If you want to defend your rights and show that a minority elite group can't rule what is good and bad for the Markett place please post your concerns and comments at the merchants forum, under Vette's message. If you don't take care of this now, your stuff could be removed or rejected in the future. So common here and defend your rights to sell. Best Regardings Virus

Funny you should mention posting there Virus, since the very forum by its nature is an elite group, and most here cannot enter it, nor read what is posted there, nor post there ;) If the formation of a FREE Guild, NOT BEHOLDEN, run by artists for artists, including the ability of ALL artists to join up and be a part of it, is what has you so in an uproar and panic, I cannot help but wonder why. The current system is not an open and free one. The one being worked on to be proposed to the populace at large as soon as a few ideas are written down in tidy order, IS a free and under the artists control system ;) I personally think it is a fine idea. I wish I had thought of it in fact. I will back it, and I will encourage all my friends to back it as well.

Grrrrrrr....the secret vendor forum rises its head once more.

Gotta wonder if they sit in there smoking cigars and badmouthing the people releasing freebies that are better then stuff that is for sale. Vendor forum, hmmm I wonder if they've got mystic ceremonies and Faustian plans. If they do, I would certainly be tempted to join.

What's going on in there?

Nothing that doesn't go on out here. We ask questions and get answers. Why does everyone assume that there's all this frigging secret stuff going on in there???? Come on people, are you all so bloody paranoid that you REALLY think we're in there hatching plots to destroy free stuff and any who don't sell their stuff.

Maybe it's because there is a REASON that conversations on the vendor's forum is hidden from the general public. The best way to catch someone's attention is to let them know you are keeping a secret from them.

It's not often that I will post to threads like this but I have to agree with Xena. Nothing is going on that is any different to here or any of the other forums. It deals with merchandising products by vendors its that simple... Regards Eshal

You know you ppl do me head in you think just becouse we as ppl who have stuff in the store,are different from you then you are wrong We are just the same as you we just sell what we make if it bothers you that much then why dont you become a seller also. Now this is just my opinion but the merchants forum is were we as merchants can chat with each outher and discuse the stuff in free stuff nad in market just as you chat here in this forum. Also the merchants here also give alot of free stuff away to the ppl not becouse they have too but rather they like too. We are not elite at all just ppl trying to make a living in our field of work so again instead of moaning about it why dont you make your own stuff and become a merchant so you cna see what goes on in the forum cheers dolly

dolly, you just played into their hands by saying that you do discuss the freestuff. The problem with the whole thing isn't a conspiracy or elitist idea but that vendors may be discussing (and therefore bashing) freestuff. No one likes to be "talked" about behind their back and I suppose that is the gripe here. You just verified that the vendors do discuss the free stuff... Frankly I think vendors should have their own forum to discuss marketing ideas and such. Keeping it private just keeps "know it alls" who don't sell from giving from their opinions & I suppose that is the reasoning behind it being secret. But it might make those who don't vend feel like "commoners" to a degree. Not important enough to see what is going on. It's a shame if discussions regarding the future of the marketplace are hidden. After all, some people might be considering vending, but if they aren't aware of the changes they may choose not to do so. The general public at 'rosity likes to be informed of changes, and the marketplace is part of 'rosity, so it makes sense that the general, non-vending public would want to know of these changes. Maybe more people would sell here if they better understood what was going on in the store....

When i say talk about i dont mean in a nasty way i just mean as a topic of dissgusion i for one post to the free stuff. I am not botherd one bit if ppl want to contribute to the freestuff in fact i welcome it whole heartidly I just think that the ppl who dont sell in the store, not all mind but some are thinking thatr all we do is slag ppl off for putting stuff in frestuff I dont and have not heard any others do the same ehter It dont hurt my sales at all and comopotition is good in all aspects of life so i dont think im playing into anyones hands they are being paranoid over something that dose`nt warrent the attention cheers dolly

