Quote - There's nothing wrong with using the ignore button. Most times though, I just don't need it. On the other hand, some people can just work on your last nerve and that's when you'll finally pop off.

Yep - My sentiments exactly.

Posts have been deleted because of personal attacs and insultings, not because of one's opinion. So finally learn the difference.

^^^NOT 100% true.  At all.

Quote - ^^^NOT 100% true.  At all.

Agree.

Quote -^^^NOT 100% true.  At all.

Correct. Some posts get deleted because they are responses to other posts that get deleted due to personal attacks and insults, or some other violation of tos, so part of cleaning up the violation posts also requires cleaning up the rest of it.

I can't speak for any other moderator, only myself, but I don't delete posts just because they don't follow some specific way of thinking or doing things. I don't make it a habit of sensoring other people's thoughts and opinions. In fact I try hard not to do that unless those thoughts and opinions violate tos. If there are too many posts like that in one thread, then I will just delete the entire thread because I'm not going to waste my time babysitting it for people who don't know how to conduct themselves on a professional level. But I'm not going to delete a post or thread just because some people don't think that particular subject should be allowed here.

For example, I've had several complaints from members who seem to think that Genesis and DS shouldn't be allowed to be discussed here in any shape or form. That is irrational. Both Genesis and DS are part of the Poser world, regardless of whether some agree with that or not. It's just the way it is. If plug-ins and utilities didn't exist to make them Poser-compatible, then there would be less reason for those subjects to be discussed here. But those plug-ins do exist, and are the link that keeps them Poser-related.

I'm very easy to get along with 99% of the time and try to be friendly towards everyone until given a reason not to be. I'd like to make this forum a more enjoyable place for everyone. I don't want anyone to feel like they aren't able to express themselves fairly. All I require is that those expressions are kept on a mature level that do not involve insults, or belittle other users for doing something differently or using something that others deem unworthy for whatever reasons they dream up. 

If you have specific examples of a post that you think I deleted unfairly, you're more than welcome to PM me about it and I'll explain to you why it was deleted. I'm able to see every post that's ever been deleted from any thread, at any point in history, so if you know what post it is, or what thread it was in, I can refer back to it. But I can't give you a definitive answer on why, for anything that I didn't delete because I don't read minds. 

Quote -A forum that the poser forum management would do well to examine is CGSociety. Their moderators are far more restrict and delete at most one post a month or something like that. Neither do they have any problem with "spambots and trolls". IMO the current policy of this forum is wrong and to the detriment of us all.

CGSociety and Renderosity are very different forums, with very different motives, so you are going to find a different group of members between the two. The membership numbers are also very different, so that also requires a different form of moderation. This isn't my first time moderating a forum either, so I'm pretty confident that I know what I'm talking about. But if anyone is unhappy with the way things are moderated here, then you're welcome to find another forum to frequent. There's no reason for you to be here if your time spent isn't productive and enjoyable. If your only reason for being here is to stir drama, then I will take the necessary steps to remove you permenantly. 

~Shane

So, you seem to think that you have the whip hand, instead of realizing that every time you chase away a member is a failure for you. Soon you will have no one left. No one need to ban me. It is enough to know I am not an asset. So good bye I wish you good luck.

Quote - So, you seem to think that you have the whip hand, instead of realizing that every time you chase away a member is a failure for you. Soon you will have no one left. No one need to ban me. It is enough to know I am not an asset. So good bye I wish you good luck.

I didn't get that AT ALL from what he said.  This response seems a little melodramatic.  

I truly believe that they simply do not realize what is being lost.  Or realize that what is being lost is actually an asset.  (Ends justify etc.)

They are not the gestapo for crying out loud, just humans trying to do a job.  The debate here is about the best way to do that job.  Which there are many different valid opinions on.  It's not something to take personally as an end user.  

Ambient,  I stopped posting here regularly a loooooong time ago.  There was a certain cat lady that was fairly active on the forums at the time and she managed to imo manipulate the moderators pretty successfully.  During this time there were many threads that lost responses to counter her attacks, while her posts remained.  That is when I began to get a bad taste in my mouth for what was going on.  I don't think you were a moderator at the time, I don't think Basic was either.  My memory sucks.  I definitely can't remember the thread name.  

