Please deliver feedback as I love to here what people have to say about my work!

**PS hope pics work now :D
**

Tuff crowd around here

Your half to show them a lot more then a wireframe.

I'm trying to get all my proportions corrects before i finish of and do the texture maps, then I'll post a better image.

New figures are always interesting. I'll be watching this thread.

At this particular point in time, you'd probably have better support for a male figure than a female. The Poserverse is littered with caucasions with enormous boobs.

Laurie

1. First : And by far the most important : Polygon flow should follow muscle topology.

2. Aera's that will strech when bend need more edgelines. => top of collars when arm bends down. Rear elbows when forarm bends. Front knees when shins bend.

3. Aera's that will shrink when bend need fewer edgelines. Armpits, front of the elbow bend; the rear of the knees.

4. Polygon distribution is very important. :> I see a lot of polygons in the forearms, => They are gona be out of work. Not required at all. A forearm has very little muscle activity.

5. Stay as LOW polygon as practical. => FIRST get the overall shape correct.
   Example. I see balloons. No breasts but balloons.

Sow exact front, side, top and bottow views of the mesh if you want objective feedback about the shape.

Happy Posering, Tony

Quote - At this particular point in time, you'd probably have better support for a male figure than a female. The Poserverse is littered with caucasions with enormous boobs.

I fully agree. If your figure cannot Out-Vicki V4 (with all her add-ons) and Out-Dawn Dawn then you are dead in the water at the starting gate.

A new male, on the other hand, would have very little competition.

don't listen to vilters.  a lot of us like lots of polys, and I think forearms can have lots of muscle and tendon definition - they are certainly not sausages.

Love esther

good start  like  to see  her  with skin  on and  texture

Quote - don't listen to vilters.  a lot of us like lots of polys, and I think forearms can have lots of muscle and tendon definition - they are certainly not sausages.

I also prefer figures with enough polys to work with. Since 64 bit operating systems are now the norm the obsession with poly counts has become a bit silly imho.

Quote - don't listen to vilters.  a lot of us like lots of polys, and I think forearms can have lots of muscle and tendon definition - they are certainly not sausages.

Love esther

Absolutely! Lots of polys please!

I agree with having lots of polys. I'm plenty satisfied with V4's 75k-ish number.

Like others, I'm weary of female figures being introduced to the market. I have too many adult females in my runtime as it is. I would definitely not pay for one; too many are or have been free.

Thanks for the imput guys!  

she was origonaly being made for a 3D / rended game in unity i'm making

((2D rendered characters in a 3D space.))

so i figured i'd subdevide her once shes done and retexture her and put her up here myght as well make the most of my work right?   lots of exelant ideas and feedback thanks guys.

-- yeah boobs are a devil to get right and mucles. I've downloaded tons on images to help me out their :D  becosue you HAVE to get them perfect.

I know theirs alot of girls on the market already since i have to model males for my game i myght as well put those up to when there done.

and dont worry she wont be as expensive as the $50+ V4 and other characters out their.

and I enjoy a good challenge. so it'll be fun to compete with characters such as V4. so even though shell be more reasonably priced i'll still put tons of effort out their and it seems more impressive to make a new character then to make an Ad-on.  anyone can do that.

thabnks again for the advise guys and stay tuned! hope to show more progress soon!

Actually listen to Vilter, easier to work with a low density mesh, polygons can be added for detail where needed once the basics shapes are covered.

I say go for it, dont feel like you have to make a model that rivals V4 or Dawn.

There is plenty of room in my runtimes for nice standalone models.

Yeah. You don't need to out-Viki V4 if you make a figure that's a bit different and interesting. Well, for me anyway. I don't need a V4 clone, V4 is fine for that. I'm always interesting in new figures if they're going to be a bit different though - female or male. There's a few new figures in development at the moment that seem very interesting. More is good!

I would like more males.

Forget V4, forget Dawn. Make the Figure as you like it to be. If it turns out bad, make the next one better. Has Vilters been missunderstood? I understood that low poly - thingy as "staring low Poly" - until you have set the final shape, then you can subdivide to give your shape more details. For the final Figure I also prefere a higher Polygon count.

 I don't think so. He likes a good texture map and a bit of displacement.

BUILD LOW POLY .
Build the initial shape untill completely satisfied with the polygon flow , general shape, muscle topology.

Because : Once you SubD, you can NOT go back.
Too many figures have been "lost" because the builders SubD too early and could not correct the base any more.

