Often I hear people moan and complain about the figures in Poser not being ... "quality" figures. I won't debate whether they're right or wrong, but the follow up is always that SM isn't listening to it's customers. Well, here's proof that SM has decided if not to put out it's own figure, get behind one that is already out here.

They don't seem to listen if you're trying to get off of their email list. Everyday I get their email, everyday I unsubscribe, yet they keep coming.

I unsubscribed from their mailing list a while back, and  got an email from them saying that I hadn't been recieving emails from them for over a year, and would I like to get back on their mailing list?"

Strange...

I never unsubscribed form their mailing list and I still got that same email...3 times.

I believe OP is referring to the Dawn Figure Bundle.

I was indeed. I had a link included but evidently it was deleted or not included.

Quote - I was indeed. I had a link included but evidently it was deleted or not included.

Ah yes, because the rules in Renderosity forums don't allow links to external commercial webpages.

I must have been one of the first to read your post as the link was still there when I looked.  I had an email for SM earlier about the Dawn figure as well.

I think SM's justification for the Fitting Room when Poser 2014 was launched made it very clear that Poser was leaving figures mainly to others, which is as  it has always been.  Their apparent endorsement of Dawn is an interesting development though.

I honestly can not understand what is wrong with when they advertise a third party figure.

Did they need the aproovement from Poser user for every thing what they do?

Get a real live guys.

Quote - I honestly can not understand what is wrong with when they advertise a third party figure.

Did they need the aproovement from Poser user for every thing what they do?

Get a real live guys.

I was not being critial of SM, so I apologise if you understood that I was from what I had written.  I have been a strong supporter of SM and I like what they are doing with Poser which is why I have upgraded on a regular basis.  I am more than happy to use third part figures and have done so since Poser 5.

I do however find it interesting that SM are actively supporting Dawn, as I believe this is quite rare in modern times, particularly after the changes in the 3D world in the last couple of years. 

Quote - > Quote - I honestly can not understand what is wrong with when they advertise a third party figure.

Did they need the aproovement from Poser user for every thing what they do?

Get a real live guys.

 

I was not being critial of SM, so I apologise if you understood that I was from what I had written.  I have been a strong supporter of SM and I like what they are doing with Poser which is why I have upgraded on a regular basis.  I am more than happy to use third part figures and have done so since Poser 5.

I do however find it interesting that SM are actively supporting Dawn, as I believe this is quite rare in modern times, particularly after the changes in the 3D world in the last couple of years. 

I agree with you :)

SM is doing a lot for Poser since they manage it. And they listen to their customer, this I can honestly say.

I am a betatester for Poser and each time I report  some problem in Mantis I get very quick answer back, each time I point the developer to one forum where people have some strange issues with Poser, they take care of it ASAP.

What email subscrission and advertising for 3rd party character has to do with "Does SM listen to his customers"?..this I really can not understand.

I think too that this is rare today to see something like this. For me it is a real Fair play from SM.

And not verybody who use Poser know about the HireWire shop. Maybe they want to reach all , or most of the Poser user with this kind of advertising for Dawn.

I agree with you :)

SM is doing a lot for Poser since they manage it. And they listen to their customer, this I can honestly say.

I am a betatester for Poser and each time I report  some problem in Mantis I get very quick answer back, each time I point the developer to one forum where people have some strange issues with Poser, they take care of it ASAP.

What email subscrission and advertising for 3rd party character has to do with "Does SM listen to his customers"?..this I really can not understand.

I think too that this is rare today to see something like this. For me it is a real Fair play from SM.

And not verybody who use Poser know about the HireWire shop. Maybe they want to reach all , or most of the Poser user with this kind of advertising for Dawn.

I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet and, as I have said before, it is a very easy to forget that only a small proportion of Poser users use these forums, so there may be little knowledge of Dawn in the wider Poser population.  I do think is it good for SM to make users aware of new figures so once more we agree.

