Quote - > Quote - When people start making things for themselves, then they see how much work there can be!!

definitely!

Quote - Only if all you're doing is the old wheel over and over again. Someone had to re-invent it several times to improve it to the point where it is today, or maybe you'd prefer the first version some caveman did thousands of years ago. But look, don't feel bad, others will step up, and maybe even do a better job than you would have done. Hey, you're better than me though. I wouldn't even know where to start or how.

Hehe. Its crazy! Even I struggled to get started. But who knows... I wish him / her luck!

I just think its time that we grow up and start making some proper stuff, instead of the same old formula again and again. Sexless dolly -> merchandise, and the pervs conjure up some fanny. Let's stop that now and make a proper dolly. There's a fairly sizable market for it, and enough people that would probably support it.

As I'd never heard of you or Lali before, I went to check out your blog. If that's Lali , she looks good, although to be honest, and just from what i could see, her "bits" aren't that much more impressive to me than what Miki 4 or Anastasia have. Of course, like I said, it was just from what I could see.

I don't criticize Hivewire or DAZ for not doing the genitals. Someone else will fill the bill, much as you did when you first started. Good luck with Project E and who knows make that will be the figure to put all others to shame.

paganeagle, you do realize that you don't control when a subject begins and ends, right?  You don't need to keep repeating mantra in an attempt to stonewall other people's opinions and ideas, yes?

There is no solution to Dawn not having genitals, it's too late.  The only hope now is a conforming prop which isn't a solution to the problem of having a decent figure with the genitals already built in.

That is the only acceptable premise (is what erog and I am arguing.)

We've got a million genital-less figures, good and bad and Dawn is now just another one of those somewhere on that spectrum.

We've got f***-all figures with genitals that are good, and just a couple that are bad enough to be unusable.

Every figure that comes out that wants to compete against V4 (and, for that matter, the best solution thus far, Lali-bits) needs to have genitals built-in to the geometry with a morph to turn them off. If your new super figure doesn't have that, then it's just another "also ran" and is antiquated. 

I take on everyones opinions, but....

Does Dawn have genitals? - No.

Is HW3D going to make any? - No.

If anyone does make them will they be able to sell them at HW3D? - No.

Will someone else make them? - Probably.

Will they sell them at a site other than HW3D? Probably.

Has a solution been given? - Yes.

Is there anything else we can do about it at the moment? - Not really, except wait fopr someone to do something for Dawn.

Will argueing about it at this point in time solve anything? Not really.

Does everyone have the right to their own opinion? YES!

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

So, why are you arguing about something that even you say has no solution??

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - We've got a million genital-less figures, good and bad and Dawn is now just another one of those somewhere on that spectrum.

there we go! that's what I mean

plus, do you know what a pain in the ass it is to construct something as detailled as a vagina in an inert mesh such as V4, or even worse: Dawn?

The vaginal openings will require JCMs for certain angles of the legs because the WMing will interfere with the mesh there. It not only needs correcting, it needs to be corrected accross a CR2 programming bridge, and you have to make sure that it corresponds properly with the right FBMs or master parameters. Not even with a conforming prop will you solve that issue. 70% of these issues will disappear when it is integrated!

Its just a major pain in the butt!

The only thing I can really suggest is that you both go off and get things started on the project you mentioned, get beta testers, get people to make things for her etc.

That way you can have exactly what you want.

And then.....

You will get people saying, why didn't you add this or that option tp your character.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Does everyone have the right to their own opinion? YES!

haha twit off course you do! This is not directed at you! 

I hope that this discussion might wake certain people up over at DAZ or Hivewire and think: ok maybe we should provide some options in future... And then with Dawn 2. There's no point for us in rolling over and accepting being ignored again. No, this is silly. its so easy for them to help us guys out, but for some reason, like DAZ, they just don't wanna.

I'm saying, Hivewire, DAZ, please grow up and sort something out!

The only person arguing here is you.

I feel like I'm having a discussion about what should and shouldn't be included with a new figure, for example, Dawn, since she's the belle of the ball at the moment.

You are the shining knight trying to defend Dawn's honor, but in truth her honor is not under attack...she is what she is, as you seem to be so very eager to constantly point out.

Perhaps the subject merits it's own thread, I'll concede to that.

Hmm... yeah.

Okay, how about this.  Build a new Pelvis mesh, more dense in the center where you'd need the polys to make the gens but have the outside points match exactly to where it would match up to the thighs and hip and set it up as a switchable geometry.  You don't have to worry about the prop not sitting right or falling off.

For filling in the morphs one could build a different, temporary copy of Dawn and use Copy Morphs From to grab the morphs from old Dawn to gen-crotch Dawn.  Where the verts are identical, it should be an indentical copy.  I attempted this with success when fooling with Roxie's disposable lashes on a version with the lashes welded on.

