**
@Clarkie**
I like the whole "alone on an island with a woman" part but you can keep the other bit!

@Shane
I wasn't trolling!

And anyway, while I suppose there is truth in that pheromone stuff, I think it must have a lot less impact than they think it does (on humans anyway).  We don't need to be near a woman to be excited by one, so the pheromone thing wouldn't count there.  But what I meant was I was curious why certain species are attracted to certain things.

An easier way to put it might be this:

Why are we, as humans, attracted to breasts but not fingers?
Why legs but not ears?

And that's what I mean; on another species it's even more weird because in some cases they all look the same, but I suppose then, like you said, that pheromone thing must have something to do with it.  It's actually a very interesting question because anyone who could nail what it is that lies at the heart of what we find attractive about women, would be able to create the most incredible figures.

@Moriador
Obviously I would like one kitchen cabinet over another but that would be due to design, colour, finish etc.  I would never get turned on by a kitchen cabinet unless it has a nice photo pinned to it!

Quote -
And anyway, while I suppose there is truth in that pheromone stuff, I think it must have a lot less impact than they think it does (on humans anyway).  We don't need to be near a woman to be excited by one, so the pheromone thing wouldn't count there.  But what I meant was I was curious why certain species are attracted to certain things.

An easier way to put it might be this:

Why are we, as humans, attracted to breasts but not fingers?
Why legs but not ears?

And that's what I mean; on another species it's even more weird because in some cases they all look the same, but I suppose then, like you said, that pheromone thing must have something to do with it.  It's actually a very interesting question because anyone who could nail what it is that lies at the heart of what we find attractive about women, would be able to create the most incredible figures.

Pumeco, You're limiting yourself and others to just one thing... visual cues. We have other senses you know, just as animals do. While they may all look alike to you, you can bet those other species notice things you don't. As an example, remember that thread we had about morphing Roxie, and you were insistent on her having thigh gap?  I remember an episode of the american sitcom, Seinfeld, where Jerry was turned on by this woman until he noticed that she had "man hands", and that turned him off. In some cultures, women use perfumes and colonges because their men like it. It some other cultures men prefer their women "au natural" in the smell department. Go figure. i don't personally like women with big feet or huge muscles. Everybody agrees that Wonder Woman is beautiful. The fighting begins when you try and define  what that beauty is.

In that regard, animals aren't much different. Look at birds. The brightly plummage birds are usually male. In humans, it's the females.

Quote - @Shane
I wasn't trolling!

  Ok, fair enough. Sometimes it's difficult to tell with you. 

Quote -  And anyway, while I suppose there is truth in that pheromone stuff, I think it must have a lot less impact than they think it does (on humans anyway).  We don't need to be near a woman to be excited by one, so the pheromone thing wouldn't count there.  But what I meant was I was curious why certain species are attracted tocertain things.

An easier way to put it might be this: Why are we, as humans, attracted to breasts but not fingers?
Why legs but not ears?

And that's what I mean; on another species it's even more weird because in some cases they all look the same, but I suppose then, like you said, that pheromone thing must have something to do with it.  It's actually a very interesting question because anyone who could nail what it is that lies at the heart of what we find attractive about women, would be able to create the most incredible figures.

They all look the same to you because you're human. But within that particular species, the differences are abundantly clear. I doubt a dog, or a horse, or most any other animal, really sees much difference between us humans. To them we all pretty much look the same too and they rely more on scent to distinguish us from each other. But since I've never had an actual conversation with my dog I can't say for sure. If she ever decides to answer my question then I will update this.

Many animal species also have specific physical characteristics they use to attract a mate. A common example of this would be a peacock's plume. To a human it just looks like a bunch of exotically colored feathers and you probably won't notice a difference between 10 of them if you looked, but to a female peacock it's a huge turn-on and she can see the differences. It's also a dominance trait. Male peacocks strut their tails to show that they're the alpha male, the best one that female could choose to mate with (at least in his mind), to attract a female mate.

At least this is the theory. Some people debate it, but similar behaviors can be observed in many other species, including primates. 

What is interesting, to me anyway, is that it's often the male (of any species, not just peacocks) that is brightly colored or displays some exagerated feature, while the female is rather bland and indistinguishable from each other. But males have to compete for mating, while females can choose, so the female really doesn't need to look her best. 