I would much rather they do this and give me new toys like SSS, IDL, The Fitting Room and a very useable morph brush than spend their time on content. Particularly when these features can be used on a third party figure of your choice. 

If SM decided to take Poser in a different direction I might have to review my present policy of buying every upgrade they come up with.  Up to this point though, I love what SM have done with Poser and they have my full support.  A personal view of course, and others have equally valid views which will differ but if SM keep going down the same path they will have my money.

i received the email Smith Micro misses me.

before that was an email to update my email notification check boxes.

if they're listening, i would like an update to the p4 baby. lol  :)
easier to use hair room
a nice big palette for joint/weightmap tools and parameters.
i wish the setup room didn't auto remove my groups if missed boning them.
i wish setup room could merge 2 figures.
uvs swapping
able to inject hair group for polygons so we could load hair parented to the figure's polys itself and not a prop
more hair verts for long hair or true curves.
lower upgrade price for pro editions.
would like to save a completed simulation calculation with animated pose to the library so i could reload them to my scene

i'm on pp12, so ignore if any of these are already in pp14.

cheers.

SM does listen. They might wait a bit, in order to have an income for the next years releases, but they do listen.

We said "get rid of that ridicolous childish Poser3/4/5/6/7-Interface? They did.

We demanded weight maps? We've got it.

We wanted a useful morph-brush? It's there.

We wanted to have slave channels without hacking cr2s? They gave us the dependencies editor.

And now we can copy morphs and make cloths fit to other figures.

Still a lot to do like better figures and a better hair and cloth room, but I think , that will happen, because obviously SM does listen.

Now, if they would only listen to content creators and fix common bugs that appear and disappear in mulitple versions... and add the features we would like and make our jobs easier. They DO make nice addons and changes, but focus mainly on the "END" user, and not the content creators ( which are also "END USERS" and supply their store with content to make $$).

Quote - Now, if they would only listen to content creators and fix common bugs that appear and disappear in mulitple versions... and add the features we would like and make our jobs easier. They DO make nice addons and changes, but focus mainly on the "END" user, and not the content creators ( which are also "END USERS" and supply their store with content to make $$).

Which common bugs? Can you be please more specific? In this case I can write in Mantis a report.

You already report those bugs?

As ladonna stated, only by working together, and filing objective and clearly documented problem reports can we all work together to build better Poser versions.

Have a nice day, and Happy Posering.
Tony

Quote - Which common bugs? Can you be please more specific? In this case I can write in Mantis a report.

You already report those bugs?

The bugs have all been reported at great length durring hours upon hours of detailed emails and cr2 files. To many to list here. I am always met with the same result(s) no matter the situation. It sounds like a conspiricy every time I submit a bug (or the same bug)... We've never heard of that before. The content you crete is 3rd party and we don't support it. We cannot reproduce this issue. uninstall all your drivers and your OS. we don't have any record of an aircraft in that area.

LaDonna, be assured that as a poser content creator, I would love nothing more than have the software working at 100%, or 90%; 100% of the time. Creating content is my full time job. I have exhusted myself many times over trying to help SMS with things i would think should get fixed in the software(and never do)... and other things that (due to notes in the conversations signature) I maybe am not suposed to talk about...? "This message contains information which may be confidential." Really?!?!? So I guess I can't even tell you guys everything.

Vilters, I PM'd you back. We can discuss there and, if you see fit, you can certainly post here anything you think is of interest...

The reason these issues don't get fixed is not enough people create items. If 50% of you guys made items and ran into these issues every time you made a product... the content creators would get more sleep, prodcuts would be better, and SM would make some fixes that just keep getting pushed back! But, the pool of creators is small compaired to the base of end users, so we get no love. Sure your awesome new item breaks (from version 7-10) and weight maps get scrambled for no reason, but look, you can deform a mushroom!

@ DarksealStudios : Got your PM while in bath! LOL.

OK, I wil try to digest it and come back to it.

On a side note, just yesterday I made a comment here somewhere :

"I think there are more content creators (vendors or vendor wannabees) then customers".

