as punch with her and have had a bunch of fun using her.  Having extra bones in the torso area makes doing poses with her so fun.  Even a decent looking backbend is easy!  I got it first try.

No she doesn't have all the morphs I would like, however she has some great ones such as 'body suit' morph which I fully intend to use the hell out of once the texture conversion comes out for Reality Paint for all the 2nd skin stuff I had for V4.  Also I see folks like Xemeva and Meipe developing new morphs for breasts.  (Yep bought em!)  

As far as being able to do some extreme stuff with her.  Why don't you check out the Hivewire 3D forums?  Mec4D has managed to turn her into a really sexy guy, Virtual World has a girl will be in my shopping cart as soon as I see her in the store! I got Tempest 3D's Lycia too.  The Alexis morph over at Hivewire3D is cute as a button and a great teen / younger character morph.  Sparky has made a Cat person for her and is working on getting that finalized.  RAWart is doing great body shapes too that will be available for Poser (already has DAZ covered).  The dwarf will be mine! And of course I bought one of Mstene's characters too, because I wanted an exotic beauty.

As far as why people aren't supporting Roxie.  I don't know.  She's cute enough, I think.  A good character, but I don't think she had the collaboration behind her that this team has been able to pull off.  Smith Micro isn't nearly as good at creating buzz, I think.  Perhaps sadly.  At Hivewire, not only were they able to put together a great new figure for the 3D community and offer it to both DAZ and Poser users, but they were able to stir interest among the top vendors in the community.  It's very, very early in this game, and she already has top people on board.

My hat is off to HIvewire, YurDigital, Rendo and RDNA and all the great content creators, both content for sale and free.

To me the future is bright with this new Dawn.  Think I might need shades!

 

 

 

Looks very nice.  Good job, creators.  I'm in.

Having put her in and having a play with her, about all I'll say is Judy has the better face.  Yeah, she bends nice, but that doesn't help a case of terminal uglies.  Dial in the open smile, and you get Martha Raye with no help needed.  Too late to do it tonight, I'll remove it all tomorrow.

Doric.

The morph package might soften the remarkable cheekbones and chin. It's an interesting choice for a default.

I might download Dawn if I can get past my resentment of having to provide my birthday to obtain a freebie.

Quote - > Quote - Got the starter, haven't installed it yet, might be a few days. 

I agree with those that say it's another vicky, version X.  Poserworld has a bikini and a couple of gowns for her, but the rest of what I've seen, prime reason I use Poserworld. 

Methinks it may be one that I install, and with the next version of Poser, I won't reinstall. 

I want more for Rex and Roxie.

Doric.

 

Interesting.. I gave up on roxie after just a few poses...all it took was raising the arms... rex I havent really tried much so I cant say.  I havent seen anything mind blowing for them either.

To say she isnt a step up (ok not adressing the quoted post now but some general thread comments) from v4 is being unnecessarily dismissive.  She actually uses poser and DS current tech natively.  Does she have Tris?  yes she does... nobody has actually been able to demonstrate to me whay thats bad.  I cant tell you how much time I've wasted trying to get rid of tris in my models for no discernible purpose other than the oft repeated dogma"tris are bad mmkay".  Does her base CR2 utilize the animated joint centers?  no .. why would it?  But they are there and available for creators.  I've seen a really cool cat-girl morph that makes use of them.  I'm really not sure what the expectation is that generates the 'i'm too cool for your new figure' negativity I'm seeing so far.  

Its a nice new figure.. its free... it works in DS and poser.. it bends as well as any figure since antonia.. its pretty easy to make content for...  from the male, dwarf, catgirl etc morphs I've seen it seems pretty morphable...

Is it just sour grapes?  honestly what do people actually expect to see in order to say something nice?   Are only products aimed at a tiny niche of the market and made by a lone starving artist worthy of a nice comment?

Umm, like, I bought the package, but with what I know is going to be available for clothing for her, more out of curiosity than any expectation it would live up to the hype.  To be blunt, it doesn't.  Not that I expected it to either.  The tech is nice, tri's, big deal, almost everything I make has tri's in it. 

It bends good, I'll give it that.  SubD doesn't seem to make that much difference, so the mesh is pretty good.  But to those that think Judy looked bad in the face, she's been outdone.  And not enough or effective enough morphs to make something decent.  At least Judy worked in the face room. 

