Quote -  

Unfortunately, it's because now that Dawn is out, the main marketplaces are shoving her down our throats even though only 2% of people use her.  If your item isn't for Dawn as well as the other more popular figures, you can't even get accepted unless you're a top vendor.  It's a great way to alienate not only your current & future vendors, but your clients as well.  It hurts your sales & reputation in the end.  It makes me not want to even shop at these places so I just stop giving them my money unless it's for a figure I DO use, which isn't Dawn.  Personally, I think Dawn is fugly.

At this point, it makes me want to go back to modeling props instead of what I like modeling, dynamic clothes & accessories.  I feel my creativity is stifled by the multiple marketplaces' desire to force people over to a new figure by forcing out potential vendors who don't like Dawn & will probably never 'want' to use her.  If I ran my Real business this way, I'd be out of business pretty quick.  You have to have variety because not everyone is going to like or want a new shiny figure. 

As I've said, I don't use Dawn. I haven't even unzipped her to my runtime yet. Doesn't mean I won't, just that my focus is on the native Poser figures at the moment and developing content for them.

Now personally I don't think Dawn is any uglier than any real life woman who doesn't wear make up. Hell, even Alyson 2 looked better if you slapped some makeup on her. And let's face it, there are men out there who could slap on some makeup and look drop dead gorgeous,  so as far as I'm concerned, beauty is an illusion.

Also, we're talking about figures that are basically MADE to have body and face features morphed. Dawn IS a base figure after all.

I also don't feel Dawn is being forced upon me in the marketplace. Frankly, V4 WAS being forced upon us. You almost couldn't find anything for any other figure and if stores were actively discriminating against new vendors, then they had a BIGGER incentive to do so in thde V4 era than ever.

Quote - I think I see a more vendors slowly trying out Genesis than Dawn. Not a flood of desertions, just a kind of a gradual drift. Daz is giving the software and basic figures away, and people are trying it out.

Unfortunately, it's because now that Dawn is out, the main marketplaces are shoving her down our throats even though only 2% of people use her.  If your item isn't for Dawn as well as the other more popular figures, you can't even get accepted unless you're a top vendor.  It's a great way to alienate not only your current & future vendors, but your clients as well.  It hurts your sales & reputation in the end.  It makes me not want to even shop at these places so I just stop giving them my money unless it's for a figure I DO use, which isn't Dawn.  Personally, I think Dawn is fugly.

At this point, it makes me want to go back to modeling props instead of what I like modeling, dynamic clothes & accessories.  I feel my creativity is stifled by the multiple marketplaces' desire to force people over to a new figure by forcing out potential vendors who don't like Dawn & will probably never 'want' to use her.  If I ran my Real business this way, I'd be out of business pretty quick.  You have to have variety because not everyone is going to like or want a new shiny figure. 

I know what you're talking about, I left that place as a vendor and never want to come back to it or buy there again. They're so controlling. I simply hate the hype all these stores create around a figure that isn't even worth all the hype at all. Just because some famous names made her, doesn't mean she's good at all.

Quote - Did they specifically say the product was not accepted because of no Dawn support? Unless that was specifically the reason, I don't believe rendo will enforce such a rule. Could be the product was not accepted for other reasons. I would like more clarity on this. Because if they are not accepting based on no Dawn support, well then that is an issue. To be honest I don't think they will ever place that requirement on PA's simply because some do not even own the latest versions of Poser which she can only be used in.

It's not Rendo, but there are stores that are very controlling and put unbelievable demands on vendors and are very good at driving vendors mad and even detroy their business while doing so. Been there, seen that, experienced that, never turning back and I must say that this place is slowly heading that way. Vendors get less and less freedom, if you've been around long enough as a vendor you know what I'm talking about.

Maybe there's a financial/business reason why this unnamed marketplace you speak of is requiring new vendors to support Dawn? 

I don't particularly care for Dawn either, but I'm still building content for her. I don't care much for V4 either, but she's the figure that most of my clients use, so I build for her too. In the long run I'm just making things a bit easier for me anyway, as everything i build will be adapted to fit my own figures later on when those figures are ready for showtime. (at least the content that isn't licensed exclusively by the clients I've built it for).

If you build content as a hobby and want to do your own thing and spend your extra vendor money you earn on more toys for your hobby then use whatever you want. But if you're an artist trying to make a living then you have to build the content that sells, whether you personally like the figure or not. Otherwise you don't make money. 

I think its silly and self-defeating for a serious vendor to refuse to build content for a figure just because they don't like that figure, for whatever their reasons are. But that's up to each vendor to decide on their own.

 

~Shane

@ Ambient Shade

You make a good point there/

It is up to the builder to decide for what figure he wants to build for.
It is the builders decision, not the stores.

 

Then you are wrong , what was minimal adjusted in Poser was some of the joins parameters

that why exported cr2 clothing from DS working stright in Poser on her following all morphs .

and if you wonder where I know things then I tell you from the makers as we speak about on the phone .

 

I don't understand what the fuzz about where it was rigged .. open the cr2 and you can see anyway .

It is not perfect in Poser or DS  that why I hope future version will be done the way it should , until then I am having little fun with her :) 

Quote - Sorry, Joe, that's just not true.  It's never been true, and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone claim it is.

Even the folks from Hivewire never said any such thing.

 

 

Well I don't care much about Dawn base as I am doing my own stuff from it anyway , some of the poeple dont understand that the base looks the way it looks as it was made for better clothing creation , don't judge the model by the base ..so far it works best for me without much fuzz , in the last 2 months I created alot , since I am back in Poser too 

 

bellow you see all DAWN  characters with own clothing sets I created .. all characters , textures .. does it looks like the base ?  nope and it is only half of what I made 

 

for me personally a new inspirations and the best thing here is that I can create each for both platforms ..