Keep in mind I'm not a scientist, and all of this is just based on information I've gleaned over the years from watching animal planet and discovery, nato geo, reading, etc. 

Some humans actually are attracted to fingers, and ears, and every other part of the body that you might not give a second thought to. (For me personally, I like hands). These are learned behaviors, so they are different for everyone. I'm sure you've heard of foot fetishes, etc. So someone who is attracted to feet may not give 2 s**ts about the size of breasts, or if they're even there to begin with. It's much more complicated in humans because our brains are much more complicated and no two people respond exactly the same way to the same stimuli. I do know pheromones play an important role in it, science can prove that. Brain responses to these pheromones can be monitored and recorded. 

*ETA: Cross-posted with Clark. But I also wanted to add: I used to raise sugar gliders (google it if you don't know what it is). They're extremely scent-oriented little creatures, and in order for you to bond with one, it's essential that you have to place a piece of clothing with your scent on it in their sleeping pouch in order for them to get used to you and feel comfortable in your presence. If it's young enough, you can keep it in your pocket while it sleeps and it will associate you with it's mother (regardless of what gender you are because to a sugar glider it doesn't matter). Without that scent bonding, which can take a while, you'll never befriend a glider. 

Anyway, I had a new female once that I was trying to socialize with another colony and she would have nothing to do with any of them even when they were all friendly towards her. I couldn't figure it out so I had to keep her separate (which is very detrimental to a glider). Then I got a male that was colored very similar to her, and she took to him right away. All the others were standard gray and black, while she (and her later mate) was much lighter gray with a bright white face. She recognized him as being like her, while she didn't recognize the others as being like her, even tho they're the same species. 

~Shane

Agree with explanations above.

Behavioral science generally suggests that the things people and animals find attractive about the mates they choose will generally be those things which directly relate to their ability to procreate and care for offspring (or the offspring of their families), or to things which are correlated with those abilities.

So, in some instances, bright feathers are not themselves helpful to survival, but other genes which are located closely enough on a chromosome that do help survival may tend to appear along with the bright colors. In that way, the bright colors become a sort of proxy for the actual survival trait, which could be a stronger immune system, for example.

Blue eyes don't have much survival value, but are strongly correlated with pale skin, which has a survival advantage in the extreme north where lower levels of sunshine can result in vitamin D deficiencies in people with darker skin.

There's also the imprinting effect, most famously recognized in baby ducks. Numerous cases of orphaned ducks raised by a different species show the sad result of an adult duck imprinted with the visual appearance of the wrong species, forever chasing females that will never mate with him.

Individual human behavior is extremely complicated and difficult to predict (though it's easier to predict the behavior of crowds or even entire populations). But there evidence of a multitude of stimuli affecting mate choice among humans.

One recent study of the reaction of both sexes to male facial hair found that, when bearded man is among a group of unbearded men, he will tend to be rated as more attractive by both men and women. On the other hand, in a group of bearded men, the clean shaven one will win out. So, in humans at least, there appears to be some value to being the trendsetter, rather than the trend follower.

As for bright colors and sex preferences, men were virtual peacocks in centuries past, favoring some of the most absurdly gawdy fashions, while the women were considerably more muted.

Today, we have so many proxies for appearance, however, that a man's wardrobe might not tell the whole story. He may wear black and navy suits, but drive a very colorful and expensive sports car, just as an example.

Moreover, not all traits are meant to signal attractiveness to the desired mate, but to competitors for that mate. Big antlers don't have to be attractive to female deer. If they effectively signal "keep away" to other, lesser endowed bucks, it still confers an advantage. And we know that a lot of human behavior is mean to send signals to our potential rivals. The old adage that "women dress for other women" (and probably the same for men) may well be true.

But I still don't understand what this is supposed to have to do with the prevalence of one gender over another in Poser content, unless we're saying that most buyers of content (including a large number of straight women) are choosing it specifically for prurient reasons only. Perhaps that's the case...

But if so, why? This clearly isn't the case in the other visual arts, or even in other CGI venues.  So what is it about Poser (and Daz Studio), then, that makes it different?