Look out for danger area's. The teeth are an example.
Or? You build them afterwards, or you build them realy Lo Poly, or fall in the trap and end up with 25.000 polygon inner mouths after SubD. The navel area and the ears are two more problem area's.

Before going on look closely, and study this example:
It is a textbook example of how a well build figure looks.
Look at the edgeflow of the polgygons following the muscle topology.

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/536626

Most of the promo pictures can be enlarged. The main body is build with SubD in mind, so it is only 6.400 polygons.

Also see the extra edgelines on aera's that will strech when bend; Top of collars, front of knees, back of elbows.

For morphability of such a Lo Poly figure?  Look at the promo's, they speak for themselves.

There is a LOW and a HIGH version available. Here the link to the HIGH quality version.

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/hair-extended-eva-v3-3d-model/536285

The meshes for the Low and High quality version are the SAME Low Polygon mesh.

The High Quality version has Higher quality TEXTURES.

In the end, it is texture you see, and it is texture you render.

They are awesome!  But I don't think they would look like that in poser, even if I did buy them for over 1000 dollars which is how much they are.

Yes Esterau, they are Turbo $$$ LOL. (499 for the Light version witht he same mesh but lower resolution maps.).

Did you see all the expressions close up? (That is a 2800x2800 picture.) You can enlarge all preview pictures !!

Did you see the rigging? (Not a Poser or DAZ rig)

Did you see how the uv map is used? He uses every possible 1/4 inch on that map.

But that mesh? ? With a W-Mapped rigging, and with Posers internal SubD. Holy COW.

All other figures (DAZ, Poser, or others) could go to sleep.

This is an existing 8.000 polygon Poser figure. (including eyes and teeth)

The image is a skin-tone test, a morph test, and an expressons test.
All figures are morphed from the same and existing 8.000 polygon mesh that all Poser Pro users have had in their runtimes for some years now.

All use the internal SubD of PP2014 set to 1, are renderd with Smooth Polygons ON, and the crease angle set to 180° on all groups.

All but 2, use the same texture.

One also has her hair modeled inside the original mesh.

Just to show that:

Lower Polygon meshes can be morphed, and can use expressions.

Tools used;
Blender to morph/scuplt. (I used both techniques)
Micrografx Picture Publisher to improve the texture.

**The dark skinned figures have 2 more options. (But they use the same texture as the 2nd from the right figure)
**

• A brown variation was added to the diffuse texture in the Subsurface Skin node.
• The diffuse texture was connected to the HSV Value node.

The big advantage this figure has, (after I reworked it), is the polygon / edge flow.

Happy Posering
Tony

That is impressive.  I wouldn't use them as is though.  I'd like to see a muscularity one with tone.  Also some of those girls would look better with more square shoulders ie not so rounded at the outer edge.

Hi Ester, I"ll make a bidy-bolder for you.
LOL ;-)
A bodybuilder that should be.

Want a pregnant too?
I"ll make some time tonight.
I"ll see what can be pulled out of them.

Or ? Any other idea's.

The TurboSquid model has too few polygons to give it much shapeshifting/morphing ability.  The mesh and texture stretch would be horrible.  Basic displacement cannot compencate for low mesh density when it comes to shaping.

One thing that people seem to forget, is that you can make a 3k polygon character look almost as good as a 300k one.

But... It depends on the application, and how much time you want to invest in it.

Poser is not the greatest at making a low poly figure look like a high poly one. The tools to do are not in the program, and you are going to need other programs to make stuff in it for. A 3k character in Poser sticks out like a sore thumb. So does a 20k one.

Max, Cinema4D, Houdini, etc can make a low poly figure look awesome. The difference is in definable creases. Poser does not have the option of defineable creases that other apps have, so a higher poly density is required to do the same thing. Poser does not have the rigging options the other programs do either. You can do complex rigging in Poser, but is is not the norm by any means.

Depending on how the character is going to be rigged in Poser also has an effect on the topology, and people usually do not mention this. The Turbo Squid character posted has decent topology, but not if it is going to be used in Poser. Your going to have a tuff time doing a muscular morph on that character without resorting to displacement. Displacement maps work fine for that, until you pose it. Then you are going to need different maps, which is not what the average user wants to spend time doing. Rigging it to bend properly with mophs applied is not going to fun either.

Once you have the general shape of the character done you are going to have to retopo it. And I usually start my retopo following creases, joint areas, etc. Subdividing it does not break it, or make it harder to work with. But you have to have the basic topology set up before you do subdivide it.