Can someone have the guts to name this site that has this implied, you do't do it for Dawn it isn't accepted.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Thats some beautiful work, Mec4D. I've quietly followed some of your threads over at HW. Very very nice. Would like to see more work of this quality from other vendors and artists, regardless of the figure being used.

 

~Shane

 

Quote - Well I don't care much about Dawn base as I am doing my own stuff from it anyway , some of the poeple dont understand that the base looks the way it looks as it was made for better clothing creation , don't judge the model by the base ..so far it works best for me without much fuzz , in the last 2 months I created alot , since I am back in Poser too 

bellow you see all DAWN  characters with own clothing sets I created .. all characters , textures .. does it looks like the base ?  nope and it is only half of what I made 

for me personally a new inspirations and the best thing here is that I can create each for both platforms ..

Thanks Shane ,

I agree , and regarding Dawn it is just to early to judge ,  new super rigging in Poser for Dawn will not change anything at this moment , content provider need to change the worklfow to something totally new , DS native users can'r just export cr2 and expect it to work , I write all my stuff manually for Poser and use some basic parts from the cr2 , the morphs need to be created different way also , as Dawn in Poser have half the resolution , for some of my morphs I created new rigging with animated joins that fixed some things I did not like .

In short you can create anything from the base you imagine without restrictions as long you have some imagination and some knowledge .

and just becouse Dawn base is not the perfect one it inspired me to make something new from that , but that does not mean you have to do it too , it is personal choice , stick to things and do stuff you love to do , and enjoy your creative time !

Quote - Thats some beautiful work, Mec4D. I've quietly followed some of your threads over at HW. Very very nice. Would like to see more work of this quality from other vendors and artists, regardless of the figure being used.

 

~Shane

 

Ever notice how genesis vendors from DAZ always show up in any thread that discusses any figure OTHER than genesis.  We got it - you think genesis is the greatest thing since sliced bread and that yes, other figures could be a threat to your income stream if the creators ever got their act together.  I would think that they would be more concerned about how DAZ is splitting the genesis market with the gen2 female.

 

Getting back to Dawn...

Hivewire screwed the pooch by not having the morph sets ready to go on day one.  Just like the folks that did Michelle.  And the folks that did Antonia.  And SM with Rex and Roxie. And, well, you get the idea. 

Being former DAZ employees, they have also taken the same lacksidasical approach to the release of their male figure, Dusk.

I was around for the V4 launch - That launch was successful for the following reasons:

1.  Morph sets (V4++) were available on launch.

2.  If you knew how to make a V3 figure, you could make a V4 figure.  There was no requirement for a vendor to learn anything new, just dealing with the abortion that is V4's UV layout.  This is important, because most (not all) vendors, by and large, are very, very resistant to any requirement to move away from a Poser 4 production flow.  This is why we are still dealing with bs like material .pz2s in 2013, when that hack was dropped a decade ago. 

3.  The quality difference between V3 and V4 was very obvious.  Any figure coming out today isn't compared to V4 at launch, it is compared to V4 with all of the 3rd party fixes, which other figures that were contemporary to V4, such as the G2 figures, never got.

4.  The content sold at launch was pretty much sold as a loss leader.  I have gone back and looked at what I bought during the initial launch, and the prices were rediculously low.  A lot of $19.95 outfits went for under $5.00, which helped build up the V4 ecosystem.

We will never see another character launch like V4.  Now look at what has happened in the Poser ecosystem since the release of V4.....

1.  DAZ told the Poser community that they didn't love their money anymore, which extended the lifespan of the Gen4 figures. 

2.  DAZ's unwillingness (or more likely, their programming incompetence - can you tell that I have bought all their software at some point.) to make the golum run smoothly in Poser has retarded it's acceptance in the Poserverse.  V4 vendors continued to saturate the market.

3.  Clothing conversion software came of age.  At the launch of V4, PhilC was just getting started with Wardrobe Wizard and the Clothing Tailor sold at DAZ was (and is) a p.o.s.  Fast forward 7 years - not only has WW gotten better, it has been joined by Xdresser and the release of Morphing Clothes; as a final coup d'état, the fitting room has been added to Poser 2014, which means that V4's wardrobe (minus shoes) is available for whatever character you decide to use. 

This has a negative effect for vendors - why should I buy a $14.95 outfit for Dawn, when I can take a V4 outfit I already own into the fitting room and 90 seconds later, that outfit is native for Dawn.  It certainly isn't perfect, but browse the galleries sometimes - the enduser isn't looking for perfection (regardless of what some forum members believe), they are looking for "good enough", especially when you consider how cheap the Poser/DS user base is.

3.  V4 content harvesting is going to another level with the release of Texture Transformer.  Now I can repurpose V4 texture content to Dawn (and soon, other figures). 

This has a negative effect for vendors - Why on earth should I buy a dial-spun character? - I can spin a dial, slap a previously purchased V4 skin on Dawn, have her slide into one of V4's outfits and away I go.

If vendors expect me to buy their characters and clothing, they are going to have to seriously up their game. 

Quote -   This has a negative effect for vendors - why should I buy a $14.95 outfit for Dawn, when I can take a V4 outfit I already own into the fitting room and 90 seconds later, that outfit is native for Dawn.  It certainly isn't perfect, but browse the galleries sometimes - the enduser isn't looking for perfection (regardless of what some forum members believe), they are looking for "good enough", especially when you consider how cheap the Poser/DS user base is.