Kudos to Hivewire for making a stab at it, which by no means is to be taken as me saying it was a successful effort.  Which of course applies to me, YMMV.  Taking Alyson into the face room, it would be hard not to make something nicer.

Doric.

Quote - The morph package might soften the remarkable cheekbones and chin. It's an interesting choice for a default.

I might download Dawn if I can get past my resentment of having to provide my birthday to obtain a freebie.

The morph tool might do it, the package won't.  Limited, limited, limited.  Also, no gens, nipples, or pregnant morph.  Face morphs are inadequate, body morphs aren't much.  If they're going to rattle V4, it won't be with Dawn. 

Doric.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -   Taking Alyson into the face room, it would be hard not to make something nicer.

Doric.

lol

Easy enough to see when someone is just trolling.. fair enough

even people who have done some very nice work on alyson rarely get her to anything I'd call attractive.

for my 2 cents, I quite like her face.  distinctive sure.  But I'd use it as is.  Not something I could ever say about v4, or alyson for that matter

hmm now let me see if I remember what actually game free with v4 base...  I really dont recall being able to do much with her at all.

The thought that a figure needs to start its life offereing every little thing that has been added to fix v4 over the better part of a decade is ludicrous.  We aren't even out of day 1 yet.  My understanding is that something along the lines of a morphs++ is planned.  Yes the free base package leaves room and need for further upgrades, thats part of the business model.  If she had everything anyone would ever need as part of the free base package she wouldnt be making much of a contribution to the poser economy and the company making her couldn't afford to be a company

Quote - > Quote - The morph package might soften the remarkable cheekbones and chin. It's an interesting choice for a default.

I might download Dawn if I can get past my resentment of having to provide my birthday to obtain a freebie.

The morph tool might do it, the package won't.  Limited, limited, limited.  Also, no gens, nipples, or pregnant morph.  Face morphs are inadequate, body morphs aren't much.  If they're going to rattle V4, it won't be with Dawn. 

Doric.

Downloaded, installed, tested.
Not impressed at all after the hype that was created for her.
She does not live up to the expectations created.

We are 17 years in Poserish 3D, and still get helium filled balloons, 3" too high on the chest,  instead of breasts.

&
Strange grouping, and even stranger material zones.
Tris in a 2013 mesh.
The only advantage was: No magnets in the figure.

My Rex and Roxie's do not have magnets any more either. :-)

Sorry, but going back to Rex & Roxie.

Quote - Does she have Tris?  yes she does... nobody has actually been able to demonstrate to me whay thats bad.  I cant tell you how much time I've wasted trying to get rid of tris in my models for no discernible purpose other than the oft repeated dogma"tris are bad mmkay". 

I can tell you exactly why.  Its called "pinching".  Pinching are unexpected creases in the surface.  They can be caused during subdivision because a tri in a loop of quads causes the quads to sudivide unevenly or incorrectly.  The tri may not subdivide at all (they often don't), creating a larger flat area among now smaller quads which smooth more evenly.  This results in a distortion of the surface.  It can also create problems with morphs.  If we were dealing with 3D modelling it can create additional problems involving subdivision and mesh editing because tris force a change in the direction of the topology that may not be desireable, as well as messing up subdivision.  Generally you want a mesh to be either all tri's or all quads so that things deform and subdivide evenly and without unexpected distortions.  Quads are currently prefered because they make controling the direction of flow in the topology easier to control and they also subdivide evenly and regularly.

I stated previously that it will be interesting to see whether this causes a problem in Poser.  If we were dealing with 3DS Max or Blender or any other professional modeling app, I'd say definitely it would.  But, as I do not have a current version of Poser (I have P6 for now which does not have the subdivision feature) I'm not sure exactly how Poser's subdivision works.  It may not even be true subdivision (I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't).  It may not present a problem for Poser, I can't be certain which is why I said I'm suspicious of it.