So my personal experience is not with any current moderator.  Exept in that our opinions on the methods differ greatly.  I struggle  because things are taken so darn personally on the internet and I have NO issue whatsoever on a personal level with any of the moderators.  So it's tough to say "I disagree with the way you are doing things" without it being taken as a personal affront.  

I still see what is happening when I come here to read, when even more rarely I come here to post.  I get involved in these conversations  because I have a special place in my heart for this community and I retain the hope that one day it might again be what it once was.  Unfortunately I still only see people so steadfast in insisting that their way is the only right way that it's not looking good.  (On both sides mind you).  People completely unwilling to acknowledge that it is very unlikely that they are 100% right, therefore acknowledging that some percentage of what the other side says has merit.  

It is very very clear, to less inundated eyes, that the censoring is driving the forum into the dust.  Like I said in my previous post, you still have your percentage that like what it is and want it to stay that way, they vocally support this.  The ones who don't in large part have left.  I believe that the minority have won out.  

Hard world facts are that forums are not democracies.  So que sera sera.  It does not matter one single bit what I want, what I think is best, how I think it is best achieved.  What does matter is what the site owers think, or you moderators.  I continue to hope that the conclusion will be reached at some point that activity is of high import and possibly some acknowledgment of reasons that it may have fallen off.

Quote - > Quote - So, you seem to think that you have the whip hand, instead of realizing that every time you chase away a member is a failure for you. Soon you will have no one left. No one need to ban me. It is enough to know I am not an asset. So good bye I wish you good luck.

I didn't get that AT ALL from what he said.  This response seems a little melodramatic.  

I truly believe that they simply do not realize what is being lost.  Or realize that what is being lost is actually an asset.  (Ends justify etc.)

They are not the gestapo for crying out loud, just humans trying to do a job.  The debate here is about the best way to do that job.  Which there are many different valid opinions on.  It's not something to take personally as an end user.  

Ambient,  I stopped posting here regularly a loooooong time ago.  There was a certain cat lady that was fairly active on the forums at the time and she managed to imo manipulate the moderators pretty successfully.  During this time there were many threads that lost responses to counter her attacks, while her posts remained.  That is when I began to get a bad taste in my mouth for what was going on.  I don't think you were a moderator at the time, I don't think Basic was either.  My memory sucks.  I definitely can't remember the thread name.  

So my personal experience is not with any current moderator.  Exept in that our opinions on the methods differ greatly.  I struggle  because things are taken so darn personally on the internet and I have NO issue whatsoever on a personal level with any of the moderators.  So it's tough to say "I disagree with the way you are doing things" without it being taken as a personal affront.  

I still see what is happening when I come here to read, when even more rarely I come here to post.  I get involved in these conversations  because I have a special place in my heart for this community and I retain the hope that one day it might again be what it once was.  Unfortunately I still only see people so steadfast in insisting that their way is the only right way that it's not looking good.  (On both sides mind you).  People completely unwilling to acknowledge that it is very unlikely that they are 100% right, therefore acknowledging that some percentage of what the other side says has merit.  

It is very very clear, to less inundated eyes, that the censoring is driving the forum into the dust.  Like I said in my previous post, you still have your percentage that like what it is and want it to stay that way, they vocally support this.  The ones who don't in large part have left.  I believe that the minority have won out.  

Hard world facts are that forums are not democracies.  So que sera sera.  It does not matter one single bit what I want, what I think is best, how I think it is best achieved.  What does matter is what the site owers think, or you moderators.  I continue to hope that the conclusion will be reached at some point that activity is of high import and possibly some acknowledgment of reasons that it may have fallen off.

When I first read you post on this very subject a few weeks ago (I think), I agreed, but kept it to myself. I still agree. I also left for a longish time because I got tired of participating in threads that got locked. However...

I gave it a lot of thought, while I was also participating in other forums on other topics. And I changed my mind for the most part. I'm not saying, by any means, that I'm right about everything. The only way to be right is to be open-minded enough to realize you are almost certainly wrong about many things. So I welcome input that expresses a different view.

In any case, I concluded that unless we're here 24/7, we're not aware of all the drama that goes on. We're particularly not aware of how many posts get reported, both legitimately and also  because someone has a grudge or is looking for a way to be offended.