This thread is stupid. The fact that the vendor forum is secret is dumb, but any interest in the fact is dumber. I have been to the vendor forum since I have a few items in the Marketplace. I haven't been there in quite a long time because it's not that interesting. If you would take the time to think about what on earth could possibly be discussed in the vendor forum that could get you so upset rather than just reacting to the fact that you can't see the messages, you might realize that there is not much of a chance that anything significant goes on there. Would you feel like a commoner if you went to a store and they didn't let you in the Employee's Only area? Would you feel like a commoner if a company didn't allow you into one of their sales meetings? I work for Home Depot and all of their written material -- manuals, product knowledge classes, orientation handbooks -- has printed on it that no one outside the company can read them. Does that make you feel like a commoner? If you go to Disneyworld and the Imagineers who run the place won't let you go down into the subterranean level where they run all the rides, would you feel like a commoner? Mike

oh puhleeze, it isn't exactly the same thing. At home depot you are an employee. At 'rosity they want vendors for the store, the more the merrrier, it keeps the site running. Home Depot is a retailer, Rosity is a broker - not an employer, quite different. I personally could care less about the vendors area. I don't sell here, that's my choice. But it is easy to see why others get upset about it and what it is that upsets them by their comments. Now, on the other hand if 'rosity vendors WERE employees then a secret forum would make perfect sense. But they do not employ the vendors, they broker for them. Of course if 'rosity employed the vendors, it would be a totally different marketplace with set product standards, creation lists demanding certain items be produced and time frames for development. So the comparison of a brokerage to an employer is "stupid" BG

Well, you can't compare Renderosity with a normal company. The vendors forum would be more like a secret meeting-board for those who want to earn hard cash with their work as opposed to the freestuff advocates on the other side. Now it is quite questionable to put up a secret vendors forum in this context and like everything secret it will attract those who are curious. I do consider putting something into the marketplace just to know what's going on. Maybe there should be a secret freestuff-forum unavailable for those with items in the store. That too would be quite idiotic and those a little paranoid could ask the question why the hell anybody here needs a secret forum. Is there anything posted there not mean't for the general populace of Renderosity? Some new CR2-secrets maybe? Maybe a new way of setting up figures? Ah, the world is a wonderful place if you're paranoid... Joerg

Would you feel like a commoner if Interesting choice of words, here.

So why not do what other sites do... have the forum listed openly but deny access unless members, a.k.a. vendors or admin., have a password? Seems to work well for others... Personally, I couldn't care less. Merchants here are entitled to a place that's NOT open to the usual heckling that some members here insist on dishing out almost every thread, IMO.

So, hmatienzo, are you suggesting that the merchants' forum should be available for non-merchants to read, just not to post to? If so, that sounds like a fine idea to me.

Question: Mehndi said "If the formation of a FREE Guild, NOT BEHOLDEN, run by artists for artists, including the ability of ALL artists to join up and be a part of it, is what has you so in an uproar and panic, I cannot help but wonder why. The current system is not an open and free one." Does that mean that not everyone can contribute to the store? That only a few are allowed to do so?? Who is beholden to whom?? Curious minds want to know.....

Please understand there is no intention of limiting store items to a certain group of people. The MarketPlace was established for the community and helps keep it going from day to day. And because it serves the community will be open to all members whose products meet the submission guidelines. As for the forums, these forums are there to communicate information specific to merchants and mods and to work through issues. When any changes are made, those are announced to the community. The intent was to provide an area we could get work done efficiently. Again, the marketplace is for the community and will not limit participation as long as the products meet the submission guidelines. yvette

i'm new here. i found this site during a search for tutorials and i love this site. for whatever it is worth i have downloaded lots of free stuff and i have purchased allot of items from vendors. i actually have paid more for my poser characters dolls than i have for my very own wardrobe this year! i have a bookmark called "my poser wish list" and whenever i see something i want to buy but i can't afford it right then i place it there and come back to purchase when i can. i think it is nice that you can still getting something for free these days. the items in the freestuff is wonderful. it kind of makes this place seem like a store with good customer service or something... the freestuff does not hinder me from buying from the vendors at all. i just cant get everything i see. 29.99 19.99 10.00 5.00 here and there adds up fast. i spent 200.00 on a spending spree a few days earlier! the freestuff is wonderful. please dont take it away.