I don't know if anyone feels that is too much work or not but there are many ways to approach a problem.

I know that!!! Lol.

It's an interesting discussion and probably need a thread on it's own to get the most out of it.

People will whatever for what they want to do, I have no probs with that, in the end it's all posing polys and rendering to make images.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Hmm... yeah.

Okay, how about this.  Build a new Pelvis mesh, more dense in the center where you'd need the polys to make the gens but have the outside points match exactly to where it would match up to the thighs and hip and set it up as a switchable geometry.  You don't have to worry about the prop not sitting right or falling off.

For filling in the morphs one could build a different, temporary copy of Dawn and use Copy Morphs From to grab the morphs from old Dawn to gen-crotch Dawn.  Where the verts are identical, it should be an indentical copy.  I attempted this with success when fooling with Roxie's disposable lashes on a version with the lashes welded on.

I don't know if anyone feels that is too much work or not but there are many ways to approach a problem.

I was thinking about that, even for V4. Do you know of any OBJ text-based editing software?

Me, a shining knight!!! I doubt it, I just don't see the sense in arguing over something that will eventually have a solution.

The original Mona Lisa doesn't have a red nose on her, but I can soon get a copy of a pic and add one.

Just wait and the genital option will probably appear.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

All true-but I think I am reading that the mesh is not good for such modifications- I don't want to put words into Ero's mouth-but that seems to be what I am reading.

Overall I am very pleased with the way Dawn bends-very natural. I do think that pre-neutering a character is plain idiocy-but that is my opinion

Quote - HW3D made their opinions clear in the development of Dawn, that is their right to do so as they did the work.

They said they had no objections to others making those options, so others are free to do so.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

One is "free" to try to shoehorn a V6 into a Gremlin.  If you are not a mechanic, it is easy to flippantly suggest one go ahead and do that.

The reality is, it can't and probably shouldn't be done and, should you manage to accomplish it, will ultimately be unsatisfying and probably silly.

The question on the table is why did they build a Gremlin?  Edit to add:  ...And how can we stop future projects from becoming Gremlins and be more useful to a broader market?  One way is to make a car that already has a V6 under the hood.

well anyway, I need to go eat dinner.

I still find it ultimately lousy that the 3DX community is being ignored... again. I wish the dude that makes genitals for Dawn luck. I'm making my own figure (and probably digging my own grave!). But I want it at least for myself and the comics, however, I have a feeling that a lot of folks at Renderotica will be very very happy! Maybe even here too. hihihi

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2871158

New thread for a broader and freer exchange of what "should be" on any new figure that anyone may be working on.  I've jotted down the big ones, but I know stuff is missing and I've got to get ready for work.

ero, Do you mean just a robust text editor?  Notepad++ is good and I use it often but it slows on anything 1MB or higher.  EditPad Pro has quite a bit of the same functionality and can handle very large files - it even has highlight matching now, a bit rudimentary but it's getting there.  EPP search and replace is superior to Notepad++ (sans plugins). It's my workhorse editor when I'm not scripting.

The question on the table is why did they build a Gremlin?

Totally disrespectful.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

 Actually- Dawn is NOT a She- but is a neuter with breasts. Sorry-could NOT resist pointing that out. :-)

Quote - The only person arguing here is you.

I feel like I'm having a discussion about what should and shouldn't be included with a new figure, for example, Dawn, since she's the belle of the ball at the moment.

You are the shining knight trying to defend Dawn's honor, but in truth her honor is not under attack...she is what she is, as you seem to be so very eager to constantly point out.

Perhaps the subject merits it's own thread, I'll concede to that.

 

You need to make sure it does not add any formatting -just "plain text." I've used Word for editing CR2's and Mac's Free Simple Text as well.

Quote - ero, Do you mean just a robust text editor?  Notepad++ is good and I use it often but it slows on anything 1MB or higher.  EditPad Pro has quite a bit of the same functionality and can handle very large files - it even has highlight matching now, a bit rudimentary but it's getting there.  EPP search and replace is superior to Notepad++ (sans plugins). It's my workhorse editor when I'm not scripting.

Erogenesis, I wish you well with your project as at least your reasoning was sound and you had good points put over in the right way.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - ero, Do you mean just a robust text editor?  Notepad++ is good and I use it often but it slows on anything 1MB or higher.  EditPad Pro has quite a bit of the same functionality and can handle very large files - it even has highlight matching now, a bit rudimentary but it's getting there.  EPP search and replace is superior to Notepad++ (sans plugins). It's my workhorse editor when I'm not scripting.

yeah I've got notepad++ and its very good, but I was wondering for something like PhilC's PZ3 editor but then for OBJ files. 