 

I guess it all depends on your quality requirements..  For me the 90 second conversion is a myth as far as being equivalent to something I would purchase.  I cant speak for what people feel their time is worth.. but for me 14.95 is way less than an hours work and it takes way more than an hour to get a conversion to a quality level equivalent to a purchased product.  Its too bad there is no way to legally distribute/sell 3rd party conversions... to me that would be a huge opportunity for someone and I would expect there is quite a market.   Auo-conversions will never get to a level that is comparable to natively designed product.  Every item will need individual attention and time, thats just the nature of the beast.  If the tech can overcome or circumvent that reality it really will be the next leap forward

Quote - I guess it all depends on your quality requirements..  For me the 90 second conversion is a myth as far as being equivalent to something I would purchase.  I cant speak for what people feel their time is worth.. but for me 14.95 is way less than an hours work and it takes way more than an hour to get a conversion to a quality level equivalent to a purchased product.  Its too bad there is no way to legally distribute/sell 3rd party conversions... to me that would be a huge opportunity for someone and I would expect there is quite a market.   Auo-conversions will never get to a level that is comparable to natively designed product.  Every item will need individual attention and time, thats just the nature of the beast.  If the tech can overcome or circumvent that reality it really will be the next leap forward

Vendor quality requirements and time spent making a product are vendor issues, not enduser issues - the issue end users face is "Is the product available for the figure I want to use." 

The morph brush, Wardrobe Wizard, Xdresser, and Poser's fitting room didn't come about to help vendors - they came about to help endusers deal with the fact that most vendors have no interest in making content for any figure not named Victoria 4. 

As an example, I am storyboarding a graphic novel & I need everyone in the same uniform.  Without these programs, I'd be stuck with 1 set of figures.  I have been freed from that - I use the figures I want to use. I am no longer limited by vendor's taste, or lack thereof - and that is wonderful.  It will be hard on vendors as more and more people avail themselves of clothing conversion utilities, but quite frankly that is their problem, not mine.

Quote -
Vendor quality requirements and time spent making a product are vendor issues, not enduser issues - the issue end users face is "Is the product available for the figure I want to use." 

The morph brush, Wardrobe Wizard, Xdresser, and Poser's fitting room didn't come about to help vendors - they came about to help endusers deal with the fact that most vendors have no interest in making content for any figure not named Victoria 4. 

As an example, I am storyboarding a graphic novel & I need everyone in the same uniform.  Without these programs, I'd be stuck with 1 set of figures.  I have been freed from that - I use the figures I want to use. I am no longer limited by vendor's taste, or lack thereof - and that is wonderful.  It will be hard on vendors as more and more people avail themselves of clothing conversion utilities, but quite frankly that is their problem, not mine.

This assumes most people have PP2014, which they don't. 

WW has been around for quite a while now.

The cloth room has been around even longer.

What percentage of end users do you suspect use the cloth room? 

I see the fitting room more as a tool to assist vendors in clothing creation and making their clothing available to more figures (if they choose), than I see it as being a tool for the end users to not have to support vendors. Because as MeatSim's post suggests, more people are willing to pay for instant results than they are willing to invest time and energy (and frustration) in making something fit what they want it to fit. 

When you have a project with a deadline, how much of your time are you willing (or able) to invest in converting content just to get one scene completed? Especially in the freelance world, you often get a project and a deadline of a couple days. It can take that long just to set up a scene the right way. 

 

~Shane

What's Dawn?

Quote - > Quote - I guess it all depends on your quality requirements..  For me the 90 second conversion is a myth as far as being equivalent to something I would purchase.  I cant speak for what people feel their time is worth.. but for me 14.95 is way less than an hours work and it takes way more than an hour to get a conversion to a quality level equivalent to a purchased product.  Its too bad there is no way to legally distribute/sell 3rd party conversions... to me that would be a huge opportunity for someone and I would expect there is quite a market.   Auo-conversions will never get to a level that is comparable to natively designed product.  Every item will need individual attention and time, thats just the nature of the beast.  If the tech can overcome or circumvent that reality it really will be the next leap forward

Vendor quality requirements and time spent making a product are vendor issues, not enduser issues - the issue end users face is "Is the product available for the figure I want to use." 

The morph brush, Wardrobe Wizard, Xdresser, and Poser's fitting room didn't come about to help vendors - they came about to help endusers deal with the fact that most vendors have no interest in making content for any figure not named Victoria 4. 

As an example, I am storyboarding a graphic novel & I need everyone in the same uniform.  Without these programs, I'd be stuck with 1 set of figures.  I have been freed from that - I use the figures I want to use. I am no longer limited by vendor's taste, or lack thereof - and that is wonderful.  It will be hard on vendors as more and more people avail themselves of clothing conversion utilities, but quite frankly that is their problem, not mine.

 

I think you are missing what I'm saying... I'm not speaking about vendor time at all..  Maybe as a consumer I'm odd.. but as a consumer I am NOT satisfied with a '90 second' conversion just because I can cram a figure into an outfit that was made for v4.  To replace purchased content, converted content needs to approach(not necessarily reach) the level of quality of use that I expect from content that i purchase.  Yeah sometimes you can make something work for one scene, from certain angles if you dont pose the figure too much.. but mostly that 90 second conversion yeilds something that I wouldnt even bother downloading for free.  All I'm saying is that the time required to get an acceptable conversion is mostly going to be worth more to me than the 15 or even 25$ I spend to get a quality purchased item that fits the figure natively.  I'm not a particularly high paid person, I dont have the kind of job that lets you be a single income family or anything like that, but if you take a look at content cost and compare it to an hourly wage.... new content that works is better than old content that you have f with to get what you want out of... Unless you happen to enjoy f. ing around with conversions.. then thats just part of your fun... to me its work though

Quote - What's Dawn?

http://hivewire3d.com/dawn-starter-pack.html

> Quote - This assumes most people have PP2014, which they don't.  > > WW has been around for quite a while now. > > The cloth room has been around even longer. > > What percentage of end users do you suspect use the cloth room?  > > I see the fitting room more as a tool to assist vendors in clothing creation and making their clothing available to more figures (if they choose), than I see it as being a tool for the end users to not have to support vendors. Because as MeatSim's post suggests, more people are willing to pay for instant results than they are willing to invest time and energy (and frustration) in making something fit what they want it to fit.  > > When you have a project with a deadline, how much of your time are you willing (or able) to invest in converting content just to get one scene completed? Especially in the freelance world, you often get a project and a deadline of a couple days. It can take that long just to set up a scene the right way.  > >  ~Shane

Most of the end users aren't willing to move beyond Load, Conform, "Make Art".  There's a poll up on RNDA asking what they used Poser for and over 70% said they used it for making stills with 1 figure.  And there is nothing wrong with that; this is a hobbyist market after all. 