Its interesting to note for example that the older Jessi character from P6 has nearly as many tris at just over 1500 in her HiRes mesh.  Jessi also had a higher poly count than even V4 at just over 111,000 polys IIRC.  You see tris in similar locations on Jessi as on Dawn which makes me wonder if both meshes were made by the same person.  The Vicky 4 mesh, conversely, has a very different topology than either Jessi or Dawn.  Anyway, point is, with V4 you can pull her into a professional app like 3DS or Blender or Maya and still use her without issues (I have exported V4 with rigging intact and used her in Blender for example).  You can also use V4 to make morphs, again without issues.  I can even use Blender's subsurf modifier to simulate what using Poser's subdivision might look like as a way of previewing how a morph would look in Poser without having to export and interrupt my workflow.  With Dawn, there would be issues created by those tri's because they cause problems in subdivision and subsurf.  Since I can't alter the mesh to correct such problems, that means working around any problems they cause which could potentially make Dawn more difficult to work with.

A specific example, her nipple.  I'll use this as an example because if you look at the mesh the two odd tri's are easy to spot.  If you were deform that mesh, particularly in extreme deforms, you might well get a problem because while every other part of the nipple is a quad, you have two odd tri's that will inevitably create a different surface topology.  The more extreme the defomration the more visible that will become.  Now look at her arms, you have quite a lot of tris there, what happens if you give her bulging biceps?  What if you turn her into She-Hulk.. will those tri's be noticeable?  And to be honest I haven't tried and can't say for certain without trying it.  I hope it won't be a problem, but potentially it could be.  If it was all quads, you wouldn't have to worry about it.

And that's the issue with tri's in a mostly quad mesh in a nutshell.

Quote - Is it just sour grapes?  honestly what do people actually expect to see in order to say something nice?   Are only products aimed at a tiny niche of the market and made by a lone starving artist worthy of a nice comment?

Not sour grapes at all in my case, I'm just making honest observations.  Does someone have to be nice and applaud just because somebody makes something new?  Personally, if it were me I'd rather have the honest feedback so I know both what I'm getting right and what I'm getting wrong (the later so I can fix it).  So far as what I expect to see, I think I made that clear earlier.

I would have liked to seen Dawn backwards compatible to Poser 6.  With all the hype and talk about a new figure that was useable by both Poser and DS users... I'd like to have seen one that actually was useable by all of us.  Someone made the comment that because Dawn was weight mapped you couldn't use her in P6... why not?   Dawn herself does load in P6, the arms bend, she can be manually posed and that seems to all work okay.  Its not til I try to inject her morphs which require the PMD file that she breaks.  Can someone explain why that PMD is necessary, why could her morphs not be injected the same as every other figure I have?

I would have liked a mesh that was all quads.  Frankly I would have liked one that was about 80,000 poly's which would have been really nice to work with for all kinds of morphs.  As it is, I suspect Dawn will never have the range of morphs that V4 has because there just aren't enough poly's there.

Dawn does have her good points.  The additional bones will make her more bendable.  Dividing the chest and abdomen into two parts each was a good idea and will better simulate how the torso really bends (someone already commented they easily got her to do a back bend, not surprised by that at all).  Her freakishly large eyelash planes will allow some creative options with lashes (and I just saw someone has already taken advantage of that over at YURDigital).  I thought how they did a few of the joints was a little odd, but not being able to really use her in Poser 6 its hard to have an informed opinion about it.

But for me personally, Dawn doesn't offer me anything over Vicky 4 that would make the transition worthwhile.  Not the least because for the time being I'm stuck with Poser 6 and cannot presently afford to upgrade and so can't really use Dawn (that will pretty much take the steam out of your enthusiasm).  Whether its HiveWire, Daz or SmithMicro, all of them would do well to remember the world is currently crawling out of a bad recession that hit a lot of people hard.  Lot of people can't afford to upgrade software, or replace a figure they may have already sunk hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars into with something new.

One other note.  So far as any model being "ugly", I expect a base figure to be.  In fact I'll even go so far as to say a good base figure for something like Poser HAS to be ugly until morphs are applied.  There are two reasons for this.

First, a good base model needs to be generic in order to provide a good neutral base figure to build off of and create individual characters for.  Its a bit like priming a wall for painting, you use a white or grey base primer because they're neutral.  Its provides a good base for the color you applied later, the "color" in this case being individual character morphs.

Second, a good base model would also have to be perfectly symmetrical as part of being neutral.  But, odd thing about us humans we actually find that kind of symetry unattractive.  Its not until subtle variastions are added a face or body begins to become attractive too us; though generally if the variations are too extreme we again begin to find it ugly.