cinnamon, no one is talking about getting rid of free stuff :-)

Heya LadySilverMage :) Wanted to pop in and try to answer your questions a bit :) Firstly, I was referring to a new guild effort in the works by some of the artists here (and I do mean in its very barest idea level of infancy). I of course cannot be sure of a final name for it, but I am referring to it for now as the Free Market Guild. Let me explain how it is different from the current Renderosity Merchants Guild. With Renderosity Merchants Guild, there are only about 20 or so artists who are "members". These people were chosen by the owners of Renderosity for their high sales. So it was more an award of merit, but somehow it got named "guild" and that may have accidently caused alot of confusion, and yes, even pain, for other artists who were not invited in, and who also keep saying, "guild... you can join a guild... I want to join, how do I join..." and no one answers them with the specifics, since the specifics are fairly snobby sounding when told in a bald faced way, meaning, "sell LOTS of stuff." Ok... so that is the state of affairs on that existing guild known as the Renderosity Merchants Guild. What some here have been discussing the last 3 weeks or so is a triple pronged effort. It will probably be alot more inclusive of alot more ideas too once heads have time to think it out, and once a brainstorming meeting can be organized to be called also to be able to be attended in an open chat session here of those interest. For starters, this guild would be a real actual honest to god you better watch out medieval style guild. Meaning it is actually OPEN to being joined. And not just by Renderosity artists and members, but by BBay, Renderotica, 3d Commune, PFO folks, anyone and everyone from various sites who have an interest in the guilds objectives, and who want to committ themselves to those objectives and help others reach those objectives. At this point there is no discussion of any membership fee, though there has been some discussion of ways for guild members to voluntarily "give back" as you will see at a later point in my explanation :) Some of our goals and objectives: Formed by a small group of the "highest ranking" artists in the overall community. These are names you know already, and I would dare say at least respect. Controlled, operated, and managed by the members, not by a company, or a store, or a particular website. Membership Fees: None monatary fees are planned so far, though contributing to either education or free stuff may in fact be the "fee" in the end. Voluntary testing services for those who wish to have their product tested by a double blinded panel of artists in the guild in order to recieve a stamp/mark of approval. This testing is still up in the air as far as what criteria, but a good system might be a checklist that is run down of basic things, each one having a certain number of points attached, and then one gets a total points value, and from there a grade. The idea is for any artist selling anywhere, or even free stuff artists who give away their work, to have a way to have it tested independently for good quality. You know, basically Kid Tested, Mother Approved, sort of Good Housekeeping type seal. We aim to have this testing available to all artists, not just guild members, though alot of how many items we can test will depend on how many members there are able and available to do testing :) Another goal is in fact revolving around free stuff, and there has been alot of opposition to this goal and controversy, even a threat (later retracted) to ban those who would join such a guild, and I guess there will continue to be controversy. The goal is simply to release into free stuff excellent quality merchandise by the guild artists, as they have time, can afford it (since so many of the artists actually derive their literal money they live off of from making products for Poser), and feel like it. If these items released to free stuff happen to be a better crafted solution that saves customers from spending money on a product which is being sold somewhere that is inferior, then the goal has been served, as well as the community. Another goal under discussion is centering around some of the very top artists, whose effort this guild idea is, to share some of their "trade secrets" with others, so that anyone who wishes to make better quality things, either for sale, for free, or just for themselves, will have a chance to actually learn if they put their back into it and take that opportunity. The overall goal and motive of this guild would be to encourage the release of better quality items through any tool at our disposal, be it training, voluntary reviews, or out and out rabid "competition" through the release of superior items crafted to replace an exceedingly poorly crafted item, so as to offer an alternative for those seeking such an item. The reason this has not been made public before now, is that it is a VERY serious idea and plan, and therefore is taking real planning. It cannot be swiftly decided who even initially qualifies for an invitation to a meeting on the concept, since we are not going to use dollar value sold as our criteria of who is good or not good. However, since the existence of such an idea being worked on has been made public, before others misunderstand its intent, having heard all sorts of panicced fears out of other artists who are speaking in fear and ignorance, it is best to try to describe the thought processes going on so far. Hope this helps answer a few questions.