The drama here has gotten intense at times. Two years or so of continual battling in the "apps wars". Much of what was said in thread after thread was useful and enlightening, but much of it was nothing more than flamebait followed by flamewar. 

If you're loyal to a company or set of products and you really believe in them, it seems intuitively correct that you should express that by showing your fervid disdain for the competition vocally. Just as you would as a fan of a sports team. There's a huge opportunity for bonding in an us v them situation. Something in we humans seems to enjoy that and we gravitate towards it.

As I'm sure most of us know, that's not how it works in the real business world. It's considered highly unprofessional to bash your competition publicly. Most of the forum members aren't professionals in the field of 3d -- but Renderosity is a legitimate business. And hosting a free for all flame war against the competition sullies the reputation of that business. Moreover, when you ban people from the forums (as opposed to constantly weeding out their posts and deleting), you're banning a person who may also be a customer. And that changes the nature of the relationship. So you can't just ban or suspend people without giving the matter serious thought.

Now if we were hosted on an independent server, the kind of topic restrictions we have could be eased, and anyone who caused any serious trouble could be suspended or banned at will. But we aren't. And, in my experience, most independently hosted forums tend to fall into the dust eventually anyway.

Edit: And I still agree that strong moderation does tend to put a damper on expression and drive some people away, and that this has certainly happened here. But I don't know how else the mods should behave under the circumstances because it seems to me they are doing the best anyone could.

Sorry about the "novelette". I type more than 85 wpm on screen, so I tend to get stupidly wordy. :)

Moriador, 

I won't quote because then we would eventually have a novel, lol.  As to wordiness, I am terrible with that as well.  

I can see your point there.  I've been pondering this a bit in between reading and looking for the ways in which I might be wrong in my stance.  I realized that it was a bit hypocritical of me to ask Moderators to re-evaluate their opinions without being willing to do so with mine.

Right now I am still at a point of thinking that this situations is far to the right at present, and the middle would be a much better place.  

However I am actively looking for some error in my thought process.  It's a more personally productive approach to look for some way that I can improve rather than looking for flaws with another in any regard.  So I'm fully intending on finding at least some aspect of this that I can view differently.   Hopefully those on the other side of the fence will be willing to attempt that as well.  If not, oh wells, I still get to improve.

this is easy.
if you post something ,that if another said to you ,it would piss you off ,
then don't post it.if you do post it ,then expect to be reprimanded.
easy enoght.

The RorrKonn hath spoken!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

Quote -
Right now I am still at a point of thinking that this situations is far to the right at present, and the middle would be a much better place.  

I agree completely - in principal. And mostly in practice. But I realize I'm not privy to all the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on.

Quote - However I am actively looking for some error in my thought process.  It's a more personally productive approach to look for some way that I can improve rather than looking for flaws with another in any regard.

Yes. It's taken me a long time to learn this (and it's hard to put into practice), but yes indeed. You can't change other people. But you can hope that over time you'll be able to come to a mutually acceptable arrangement. In the meantime, I guess, you've got to decide if the things you don't like about a situation are outweighed by the things you do like.

Still, we always have this desire to improve things if we see ways we think they can be improved, don't we?

I wanted to add that I think it would be great if we could have a reasoned discussion of the relative merits of using various kinds of software and content, for example. But experience tells me that we can't. Not in detail, anyway. Such a topic is destined to eventually result in flaming. A lot of us are almost like sufferers of internet forum induced post traumatic stress disorder, and have almost hair-trigger responses to anything perceived as a "threat" (or insult).

Until we can all discuss such things like mature adults with no axes to grind, I'm not sure the forum is ready for the level of openness I would like to see here. Of course, that's just my opinion. And I would LOVE to be proven wrong. :)

Keep in mind I don't make the rules here. I didn't write the ToS. My job is to make sure that everyone participating follows the ToS. 

Sometimes I have to delete posts or threads that I actually agree with, but they go against ToS so I can't just let them stay. There was one thread a week or two ago that if it were up to me I would have let it stay because it's an interesting topic to me, but I had to X it anyway because it went against ToS and had nothing to do with Poser.