So I don't hold being "ugly" against a base figure, to me its actually a plus if its for the above reasons. 

In regards to tris in an organic mesh - 

Tris have a bad tendency to create artifacts in renders. They can also cause problems with morphs and joint bends depending on their placement. On the oposite side of the spectrum they can also be helpful, at times, with joint bends and morphs, but there are better ways of going about it than using tris.

This doesn't mean it will always happen. You might render a tri'd up figure 1,000 times and never notice it. Depending on your lighting and various material settings, a tri in the wrong place can cause headaches in various situations and is considered unprofessional, "lazy" modeling, unless you're modeling low-res game characters which use very different lighting setups and very basic stick-figure like rigging. 

So its not so much that tris are "bad", it's just that they serve their purpose in certain, specific situations - but are mostly reserved for less organic shapes.

Working with hard surfaces, doesn't really matter how many tris you use, since concrete wood and steel aren't intended to be very flexible. Their shapes always stay the same, unlike organics. 

Cloth/clothing is a different scenario. If it's conforming cloth, then it should usually be treated as an organic. If it's dynamic cloth, then tris can actually be beneficial in that regard as they can allow for more fluid draping, wrinkles, etc. But that is determined by the cloth dynamics engine being used and how it handles quads vs tris. 

The "lazy" label is due to it generally being much more challenging to create a human model without tris, but that requires a good understanding of topology and edgeflow and how different types of geometry work with each other. 

Modeling a human in all quads also helps when working with SubDs. Quads divide into 4s much more neatly than tris do, thus less artifacting. At high res levels too many tris can create "pinching" in the mesh, which can't really be smoothed out much no matter what you do. They just have to be post-worked. You're going to get some pinching anyway because all diamonds reduce to tris. So all diamonds will create pinching, but they're necessary and unavoidable as they direct edgeflow. The goal is to reduce as much as possible, and that's done by reworking the mesh over and over until you get it to an acceptable level. 

As for animated joint centers being built in, they would allow for more realistic joint bends - pretty much why they exist - in both the base figure and any FBMs you might be trying to use. 

Humans aren't hard-bodied robots. Joints do more than bend left, right, up, down, and twist. Multiple systems are at work there, and a joint can move a lot of different ways depending on the position you're aiming for. 

Weightmapping is not the end-all be-all of rigging, especially poser's weightmapping. It's just one tool in the shed. Whats the point in having a lawn mower if there's no feul for it? 

Poser's weightmapping does help, but it still can't create the most believable joint bends by itself, and seems to work best on a per-figure/character basis. Relying on weightmapping alone - or primarily - is actually more limiting than it was before, because now a lot of character morphs, if they are too much different than the base figure - require new weightmapping in order for the morph to really look and feel right when the figure is posed. Animated centers go a long way in alieviating that. Of course they have to be adjusted depending on the morphs that are applied, but that is one of the drawbacks - from a content creation stand-point - of having more advanced features that allow for more realistic figures. Unfortunately it also makes creating add-on content more of a job if you want it to look and function its best, but PP2014 has gone a long way in making content creation less of a hassle anyway.

There are some other points I was going to make, about SubD's and some other things, but too tired right now. Will address it later.

~Shane

Mesh Symmetry is a must for base figures.
You need symmetrical meshes to be able to morph them. (or you are morphing vertex per vertex, and that can be extremely time consuming.)
Symmetry in a base mesh is good.
But for 36k poly's there is very little muscle anatomy, too little.

I see her going into Zbrush and Blender on each and every individual PC and MAC.

Or? She goes the "V" way. You will  "need" morph packs to be able to use her.

"Ugly"?  I do not care for ugly.
"Ugly" is subjective and individual, and Blender can take care of that. LOL.

Strange grouping and mat zones will be her limitations.
Oh, yes, and the "need" for morph packs.

Lucky PP2014 has the fitting room to take care of the clothing.

Quote - Downloaded, installed, tested.
Not impressed at all after the hype that was created for her.
She does not live up to the expectations created.

We are 17 years in Poserish 3D, and still get helium filled balloons, 3" too high on the chest,  instead of breasts.