It can't be all that exclusive - they let me in. ;] Er... A secret freestuff forum. Coolness. Er... what do you do with people like me who post both store items and freebies? We obviously know too much. Must be spies and espionage agents. snicker "Does that mean that not everyone can contribute to the store? That only a few are allowed to do so?? Who is beholden to whom?? " Nah, Silvermage. So far as I can tell, anyone can contribute to the marketplace. Only requirement for membership is that one produce something the want to sell, that makes it through store testing.

Thanks Mehndi for that. But I'm wondering now, does that all free stuff will then have to be approved or is this "guild" going to be seperate from 'rosity?

This guild is SEPERATE from Renderosity :) As I said, it is an open call for ALL artists of any site to better themselves and their work, and serve their customers, or fans of their products even given away for free, more richly. Things will go on as usual here with Renderosity, and with other sites too no doubt. Anyone can sell, anyone can put things in free stuff, anyone can post to almost any forum, all that :) But with this guild, if you so wished it, even if not a member, you could send a copy of your product, identifying information as to who made it would be temporarily removed, and have it put out to a little rotating double blind testers panel, to go over. Then they give it a Free Market Guild seal of quality, and send you a lovely little logo image you can then add to your images to advertise your that product with :) I figure it should help sales of those artists who bear such a seal for independent testing, and even raise the download rate of those artists who are choosing to give something away :)

I think I'm understanding this... but lemme check... so, this "guild" would be a group of invited members, OFF site, so seperate from the existing "communities/forums/websites" where they would share their knowledge/experience/secrets in order to improve their own skills... then this group would voluntarily have their products tested blindly by a group of guild testers, and when the testers have said "Yay, you're stuff is good." they would be allowed to advertise that fact... with as you mentioned a graphic or whatever, that then would either be offered for free somewhere, or sold wherever they'd like to offer it for sale? So that you'd have a way of knowing that those selected products meet a certain standard? The only thing I'd want to know is what if you're not invited into the guild, but you'd like to have your own products tested so that you could say they meet those standards... I mean it would be a benefit for a LOT of vendors to be able to say "Hey, my stuff is good... look, see my fancy sticker! I've been appoved!"... I think this is a great idea, if it's what I think it is... except in the respect that not everyone would be able to have their products rated... it could be something that did cost something to be a member... such as a certain percentage of the cost of the product or something, so that you wouldn't have to pay out just to have your product tested and find out that it's not good enough, but then if it IS good enough you haven't wasted any money... but then you could argue that you've wasted the time of those who've had to test it... anyway... I think this is a good idea... I mean as a customer, I'd like to know that something I'm planning on spending my money on will be what I expect it to be... I'm kind of glad that this was brought out into the public, even though it isn't a completed idea... I find it interesting... so I'd kind of like to know as things are updated... I really hope that the idea doesn't get killed by cynicism... hmm... did I spell that right... okay, I'm gonna go finish eating my muffin now... mmmmmm... muffin.... :)

Just wondering if you could actually do a double-blinded test on certain people's products. By this I mean that some people have such distinctive styles that their stuff is instantly recognizable to anyone who spends the slightest bit of time on any of the forums. I do not think it would be possible for the testers to be truly blind when testing these products. An interesting problem. Daio, who has to review experimental designs and the like almost daily.

hmmm.... if it is going to be seperate from 'rosity then why is it being discussed on a board that not everyone participates in? It seems as if it will be made up current 'rosity venodrs or else the discussion would be taking place in the "open" so to speak...

Does this have anything to do with the fact that Curious Labs is adding a "market" to Poser?