It would be great if I didn't have to delete any posts or lock any threads. But if I didn't then the flame wars would burn incessantly and that would drive many more users away until the only ones left were those who enjoy creating forum battles, because everyone else is too afraid to post anything for fear of being attacked by those users. That's not a productive forum. 

One of the forums that I used to moderate was created by members who left another site for exactly those reasons. The previous site went virtually unchecked for years. It covered several topics from music to movies and books, art, religion and politics, etc. At one point it had a massive number of active users and was a great place to find like-minded people. It was loosely moderated by the site owners, but over time they started allowing anyone to say anything and viciously attack anyone who disagreed. The only things that would get deleted were comments made against the site owners themselves, usually for not moderating the site. So I watched what was once a fun place to visit break down over time and turn into a blood bath dominated by a small handful of people who thought they had the right to say whatever they pleased to anyone who dared to disagree with their way of thinking. Today that site barely has any activity, because that same handful of people continue to troll and are quick to attack anyone that comes along, new or old. The trolls have taken over and the owners clearly don't care because they still make money on their advertising, and that's all that matters to them. How they still manage to get advertisers willing to pay them is beyond me.

And that's exactly what would happen here too if nothing ever got deleted. So that's why moderators are important, especially when you have a site with as large a membership as we have here. Sometimes things will seem unfair, but I try to be as fair as possible to everybody and give everyone a chance to correct whatever they might be doing wrong. I'm not trying to be a hard-ass or make anyone feel unwelcome. Except the trolls. 

~Shane 

Wizzie, I didn't realize you were no longer a moderator.  Best wishes to you.  I agree with what you wrote.  Professionalism in CG is something that is important to advancing one's future.  Those who are interested in moving through the software skills and ability and finding employement will have to be team players. 

So for those who intend to become employed in this business, think about what your future employer job interview will be like if they have a printout of your online rants and whatnot.  It says something about how well you will, or will not, interact with the other team members.

Which is an interesting segway into the app bashing that goes on.

While I do not agree with bashing applications or companies just for fun, there are times when folks need to express themselves.  Everyone knows that the manufacturers pay attention to what folks are saying online.  Professional, accurate, or silly stupid, if someone has an issue with a program, the manufacturer might be responsive to that in the next build. 

Renderosity is the only forum of size that has no stake in the manufacturer game.  Try being critical of DAZ on the DAZ forum, or critical of Autodesk at AREA.  I think when it comes time to blow off steam, this is about the only place where it is not only possible to do so, but beneficial to the manufacturers who read it and grapple with how to make their product better.

I'm not saying we should come in here and trash an application.  There can be a professional way to say that the workflow is diffiucult because of XYZ.  Or positive feedback that the workflow is wonderful because of ABC. 

As for folks asking for help or bashing and saying that they need help without giving details, well, not all of that is ebil.  When was the last time someone brough a car into a shop and gave detailed descriptoin of the noises, vibrations, etc, so that the mechanic could diagnose it?

Allow me to digress....

Some years ago when I was working as a helicopter mechanic / inspector at a McDonald Douglas service center, a student pilot landed after a solo flight and thought something was wrong with the machine.  He came in, and said "It's broke, fix it."  Apparently he thought mechanics were "grease monkeys" and a throwback in evolution.  I tried to question to get a clue.  The pilot got as far as talking about vibration but couldn't tell me what body part where he felt it (which is important) or whether it was low/medium/high frequency.  He just said "It's broke, fix it."

So I took him back out to the landing pad, put him in the passenger seat, started it up and got take off clearance and made a short pattern run and landed.  Then I got out and check one thing on the tail rotor and told him I'd be glad to replace the conical bearings, that would fix the vibration.

He had no idea that a mechanic might also be a commercial pilot with test flight privileges.

I tell this story because very few can really detail what the problem is, they just know its broke and something needs fixing.  Sometimes, the person fixing has to dig a bit to be helpful.

Best wishes to you, Wizzie.

There's criticism just for the sake of being critical, and constructive criticism. Unfortunately some people on this forum and others like to pepper their criticism with profanity, which iinstantly puts many people into the crank category and no one with the ability to change anything wants to listen to them. Then when nothing changes, because those people have tuned you out, it re-enforces your original criticism that no on will listen to you.. To those people who feel that it is their god-given right to curse a blue streak, I honestly have to say would you talk to your boss or your grandmother that way, even if the criticism is justified?