&
Strange grouping, and even stranger material zones.
Tris in a 2013 mesh.
The only advantage was: No magnets in the figure.

My Rex and Roxie's do not have magnets any more either. :-)

Sorry, but going back to Rex & Roxie.

complete agree. Plus Dawn's side view silhouette is like a trunk with two bubbles. Well normally not a problem, just morph it for yourself, but as allready said, after all that hype, I allow myself being hyper critical. And Dawn is incomplete. She suffers from the typical DAZ/Posette disease of being sexless. It's o.k. to have her without, but there are not enough polygons to modell something nice on your own, which I think has been done on purpose. Well bendings look quite nice, just the knees look funky. (WHAT ???, that's the same when everybody's complaining about Roxie's elbows. "Don't like her , she has weird elbows" ) I like the textures and her default head is not to bad, but did her face really had to be cut in two? To say it nicely: Watching all those promo renders and playing with my copy of Dawn , makes me feel nostalgic, like going back to old Poser5 days.

Quote -  Someone made the comment that because Dawn was weight mapped you couldn't use her in P6... why not?   Dawn herself does load in P6, the arms bend, she can be manually posed and that seems to all work okay. 

Because weightmapping didn't exist in Poser until P9/PP2012, so P1 - P8 can't read/recognize coding/features it wasn't designed to read/recognize.

She may load, but anything in her setup that relies on features not available prior to P9 won't work. 

I can't answer the deal about PMD, someone else might.

And didn't mean to cross post with yours on the tris - i had the page open for a while before I got around to submitting.

~Shane

Quote - > Quote -  Someone made the comment that because Dawn was weight mapped you couldn't use her in P6... why not?   Dawn herself does load in P6, the arms bend, she can be manually posed and that seems to all work okay. 

Because weightmapping didn't exist in Poser until P9/PP2012, so P1 - P8 can't read/recognize coding/features it wasn't designed to read/recognize.

She may load, but anything in her setup that relies on features not available prior to P9 won't work. 

I can't answer the deal about PMD, someone else might.

Yeah I get that it won't use the weight mapping, but that doesn't seem to stop Dawn from loading in P6.  I got that far, arms bend okay, legs bend, etc.  She doesn't "break" til I try to load the morphs which I guessing are weight mapped so perhaps that's the problem.  I'm not really sure, nor sure why they required PMDs.  Just seemed odd and of course annoying.

Quote - And didn't mean to cross post with yours on the tris - i had the page open for a while before I got around to submitting.

No worries, you covered some things I didn't so its all good.

Quote - Dawn is the V5 that Poser users had hoped for and never saw. It's that simple. If Vicki is no big deal to you, then Dawn won't be either.

To me, This is a big deal. It's a figure that works inside of Poser that is finally going to get some real support.

If that's not what floats your boat, then there's no big deal.

I've got to say that I agree completely with what you've said here.

Like many other Poser users, I felt very let down by Daz when V5 was released.  DSON was a step in the right direction, but not really enough.  I'm one of those people who is fortunate in that DSON works reasonably well on my machine.  Emelie (from "The Odds") and Stalker Girl are two of my very favourite Poser morphs.  I've spent quite a lot of time (and money) working with Genesis - V5, S5, M5, F5, A5, H5 and a few other morphs, so I do feel that I've given it a good go and I do still use the content that I have.  What stopped me from buying more Genesis content was the lack of Poser support for many products.  Yes, I could install DS and convert them, but I'd rather spend the time making pictures than fiddling with technicalities.  I definitely wasn't prepared to give Genesis 2 a go, but if people like it then good luck to them - maybe its more suited to people new to the hobby.

My impressions of Dawn so far are mostly positive.  I'm impressed with the way the shoulder joints and armpits work.  I like the bending of the entire figure if it comes to that.

Most of all though, I like the fact that she works in both Poser and Daz Studio.

To those people that are doubting right now - why not download the figure whilst it's free, then hold off a while and see what morphs and clothing are released in the next month or so?  Personally, I didn't like V4 when she was first released, but as more products came out I changed my mind.

I really do hope that Dawn is a success.  Along with all of the other available figures, this is a great time for DS and Poser users because there has never been this much choice.

Final note:  Someone posted in the thread that there are no nipple morphs on Dawn.  They are there, you just have to inject the DawnStarter morphs.