But most build common items like hair or clothing, or an opening door or window.

It is only when thinking outside of the box, ( a good and creative thing to do BTW), or when building specialised items that issues like these surface.

Midnight here, I"ll anwser your PM tomorrow.

Quote - The bugs have all been reported at great length durring hours upon hours of detailed emails and cr2 files. To many to list here. I am always met with the same result(s) no matter the situation.

List them somewhere so people know what you are running into.

There are more than a few people that are willing to do their best to get it resolved...

Quote - > Quote - The bugs have all been reported at great length durring hours upon hours of detailed emails and cr2 files. To many to list here. I am always met with the same result(s) no matter the situation.

List them somewhere so people know what you are running into.

There are more than a few people that are willing to do their best to get it resolved...

shvrdavid- I have listed them on this site, all over the place, in real time, when they happend. You've replied to some of them yourself. Simply search for my name and you can revisit all the old fun stuff...

Some have fixes, just not INSIDE poser. You can't fix a lot of the issues I've had inside the UI. You always need to go digging in the cr2, or delete half your stuff and redo it.

It seems to be hard to get them to pay attention, but if you can manage that, perhaps they do listen.  There is evidence to suggest that they listen much more closely and readily to the beta testing team than to anyone else.  That may be because the beta team has a back door way to communicate readily with the Poser Team.  The rest of us have to use the forums and Customer Support.  The people who matter may not pay attention to the forums, and Customer Support often seems like it's designed to keep anyone from communicating anything to those people who actually matter.  When CS does communicate your concerns, you may not receive any feedback or evidence to show that your message got through at all.  There should be a publicly accessible forum where we can post our concerns and be sure that someone from the Poser Team will actually notice.  Lacking that, the whole process is slightly broken and is oriented toward helping the inside people and not the main user base.

Still, they do seem to care, and they do seem to listen, if and when you can get past all the barriers that stand in the way of communicating with them.

@Cage

SM Team visit here the Poser Forums and over RDNA. They do comunicate with the user and not only with the betatest team.

With some stuff they need to fix or implemente it, but slowly they do.

Some stuff they can not for now, but it is on shedule I am sure, when it is possible to do.

But to be honest, most of the threads about Poser turns aout really ridiculus and far from every realism.

And not to forget that SM get blocked even from the user to go more fast forward with new technic, because backward compatibility.

Not many Software can claim this result to be compatibel from 4-2014 version...

SM does visit the forums and critical issues that surface are being taken care of.

The only difference being that beta testers go pretty-pretty deep to document the issues they find.

And any issue has to be reproducable in their office before it can be fixed.
You have to find/see the bug to smash it.

Often the objective argumentation and the documentation provided leads to reproducability, leads to a fix.

Then the team has to set its priorities.
You have only so many developpers man-hrs; What issues are critical and have to be taken care of first?

A once - in a lifetime issue will not get high on the repair list.

Quote - SM does vi sit the forums and critical issues that surface are being taken care of.

The only difference being that beta testers go pretty-pretty deep to document the issues they find.

And any issue has to be reproducable in their office before it can be fixed.
You have to find/see the bug to smash it.

Often the objective argumentation and the documentation provided leads to reproducability, leads to a fix.

Then the team has to set its priorities.
You have only so many developpers man-hrs; What issues are critical and have to be taken care of first?

A once - in a lifetime issue will not get high on the repair list.

Excact Vilters.  :thumbupboth:

Why do Smith Micro support/promote "Dawn" and not their own figures, like Roxie for example?

In my opinion Dawn is just another figure, not something to gather the poserverse around.

A statement like this from SM is really bad news....

My bugs are VERY reproducable...

here's one for example from poser 2014:

Rigging a figure and then adjusting the inner and outer weight spheres to a barely overlapping section results in random vertices at the center to become weighted TOTALLY improper. Like, 3x to 10x their normal weight, resulting in drastic movement...

Once the inner or outer sphere is moved by at least .0001, the weights change drastically but never "fix" themselves until the inner and outer sphere are moved closer together.