Heya Cin, to answer a few of your questions :) Yes, under the current plan, ANYONE could submit his work for voluntary testing. Membership is not needed for that. However, where membership does come into play is in having enough manpower to manage to do testing of more than a few things at a time, since we would probably primarily be turning to in house testers/members to ask them to volunteer to pitch in on this effort. Invitation Only? Why NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I would NEVER be involved in anything like that, ever ever ever. The criteria for joining has not yet been totally worked out. Alot of it has to do again with "quality of work" and being committed to guild ethics of quality in all one does. In the beginning (sounds like the bible almost... heh), of course, to try to find some folks to even join, we are going to have to send out some invitations, along the lines of, "Dear Traveller. We congratulate you for all you do for the community to give back, and to uphold the HIGHEST of quality standards in your own work while doing so. We would like to invite you to join us in a new guild being formed called The Free Market Guild. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask them!" etc :) Daio, to try to answer you... the answer is not such good news. Yes, some of us have recognizable styles. It cannot be helped at all. For example, as my granny would have said, "I would know Thorne's hide in a tannery." ;) So... in this case, one must be a calm ethical and good hearted professional, and go forward, chin up, and test with similar ethics to the way doctors treat patients, and firement treat those they rescue. You just do not allow yourself to fall to temptation. Ethics... ethics will be a part of this effort. Being committed to good sound fair guild ethics. Now... if something were submitted and then it was found that it had so many problems that in good conscience one could not go forward with giving it the seal, this is the procedure I would try to put forward to you all. First a letter trying to explain to the person why it was rejected, the areas it did not meet guidelines would be sent out, with suggestions on how to actually go about fixing these problems, so they can then fix it and resubmit :) Having readily availalbe to all public tutorials we can refer the person to will help alot there I am hoping. Secondly, we go back to those doctors ethics. You shut your mouth, and you keep your mouth shut. It is not our place to humiliate a soul. It is a private matter always. No one need ever know.

Oh dear, more questions to answer ;) LadySilverMage... the reason it began in private ICQ and emailed talks is because that was most convenient for those who had the idea I guess. Honestly... I am not the originator of the idea... and it is unfortunate it has come out in the open before a good set of bylaws could be published, a brainstorming session inviting over various folks from all communities could be initiated, etc, to get more high minded goals and needs of the community met in the initial idea. But... since as they say news travels fast, this got leaked straight into the two merchants forums here, and a good sized discussion got begun ;) Now it is more a matter of me personally choosing to speak to thoughts on it, not as an actual representative of this, so much as attempting to alleviate fears some have had, and to explain to others just why, etc. So that explains why my posts are here, at Renderosity... since this is where I sort of hang out and post. I know the idea had been to get the ducks in a row so to speak, get up a lovely well thought out, well explained document, and go around to everyplace one could find to post it, informing all of this new Arts and Crafts Movement, and letting all know they may be one of us :) Poppi, no, beholden to NO ONE. NO ONE means Curiouslabs, though if individual developers at Curiouslabs and Daz wished to join up as members, they would be welcomed with open arms, since they are fine developers who set high quality standards in most things they do :)

Oh... one more question I notice that I failed to answer, sorry Cin :( You asked about a way to compensate testers for their time. See what I mean about not yet being very far down the road on getting this all worked out here? ;) That discussion had not yet come up. I think... and this is just me very literally thinking out of the seat of my pants here, that I would personally, gladly consent that if anyone testing my work wished to keep a copy for themselves, they would be welcome to do so, as payment. However... alot about this idea is about FREEDOM and CONSENT... so if one sent in something and said, "but I would prefer you not keep it after you are done, but could it please be tested anyway..." I know that I personally would delete the product from my own hard drive honorably, and it would never once interfere with my ability to make a value judgement on quality :)

Well, now. This sounds like a good thing.