I'll chime in on the original topic...

I like her, she does bend extremely well, and I'm so sick of fighting with Genesis in Poser that anything would have been an improvement! Morphs are on the way, fer sure. The figure has been available for one day! Relax and watch as the community starts to work with her...

Cheers, -JD

The following is my personal opinion, clearly labeled as such.

I will add that I heard many of the same arguments about V4 when she was released, and we see how much she was held back. In my own opinion, the technical complaints I see being posted are FAR less of a problem than the magnet-ridden kludges with V4. Taking the product as a whole, so far she has done everything I've asked, and done it better than V4. My $.02.

jwdell sums up my own feelings very nicely. I'm pleased with what I got to start with and have high hopes. We'll see where it goes.

To me, the most imporant thing about Dawn is the fact that now there is another company that is putting resourses behind the idea of being a major player in the figure creation game. This vendor is also committed to directly supporting the software that I use, and for that reason alone I'm going to give their product a shot.

I'm not actually agreeing with Timberwolf, but I am having an inner debate with myself about whether or not to support Dawn with freebies. So far, I'm leaning against it for several reasons.

1) The native Poser figures need my support more

1. Dawn already has a lot of support, my two cents worth won't matter

2. If and when I do finally start selling my models, it will likely be for a figure like Dawn anyway

BTW, Timberwolf, while I would like nothing better than to support Rex and Roxie, I don't have PP2014 yet, so I don't have access to the figures to model anything for them.

Note:

A number of posts bordering on personal attack and the responses generated therefrom have been deleted.

Let's keep things here to the discussion of Dawn.

Interesting note:

Has anyone else noticed that Dawn's conforming clothing loads with all of the morph folloer boxes checked? You don't have to do it as a separate operation.

Hadn't noticed, but none of the package clothing is of much interest to me.  (Dawn in PoserWorld's wedding gown with combat boots, carrying a warhammer to the altar?)  Sorry, but so far I've seen three pieces of clothing for Dawn I might use, and a lot that I won't be buying. 

Doric.

While different, I think the groupings actually work quite well for her.  Having the extra sections will cause some issues regarding re-using other characters poses, but I think the bending is better because of it.  Also (and I'm taking this at face value from another discussion about another figure that was in development) with each bend and weightmap being more subtle the transfer of weightmaps to clothing works very well without needing nearly as much adjustment as it has from other figures I've worked with

Quote -

Strange grouping and mat zones will be her limitations.

Quote - I'm not actually agreeing with Timberwolf, but I am having an inner debate with myself about whether or not to support Dawn with freebies. So far, I'm leaning against it for several reasons.

1) The native Poser figures need my support more

1. Dawn already has a lot of support, my two cents worth won't matter

2. If and when I do finally start selling my models, it will likely be for a figure like Dawn anyway

BTW, Timberwolf, while I would like nothing better than to support Rex and Roxie, I don't have PP2014 yet, so I don't have access to the figures to model anything for them.

Stick with supporting the native Poser figures please! Miki4 needs you! :)

I don't have PP2014 yet either (decided it wasn't worth the upgrade for 2012).

I actually have a bikini freebie coming out for Miki 4 soon.  I was hoping that  SM would consider putting both Rex and Roxie on sale at CP independent of PP2014, but no joy.  But when you get down to it, That's the advantage that both Dawn and Vicki have for any native Poser figure. No one who either doesn't have or use Poser can support them, whether they want to or not. Plus none of the newer figures from Poser can be used in Studio, so those users have no need to support them even if they do like them.

Until and unless SM addresses that issue, the native Poser figures will never be all that popular in the larger Poser community.

Un-f***ing-believable! I've seen a lot of pissing contests here, but this is the first Pissing on the Parade Contest I've seen. The first two and a half pages of this thread seems to be a competition to see who can boo and hiss the loudest. The dominant message seems to be "I think she sucks, which makes me a lot smarter than all the fools who are happy to see her". Nice.

Quote - A specific example, her nipple.  I'll use this as an example because if you look at the mesh the two odd tri's are easy to spot.  If you were deform that mesh, particularly in extreme deforms, you might well get a problem because while every other part of the nipple is a quad, you have two odd tri's that will inevitably create a different surface topology.  The more extreme the defomration the more visible that will become.