In my humble opinion, a great deal of the issues come down to simple laziness.  Someone reads a post that infuriates them for whatever reason and, rather than take the time to formulate a cogent counter argument, simply shoots a dagger at the offending writer.  It's quick and feels good for a few seconds, but doesn't really add to the overall discussion.

Still fun though!

I feel bad for trolls.  They used to be real characters, hanging out under bridges and haranguing passers-by.  Now their name has morphed into a mere description of unruly, intemperate writers.  How sad ...

Quote - I feel bad for trolls.  They used to be real characters, hanging out under bridges and haranguing passers-by.  Now their name has morphed into a mere description of unruly, intemperate writers.  How sad ...

Yea, in my day Trolls were fearful but somehow impressive beasts, at least the ones I was told about were.  My have they been dumbed down.

You know, I'd really like for a moderator or someone to actually define what "app bashing" really is.

Quote - You know, I'd really like for a moderator or someone to actually define what "app bashing" really is.

Not a mod, obviously. But I believe, though I could be incorrect, that app bashing occurs when one gives a subjective negative opinion about some software or other, using language calculated to inflame, and usually with no valid reasoning to back up their assessment. For example: XYZ SUCKS!!! 

I think it also includes when someone backs up their negative assessment with false claims. Or claims their own experience as universal (it doesn't work for me, therefore it doesn't work).

What if the app does suck and everyone knows it?

:P

The only problem with "sucks" is that it doesn't really say anything at all about what you feel are the actual shortcomings.  It's just a general blurb of disapproval.  I think it's better to say something like the "lighting looks flat", "the interface design just doesn't feel intuitive, commands are scattered all over the place".  And so on.  That's far more useful and in a way is constructive.

Quote - :P

The only problem with "sucks" is that it doesn't really say anything at all about what you feel are the actual shortcomings.  It's just a general blurb of disapproval.  I think it's better to say something like the "lighting looks flat", "the interface design just doesn't feel intuitive, commands are scattered all over the place".  And so on.  That's far more useful and in a way is constructive.

Ah, you need specifics.

Quote - :P

The only problem with "sucks" is that it doesn't really say anything at all about what you feel are the actual shortcomings.  It's just a general blurb of disapproval.  I think it's better to say something like the "lighting looks flat", "the interface design just doesn't feel intuitive, commands are scattered all over the place".  And so on.  That's far more useful and in a way is constructive.

Exactly. Because what is a deal breaker for one person, may not be for another. 

The best advice I have ever seen on how to criticize or disagree politely and effectively is here (too bad I haven't learned to follow it yet):

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2014/03/28/daniel-dennett-rapoport-rules-criticism/

"How to compose a successful critical commentary:

1. You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.
2. You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism."

Quote - You know, I'd really like for a moderator or someone to actually define what "app bashing" really is.

If they say something about there app that makes them run n get there blanket and cry to there mommy. 

why r u wasting time on this u have dance n archer outfits waiting on u.

Quote - why r u wasting time on this u have dance n archer outfits waiting on u.

Exactly the same thought had occurred to me. 

Wow, 9 whole days and I havent' had to delete anybody's posts from any threads, that I can recall. 

I think this is a record. lol.

I'd hand out cookies but I don't have any.

~Shane

Listen dude, I could always stop it from being ten, just say the word!!!***

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

Quote - ***
Listen dude, I could always stop it from being ten, just say the word!!!***

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

Need I remind the group the Shade now is the proud owner of my polo mallet?

Quote - Wow, 9 whole days and I havent' had to delete anybody's posts from any threads, that I can recall. 

I think this is a record. lol.

I'd hand out cookies but I don't have any.

~Shane

The Guess Who - Share the Land

BasicWiz, you've made some good points, not sure if I agre with all of it, but the point was made well :) The only thing I don't like is the whole big dog thingy, especially knowing that some on your list have misbehaved quite badly.