You will want to get the topology flowing right and keep in mind how you want to rig it right from the start. The shoulder, elbows, knees, etc will take some experimenting to get right if you are coming from a program with definable creases. If you want to include morphs like muscular, the topology will have to support it or it will look like a low poly character no matter what you do to it in Poser.

Try to avoid ngons at all costs, triangles are fine, depending on where they are. Something else you may want to keep in mind is texture stretching. Many people do not think about that when they model, and then UV it. How you UV it is up to you. Some people want as few textures as possible, most want more areas so you can have detail in it without using 8kx8k maps. There are some quarks in Poser that also make things like the eyes harder to make look right. A seperate cornea that you can turn shadows off on helps a lot as far as realism is concerned. Finger and toe nails are another area. They should be seperate meshes so they can be morphed easier without issues.

Another thing to consider is if the character is going to be used in a Physics Engine. There are some things to keep in mind, that rarely get mentioned concerning Physics. The number one issue people see in a Physics simulation, is wireframe crunching. And many people do not realize why it does it. Simple answer, is that the difference in polygon sizes causes it.

To make an example, if you take a plane and make it a flag, all of the polygons are the same size and use the same weight value on every vertex because of this. Now look at the abdomen of most of the characters used in Poser. There are poylgons of all different sizes, and the vertex map for the Physics engine is not going to be the same weight on every vertex. Poser has no direct way of making that map if the vertex spacing is not consistant. It would be nice to have a brush that considered distances between vertexs, but we don't. If you modeling for realism, then don't worry about Physics.

I got Poser Pro 14 and I'm having to change work flow and
learn new app's for Poser stuff but I'm getting there slowly.

but I have a quick question.

Does Poser suport all 5 Maps ?

What do you mean by "all 5 maps,"

All 7 maps of Turbosquid Eva could be used in Poser if she was a Poser figure.
Unfortunately, She is not.

Quote - What do you mean by "all 5 maps,"

My guess would be:

Diffuse

Specular

Bump

Displacement

Normals

And Poser supports all of the above.

Quote - What do you mean by "all 5 maps,"

 

I'm trying to get better at Blender
,close to what Blender calls them ,I think

Color Map
Bump Map
Occlusion Maps
Specular Maps
Disfussion Maps

I use:
Diffuse map
Displacement map
Alternate specular that has a Blinn

Never use Bump = fake => use Displacement
Never use Normal = fake => use Displacement

and yes my models will be used in a game physics engine but as pre-rended 2D images only so i dont have to worry about polly count and long downloads.

I hope my characters looking better, for its the firts tikme I've attempted building a 3D character :Dso i think its pretty good so far for i need to have it looks good but not spend half a year on just one character in game.

been buisy so havent been able to do much but here we go anyway.

still got a long way to go :D

going to spend all my free time over the next few ays to perfect her and then start work on a base for my male charcters.

I only have preview subdevide on I'm not dumb ebough to apply it until its completed. :)

I use game engines like Unity, and try to keep characters poly counts as low as possible.

4k is about all you usually need in a gaming engine. Any more than that can cause issues if there are lots of characters in the scene at once.

If you want decent detail, 12k is about all you need in a gaming engine.

Quote -
Never use Bump = fake => use Displacement

Well, I have to disagree with this ;). For very fine details, bump should be used. Some examples: pock marks in cement, fine wood grain etc. It looks better. Displacement should only be used for large details (where IT looks better).

Laurie

Maybe I'm missing something important in this discussion, but I'm going to throw this observation out anyway...

Isn't this the POSER Forum?

When we discuss things doesn't it make sense to focus on POSER and things that WORK in Poser? 

Did the OP suggest that he was building the figure for any program other than POSER?

Just wondering why we keep going back to discussions that have already been beaten to death.

No crime... no foul... no warning here. Just a few observations.

$.02

No response to this message is expected or needed.

I'm rendering it as a animated image in poser and then importing the image into my game and create the sence of 3D illusion,  so no matter how hi polly it is i wont have any issues.

I'm using unity as well to create my game.

a zBrush displacement map in C4D will raze the polly count real high
500,000 ,5 million etc etc.

Roxie's displacement map does not seem to rase her polycount ?
Roxie does not have a normal map.
Poser has the normal maps ,the purple ones ?

App's have diffrent names & terms & I half to learn Posers.

Quote - I'm rendering it as a animated image in poser and then importing the image into my game and create the sence of 3D illusion,  so no matter how hi polly it is i wont have any issues.

I'm using unity as well to create my game.

You could use any of Posers characters for a video.

Quote - Did the OP suggest that he was building the figure for any program other than POSER?

Yes, the op did, depending on how you look at it.

Quote - she was origonaly being made for a 3D / rended game in unity i'm making

((2D rendered characters in a 3D space.))

That is why I asked about what it was going to be rendered in, triangles, etc... A transparnet png sequence can be just as costly memory wise as coding the game to use the wireframe. It also presents issues with lighting, shadows, etc. The lighting in the game will be fixed to the lighting in the sprite renders for the most part. Camera issues crop up as well. You are not going to be able to pan to the side, as an example. This can cause problems depending on how the level is set up, and the OP did say it was a 3D level.

There is nothing wrong with doing it sprite based, I was just trying to clarify if that is what the OP is doing. Doing it that way does limit the amount of animation that can be included before it uses more memory than a wireframe rigged in Unity or any other game engine would.

Now that I know that it will be sprite based the only other question would be, if that is the way to go to conserve file sizes. And if the levels will support it in every senario.

Without knowing what the OP has in mind for the game scene and play wise, there is no way to answer that from the information given. We already know the OP uses both Poser and Unity, so one would assume that they are experienced at both.

Many times what starts out as a sprite based game, ends up being nothing more than a story board full a full fledged game due to the limitations sprite based presents.

@RorrKonn.

Poser only "reads" the displacement map at render time.
It does not increase polycount, that remains the same.

Displacement is also NOT in the preview, as it is only calculated at render time.

Yes, Poser can use all 3 : bump, normal and displacement maps.

Bump and normal maps are also calculated at render time, and give the impression, (the illusion of 3D) but actually do not displace anything.

Displacement maps in Poser actually "displace" micro polygons at pixel size level, and only at render time.

By increasing the size of the map, 512x512, 1024x1024, 2048x2048, 4096x4096, you can fine tune the detail of the displacement map.
At 4096X4096 you have 16 milj. micro polygons to work with.

But? They only exist at render time, and are not exported or baked into the obj model.

PS, Poser can read higher resolution maps if required.
8192x8192 was the highest I ever used, but it works very well.

Happy Posering
Tony

this is related to poser becouse the final 3D figure will be a fully riged poser figure that will be animated and released as a poser capable character. and this is more about creating a character for poser rather then my game, people just wanted to know what i am usign my model for. yes i could use any pre-made model but i prefer to use all my own content and assets beacosue it shows you have more sklill then just slapping pre made content together. I have carefully thought how i will accomplish this 2D in 3D technique and understand the issues involved. I'm trying to keep this thread simply about creating a character for poser and the issues involved. people should have a right to know why I'm making a character and what its original intentions will be used for. thanks everyone again for your advice and input!

Vilters :
"Roxie/Properties/subdivion level/Render"
Will the render # effect the displacement map ?

Displacment maps are good for none rigged meshes
but rigs & displacement maps don't go well togeather.
Any other maps don't go with rigs ?

Burn displacement maps for characters ?

ShvrDavid : I like ya game mesh.
When you said Poser can't do game meshes did you mean ,
Since Poser Pro 14 has all the game maps ,
Poser Pro 14 can do game meshes but older versions of Poser can't ?

or was you talking about something else ?

Quote - yes i could use any pre-made model
but i prefer to use all my own content and assets
beacosue it shows you have more sklill then just slapping pre made content together.

Agreed

Zak666Williams,

If you cannot show us pictures, then tell us about her features.  Will she be weight-mapped, is she for Poser, Daz Studio, or both, etc.  How many polygons, list of morphs, etc.

The model is crude and badly proportioned.  It isn't even as good as the ancient Poser 1 figures were.  I suggest you go back to "square one" and learn modeling, then study anatomy, then study existing figures such as V4 and M4 to see how they're put together.  

If your goal is to create a commercially viable product, you have a LONG way to go.  And you should be aware that Poser users are used to figures of FAR higher quality than this.

@blondie9999

Did someone brake your toys?

Quote - @blondie9999

Did someone brake your toys?

Nope.  It's just that I don't believe in telling someone a bunch of misleading B.S. for the sake of being "nice" or whatever.  If something is badly done, I'm NOT going to tell the person, "Oh, that's really great" or "Oh, that's looking really good."  

Likewise, if someone can't carry a tune, I'm not going to tell him how good he sounds and encourage him to pursue a singing career.

I don't know Bob Dylan ,Willie Nelson done all right ;)

from the wires I seen on here I'd just grab make human if I really need a new doll