Seriously? The Tri in question is three millimetres long. Three millimetres. Unless you morphed her breasts to the size of jumping castles a 3mm long tri on her nipple is going to occupy about 4 pixels on a render. Good luck trying to spot the negative effects of "a different surface topology" in your render. The sky is indeed falling.

Quote - Un-f***ing-believable! I've seen a lot of pissing contests here, but this is the first Pissing on the Parade Contest I've seen. The first two and a half pages of this thread seems to be a competition to see who can boo and hiss the loudest. The dominant message seems to be "I think she sucks, which makes me a lot smarter than all the fools who are happy to see her". Nice.

Quote - A specific example, her nipple.  I'll use this as an example because if you look at the mesh the two odd tri's are easy to spot.  If you were deform that mesh, particularly in extreme deforms, you might well get a problem because while every other part of the nipple is a quad, you have two odd tri's that will inevitably create a different surface topology.  The more extreme the defomration the more visible that will become.

Seriously? The Tri in question is three millimetres long. Three millimetres. Unless you morphed her breasts to the size of jumping castles a 3mm long tri on her nipple is going to occupy about 4 pixels on a render. Good luck trying to spot the negative effects of "a different surface topology" in your render. The sky is indeed falling.

So start a "I love Dawn" thread. By complaining about the complaining all you're doing is adding to the animosity.

Quote - Un-f***ing-believable! I've seen a lot of pissing contests here, but this is the first Pissing on the Parade Contest I've seen. The first two and a half pages of this thread seems to be a competition to see who can boo and hiss the loudest. The dominant message seems to be "I think she sucks, which makes me a lot smarter than all the fools who are happy to see her". Nice.

Not wishing to be taken wrong here, I'm glad to see a new figure for Poser.  Or I would be if it wasn't a cripple, and a butt ugly cripple at that.  The term "broad" doesn't apply as closely as "board" does.  There is definitely something weird about her torso.  Lack of a decent morph pack cripples her further.  The Vargas girl legs, well, same designer as vicky had, what else would we expect, beyond a morph to pull her back somewhere close to reality, except that morph doesn't exist.  She don't need stilts, her legs are already that long.  Strike two.

And the worst is it's not going to be any easier for me to find decent clothing for her, it's going to be a "vicky 4 fantasy and slutwear" rehash.  SHe's not new  except she can use the new features of Poser, otherwise, ho-hum, just another vicky with the usual glut of clothing that I won't give a nickle for. 

I may have to search a little to find anything for Roxie, but with Roxie, I'm starting with a figure that works well, she's pretty out of the box, has fairly realistic proportions, which for Dawn will have to wait until some third party creates the necessary morphs.  Sorry, but when something exists that fills my ideas already, what I already spent on the bundle is enough to put in the bit bucket and flush.

Doric the disappointed.

And you and Timberwolf stay out of the "I Love Dawn" thread.

Quote - And you and Timberwolf stay out of the "I Love Dawn" thread.

No problem there.  But, dude, you know you're liable to force me to spend some extra bucks so you can get your hands on Roxie and Rex, don't you.  ;^)

Doric

Quote - And you and Timberwolf stay out of the "I Love Dawn" thread.

I promise ;-)

Well, I  got her - first impressions are ok but I tend to do strange things to human figures in my renders anyway.  I'll drop her into Max and see what MentalRay makes of her.  Good luck to the peeps selling and supporting her though - more variety is always a good thing

Sorry Basic - I don't mean to be an ass. I just expected a more professionally crafted figure that actually implemented Poser's new features, since that is what she was hyped up to be. 

From a team of people who are said to be professional 3D artists "investing their lives" in this, (as someone stated earlier), the mesh alone contains very amateur mistakes that are commonly seen in figures created by, well, amatuers, not professionals.

She doesn't do anything that any other figure released post P9 (Antonia, Michelle, Rex, Roxie, etc) already do. 

So it doesn't seem to matter how good (or not) the figure is then, since expressing setbacks in the design are seen as attacks - all that's really important is the name behind it. Kind'a like Stephen King books. 

And this is why Poser will never actually have professionally crafted figures that are viable beyond Poser. "Good enough" is just fine. 