Rendo has a few huge problems.... one of them is the way to heavy censorship and being very inconsistant in using it. Secondly it's having favourites.... favourite vendors, favourites in forums, favourites in the galleries. Favourite vendors get away with breaking vendor rules while the other vendors are reprimanded if they do so. Favourites in the galleries can show and say stuff thagt others can't. Same goes for the forums, favourites or big dogs as you call them, get away with saying and doing things that others can't do. This makes Rendo a very unpleasant place..... unneeded moderation and favouring some over others. I've been here a long time and remember everyone being more equal, but that slowly changed when Rendo got bigger and changed staff.

The whole partiallity made me decide to slowly pull of my items from the store here and find another place that is fair to everyone. It also made me post a less then I used to do..... my eyes are now towards new places, but Rendo has been my home for a long time, but I don't see things changing here for the better in these areas.

Good rules to use are those that editors tend to use.

1. (fill in the blank) SUX! is not a critique, it is an opinion. And opinions are like assholes; everyone has one, and both produce noxious odors and unpalateable solids.

1a) No amount of whipped cream with sprinkles or cherries on top will turn the aforementioned bowl of shit into caramel custard.

1. Do not begin a serious critique unless asked, or unless you are being paid to do so.

2. Be specific: provide references in standardly available locations so the author can see for themselves if interested, and you are standing on industry accepted practice if they come back with 'but so and so said it was this way!'

3. Know when to quit pissing in the wind. Beyond a certain percentage point, you are not critiqueing; you are writing the damned thing for the lazy slob. If you hit that point, place the text in the return envelope and send it back with a minimal rejection boilerplate. If no return envelope was sent, round file immediately (which should have happened immediately upon opening, but sometimes things slip through).

4. Be professional at all times. NO cutesy anecdotes, no comparisons good or bad, and no assumptions about what a writer is like based on their prose. Until you meet them physically, you do not know them in any way, shape, or form.

5. If at all possible, take a break and re-read your critique before sending it back, just to make sure that your text says what you intended it to say. There are enough distractions in the course of the day for slip ups to occur; double checking can save you grief.

6. If you get someone who wants a critique, and it becomes evident that what they really want is an ego-stroke, cease immediately. Those who want a stroke almost universally can not handle an honest evaluation of their skills.

7. Always remember that text has no emotional context. You can call you best friend 'you bastard' and not get punched because of the inflection in your voice. The word on page or screen lacks all of those social modifiers; the interpretation is open, and you have no control over how it will be interpreted on the other end. All you can do is be a precise as possible and as uninflamatory as possible.

8. It is a sad truth that there is a percentage of the populace who frankly have no business being anywhere near a keyboard. If you should encounter one, don't waste your time trying to educate them.   

I do think the moderators have a very hard job and with so many different forums it must also be difficult to keep a 'Rendo' wide consistancy although i accept that should be the aim.

What I do know is that the a lot of the people who used to post here that I have not seen for a while.  Not the trolls, I forget them very quickly but people who used to be helpful and informative.  I suspect some are either ill or having money problems which, unfortunatley, is a fact of life.  This cannot explain so many missing people though and the forum is all the worse for it.

Happily, many helpful people still remain here and I still like the forum I just wish we could get on better, afterall the one thing we have in common is 3D art, or whatever you want to call it.

I thank you for your moderation efforts Sir Wiz! Goodluck to the current folks. And an IGNORE button? Great idea. I was always live and let live. I did respond to Dawn bashing-with render examples. I got quite into reshaping Dawn with Zbrush-just to show that the limits that were complained about-were not really limits. Oh well!

Not much has changed since I joined the PoserForum Online in 98. I do expect Ill use the Ignore button though! And I agree with the below list!

" The "Big Dogs" that I respect... (including but not limited to) The Bagginsbill's... the SnarleyGribley's... the Hborre's... the Geep's.... the Ockham's... these people EARN the respect they have, not by posting "here's how smart I am," but by posting "try this... this may be the answer to your question." If you really want respect, try helping people... not feathering your own nest or posting just to boost your ego.

Quote - > Quote - ***

Listen dude, I could always stop it from being ten, just say the word!!!***

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

Need I remind the group the Shade now is the proud owner of my polo mallet?

I always told you a board with nails was the way to go.

giggle

Laurie

Honestly I think this thread has run its course, so will be locking it now. 

~Shane