However, I am moving beyond NVIATWAS and I am tired of being held back by the luddites.  The correct answer to "Can you help me with this Poser 7 problem?" is "Yes I can - get a copy of Poser 10 or 2014 and RTFM."  Lots of tools have been added to Poser to address common items like poke-thru, but the users won't use them.

How many people use the cloth room?  Not enough - once a user realizes how easy it is, they do tend to kick themselves for not going into the room sooner.

On the other hand - I didn't know I could use the walk designer to have a character walk around a set, save each of the frames as a universal pose until last month.  SHAZAM! I now have huge library of poses available for any of my characters in less time than it would take me to make more than 1 or 2 poses.  It is amazing what you can learn from others, or god forbid, crack the manual.

As far as the fitting room, you are as wrong as a soup sandwich; SM has stated repeatedly that they added it for end-users to separate clothing from figures. 

See attached promo image for a pose set I converted from V4 to Dawn - tunic & pants were converted in less time than it took me to recolor the tunic and badge.  And it fits better on Dawn than the original product fits on V4. 

I am willing to pay for native content for the figures that I use.  The problem is that for the past 9 years vendors have whined repeatedly in this forum and others:

"I am a artist.  I only make what I am interested in making - which is skankwear for Victoria 3/4.  Why isn't every one buying what I am making, don't they understand that I am an artist."  They are aggressively unwilling to do market research to find out just what the marketplace is actually looking for. 

I am using characters for the following meshes in my graphic novels:

Female Characters: All SM figures (P4 - P10), Miki 1,2,3 & 4, Mariko, Dawn, The Girl, Antonia, Kez, Maya Doll, Michelle, Terai Yuki 2, the DAZ figures have a few walk-ons.  Oh, and maybe Eroko, if she isn't tied up for someone. :biggrin:

**Male Characters: ** All SM figures (P4 - P10), Adman, Apollo Maximus, Koz, Rikishi, along with with the occasional DAZ Gen 3 & 4 male figures.

Without the fitting room or a WW/Xdresser/morphing clothes combo, I couldn't do this - I would be stuck with the DAZ Gen4 figures - everyone would be the exact same height, and would all look the same - mostly caucasians with large mammalian protruberances.

Quote - Yep, Caucasion/Asian/African is definatly not enough.  would like to see american indian, mediteranian/semite etc.

So, umm, make them? Magnets and D-Form awaits you, as does Wings(free), and a whole plethora of modeling tools.

As for the subject line? Only time will tell. Me, I have way too much V4 crap and way too little in the way of time to convert stuff over - at least in any kind of bulk. Same reason I still whip out A3, Laura, and occasionally Terai Yuki.

That's just me, though... your mileage may vary. 

 

The base mesh? Chris proves that he's still a supreme badass when it comes to making and rigging a figure. I may get around to using it, I may not. I'd highly recommend it, though.

Quote - > Quote - Without the fitting room or a WW/Xdresser/morphing clothes combo, I couldn't do this - I would be stuck with the DAZ Gen4 figures - everyone would be the exact same height, and would all look the same - mostly caucasians with large mammalian protruberances.

Same height? All look the same? Ummmm...not quite. Is Freak 4 is the same height and size as Micheal 4? Do they look the same? Or V4 is the same size and appearance as Stephanie 4? Also you do know you can easily scale these characters, making them different heights?

Quote - > Quote - Without the fitting room or a WW/Xdresser/morphing clothes combo, I couldn't do this - I would be stuck with the DAZ Gen4 figures - everyone would be the exact same height, and would all look the same - mostly caucasians with large mammalian protruberances.

Same height? All look the same? Ummmm...not quite. Is Freak 4 is the same height and size as Micheal 4? Do they look the same? Or V4 is the same size and appearance as Stephanie 4? Also you do know you can easily scale these characters, making them different heights?

 And you are making some really cool things Cath! I've remade the base mesh into all manner of creatures as well as new human faces-and am having lots of fun doing so.

Quote - Well I don't care much about Dawn base as I am doing my own stuff from it anyway , some of the poeple dont understand that the base looks the way it looks as it was made for better clothing creation , don't judge the model by the base ..so far it works best for me without much fuzz , in the last 2 months I created alot , since I am back in Poser too 

 

bellow you see all DAWN  characters with own clothing sets I created .. all characters , textures .. does it looks like the base ?  nope and it is only half of what I made 

 

for me personally a new inspirations and the best thing here is that I can create each for both platforms ..

Having fun doing it is all what counts ! Eric 

for people that don't have the tools, knowledge or ability to make any changes  it is another story ,  but I hope the new morphs +++ change it a little bit plus upcoming other products and moods as the base is just as good as a blank canvas

Dawn base shape is strong and masculin that is not secret as everyone have eyes, but she can be a doll  if you want it :)

 

Quote - Having fun doing it is all what counts ! Eric 

for people that don't have the tools, knowledge or ability to make any changes  it is another story ,  but I hope the new morphs +++ change it a little bit plus upcoming other products and moods as the base is just as good as a blank canvas

Dawn base shape is strong and masculin that is not secret as everyone have eyes, but she can be a doll  if you want it :)

 