~Shane

Quote - Sorry Basic - I don't mean to be an ass. I just expected a more professionally crafted figure that actually implemented Poser's new features, since that is what she was hyped up to be.

...

And this is why Poser will never actually have professionally crafted figures that are viable beyond Poser. "Good enough" is just fine. 

No problem, Shane. You don't owe me an apology because we disagree.

I suspect that what I want/need/use in a figure is far different from your expectations. I never leave Poser, (and never even do animation!) so as long as I get good Poser reults, then the product is, indeed, "good enough." 

I am interested, though... what Poser features did you expect to see implemented that were not? As far as I can see, she poses better than anything else I've tried, and she renders beautifully. Not sure what I'm missing.

Btw Shane - have I missed any updates on Lucas recently?

Quote - Sorry Basic - I don't mean to be an ass. I just expected a more professionally crafted figure that actually implemented Poser's new features, since that is what she was hyped up to be. 

From a team of people who are said to be professional 3D artists "investing their lives" in this, (as someone stated earlier), the mesh alone contains very amateur mistakes that are commonly seen in figures created by, well, amatuers, not professionals.

She doesn't do anything that any other figure released post P9 (Antonia, Michelle, Rex, Roxie, etc) already do. 

So it doesn't seem to matter how good (or not) the figure is then, since expressing setbacks in the design are seen as attacks - all that's really important is the name behind it. Kind'a like Stephen King books. 

And this is why Poser will never actually have professionally crafted figures that are viable beyond Poser. "Good enough" is just fine. 

 

~Shane

I think the thing you and others who are disappointed in Dawn are missing is not that she does anything that any other post P9 figure already does, but she is a quality figure from people who are known for their quality figures, and she has garnered the support that , until now, only V4 has has had. AND, unlike the other post P9 figures, she has her foot in both the doors of Studio AND Poser. In other words, Dawn represents a reunification of the Poserverse. 

Quote - I think the thing you and others who are disappointed in Dawn are missing is not that she does anything that any other post P9 figure already does, but she is a quality figure from people who are known for their quality figures, and she has garnered the support that , until now, only V4 has has had. AND, unlike the other post P9 figures, she has her foot in both the doors of Studio AND Poser. In other words, Dawn represents a reunification of the Poserverse. 

Amen!

Quote - And this is why Poser will never actually have professionally crafted figures that are viable beyond Poser. "Good enough" is just fine.

If I might ask, what would be the price tag on such a professionally crafted figure?  Would it be within the budget of hobbiests who make no money from their 3D renderings and just do this for fun?  I'd love a figure that was the best of everything, but I don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on her, either.

Obviously a great deal of work has gone into Dawn; but I think I'll pass. I've got tons of V4 morphs and, to be honest, don't think much of this new girl. She seems to have plenty of fans, so I won't be missed!

Quote - She seems to have plenty of fans, so I won't be missed!

Not seeing them in THIS thread! Pretty lonely here. But what else is new.

Perhaps you need to look in the free section, or on other sites?

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

And another thing to remember, V4 wasn't perfect! There are tons of fixes in the stores for her boobs, butt, arms, legs, joints, feet, tongue and teeth.  In fact, about the only thing you can't find for V4 is the plastic surgeon's office prop where she had all that work done!

Just got Dawn-Love this Babe. I don't use nothing but Poser

so she is a great character-love the rump! Glade to see a lot

of support for this new babe-thanks for that.

Quote - > Quote - She seems to have plenty of fans, so I won't be missed!

Not seeing them in THIS thread! Pretty lonely here. But what else is new.

Well, she's got an army of vendor fans in the marketplace.

I haven't seen a release this big since Daz launched Vicky 4. Seems like everyone is in the mix.

I'm going to pick her up, but since she doesn't worki in Carrara 7Pro, I won't be installing her anytime soon.

Quote - > Quote - She seems to have plenty of fans, so I won't be missed!

Not seeing them in THIS thread! Pretty lonely here. But what else is new.

Well maybe all the Dawn fans are too busy playing with her to comment? :)

I'm not sure whether to download her or not. I don't see myself ever using her, she just has no appeal for me at all, but I guess if she's free..... although not sure it's worth the hassle of signing up to Hivewire to dl a figure I'll never use.