................................................

Heres' one from all versions of poser from 8-2014: (same thing I emailed Vilters)

When making a rig the bones created will automatically assign a XYZ bone joint order. Where the first letter (x in this case) is the twist.
When making more than 1 bone, you have child and parent.
When changing the joint order from XYZ... to say ZYX... the joint order is changed on the child (ie the current bone you are selected on) but more 90% of the time it WILL NOT change the joint order for that same child (the bone) for the PARENTS information about that bone. So while the child says it is ZYX (Z will be the new twist), the parent still believes it is XYZ.....(thinking twist is still on the X). This leads to trouble in the falloff zones and the figure breaks. We must now edit the parent actor to tell it about it's child, but there is no way to do it in the UI. Unless there is and I do not know about it! If so, let me know!

Yes, there are work arounds involving either deleting the child and parent and creating new bones, or yes, I can manually dive into the cr2 file and edit these values by hand. But, it is my thought that by changing it INSIDE the software that these changes should be made automatically.

On a side note, to FIX this AND ADD a feature..................... we should be able to edit if we want the XYZ to be JOINT or TWIST... this is the fix for the bug, AND would add a feature for those of use that would like 2 TWIST instead of 1.

Quote - Why do Smith Micro support/promote "Dawn" and not their own figures, like Roxie for example?

In my opinion Dawn is just another figure, not something to gather the poserverse around.

A statement like this from SM is really bad news....

I tend to disagree. I'm happy to see them throw in with HW3D. They need another third party vender who's dedicated to making and supporting new Poser figures. All Daz new figures, animals, toons, even some props require DSON to use in Poser. You'll not see any new clothing from them. It's not just Dawn. HW3D is making animals, toons and other new items that are usable in Poser.

I know there are other marketplaces to buy new figures elsewhere but HW3D has set up a team to market, make supporting clothing and textures, and create cross promotion opportunities such as the deal the OP mentioned.

there are SO many issues with Dawn. the textures re GREAT. other than that, she needs a lot of work (imo).

Quote - Why do Smith Micro support/promote "Dawn" and not their own figures, like Roxie for example?

My guess is because Dawn will get a lot of support from Hivewire3D, and many other vendors.

Hivewire3D is a content company, Smith Micro is a software company.

If you had you choice between a software engineer or a painter/artist to paint your house, which one would you want to do it?

Quote - My bugs are VERY reproducable...

TY, I will look into these...

while dawn items are available at conP, hivewire is not directly involved as a merchant at conP. If they were you would see their name on the list of vendors. ConP is not "supporting HW3d"... they are promoting items that are new and related to dawn made by other vendors. 

As for HW3D support for Dawn in the future... my definition for support for the figure my differ from yours. I would like to see improvments for the figure (as she has some very very basic issues that could be solved in the rigging). other peoples definition for suppport may be "items and accessories". the more items that are released for her the less likely she will get the support I think she needs.

ps: You will also note at ConP that you cannot actually get "Dawn".

A lot has already been done to Dawn. The issues with the rigging are inherent in making the character and the content work in both programs. The cr2 has had many issues corrected with the acception of rigging in the update. If there are corrections that can be done to it that will work in both programs they would be a welcome addtion to Dawn. If the corrections to it do not work in both programs, they would defeat the purpose of the character and would not be included in the base character.

Making correction morphs for Dawn is not out of the question, I made more than a few for my own personal use.

While I have no problem making correction for my own personal use, it doesn't do me any good, as my end result is to make items for characters for sale.

for example, my want was to create a gen for Dawn. Her weights and or falloffs are done not "as well as they could be" "in certain areas" IMO... this results in stretching of the current gen zone and abnormal buldging of the inner thigh and surrounding area. While I personally would not let this stop me from using the gen I have created, it does stop the ability for me to sell this item, due to the fact I know it would never pass a testing in the markets. So far, because of this, I cannot create an item that I would "stamp my name on".

realistically this fix might take me a day (or 2 if i'm picky) to remedy... but because of this issue I see no gen for her on the market (yet). I could be wrong.