I disagree. I find the face too pre-defined as well as the body shape and is not neutral enough. You need to do some work to eliminate that Dawn look before you can start your character. A true blank canvas love it or hate it is the infamous "grey Blob". Also I do not like the topology flow of Dawn in a lot of places. It is not as flexable as the "blobs" base, therefor is more of a canvas with a few scribbles already drawn on. I tried to like the Dawn base, but honestly I just can't find a viable reason as to why I should. There is no real market for her. Definately not in Daz, and only available to those who have the latest versions of Poser, and thats no guarentee that even they will use her. Take that all into account, and that is a really small market. Sure she tries to represent some healing factor, but how does that translate to profits? That is what it is all about, because profits determine vendor support, and lately if you look at the stores, looks like V4 is still more profitable, and Dawn has fallen to the shadows like all other 3rd party characters. It's not what people want to hear, but its the truth. Just look around. Hivewire failed to capatilize on the hype, and I feel its to little and to late now to change anything really. Not to say she is going anywhere, but she wont become that forefront figure. For Poser, that figure is V4. Antonia is it, Roxie is it, Dawn is it. Heard it all before, and end of the day V4 continues to smile, knowing she is it.  Also with additional enhancements like alphaseeds WM version, adds to her lifespan.

HiveWire been part of Poser since the start ,what would he do if not Poser ?

Every one knows DAZ Rule is Absolute.

Don't matter.

Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

Quote -
Most of the end users aren't willing to move beyond Load, Conform, "Make Art".  There's a poll up on RNDA asking what they used Poser for and over 70% said they used it for making stills with 1 figure.  And there is nothing wrong with that; this is a hobbyist market after all. 

Forum users aren't an accurate representation of actual Poser users, so poll data should be taken with a grain of salt. The majority of poser users aren't active in any of the forums. They come to the MP, buy what they need and leave. 

 

Quote - However, I am moving beyond NVIATWAS and I am tired of being held back by the luddites.  The correct answer to "Can you help me with this Poser 7 problem?" is "Yes I can - get a copy of Poser 10 or 2014 and RTFM."  Lots of tools have been added to Poser to address common items like poke-thru, but the users won't use them.

 

Why are you being held back by what other people use poser for? I'm honestly confused by this statement. How is what anyone else does with Poser holding you back from what you want to do with it? If they're not willing to learn the tools that are available to them in the software they're using, then their work will suffer for it, not yours. If you mean in terms of content that's available, have you considered hiring a content artist to do custom work? There's plenty that would if you ask, for just about any figure. Granted, it is a good bit more expensive than what you'll pay in any of the MPs, but in turn you're getting exactly what you need, and since its custom, your renders won't have the same content that dozens or hundreds of others would have. PLUS, in most cases you own that custom content (depending of course on what your negotiations with the artist are), to do with as you please. Resell if that's what you choose, whatever. You bought it, you own the rights to it, it's yours.  

 

 

Quote -
How many people use the cloth room?  Not enough - once a user realizes how easy it is, they do tend to kick themselves for not going into the room sooner.

On the other hand - I didn't know I could use the walk designer to have a character walk around a set, save each of the frames as a universal pose until last month.  SHAZAM! I now have huge library of poses available for any of my characters in less time than it would take me to make more than 1 or 2 poses.  It is amazing what you can learn from others, or god forbid, crack the manual.

 

As far as the fitting room, you are as wrong as a soup sandwich; SM has stated repeatedly that they added it for end-users to separate clothing from figures. 

I understand what SM's intention with the fitting room was (I knew about it almost a year prior to its release). That doesn't mean that's what it's actually being used for by most (hobbyists), which is why I asked the question about the cloth room, as an example.

I don't think it will have that big of an impact on clothing vendors. Over time perhaps, but not until a lot more people move to PP2014 and above. It's only available in 2014, remember? P10 doesn't have it.

Poser Pro is mostly geared towards vendors and the more serious-minded / less hobbyist oriented users. Most of its features cater to content artists, whether that content is intended for resale or not. There are a lot of artists that use Poser that you never see in the galleries or at any of the major sites because they aren't active in the communities for one, and because they customize their base content so heavily that you'd never even recognize it began as poser content to begin with unless they told you. Example: I have a friend who makes tv commercials for a living. Half of what he does starts out in poser. Its not always organic figures he's using either. A good chunk of it is cars, inanimate objects, animated lettering, etc. Poser has tons of uses, and is utilized in the workflow of just about every field of visual communication out there. It just depends on the artist and/or studio and what their budgets and goals are.

Keep in mind, a large chunk of the work you see on TV and in magazines is done by freelance artists, often working alone, who don't have the resources for huge state of the art studios. They use whatever they have available to them to produce the results they need for the jobs they bid on.  

 

Quote - I am willing to pay for native content for the figures that I use.  The problem is that for the past 9 years vendors have whined repeatedly in this forum and others:

"I am a artist.  I only make what I am interested in making - which is skankwear for Victoria 3/4.  Why isn't every one buying what I am making, don't they understand that I am an artist."  They are aggressively unwilling to do market research to find out just what the marketplace is actually looking for. 

  So again, I ask have you considered hiring a content artist for custom work? If you're building a graphic novel, you would likely benefit from custom content. 

Quote -
I am using characters for the following meshes in my graphic novels:

Female Characters: All SM figures (P4 - P10), Miki 1,2,3 & 4, Mariko, Dawn, The Girl, Antonia, Kez, Maya Doll, Michelle, Terai Yuki 2, the DAZ figures have a few walk-ons.  Oh, and maybe Eroko, if she isn't tied up for someone. 

**Male Characters: ** All SM figures (P4 - P10), Adman, Apollo Maximus, Koz, Rikishi, along with with the occasional DAZ Gen 3 & 4 male figures.

Without the fitting room or a WW/Xdresser/morphing clothes combo, I couldn't do this - I would be stuck with the DAZ Gen4 figures - everyone would be the exact same height, and would all look the same - mostly caucasians with large mammalian protruberances.

Or you could hire an artist to modify or build the content you need that you can't find. If you don't have the skills or time or knowledge, a freelance artist can be your best friend.