Mehndi... now you're reading my mind... well not really, 'cause I mentioned it, but after I did I thought to myself "Hey... testing something and then getting to keep it would be a pretty good payment." I've tested out a couple of things (literally a couple, as in 2!) for vendors who shall remain nameless, but if you look in my gallery you'll figure it out. And I got to keep copies of them, which frankly I was just glad to be allowed to help test them out, and if I had been asked to delete them, well I WOULD have, but I wouldn't have been happy about it... but then I also would've gone and bought them as soon as I had the money... sheesh I'm so poor...

all right, hold the phone. in any store, in any mall, or by itself, there's a back room for employees only. customers don't go there. employees go there and they have meetings, and they discuss business plans and other stuff that customers are not privy to. (they eat their lunch there and whatnot, as well, but obiviously that doesn't apply here.) they discuss policies and sales and advertising etc etc. are you gonna have a spazz now that stores have secret meetings in back rooms? you know what they're plotting in there? how to sell you stuff. you wanna run in and bust 'em? so that's what the big secrety mystery forum is for: the employee back room. if something gets screwed up in the store, the vendors run there and yell and jump up and down for somebody to fix it before we all embarass ourselves and make the customers wonder if we're a buncha incompetent goons running things, here. you know how customers get upset over the least little detail going wrong. perception of quality, etc etc etc. so far, i havent seen a big conspiracy to put subliminal messages in the forums to make you buy more stuff. or any bill-gate-like plans to force you to pay for stuff even if you don't buy it. honestly, people, store goings-on are really rather boring, and why do you wanna be bothered with it, anyway? now as for this guild idea.... i did have an idea that the commercial poser artists (at least the independent ones, if not all of 'em) should band together in some kinda group who could pool resources like lawyers and accountants whatnot, should any of the group need them. which would probably mean the membership would be a paying one, which has its own problems. but i take it, mehndi, that your group doesnt have any plans for anything like that.

Right Bloodsong :) So far, we are going to rely on an almost "religious" committment towards a good quality movement mattering enough to most of us, that we will have no problems manning the helm with enough ethical people to handle testing, writing a few tutorials to teach good development, since it would break my heart personally to not give that coveted stamp of approval without also offering a way to learn to improve so you can get it after a few fixes... etc. No plans yet to charge. No plans to be site focussed. This means all places are open to being accepted, be it Daz artists, Commune Artists, Renderotica Artists... even the artists on the little site (oh god I am sooo sorry, I cannot recall its name) that sells the absolutely WONDERFUL animals :) I know, I did not list every site... but my brain is failing me here due to stress. Stress. Yes... so Im gonna go sit down at a theatre and take a night off, rather than let Tammymc kill me with stress today ;P (Heart problem, sorry guys). I have been fired as a moderator of my forums, for daring to make a stand for quality, and for a new by artists for artists guild, which I guess they feel is an attack on the existing guild in some way, and hold me responsible for, since I willingly put my neck on the chopping block, and even when called on to do so, refused to name the names of my "cohorts" rather than see them suffer as well. Better to have ones head chopped off and go to Heaven for telling the truth, and for warning some of you in the various merchant forums of an admin level threat that has been made against anyone who would dare even join such a guild, than hold silence. If any of you joined us, you should know what you face is how I see it. He hates me, he will hate you ;)

InDepth Reviews has already set up an independent review board for vendors - at least for vendors who sell through Daz or 3D Commune. You can find out more at: http://www.critical-depth.com/Reviews/ First review of a product brokered at 3D Commune should be up in about a week. Jade

"Now... if something were submitted and then it was found that it had so many problems that in good conscience one could not go forward with giving it the seal, this is the procedure I would try to put forward to you all. First a letter trying to explain to the person why it was rejected, the areas it did not meet guidelines would be sent out, with suggestions on how to actually go about fixing these problems, so they can then fix it and resubmit :) Having readily availalbe to all public tutorials we can refer the person to will help alot there I am hoping. Secondly, we go back to those doctors ethics. You shut your mouth, and you keep your mouth shut. It is not our place to humiliate a soul. It is a private matter always. No one need ever know." Very good. Everyone wins here. jon

"honestly, people, store goings-on are really rather boring, and why do you wanna be bothered with it, anyway?" Y'know, I really could have cared less about any of this till bloodsong, etc., started telling us not to worry our pretty little heads. Those are the magic words for arousing suspicion, if you ask me. If it's all so boring, then why not do it out in the open? Everyone will lose interest in the first ten minutes, and you guys can have it all to yourselves again.