Since none of us chooses a mate in a complete social vacuum, once you start adding games theory, mating choices can get really complicated. 

John Nash and No One Go for the Blonde (from "A Beautiful Mind"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CemLiSI5ox8

A response to Nash's theory:

http://plus.maths.org/content/if-we-all-go-blonde

One thing I do know is that math geniuses who look like Russel Crowe are sexy.

Thanks all, although to be honest I already knew that stuff apart from the Sugar-Glider which I've never seen even though I watch plenty of wildlife documentaries.  I will look it up.  It's not easy to explain what I'm getting at because there's so much assumption we give when we hear a question, and the problem with my question is it's one where it's easy to misunderstand what I'm getting at (you all have).

Ok, so let's take what Shane said as an example.  I pointed out earlier that we're attracted to things like breasts and legs but not hands and ears.  Shane says he's attracted to hands, which is fine, but it's not a general thing.

If you look at the sort of competitions that exist between women for the entertainment of men, we have things like "ass" competitions, leg competitions, breast competitions.  In other words there's a pretty much universal thing going on there.

But why those things?

Of course I'm attracted to these things for the same reason any other male would be, but that brings us to what Moriador said, about being attracted to things that may be beneficial in the course of reproduction.  It makes sense, I suppose, but it still doesn't explain why (and that's the bit I'm getting at).

Lets be honest, we don't look at breasts and think to ourselves, hmmm, those would be ideal for feeding my future newborn.  We don't drool over a thigh-gap and think to ourselves, hmmm, those hips have ideal birth-giving properties.

Some scientists might say we think like that, but I can assure you, I absolutely do not.  A whole different set of thoughts enter my mind when I see these things, and I can assure you that child-bearing properties isn't one of them!

You might think this is a strange question but I can prove it's not, quite easily.  If you were to advertise a female Poser figure that was humanoid but had no characteristics of a female, it wouldn't sell.  To understand this, means there must also be something to be had by understanding why we like what we like.

If we knew why we like certain charactaristics of the female form, we would have the power to do better, and we would know why male figures aren't as popular as female figures.  People who are drawn to nice legs, for example, all have one thing in common; they all like legs!  They all like different legs, but, they all like legs.  But if we understood why, we would be able to give our Poser figures the perfect leg, or rather, the kind of leg that would be attractive to the most men.

That's what it's all about at the end of the day: getting the figure optimised in a visual sense, and the only way we're ever going to do that is if we understood what I'm getting at here.  Male Poser figures aren't popular, but to me the reason is obvious; it's because we don't know enough to make male figures as popular with women, as we do how to make female figures popular with men.

You see?

If the vendors creating the male figures knew as much about making them attractive as those creating the female figures do, you proabably wouldn't have this problem of the male figures not being as popular.

All we know is that male figures are not as popular, and the question posed by Clarkie is why?  I think the answer can be found in understanding why, because unless you understand why men are attracted to female meshes more than women are attracted to male meshes, you're never going to understand the root of the problem.

If we had the magic formula, meaning that we knew what was lacking from the male figures, we would incorporate it and our male figures would outsell everyone elses.  Therefore, what we really need to know is why men are drawn to females figures more than females are drawn to male figures.

BlackHearted's original GND is a perfect example of this.  The figure did well because his figure had visual cues that males found more attractive than what was common on the other figures at the time.  They bought the figure because she looked good, but the important thing to rememeber is that she only looked good because he got it right.  He struck gold on getting a good balance of features to work well together.

Why can't a male figure be popular for the same reasons?

**WTF, sorry for the length of this post, in fact probably best not to reply to it, but rather mull it over. **

If we understand why we are attracted to certain things, it makes perfect sense that we would be better equipped to translate that into a figure be it male or female - shouldn't make a difference.

Just checked out Sugar-Glider, and yup, I've seen those before but didn't recognise the name!

Is it really a problem of the male figures not looking good enough though?

I mean yes, we've discussed that they're a bit lacking in some departments, but not everyone renders nudes anyway and there are lots of morphs to change the look of the figure if you don't like it. I personally can't stand the default M4, but he can be made much better with some work. I agree none of the current males are ideal and I'm always hoping for something better. But then I see a lot on the forum about how none of the female figures are ideal either and people want something better and are all over anything new that appears.