 

When it comes to vendors and what content they're producing, the only thing I can recommend is to contact your favorite vendors and ask them to support other figures more often. Most are only a site mail away. They will likely be honest with you and tell you why they do or don't support said figure(s). Some may even be willing to do custom work for you if you're willing to pay what it's actually worth. 

Most vendors make very little profit on each sale, so they have to make items they think will sell. If the notion is that content for male figures or 3rd party figures doesn't sell, then why should a vendor spend the hours and weeks and months it takes to make content that's just going to sit there taking up server space and eventually get deleted?

On the same note, why should a vendor suffer through the added frustrations of working with poorly designed figures to begin with, especially if that figure isn't very widely used? Dealing with stray verts and parts that aren't mapped and symmetry that breaks a rig or a morph set, for the 2 or 3 bucks that a dozen sales might make after the MP takes its cut? Definitely not worth it. Most of the DAZ figures don't have those issues. Most of the SM figures do. 

I don't know if you've ever been a vendor, but items have to continuously sell in order to remain in the MP. If they go a period of time without any sales they get dumped in the clearance bin at a reduced price. From there the item has to make enough sales within a certain period of time or it gets deleted. That's not always the fault of the vendors, its the policy of the MP. Even if its a quality item, if it doesn't sell then it gets deleted.

Granted, there's a lot of vendors who don't approach the situation in the most logical manner so they wind up making more work for themselves. Tons of content from years past could be repurposed and updated to work with newer figures instead of just dropping out of sale altogether. It's usually easier and faster to rework an older piece than it is to build something new from scratch, since a good chunk of the tedious crap (UV mapping, for example) is already done. 

I'm sure some vendors do this, but it's not very apparent. 

I don't blame vendors for not publically supporting 3rd party figures that are so obscure or so old (or so poorly constructed) that no one uses them anymore, or few ever did to begin with, or their creators fell off the face of the earth 10 years ago and haven't been heard from since. That's too big of a risk for a vendor to take. As it is, poser content is priced so ridiculously, disgustingly cheap, the hours spent building the content makes sweat shop laborers look like high paid executives in comparison. The ends have to justify the means in order for it to be worth it for a vendor to make something. Which makes me wonder again, why more of them don't repurpose the stuff they built years ago that's no longer available, or designed for figures no one uses anymore. As an artist, they should be able to make it look and feel like something entirely new. 

When I first came back to poser, Apollo was one of the figures I was considering building content for, but his restrictions are too high and the risks are too great. His creator has nothing to do with Poser anymore, who knows how much longer Apollo will be available for download. There have been a few occasions where his hosting site was unavailabe for extended periods. 

The point is, if a vendor can't make enough sales on each item to at least eventually recoup the time costs that go into building that item, then it's not worth it for the vendor to make said item. Not if they're trying to make a living from it. 100 sales over the MP lifespan of an item is not making a living, not at these prices. 100 sales a week is a bit more in the line with making a living. So a vendor who has to eat and pay bills, has to support figures that the majority of their customers are using, or find another job. 

 

~Shane

"However, I am moving beyond NVIATWAS and I am tired of being held back by the luddites.  The correct answer to "Can you help me with this Poser 7 problem?" is "Yes I can - get a copy of Poser 10 or 2014 and RTFM."  Lots of tools have been added to Poser to address common items like poke-thru, but the users won't use them."

 

glad you have the money to get every release. personally I still have poser 7 / pro, since you know.. eating, rent, clothes (real), learning to drive so I keep my job,etc are kind of more important than software upgrades.

but thats just me it seems. I've actually read on Daz someone, for real, trying to decide between the MEDICATION they need over some outfit for a vicky. I hope to god they were joking...

Quote -
I disagree. I find the face too pre-defined as well as the body shape and is not neutral enough. You need to do some work to eliminate that Dawn look before you can start your character. A true blank canvas love it or hate it is the infamous "grey Blob". Also I do not like the topology flow of Dawn in a lot of places. It is not as flexable as the "blobs" base, therefor is more of a canvas with a few scribbles already drawn on. I tried to like the Dawn base, but honestly I just can't find a viable reason as to why I should. There is no real market for her. Definately not in Daz, and only available to those who have the latest versions of Poser, and thats no guarentee that even they will use her. Take that all into account, and that is a really small market. Sure she tries to represent some healing factor, but how does that translate to profits? That is what it is all about, because profits determine vendor support, and lately if you look at the stores, looks like V4 is still more profitable, and Dawn has fallen to the shadows like all other 3rd party characters. It's not what people want to hear, but its the truth. Just look around. Hivewire failed to capatilize on the hype, and I feel its to little and to late now to change anything really. Not to say she is going anywhere, but she wont become that forefront figure. For Poser, that figure is V4. Antonia is it, Roxie is it, Dawn is it. Heard it all before, and end of the day V4 continues to smile, knowing she is it.  Also with additional enhancements like alphaseeds WM version, adds to her lifespan.

 

The vendors who are supporting Dawn are the ones who know whether she's actually being used or not. 

Assuming Poser continues to be developed, there will eventually come a point where V4 is no longer useable in it and will have to be relpaced by something. That's likely not going to happen for a while, but it will happen. 

 

Apologies for the color of the previous post. I was trying to get it to look right in preview, due to the on-going reworkings of the forum design. Tried to change it but time expired.

 

~Shane

 

The vendors who are supporting Dawn are the ones who know whether she's actually being used or not. 

Assuming Poser continues to be developed, there will eventually come a point where V4 is no longer useable in it and will have to be relpaced by something. That's likely not going to happen for a while, but it will happen. 

 

~Shane

Oh that I know, And I speak to them about her performance (Yes there is actually a dark underground illuminati where vendors communicate about these things), so we know exactly where she fits in right now. And you are right. V4 will not be used forever, but for right now, she ain't moving. And with regards to your colourful post, it was pretty much spot on.