hehe! Hey guess what?! I post in the "Merchant's Only" forum and I talk about FREE STUFF too- I'm all about free stuff, the problem being that there is a growing number of items with price tags on them that should rightfully BELONG in the free stuff and not in the store. Mehndi and I and some others have been formulating this idea for the Free Market Guild for some time now. The ideas is simple, and would work something like a "better business bureau" for modelers. It's certainly NOT about money, or who we like or don't like, or what our own PERSONAL tastes in models happens to be. It's totally about QUALITY CONTROL and the lack thereof among some brokering sites. I have before and will continue to post ABSOLUTELY FREE a higher quality version of some poopie that I find cluttering up store pages, wherever that might be. I am not talking about personal taste or preference, or snobbism or elitism either for that matter. I am refering to a set list of tangible and absolute standards of quality that any model should rightfully meet before being considered a sale item, irregardless of whether or not I personally find the item distasteful, or I think it is the best thing since sliced bread. Either way, if it don't meet the standards, then it don't cut the mustard. I am very sick of the "let the buyer beware" attitude. I say, as I said in the Merchant's Forum, "LET THE POOPIE PEDDLERS BEWARE"- 'cos the Guild is gonna getcha...

P.S. It was my idea to begin with, and I ain't skeered to let anyone know because I firmly stand behind and try to practice what I preach. 'Nuff said. =};-}>

I LOVE this idea. I truly do. (Although, most of you know...secret anything drives me nuts...Never, ever was I surprised at Christmas.) I just read a thread about the commentaries in the marketplace only reflecting the "good" things on an item. Now, this new guild...well, I guess if you could display that logo, you would show that your stuff was decent. This is great. In a system like that, I would sell my own stuff. (I was turned off on our marketplace because of well, some of the stuff is not even any sort of quality....You know...those folks who are here a week, asking questions in the forums, and plopping up a market.) This could be a really nice thing. I am so very glad you all came up with it. Okay...first time since the WTC attack.... Pop...pop...pop!!!

P.S. again- Dear Mehndi, please feel free to post anything from any of my personal messages to you concerning this issue, that you think would help further our cause of quality control. And though I think trolls are the scum of the earth and would never post or "leak" private posts from the merchants forum, as has been done here in the past, my own words are MINE and I will repeat anything that I have myself said that doesn't mention names or refer to any specific individuals or items. It is WAY PAST TIME for Quality and Honor to become good things again, and let the almighty DOLLAR BE DAMNED- beware of any "secret police" who would try to ban you for simply practicing those virtues. The Once and Future Thorne

When I was a mod here there was more "hiden" boards: The Mods boards, the admin boards, etc. I agree that some kind of stuff can't be discussed in public and this call was for merchants who don't use to visit the merchants forum, sorry if this makes you all wonder what was discussed there. Best Regardings Virus Founder of the very very first Internet's 3D Artits Guild: The Propsguild :)

One last post before I head out ;) Some of you may have gotten emails from me in the past, but most of you never have. I sign my emails thusly, with words that define the very core of my existence: A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything. Malcolm X In answer to the In Depth Arts Review process, it is WONDERFUL, and I hope to God someday they get around to reviewing my own work that was released to them over a month ago for that purpose at their express request. But it seems they manage only about a review a week... I am hoping once I grow this movement, once Thorne and I do, since he has now decided to come forward and state he actually is the originator of it (Thank you my darling Pooka for standing by me in my time of need... I have been and always shall be yours too, no matter our fussing at one another at times...) anyway, that once we grow it up to a Big Kid On The Block as it were, we will manage to actually provide LOTS of reviews to all those willing and needing them.

Thorne does that make Mehndi the 'scum of the earth' for posting a private email in the C&D forum? http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=407825 Who it is from and what it was about is irrelevant.. It is in essence the very same thing as posting a message from a private forum.. Worse still if you consider it was meant for one set of eyes only. So one has to ask the questions.. How 'ethical' was that and would Mehndi have any qualms about posting private messages? Would Mehndi have any qualms about posting an email any of us send to her in private? Apparently not. Trust just flew out the window.. Just calling it as I see it. FYI Thorne I have the utmost respect for you and your work.. This is not meant as a go at you.. I just find it Ludicrous that a person who expends so much energy telling everyone how ethical she is does this.