I wonder if Blackhearted had done a new version for M3/M4 it would have made the male figures more popular? Actually I think probably not. I don't think his Irina made S3 vastly popular and although Anastasia and Tyler were huge improvements on the originals you still don't see much of them. V3/V4 were hugely popular anyway, GND was just a bonus.

Maybe it's just to do with the demographic* of Poser users? Maybe the majority are people who are just less interested in or less comfortable with rendering males?

(* I think that's the word I want, I guess you get what I mean anyway!)

"Is it really a problem of the male figures not looking good enough though?"

In my opinion, yes, of course, because all you need to ask yourself is whether you would buy anything you don't like the look of.  Why would a person buy something for their own use if they don't like the look of it?

If there are two male figures competing in the marketplace for your cash, you're going to go with the one you like the look of the most.  For the most part, hetrosexual women are the key to understanding why the male figures aren't popular.  Gay and bisexual men would also be a good source of information becuase they all have one thing in common; they are all drawn to men for a reason.

What is it that draws them?

If you can capture what draws them, then you capture what is lacking in the current figures.  It's like there's no big secret what draws men to women and their beutiful "assets", but the other way around seems sort of secret in comparison.

I don't know what attracts women to men because I'm not attracted to men, but hertrosexual women, and gay or bisexual men are the ones with the key to this.  For that reason I'd be a total failure at creating a male figure for the market place.

GND is a woman created from the mind of a man (so by default it has a chance of hitting the right note with men).  If there was an equivalent of the GND for a male figure, what would it have to have so that you absolutely could not resist buying it? 

That's the sort of stuff that needs getting at and incorporating into the male meshes.  If they're not enticing enough then they're not going to be popular no matter how good they are.  You could hire the worlds most talented modeler to create a male mesh for you, but if it's lacking what all the others are obviously lacking, it will still fail.

There is an equivalent of GND for male figures - Tyler. And I already explained his problems. ;)

I render mostly males anyway. The existing male figures aren't great, but they're Ok until something better comes along. The fact that they're not perfect doesn't mean I'm not going to do the best I can with them. The female figures aren't perfect either.

I'm obviously the wrong person to try and answer the question of why male figures aren't more popular beacause they are more popular with me.

If it's down to the attractiveness of the base figure then I guess the reason there are less male renders in Poser than in other areas of art must be that people want something that looks good and new and shiny out of the box and don't want to work on it themselves to create something they like?

"There is an equivalent of GND for male figures - Tyler. And I already explained his problems. ;)"

Exactly, but Tyler was created by the same guy that created the successful GND.

GND is a women from the mind of a man, but Tyler is a man from the mind of a man.  What you need is a Tyler from the mind of a woman, and the woman needs to be skilled at doing the work, just as Blackhearted was with his GND.

Like I said, it's almost as if the ingredients for making an enticing male are top secret.

Pumeco, once again, you're really way over thinking the attraction part. Most of the things that attract us to the opposite gender is simply a matter of hard wiring  for the species. Some of it is socially encoded, and some of it is personal (i.e. your thigh gap fetish).

Quote -
"There is an equivalent of GND for male figures - Tyler. And I already explained his problems. ;)"

Exactly, but Tyler was created by the same guy that created the successful GND.

GND is a women from the mind of a man, but Tyler is a man from the mind of a man.  What you need is a Tyler from the mind of a woman, and the woman needs to be skilled at doing the work, just as Blackhearted was with his GND.

Like I said, it's almost as if the ingredients for making an enticing male are top secret.

Her input should be enough as long as she can see the end results.

Well, I still think that unless we understand why we like the things we like, there's nothing more will come of it.

The male figures have been around as long as the famale ones have but there must be a reason why the females are way more popular.  Either men are more highly sexed than women, or there's something we're simply not getting and it's not making it's way into the male figures.

One other reason could be the amount of male users in comparison to female users.

Was a survey ever carried out?
Do we have a rough percentage to go on?

Quote -
Well, I still think that unless we understand why we like the things we like, there's nothing more will come of it.