Side note: There are no issues which could not be fixed in both programs. I'm not sure if I've even tried the updated figure. Maybe I will revist her.

Does SM listen to its customers?

Yes.

I filed a bug report on the issue of SSS, light emitters, and displacement maps causing artifacts in very larger renders in Poser Pro 2012.

There was considerable back and forth with a gentleman, as I explained and documented the issue in detail. I eventually sent him a copy of my PZ3. I understand that they succeeded in reproducing the problem. And in the next SR, the issue was not resolved completely but it was seriously diminished.

I certainly don't have any special contacts at SM. I'm just a customer, like most people who visit these forums.

IIRC there was, at one time, a strong call for a new male figure. We got Tyler. Was he a brand new mesh? No. But he is by light years the best Poser male to ever grace my runtimes. Nothing SM has ever created comes even close. Does he have limitations? Yes. And I regret to say that I was one of those who pointed them out when he was released. Mea culpa. Did he get support from the community? Well, a very few souls, bless them, tried very hard....

In retrospect, after taking a longish break from Poser, I am beginning to understand those who respond with dismay to criticisms (however valid they may be) of new figures. Such criticisms may not actually crush the soul of the figure's creators. But vendors have such a difficult time making money on what we think of as "guaranteed sellers." Any hint of a problem with a new figure may turn them off from supporting it....

I'm fairly sure I owe Vintorix (among others), with his unabashed enthusiasm for Dawn, an apology.

It's good to see SM getting solidly behind her. I wouldn't blame them, though, if they paid a little less attention to calls for them to create new standard-setting meshes themselves. For whatever reason, the community as a whole -- and I know I am guilty of this -- has not exactly greeted previous new arrivals with the gracious and thankful welcome they deserved.

TL;DR -- Dawn promoted by SM is good news, imo, and I'm glad to see it. Despite my initial reservations, the very fact that they did this has persuaded me to add her to my runtime family.

"If you had you choice between a software engineer or a painter/artist to paint your house, which one would you want to do it?"

That depends almost entirely on the "vision" of the individual engineers or painter/artists

Quote - "If you had you choice between a software engineer or a painter/artist to paint your house, which one would you want to do it?"

That depends almost entirely on the "vision" of the individual engineers or painter/artists

Trust me. No, it doesn't.

Quote - "

"If you had you choice between a software engineer or a painter/artist to paint your house, which one would you want to do it?"

*Depends on if the painter/artist paints my house in a way that I pay him to do, or if he paints it they way he thinks it should be.

In this case I think Smith micros artists are fully capabel of "painting my house".

Depends on if the painter/artist paints my house in a way that I pay him to do, or if he paints it they way he thinks it should be.

In this case I think Smith micros artists are fully capabel of "painting my house".

See I'd want a tradesman niether an "artist" nor Engineer for such a task

I don't want to detrail the thread nut:

an engineer might paint straight and within the lines... an artist might paint outside them.

I'm a painter/artist and I did a crap job at painting my own house. I'll hire the engineer

Quote - I don't want to detrail the thread nut:

an engineer might paint straight and within the lines... an artist might paint outside them.

 

I'm a painter/artist and I did a crap job at painting my own house. I'll hire the engineer

Well my partner is engineer and believe me, they paint more outside the line than inside. A good engineer has to be flexible.

I've painted houses (interior, not exterior, though).

The "art" is in choosing colors. The homeowner (or their interior designer) does that. The painter may have more experience in selecting the specific type and/or brand of paint.

The painter follows the directions given and uses skill and technique to do so with precision. Painting "outside the lines" just means you're sloppy or lazy and will have a lot of tedious clean up to do.

If I'm going to HIRE someone to do this work for me, I'll hire someone experienced and skilled in the actual job I want them to do.

There's no reason that someone skilled in conceptual work, where innovation and "outside the lines" thinking and experimentation are desirable, can't also be a very good craftsman. But they often aren't. Just as very good craftsmen aren't always great innovators.