You see you cannot just switch polygroups in an OBJ file if the mesh is welded. You need to define the faces and if the verticies don't match across two bordering polygroups, the mesh will explode in poser. So I need a OBJ editor to sort out the matching faces. Manually that is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

Know anything?

PS: gotta go now! be back later!

Quote - Erogenesis, I wish you well with your project as at least your reasoning was sound and you had good points put over in the right way.

thanks :)

I'm abrasive, not gonna lie, but you'll feel clean when I'm done scrubbing you.

That was one of my main points:

Why, oh why, build a 36.000 polygon figure if you only use 3.000 for a general shape????

Use non standard grouping and mat zones to make things even . . .
Sssst, Tony, Ssssst

Vilters, you include the extra polygons for the future and expansions and morph packs and custom characters.

My query is about the people that do make the sexy images like I do, and there's a few very talented and respectable artists in this field. It's maybe a small community, but still a sizable one, enough to add a few zeros to anyone's profits. And still nothing gets sorted for us. I wanna know why?

If that's a serious question, then in my opinion it goes like this - 'sexy' images of a figure can be created with or without detailed genitals, they are not a requirement. They are though for creating pornographic images - as the definition of pornographic is "visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings".

Now, if a company creates a 3D figure with detailed genitalia then it could - with reason - be seen as facilitating the creation of pornography. That alone could have serious enough implications, but also remember that this is 3D, Poser scaling is fixed, and turned an adult figure into a childlike figure is quite simple …

So you can see where this is going. Issues like media witch hunts, commercial survivability and plain morality are more relevant to this kind of discussion than arrogance IMHO :)

Quote - Sneakers for Dawn.

Vote with our modeling!  ;)

Those are great!  I love it!

You can't live like that though.

If you live like that, then the Devil has already won.

Also, why do the male figures consistantly come equipped with genitalia?

It's okay to have the potential for male child pornography?

Interesting.

Quote - All this arguing and not a single render!  For shame!

I'm just going to let Dawn speak for herself.  MST's Exotique for Dawn.

Both of those are so beautiful!  So top notch on the skin, indeed Exotique!

M4 did not launch with genitals, you had to get the pro bundle to get those.

I remeber all the posts about that.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Kids 4 did not launch with genitals.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Can't remember if Genesis launched with genitals???

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - My query is about the people that do make the sexy images like I do, and there's a few very talented and respectable artists in this field. It's maybe a small community, but still a sizable one, enough to add a few zeros to anyone's profits. And still nothing gets sorted for us. I wanna know why?

Is that a serious question? Are you new to the western society and it's norms of what is acceptable for PG audiences?

Hivewire decided to go PG, deal with it. Get a third party strap on VJ for Dawm, sounds like couple of them work already, and I'm sure there will be more.... 

Dawn wasn't made with being a digital inflatable in mind. So it goes. Bellyaching about page after page here is starting to be a bit of a turnoff. As much as I love sex, there is such a thing as too much in your face by too many peole. I prefer it with more privacy and intimacy.

Quote - Can't remember if Genesis launched with genitals???

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

In it's $100 pro pack, she was given a strap-on... I mean, a geograft.

Thanks Connie!! LOL.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote -
Also, why do the male figures consistantly come equipped with genitalia?

Actually, they don't. Most had a strap-on or a geometry switching.
Out of the box the only one I remember coming with a d**k is Apollo.

In the meantime, some nice dance stuff in the market.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

But the original Hellspaw..., eh, MilBaby did.

Yeah, they later neutered it's 3rd Gen incarnation:

"Congrats, you're the proud father of an, well, umm, "it" ?"

Oh well, ye olden days when Fairies could frolic naked through the woods and the Poserverse was still young and innocent.

:-)

My V4 Pixie still frollics naked in the woods!!!! LOL.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Someone asked about a morph for opening the moth. You don't need one. Just select the "jaw" body part and move the bend dial.

people have mentioned that with all the fixes v4 bends as well as dawn does. But all those fixes take up memory, hard drive space, and cash. (ok there might be some free fixes)

people complain about the models not working in software they weren't made for. (I can't use a subdivided model in x program) Isn't that like me complaining because your toyota tire won't fit my tractor. I want to drive my tractor. It's bigger, more expensive, more powerful and better for what I need it to do. So since toyota's tires won't fit, toyotas suck. (I'm not trying to pick on toyota. I have no problem with them or their tires. It was just a name. Fill in any name you want.) Lower poly models with the ability to subdivide are a comprimise between we need high poly for renders but low poly models use less memory. For some memory is still an issue.

people complain about the lack of genitailia. As i believe erogenesis said the number who want it are small. Due to the lack of genitals throught the poser/daz community I'd say that is probably right. I think Judy was the last to comw with one. Hivewire mentioned marketing to schools. In the US were hivewire is located, they would not be able to sell a model to a school that was able to be used in producing porn. It wouldn't not surprise me if there wasn't 1 or 2 other countries in the world that would also agree with this. They obviously think this market share is greater than those wanting genitals. They are a business and will follow the money. Of course they are also a small company still and may also follow their values. Why should they comprimise those to suit you all? You all obviously aren't willing to bend either.