Quote - Oh that I know, And I speak to them about her performance (Yes there is actually a dark underground illuminati where vendors communicate about these things), so we know exactly where she fits in right now. And you are right. V4 will not be used forever, but for right now, she ain't moving.

 

I would think at this point, one of the major keys to any successful POSER figure or replacement of V4 will be backwards compatibility - along with an attractive feminine base and plenty of starting content. Until more people upgrade to P9/P10, any figures that can only function properly in P9+ will have a limited poser audience, regardless of how attractive they are or how much content they launch with.

I am rather curious why there isn't more content available for her than there is especially at her home site. There seems to be more content available here and at RDNA for her than there is at HW. 

 

~Shane

The reason is that they never did a monopoly on items. When HW3D first appeared with just the previews of her, they said that content could be sold at any site and they had no problems with that.

So, if a vendor already had a store such as Rendo or RDNA, then obviously that's where they would sell it.

So much better than saying that vendors could only sell things at HW3D.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - > Quote - Oh that I know, And I speak to them about her performance (Yes there is actually a dark underground illuminati where vendors communicate about these things), so we know exactly where she fits in right now. And you are right. V4 will not be used forever, but for right now, she ain't moving.

 

I would think at this point, one of the major keys to any successful POSER figure or replacement of V4 will be backwards compatibility - along with an attractive feminine base and plenty of starting content. Until more people upgrade to P9/P10, any figures that can only function properly in P9+ will have a limited poser audience, regardless of how attractive they are or how much content they launch with.

I am rather curious why there isn't more content available for her than there is especially at her home site. There seems to be more content available here and at RDNA for her than there is at HW. 

 

~Shane

Backward compatability, 100% agree. "Grey Blob" would not be what it is if it was not backward compatable with existing content. Users would still like to use their investments on a new figure and don't really want to start all over again. (and no, not everybody wants to waste time converting clothing) In terms of selling content, most vendors find it risky selling at a new site that has just started up. So they feel more comfortable selling at their existing stores where they know how its performance is gaged. This way they show support for Dawn in their comfort zone, which will also promote their back catalog. In time, IF hivewire expands, I am sure more and more will try selling there to see how much of the market is active at that store. Also all these recent site hacks are not really helping with customer assurance. And yes, the homesite is very bare, and the in-house team needs to produce more content for her. I know they are a small team, but if you want to make waves, you have to enter the market big with frequent releases.

Quote - The reason is that they never did a monopoly on items. When HW3D first appeared with just the previews of her, they said that content could be sold at any site and they had no problems with that.

So, if a vendor already had a store such as Rendo or RDNA, then obviously that's where they would sell it.

So much better than saying that vendors could only sell things at HW3D.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

This is a nice gesture from them, but it hurts them financially. They do not see profits from content sold on other sites. Want to help them grow? Sell there. So you have to decide, help Hivewire, or help yourself:) Danger is if you keep helping yourself, there might not be a Hivewire left in the long run. At the same time it's a hard decision just selling there, because they haven't really been tested in the market. So it's really a choice you have to think about.

Quote -
Backward compatability, 100% agree. "Grey Blob" would not be what it is if it was not backward compatable with existing content. Users would still like to use their investments on a new figure and don't really want to start all over again. (and no, not everybody wants to waste time converting clothing) In terms of selling content, most vendors find it risky selling at a new site that has just started up. So they feel more comfortable selling at their existing stores where they know how its performance is gaged. This way they show support for Dawn in their comfort zone, which will also promote their back catalog. In time, IF hivewire expands, I am sure more and more will try selling there to see how much of the market is active at that store. Also all these recent site hacks are not really helping with customer assurance. And yes, the homesite is very bare, and the in-house team needs to produce more content for her. I know they are a small team, but if you want to make waves, you have to enter the market big with frequent releases.

In terms of backwards compatibility, I meant with the software. It's not very possible to make a new figure backwards compatible with huge amounts of content designed for other figures. That sort of thing is what the fitting room and other similar utilities is for.

A more modern figure would have more body parts than the Gen4 figures. Those parts wouldn't be backwards compatible with content without the assistance of the fitting room, WW, etc. and we've already addressed that the majority of hobbyists at least aren't so interested in spending the time it takes to modify old clothing.  

There has to be a give and take somewhere. If users want a new figure that actually does use the latest features without forcing them to change their old habbits too quickly, then they have to be willing to update their content libraries with new add-ons as well. A customer that expects all their V4 textures to work on every major new figure without any serious work on their part, is being completely unrealistic and doesn't understand those things are controlled by copyright, licensing, etc. 

Maybe the next version of Poser will have some form of built in texture conversion, but I doubt it will be a one-click solution. 

 

~Shane

Oh the software lol. Ok I understand now. And yes something like a built in texture converter would be nice, but unless SM invests big, I doubt that feature will see the light of day. They could always snatch up 3rd party apps and intergrate it into their system or develop it themselves, but whether they have that budget remains to be seen (also copyright, licensing, etc will be a determining factor) . I think the next release of Poser will be very crucial in terms of what new features are implemented.

With out DAZ's Vicky's 1,2,3,4 would Poser and web site stores exist ?

How many companies has Poser belong too ?

DAZ buys App's ,will DAZ buy Poser one day ?

Does Poser Die with V4 ?

Quote - With out DAZ's Vicky's 1,2,3,4 would Poser and web site stores exist ?

How many companies has Poser belong too ?

DAZ buys App's ,will DAZ buy Poser one day ?

Does Poser Die with V4 ?

 

DAZ buying poser would be a waste of money. They already have d/s and should just stick to what they do best...selling content. Wasting resources to look after both d/s and poser would drive them under.

I dont think you will ever get a cross platform figure to the same scale as you had with V4. Back then the technologies were close enough to have cross platform figures. But now the technology gap is getting wider and wider so as to really make it impossible.

DAZ tried to bridge the gap somewhet with dson...but  they can only go so far, there has to be some help on the other side of the gap as well, and that has not happened.