I guess this is why humans worked out thousands of years ago that team efforts usually gave the best results. :D

derailed.

Quote - derailed.

Hah hah.

Well, I did post on the original topic, but apparently the forum has lost interest in it for the moment.

Thread drift, just like conversational drift, is almost inevitable without strong censorship, and many folks don't like that.

I guess it depends how seriously the OP wants an answer to the question. If he needed assistance with a software bug or had a technical question that was holding back a project, then I could certainly see being annoyed with the thread topic sailing off into the high seas before getting a useful answer. But the sorts of unspecific personal opinion topics like this thread tend to encourage that sort of drifting. Is it really a problem in this case?

Quote - Why do Smith Micro support/promote "Dawn" and not their own figures, like Roxie for example?

In my opinion Dawn is just another figure, not something to gather the poserverse around.

A statement like this from SM is really bad news....

I agree. I wish SM would put more effort into marketing their own figures. I like Alyson (esp. in her Anastasia form) and Ryan/Tyler and Miki4, but they're really a bit abandonware.
If SM had really pushed their latest pair of characters and made them seem worth having then there might have been some incentive to get the latest version of Poser, but SM seem really uninterested in their own figures. I really think it's a shame.

I agree that it would have been a better option for SM to promote their own figures instead of taking Dawn aboard.

Miki4 is a good figure.
Roxie is a good figure, she still could use some rigging finetuning, but it is a good figure.

Ach, let us all hope that the "next" generation of Poser figures comes with a ton of content to start with.

Miki4 is lovely. If she had a more European version she'd be a great alternative to A3 in my runtime. But her European morph is a bit weird.

Poser figures just lurk in the runtime and get ignored and SM seem to be happy to leave them that way. I'd always believed what I read about Alyson and Ryan being horrible figures and never even tried them (except for Blackhearted's Anastasia) and then when I actually pulled them out and started rendering them as a result of a forum thread last year, I was really impressed.

SM see it this way... the figures are there to get you up and running as far as learning how to use the program. There's no point in spending extra capital to promote a figure you get free with the program.

quote/

SM see it this way... the figures are there to get you up and running as far as learning how to use the program. There's no point in spending extra capital to promote a figure you get free with the program.

/end quote

I belived that in equipment for a figure, thats were money was to be made. You make a figure popular (giving it away free), then you start selling lots of content for it.

And whats the point in promoting a figure from another company? Are SM so desperate that they think their future is in the hands of Hivewire and their figures?

And shouldn't it be one of the selling points of the program? If the figures are designed specifically to work with the latest features of Poser then shouldn't the marketing reflect this. There was some push for Tyler and Miki4 with the launch of the new website and an update to PP2012 and then almost nothing. Shouldn't the existence of Rex and Roxie be part of the reason I should want to upgrade Poser? Instead of the new figures being an afterthought? I'm sure no one's expecting Vicky levels of support for a Poser figure, but a bit of enthusiasm from SM would be nice. Then vendors would feel encouraged to make more for the Poser figures, people would use them more, more stuff would be made. They're good figures. It's a waste to promote Hivewire stuff instead.

Looking at the original question and the recent responses tends to suggest that, if SM does not promote it's figures then it is a foregone conclusion that they do not listen.  It could be that they do listen but have decided that spending time with content is not their game plan.

There was a similar thread about two weeks ago questioning whether SM should concentrate their efforts on software features or conent and there were a number of users who felt they should conentrate on the software and not content.  That is not to say there weren't a lot of people of the opposing view but, I suspect, that while someone from SM will have read the thread, I doubt very much if either view influenced SM very much.

I do think supporting Dawn is a good idea and I do not see it makes them beholding to Hivewire any more than DAZ in the past, or Rendo and RDNA for that matter.  The fact is SM, rightly or wrongly, appear to see the software features is a higher priority and I doubt little said on this forum or any other is going to change that in a hurry.