The male figures have been around as long as the famale ones have but there must be a reason why the females are way more popular.  Either men are more highly sexed than women, or there's something we're simply not getting and it's not making it's way into the male figures.

One other reason could be the amount of male users in comparison to female users.

Was a survey ever carried out?
Do we have a rough percentage to go on?

I can tell you what you're not getting. I've been giving you a woman's perspective, but you don't seem interested because you keep skirting my main point. LOL.

What do you mean, the stuff about it not all being about sexual attractiveness?

I get that, but I think we all know what the majority of users use these figures for.  Kinda like Wiz keeps pointing out when it comes to clothes; the major interest is in stutwear.  I agree, and if that's the main market, you automatically get a good idea of what matters with these figures, what people are looking for.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think it's a non-sexual thing.  I get that won't be the case for everone, but it seems obvious to me that it's the vast majority.  If the female figures didn't represent a real woman for whatever reason, I'm guessing a good 90% of the male users out there wouldn't even have DS or Poser installed.

So there is part of the answer in a nutshell:

Men know they get enjoyment out of it, and that means they know other men get enjoyment out of it.  And because they know other men get enjoyment out of it, they know money is to be made if they create a good representation of a hot female, and therefore, they make money out of it.

Question is, why isn't that the same for the male figures?

The only two reasons that come to mind is that women either aren't as highly sexed as men, or, there simply aren't as many female users as there are male users.  If it's neither of those, I think such a balance can only be reached if there is something lacking from the male figures that is in abundance on the female figures, and like I said, I think hetrosexual women are the key to discovering what it is.

You know the answer to that better than I do, I know that for a fact.
Point is, what is it?

Quote -
"There is an equivalent of GND for male figures - Tyler. And I already explained his problems. ;)"

Exactly, but Tyler was created by the same guy that created the successful GND.

GND is a women from the mind of a man, but Tyler is a man from the mind of a man.  What you need is a Tyler from the mind of a woman, and the woman needs to be skilled at doing the work, just as Blackhearted was with his GND.

Like I said, it's almost as if the ingredients for making an enticing male are top secret.

Uh. No thanks. I prefer a man created by the mind of a man.

Quote -
You know the answer to that better than I do, I know that for a fact.
Point is, what is it?

Yes, I likely do have something of a clue. It's not all about sex.

"Women" aren't a homogenous group with all the same ideas and tastes any more than "men" are. Neither are "Poser users" or "Daz users". So I can't speak to everyone. But I've made some observations. Content users seem to fall into a few broad categories:

-- Those who do pinups and erotic images and animations.

-- Those who do illustrations for comics and book covers and so on.

-- Those who are using 3D software as a tool for producing art in a more conventional sense.

-- Those who like to play with 3D software as a technical challenge.

-- Those who play with 3D software, collect content, and make renders as a sort of "social" hobby.

The first category is going to be primarily interested in the anatomical accuracy and attractiveness of their models and how well they bend. The sexual attractivess of the female models will be very important for straight men doing this kind of stuff, along with the accuracy of the genitals of both sexes. There are also plenty of women and gay men in this category, so appealing to their desires has some merit as well.

The second category is more interested in the ability to make different characters and to put them into convincing scenes. They need a lot of very varied content, from fantasy to sci fi to modern. They'd also like anatomically accurate models, but because the unclothed versions probably won't show up in their renders, it's just not as critical. They also need male content and lots of it. But appealing to their sexual desires isn't really going to get anywhere because they are either working for a client with very specific needs ("I want a picture of a WW2 draftee who lost his left leg, coming home to his horse ranch.") or they are telling a story.

The third category is very often interested in pushing the realism of the models and greatly desires anatomical accuracy, having little patiences for bad joints and bad bending. They don't need really demand attractive models because sex isn't necessarily a big part of the appeal to them. Anatomical realism is, even if photorealism isn't. Of course a large number of these folks are also very interested in toons and/or non-human figures, so there's an added dimension.

The fourth category needs something to build. It's their job (and perhaps their mission) to find the flaws in the models, in the software, and discover ways to fix them. Perfect realism combined with elegant methods of achieving it are the goals.