So right now since genesis 1 and 2 sales are leaving all previous generations in the dust. I really cannot see it as a big concern for them. Right now they are doing well in pushing the content market to new levels and keep growing on what they do best.

 

Rawn

Oh please, DAZ CREATED the gap in the first place. DSON was merely an attempt to placate disgruntled Poser users who felt disenfranchised. It worked to some degree.  I see Poser developing in a different direction and what DAZ does or doesn't do won't matter much eventually to the Poserverse. As you say they'll go their way and create the DAZverse or whatever. Frankly, as long as Genesis is stuck in DS I'll never use it.

Eventually, another third party developer will come up with a figure that takes full advantage of Poser's technology, or SM will develop a figure that will. Either way, make mine Poser, baby!

 

 

P.S. Not really directed at you, I just REALLY wanted to use that emoticon!

Highly agree.  DSON also, by design, is a lead back to DS if you create content.  Its an emulation inside Poser so you'd need to original application to produce that content.

Again, I don't see why everyone can't have their own things.  Shoving everything into both is just madness.

If I don't like how an app works then I don't like how it works.  I don't care what figure or figures are in it.  I'm not going to make a decision on what plaform to use based on a figure.  If someone else wants to, by all means go for it.

It's easy for a company to work up compatibility when they hold those cards.  DAZ owns V4 and Genesis, so yeah, they can design things to work that way.  A competing figure, by the license that is written for V4, cannot.

But everyone is saying the same things they've been saying for the last 2-3 years.  Just a different day :)

 

As they say-your mileage may vary- but as a near beginner in Zbrush-I am not having trouble making the Dawn mesh not look like Dawn. I've not played with the Grey Blob in Zbrush- just V4 and M4. I've been able to make her into everything from a Gecko Alien to a cute Doll faced Elf, to a surreal Forest Demoness Guardian-a Little Green Woman Alien, etc. It may be that this would have been easier with Genesis-but I use Poser-rather than Daz Studio for a host of reasons. I gave Genesis in Poser a Workout-but ultimately, the extra time and limitations have left her unused for many months. I can and have made plenty of Morphs for V4 and I use her in her Weight Mapped version. The Texture Converter (Blacksmith3D stand alone) works quite well-except for the eyes on some V4 textures.That may have been corrected or improved-but I've not updated since the initial release.

Here is a somewhat more feminine looking Dawn I made in Zbrush-using a Texture "Danger Lady" V4 from Odnajdy.

 Another- I was going for a creepy "cheerful" vamp creature. Texture is Danae's Dublin for V4

Here are a few more-neither look like the base character.

It's well known that DAZ did the DSON thing due to the fact they litterally thought they didn't need Poser users any more. They had their figure and thought they had a hold on the market.

The Poser users did what they do best, went elsewhere and took their money with them.

All of a sudden they wondered where their money had gone????

Oh, we really did need those Poser users, bring out something that will get our figure into Poser so we can get them back for their MONEY!!!!

But, the Poser users have said, nope, don't need you any more.

Plus we are not stupid enough to buy all the same morphs and content over and over again to get the DAZ figure to be made into older versions of figures they had, V4 etc.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Hi LROG

I used to spend money regularly- at Daz. More than I should on a Hobby-hundreds of dollars per year. The Genesis thing pretty much killed it for me. Although I did spend a few hundred on Genesis related things while giving DSON a workout in Poser. Ultimately, I dropped out of the Daz market-except for a few StoneMason buildings.

I've bought some Dawn Textures from Rendo as well as HW3D- and I've bought a few V4 textures and converted them to Dawn with the texture converter. The shortage of morphs for Dawn- pushed me to make my own with Zbrush-which I am getting better at. That said-if there are good "++" and expression morphs made I will buy them! I've made a few expressions for Dawn- including this one. :-)

Quote - It's well known that DAZ did the DSON thing due to the fact they litterally thought they didn't need Poser users any more. They had their figure and thought they had a hold on the market.

The Poser users did what they do best, went elsewhere and took their money with them.

All of a sudden they wondered where their money had gone????

Oh, we really did need those Poser users, bring out something that will get our figure into Poser so we can get them back for their MONEY!!!!

But, the Poser users have said, nope, don't need you any more.

Plus we are not stupid enough to buy all the same morphs and content over and over again to get the DAZ figure to be made into older versions of figures they had, V4 etc.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

All I can say about morphs is, good things come to those who wait. NDA's make things hard for people to say stuff.

Sorry folks, I didn't mean to go off in the last post, but it had to be said, that's all. I'm NOT wanting this thread to get into the usual mine is better than yours thread.

I have seen a lot of great work coming out for Dawn from Cath and Eric. I always encourage people to have a go at things, that's where the fun is!!! Lol.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Here's a morph I've been working on for Dawn!!!!!

NAH!!!!! Not really, but wouldn't it be fun!!! LOL.

Fluffy is not mine but the armour is.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Dawn is useless without the ability to morph into a cube.

:D

That's a pretty badass sculpt Pagan. Are you making it for Poser?

 

~Shane

Every one knows NotePad is the best CGI App :laugh:
User Friendly .easy to understand manual.what more could ya want...

Who would have thoght in 1998
when Max was $3000.00 and Softimage was $20,000.00 and Softimage Ruled.
That 15 years later there would be a AutoDesk Softimage all but abandoned.

microsoft bolt trueSpace and then trashed it.
and no one can argue that DAZ company don't do crazy things.
What I like best about DAZ ,there never borring.
If I was DAZ I'd want to trash Poser and most of all the Poser Characters.
annihilate the competition.

 

paganeagle2001: Cool pet ,might want to spend a bit more time with his back toes.

Fluffy is not mine, it's a tutorial piece. I just started playing with the armour.

Maybe in the near future  I will have my own Fluffy, once I have gone through the tutorial.

ZBrush is becoming a bit more easier for me to play with.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG