Hi all,

I'm using Poser Pro 2010 and my question is two fold:

First, I want a toon material that works differently from the one Poser provides.  The Poser toon shader basically allows you to set a bright color and a dark color.  If the light intensity at a point on the surface is above a certain threshold, then the light color is used, otherwise, the dark is used.  This means that in dim light, you just get the dark color everywhere.  What I want is to be able to adjust the intensity of the light source and have the light and dark colors both adjust accordingly, so that there is always two tones in the cel/toon shading.  I could not find a way to do this, and I think it is impossible with the material node types that they give you.

Is there a way that I am missing?

Second, because I don't think this can be done, is there a way to develop new material node types?  I think this means a new shader, if I am right.  I got this impression from looking at the code in the .cg files in the CG folder under the Poser Pro 2010 folder.  I have not been able to find any information on this.

Thanks for any input!

-digitani

AFAIK, those .cg and .xml files are only there for reference.  They were used in building the node system, but the program doesn't have any way to input them directly.   The program certainly doesn't use them when it displays nodes.  I've tried altering a couple of them to see if the result shows, and it doesn't change anything.

The .cg files are used for the OpenGL preview. They are written in Nvidia's Cg shader language.

Have you seen the toon shaders by olivier at rdna and the utility by shaderworks called toon for applying them in a couple of clicks and tooning one's whole scene. I use it for my comic.

Thanks to everybody for their input!

stewer: That makes a lot of sense, since that is the only info I found when looking up .cg files in Google.

estherau: I had not seen those before.  I was very thorough in checking out toon/cel shading resources a couple of years back, but have not researched recently.  Do you know if olivier's shaders function in the way I was trying to accomplish?  Do the light and dark color adjust their shade depending on the intensity of the light, or are the colors fixed and show for a fixed range of intensity?

The reason I am thinking about this is that the way the default toon shader works in Poser, you need to change the colors that you assign to light and dark for different lighting situations.  They don't adjust appropriately on their own.  For a bright, outdoor scene, your dark color will be only slightly darker than your light color.  For a darker room, you might want to leave the light color the same, but darken the darker color due to the smaller amount of ambient light in a room.  For a scene where the character is in a spotlight with no ambient light, the light color should be very bright and the dark color should be almost black.

See what I'm saying?  Wouldn't it be nice if the shader just chose the light and dark colors for you appropriately based on the lighting situation?

Thanks again for all your input,

-digitani

It's worth to have a look at Nightsong's shaders as well over at RDNA.

thanks, ghostman!

well the good thing about the toon shaders from rdna is that you can apply them all in a few clicks, even faster if you like a preset and save it.

But I am not sure about your question.  I think so.  Fairly certain actually.

Perhaps they have a money back if not happy deal and you could just try it.

The toon look i do in my comic at pacefiction.com isn't full tooning - kind of partial. and then I add a toon effect from photoshop as well.

try TOON-INK for linework. YMMV

I'm a fan of http://www.topazlabs.com

I like that too.  I have topaz adjust.  All good tools.

Toon Ink and Topaz labs stuff looks like it is geared toward still frame images.  May be good stuff, but I am aiming for animation, so it does not work for my case.

I am developing my own script now to set up toon shading the way I want, but the Poser API does not allow me to make it 100% they way I would like.  I think I'm close enough to be satisfied, however.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback!

Please show us what you come up with and let us know how easy and quick it is to apply your materials.

 What animation options are you using? If you are rendering to frames, then all you need is image editing software that supports some form of macro function. All of these still image techniques come into play then.

If no one has pointed it out, check out RWBY at roosterteeth.com. This is done in Poser Pro 2014, so the shader effects are done there, as is the animation.....  

Oh, I guess I did not realize that I could render to frames.  That is an option.  I have not tried that before.  Sounds like the entire pipleline might be a little bit of a pain.

Yes, I am so interested in RWBY, because I have been working on replicating the look of anime with cel-shading in Poser for years.  I always thought that Poser, DAZ, and Carrara would be great tools for producing that kind of animation, but I have found very few other people that were interested in specifically cel-shaded anime style animation in Poser.  I'm really glad to see that someone has proven that this can be done successfully on a production scale.

Personally, I think my cel-shading looks better, though. :-)

Quote - I always thought that Poser, DAZ, and Carrara would be great tools for producing that kind of animation, but I have found very few other people that were interested in specifically cel-shaded anime style animation in Poser.  I'm really glad to see that someone has proven that this can be done successfully on a production scale.

Personally, I think my cel-shading looks better, though. :-)

Actually Im agree with you about cartoon/anime /cel shaded in Poser or DAZ universe . This should be "best solution " for small or personal animation or comic projects . Since we dealing with 3D object which mean there is posiblity to minimize redraw session , every time camera adjusted . These tought bring me to DAZ / Poser universe anyway ;)

Several cool anime or toon figures like Aiko/Hiro - Cookie/Chip or 3D universe`s products already released ,  but enthusiasm about toon/anime/celshading render not really moving up ;)

I think a lot people in  Poser/DAZ forums  far more interest in realism than cel shaded/toon/anime render type .

Thats why we`re not hear so much about new techniques or information how we could optimize or sharpening our knowledge about anime/toon/cel shaded render .

About production in large scale , since a lot people in Poser/DAZ universe depend so much with contents ( figures, properties, motion pose and even shader presets ) i dont think we`ll be see serious project finished at least until a lot motion presets available or maybe when content developer release more consistent products ( cloth,uniform , weapon , accesories,building ) based on specific themes/ genres

Im not using Poser again since ver 6  and moving to DAZ Studio because for my personal experience its easier when dealing with toon/anime/cel shading stuff especially if you need to make serious preset`s  adjustment   . There are  several product like PwSketch - PwToon -Visual /Manga Shader or free toon shader ( i believe yours is one of them ;)) which offer variety how to get anime/toon render .

Thanks . english not my first languange . But I hope not giving who read this  some "Dizzy head" experience ;)

some people like a dizzy head experience.

Wow, Satria!  I could not have described that better.  What you said is exactly right.

The amazingly good support for anime style figures is part of what keeps me in the Poser compatible world too.  If you have done any cel-shaded work, I would love to see you post it. :-)

would have looked better with only one light I think -  oh well.

Quote - Oh, I guess I did not realize that I could render to frames.  That is an option.  I have not tried that before.  Sounds like the entire pipleline might be a little bit of a pain.

     Actually, not as much as you might think. And the options it opens up are massive. By saving out as frames, each frame is saved after it is rendered. That way, a long render that bombs out won't cost you the finished work; you just set the render counter to start with the next frame number after the last finished frame saved and start from there. Rendering to codec will force you to start an interrupted render over from the beginning.

     The frames you want would be uncompressed, and you have png, tif, targa, and psd that can support layers; this makes it easy to get the alpha masks for compositing and effects work. Also, psd would import into any of the Adobe editors, and quite a few others if you want to avoid them.

     The next biggest thing you get is clarity. Full frames uncompressed takes about as much space as an uncompressed video file. Once you back those frames up, you can create whatever video format or compression you desire. And if you want something else, just reload the finished uncompressed project file, change the codec used, and you have a different output without creating compression artifacts. > Quote -  

 Yes, I am so interested in RWBY, because I have been working on replicating the look of anime with cel-shading in Poser for years.  I always thought that Poser, DAZ, and Carrara would be great tools for producing that kind of animation, but I have found very few other people that were interested in specifically cel-shaded anime style animation in Poser.  I'm really glad to see that someone has proven that this can be done successfully on a production scale.

Personally, I think my cel-shading looks better, though. :-)

     Heh. There is a reason why whenever animation is brought up, you always here about 'The Poser Twelve'......suggesting that only twelve of us animate in Poser. RWBY has been showing that our tool is sufficient for the task, and Rooster Teeth would be the first to admit they aren't pushing the envelope.

     I have to admit I'm starting to get interested in cel shaded 3D. It's something new to do with the tools I have.....  

Here straight render using PwToon and DAZ Studio . No Postwork , except for comibining several images for posting here . . These images not really cel shaded , because my goal is getting smooth toon base render before doing some postwork in PS .If I want to get cel shaded render type , its easy with only changeng difuse upper/lower bound value to 50 - 50 :)

Because the original maker of PW toon went missing in action, I always wonder if PW toon will stop working one day in newer versions of DS and there won't be anything else to replace it.

Quote - Because the original maker of PW toon went missing in action, I always wonder if PW toon will stop working one day in newer versions of DS and there won't be anything else to replace it.

Yeah .. the "classic" and "annoying problem " with DAZ Studio are in every update sometimes make shader or plugins broke and need to be recompiled !!! I had great Olivier Toon Shader too . But my laptop right now seems cant handle Poser . Soon I have chance to upgrade with better laptop and video card , i might be give it try .

ertherau, that comic tone looks great!  It really feels like what you would get from a print comic book or graphic novel, rather than a cartoon.  I don't have 2014, so I guess I'll just have to look forward to that.  I checked out your comic too.  Looks beautiful!

satria, those smooth toon renders look awesome!  I have been specifically going for cel-shading, but those smooth toon shaders create some beautiful results.  I'll have to look into that too.  I can't put my finger on what they are doing to make it look 2D, but still smooth.

I especially like the sci-fi room in a smooth toon shading.  In anime the backgrounds are typically painted with a lot of detail, since they only have to draw it once, and I have long been experimenting with different ways to replicate that sort of background with cel-shaded figures.  I recently came to the opinion that the background does not have to be toon shaded to work with cel-shaded foreground figures, as long as the lighting is not too realistic.  That smooth toon shading could make a great anime style background too, though.

Thanks so much for sharing.  Here is an image I recently produced as an experiment:

Also, I have a cel-shading gallery on my website.

By the way, how did you post those pictures?  I could not figure out how to do anything but link to one.

Quote - By the way, how did you post those pictures?  I could not figure out how to do anything but link to one.

Hmmm... using attach file . Your cel shaded image look beautiful .. Those render via poser with your custom build shader? Maybe i should try using Poser again . Thanks for posting

I published a toon shader a while back that does the smooth or flat shading and is adjustable to anything in between.

Also, it's compatible with VSS so can be adjusted in one place and re-applied to your whole scene. Not sure if that solves the OP's problem but it's better than nothing.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3640547&ebot_calc_page#message_3640547

Quote - I published a toon shader a while back that does the smooth or flat shading and is adjustable to anything in between.

Also, it's compatible with VSS so can be adjusted in one place and re-applied to your whole scene. Not sure if that solves the OP's problem but it's better than nothing.

 

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3640547&ebot_calc_page#message_3640547

its look wonderful , could you give me info which poser`s version work with your shader ?

Thanks so much, satria!

Bagginsbill, how do I install your shader in Poser?  Also, part of my original question, as I recall, was how to create a shader for Poser.  How did you do that?

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/file.php?fileid=452431

The shader I published in the other thread works in Poser 5 and up.

The shader was added to one of my posts, but I'm re-linking it here.

There is nothing to installing it. It's a Poser material file. Put it where you want in any runtime and then use it as any other shader.

The forum here stupidly and obnoxiously does not let us put up files as Poser material files. We have to disguise them as text files. And I have to explain this over and over which I find incredibly tedious.

Make sure your operating system lets you see files types - if you can't see .txt and .zip and .doc in your file system then fix that by going into your explorer view settings.

Once you are no longer treated like a baby by your file system, save the file and remove the .txt extension.

Quote -  Also, part of my original question, as I recall, was how to create a shader for Poser.  How did you do that?

That would take quite a while. Are you interested enough to follow an explanation? Also, I simply don't have the patience to assemble complicated shaders by hand so I don't. I use my matmatic tool to generate the shader from a Python script. Here is that shader in its entirety expressed in matmatic.

def Gain2(x, c, r, g = .8):
        return Gain((x - c) * (2.0 / r) + .5, g)
clr = AGC(PMC(WHITE, "Color"))
specColor = AGC(PM2(PMC(1, "Specular Color")))
specValue = PM2(.3, "Specular Value")
specRoughness = PM2(.3, "Specular Roughness")
spec = Specular(specColor, specValue, specRoughness)
clrMap = AGC(PM2(ImageMap().labelled("Color Map")))
clr = clr * clrMap
toonShadowMultiple = PM(.5, "Shadow Multiple")
toony = PM(.7, "Toony")
toonMid = PM(.6, "Toon Midpoint")
toonSpread = PM(.2, "Toon Spread")
lineColor = AGC(PMC(BLACK, "Line Color"))
lineThreshold = PM(.65, "Line Threshold")
lineSpread = PM(.2, "Line Spread")
dv = .8 * Sub(1, spec)
d = Diffuse(1, .8).asNumber()
v = Gain2(d, toonMid, toonSpread)
toon = Blend(toonShadowMultiple * clr, clr, v)
diffuse = Diffuse(clr, dv)
output = Blend(diffuse, toon, toony) + spec
line = Gain2(EdgeBlend(0, 1, 1), lineThreshold, lineSpread)
output = Blend(output, lineColor, line)
View(GC(output))

Note that the absurd formatting is the work of the forum, not me.

The key to the toon effect is alteration of the diffuse response using the gain function.

http://www.gmlscripts.com/script/gain

I extend the gain function in my script with the definition of gain2. The traditional Perlin gain function increases or decreases the slope of the curve, while keeping the midpoint (x = .5) unchanged. The curve pivots around y = x = .5.

My gain2 version allows us to move that central pivot value to be anywhere we want, as well as to concentrate the gain effect in a smaller area, producing a tighter transition.

The pivot value is toonMid. The width of the altered transition is in toonSpread.

This is the heart of the shader:

d = Diffuse(1, .8).asNumber()
v = Gain2(d, toonMid, toonSpread)

Thank you so much, Bagginsbill!  You are awesome.

You have given me enough information that  I think I can go off and learn on my own for quite some time.  Researching on my own before I had no idea what to do to create my own shader, because there seems to be absolutely zero info out there about creating shaders for Poser specficially.

Also, its possible that your shader will do what I want already, so maybe I don't need to do that, but I'm a programmer too, so I'm itching to see what I can do with my new found knowledge.  ATM, I have been rolling my own toon shading with a script that I wrote to string together about 7 nodes, none of which are the toon shader node. :-)

I'll try your shader out as soon as I have a chance. 

Thanks again!

Hey Bagginsbill!

I finally got a chance to get back into this and try your LLToon shader.  Its great!

The only problem is that it blows away textures when you apply it.  I started writing a script to apply it and then add the textures back in afterwards automatically, but then I looked into VSS.  I'm wondering now if it is a waste of time to write my script.  Does VSS take care of this?

Basically, I want to apply LLToon with a certain set of adjustments to everything, retaining any previously existing image maps.

Thanks for your help!

Yep that's what VSS does - apply a shader to many targets while keeping textures maps of each target. Takes a little learning how this works but the LLToon shader was already set up for it. Come back if you have questions.

Thanks for the response.  I could not figure out how to make it work.  After loading the VSS prop, I replaced the material in one of the template materials with LLToon by loading it from the library.  This just blows away the texture map.

I tried adding in an image map node with no image like I think the documenation says to do, but I did not know where to put the image map.  I tried hooking it up to the input of the PMC:Color, and that did not work.  I tried hooking it up to the Diffuse Color, where the image map is in the previously existing material, and that did not work either.

I'm using A3 and trying with the Iris material for now.  Am I doing it wrong?

Thanks again,

No image map goes into VSS, if that is what you are attempting.  That node is left completely blank, and when VSS is applied, it incorporates the image map from the model and adds the other shader nodes.

I did leave the image map blank.  I just added the image map node in there.

You said "I replaced the material in one of the template materials with LLToon by loading it from the library.  This just blows away the texture map."

The LLToon already has a blank color map (image map) node in it. What texture map was blown away when you loaded it from the library? Loading a shader into the template material is a normal Poser material loading operation and it will completely replace what is there prior to the loading. Loading the LLToon into the VSS prop template material is not the work of VSS, so nothing magic will happen. The work happens later.

The LLToon already contains a blank image map, whose job will be to get filled in later with the color map.

clrMap = AGC(PM2(ImageMap().labelled("Color Map")))

The Color Map node is part of the template material - ready to go. You should not be saying " I just added the image map node in there.". It's already there. Your comment that loading LLtoon "blows away the texture map" is confusing us.

Here are the steps.

Load the VSS prop. Load the template shader into it (LLToon in this case). See to it that VSS will be synchronizing to the figure and props you want by editing the Apply Rules. Now Synchronize. It will distribute the LLToon shader to all target materials and as it does so, if the target material has an image map serving the role of color map in it at that time, it will still have it after the synchronize, but it will be in the LLToon Color Map.

If the target material does not have any image map populated at the time you do the synchronize, then the image map in the template shader will be replaced with whatever is in that node's background parameter. In this case - white.

Is the last version of LLToon.mt5 from the other thread the most recent?

I'm attaching an example of LLToon being applied via VSS to just the Right Iris (Aiko's right), leaving the left as an image map directly in the Alt. Diffuse channel.  Why do you think the color is washed out in the LLToon Iris?  Am I doing something wrong, or is this just the way LLToon works?  The corneas are the same in both eyes.

I finally figured it out.  The reason why the color was washed out in the LLToon Iris was because of the Specular Highlight.  Once I turned that down to 0, it was fine.

Quote - Aha!  I see the problem now.  The LLToon.mt5 file that you linked earlier in this thread did not have the Color Map in it.  I looked in the other thread that you linked to and found a version of LLToon.mt5 over there that did have the Color Map in it.  It worked just as you described.  Awesome!  Thanks for taking your time to help me.

Is the last version of LLToon.mt5 from the other thread the most recent?

I'm attaching an example of LLToon being applied via VSS to just the Right Iris (Aiko's right), leaving the left as an image map directly in the Alt. Diffuse channel.  Why do you think the color is washed out in the LLToon Iris?  Am I doing something wrong, or is this just the way LLToon works?  The corneas are the same in both eyes.

Its interesting !!! You said about other file in other thread . Could you point me which thread you get LLToon.mt5 ? . Thanks . I ready to build new machine and I wanna give a try Poser again :)

I got LLToon from this thread:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2801137&page=2

There are several versions in that thread, so be sure to get one of the last two versions.

It is also being hosted on 3D Anime Studio now:

http://3danimestudio.com/new-free-toon-shader-for-poser-lltoon/

I also put up a version with my own parameter tuning to replicate anime cel shading:

http://3danimestudio.com/anime-version-of-lltoon-material-shader-for-poser/

I would love to see what you do with it. :-)