As for why your 6 year v4 has more stuff than a brand new model, I'll let you guys think about that for a bit. I have RL stuff to do.

From what I understand it is morality issue and HiveWire 3D, DAZ 3D and anyone else fully have the right to make that call.  I'm very neutral on the neuter thing but I could easily see where are creator would not want to take on the responsibility of directly facilitating the figure being used in a way that approaches very dark territory.  I'm not talking about nude pin-ups.  I'm talking about morphs/sculpting a figure down to a child-like look and taking the risk of being libel for that sort of thing (and so on)  Folks also mentioned the PG, schools scenario and all of that.

None of the gens issue was cloaked in the massive freebie thread here.  It was pretty obvious from the get-go.  I personally, not speaking for anyone else, feel that I knew this going into it and I basically am supporting their decision.

I'm always down for tech-talk though.  So I'd be glad to help there in any way that I'd feel knowledable enough to add something to the discussion.

Quote - > Quote - But, cheap shots at her are simply unnecessary and look like nothing more than the competition trying to stifle her use. Dawn's rig will mature.  Dawn's users will adapt or not.  I say let her stand on her own and quit beating her up for the sake of beating her up.

It look very petty.

Well I am not taking cheap shots. I have a big fan base and I'm at risk of pissing some of them off, which I don't wanna do. People have entrusted a lot of confidence in me and I owe them. But after spending a year elbow deep in CR2 programming, Poser, DAZ Studio, DAZ legislation, the 3DX market, and 3D figures, I feel I know a few things about the things that make a 3D figure work. My shots at Dawn, are just pointers as to why she's just another 3D figure. That's not good or bad, is it?

I do hope Dawn's rig will mature, even though I don't want to get involved. There are issues with it. Have a look at the pivot location for her thigh bone to the hip. That is not the correct location in a human. Since it is a 3D figure, therefore not real, it might seem like a minor thing. But we are trying to simulate real humans, not so? I think it could become an issue for animators and people that will eventually make bits for her, or maybe not. Take a good look at the movement. It looks weird. that is definitely not a cheap shot. I do feel that that is a rightful and mature argument to be worried about investing time and money in Dawn, not so? Might be worth discussing at least.

 Some of this might have been valuable input into the creation of the base character.  

There was a thread about Dawn over at Daz's forums, now its gone.

Quote - I added this while you where typing.

Dawn, "as she is right now" gives the impression of being too low poly because there is absolutekly NO muscle definition in the mesh.

There are more then enough polygons, but they are not used in any way.

On a base figure, whose main purpose to be modified, this is actually beneficial. When you are modleing it is a milion times easier to add bulges then to iron them out once they are there. Keep in mind this is just the begining, you can't have it all at the very begining. Additional morph packs are yet to come - the figure has only been out for couple of days, this means they just finished working on her. Now they (and the rest of the community) can start on add-ons.

There are couple muscular morphs included in the initial morphs, and RawArt has made a few more.

For geom switching, I don't really see why you'd have to get the .obj into an editor, unless that editor is a 3D modeler.  As long as the connecting points to the pelvis and r/l thighs are exact, it is going to look seamless.  Even if the points don't line up, it's not going to explode.  There will just be visible holes, especially when things get bent.

If the morphs aren't re-worked for that area, it's just not going to have any effect.  The only time there's an explosion is when the polycount is the same but the vertice order is off and those polygons have no clear direction in which to move from one shape to another.  There could be other reasons, I suppose, but that's what I'd put my money on.

And what did you do on Sunday......

I spent a whole day talking about genitals!!!! LOL.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - And what did you do on Sunday...... I spent a whole day talking about genitals!!!! LOL.

I was just thinking the same thing.

Ready to move on... I think we've all made our positions clear (pun intended.)

Oh please do........... Lol.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - There was a thread about Dawn over at Daz's forums, now its gone.

Yes, well why allow discussion about a figure that can work natively in your software... That's just CRAZY!  Seriously, I find it ludicrous but sanitizing is not my call.  Its their private space and they can allow what they want to.