It sounds good Mehndi, but what you are saying is that the merchants will also do the testing? So if you are not a merchant but want to help the community you will not be able to because you are not a merchant, or a producer of a product either for freestuff or for any store? If it does grow up to be the big kid on the block so to speak, and the vendors are busy testing products for other vendors, will there be products to test? I have a concern here for artists like myself that do artwork, but don't really produce anything in a model or a texture that they care to sell, rather they just use what they make for themselves. So we would not be good enough to join the "guild" or what? I'm sensing behind this enthusiasm a bit of snobbery or the willingness to leave us "commoners" out of the whole mysterious process. There is a lot to be said for having someone fairly new to Poser testing a product..as a matter of fact with the proper guidelines in place, there really shouldn't need to be a high level of knowledge for a lot of the products. Some yes, but not all. Testing should be done by all levels of users, because what is easy for someone that has been using Poser for a few years, may have a newbie totally confused and we all sometimes forget what it was like when we first came on board. Just thinkin' Pendy

Ok, so I lied ;) Swung back by my machine and saw the ebot notice in my email so had to go follow it to see what had been added... bad Lizzy. Turn off the machine if you want rest ;) Helen, as is stated in the site info here, and in most internet sites. You send out crap and hate via instant messages or email, and you can eventually expect to see it posted somewhere so that you come to face what you said in private. Otherwise, there are not witnesses to abuse and injustices on the internet. Even the presidents email was read, and publically published at a certain period of time not long ago, when the information was pertinent to an issue. Your feelings for me personally aside, we would welcome you into our guild idea, or welcome testing your work, since yu are a fine artist, and that is all that matters :)

Ooops, one more question I see ;) Now Im really overstaying the time I had planned to go and make dinner and go to a movie :) Pendarian, the guild is open to anyone who makes good quality things, be it stuff for sale, stuff for free, etc. So out of that pool of people, would come testers. Ideally, these will not just be merchants, but everyone who has time and wants to help out. And I would hope, as I have said, in time, once we grow it up a bit, to have a large enough pool of folks that we would be spreading it out a good bit, so that no one feels too burdened. I am not talking a handful of people in a little treehouse all off by themselves congratulating themselves on being part of a little exclusive club, but trying to grow a Revolution here guys ;) Something huge in time, with the hands it takes to man a huge ship so to speak. But all things must start somewhere. We have 3... ooops, I take that back, we may have 5 ;) Got two folks "applying" to get in via instant message a bit ago :) Thus do tiny things grow to large things. One person at a time. I am nothing if not patient.

Mehndi I have no illusions what so ever about this "you can eventually expect to see it posted somewhere so that you come to face what you said in private" None what so ever.. However just because it happens does not make it right or acceptable. There are proper channels for this "Otherwise, there are not witnesses to abuse and injustices on the internet." In the case of that particular email just put a filter on your email not to accept any more.. Simple... "Even the presidents email was read, and publically published at a certain period of time not long ago, when the information was pertinent to an issue." If the email was one in regards to his running the country. then could that not be considered a breach of security as well as privacy..?? Personal feeling.. well I really don't have any not having met you on a personal level. I admire your work.. However I will never trust you with a private message or confidence.. I would give you an example but I will NOT repeat any message not matter how tame in a public forum that is private..

Helen...This is a good idea. It levels the playing field. Talent becomes as important as "who you know". One of the major things I HATE about this place....there is not a level playing field. Those in power, of course, are determined to keep it...At the cost of secrecy and alientaion of the "unwashed masses"...I WILL NOT refer to myself as a commoner, thank you very much. Are you now, going to try and get Mehndi and Thorne banished? I knew, when I saw this post...my first comment was ...grrrrr....That someone would eventually stoop to trying to make this an horrendous offense. And, some of us wonder how come the recent atrocities were committed? Doh. Poor Precious Poppi