The fifth category is made up of people who populate the galleries and use them as a sort of social network. They show off their new purchases. They make renders that imitate popular movies or TV shows. Or they make seasonal renders as a sort of "greeting card".

I think you'll see that the first category is dominated by straight men, and the last by straight women. They make up a large, perhaps the largest, sector of the market, and you will never sell much male content to them for exactly the same reason that Ken never sold as well as Barbie.

What I am saying is that a lot of what drives content sales are the same things that drive sales in the toy aisles. Barbie dominates over everything. And V4 is Barbie.

If you want boys to play with dolls, you have to make dolls that appeal to boys. That's either going to be a hypersexualized Barbie (with proper "bits") OR an Action Man/ GI Joe type male.

If you look at CG sites other than this one, the users are mostly male, much of the stuff being produced is male oriented, and a substantial amount of that stuff is war, sci fi hero, game avatar, mecha, superhero type stuff. Exactly what you'd find in the boy aisle of the toy store.

We're all kids at heart. Except maybe Bagginsbill.

Mike 2 was probably the most popular male figure that Daz created. He wasn't a sexy model. He was much more of an Action Man. And the content for him reflected that.

It's my opinion that if you want to sell male content to straight men who are mostly, at the moment, in the first category, you need to appeal to that inner kid and provide the kinds of content, right off the bat, that that kid would want to play with. If you sexualize the male figure too much right away, it will be tainted with that connection. 

The middle categories really want more male content of all sorts. They want an ordinary looking guy (David 3) not a sex god. And lots of "ordinary" content, historical content, fantasy content, and sci-fi content. They'll take whatever you give them as long as the quality is good and the content is versatile. For these folks, you can push a figure at them all day long, but if he doesn't have the stuff they need to go with him, he will fall flat.

I think Daz had the right idea with Mike 1 and 2, but at some point, they seemed to go off into a direction that just didn't appeal to the stereotypical straight male user, or the female one, and they did it without adequately supporting folks who make up the middle categories of user.

TL;DR: It's not the figure itself or the content, but how you market it, how you present it to the customer.

Pumeco, "What do I need for a male figure" - everyone's answer will be different. 

What draws me is Are they distinctive? 

90% of the characters made aren't, imo.  They are just endless variations of the 20something pretty boys (same as female figures).  On the plus side, at least that bishōnen nonsense has finally dropped out of the marketplace.

What I need are a wide variety of ages, sizes, and ethnicities.  Which one certainly won't find here at 'rosity or most other storefronts.  This is why I don't limit myself to 1 base mesh or 1 storefront.

Let's look at what is available here at 'Rendo...

Under Male Characters: Michael (Michael 2, 3 & 4) we have 307 items...

Of those:Caucasian: 153 (50%)
Caucasian (old): 32 (10%) - Definition of old - has grey hair and/or male pattern baldness
Black: 32; (11%) (20 of these are made by just 2 vendors, Tempesda3d & Reciecup)
Black (old): (1%) folded into above - 1 character, Ol Bubba, by Tempesda3d
Asian: 13 (4%)
Non-human: 36 (11%)
Amerind:4 (1%)  (Well, not really - one of the characters that is labeled as an Amerind has the same amount of Amerind features as I do - I'll still count it here however)
Mislabeled items: 11 (4%)

Not a lot of variety here.  

Let me break down my observations a bit more.....

Go look at black figures made by Reciecup and black figures that are made by everybody else.  What jumps out at me is that the figures made by Reciecup are the only black figures that don't look like Caucasians with a black skin overlay.  Why is this?  Probably because Reciecup is a black woman.  So her vision of what constitutes an attractive black man or black woman is very different than what caucasian vendors find attractive.

I still haven't seen any South Asians for males, and I've only found 1 Indian (not Amerind) & he was from the M3 timeframe, - In spite of there being literally billions of them on the planet.

All in all, I think it boils down to what North Americans and Western Europeans think is attractive, since they are the vast majority of people making content.

It's ok though - it forces me to think outside of box, and reinforces the idea that using many different meshes from many different vendors is the way to go.

FTR, before someone jumps in mentions Genesis, I think Daz is trying to appeal to all of those categories of people, and they are doing a pretty good job of it. Unfortunately, the importation technology has not reached a level of refinement that satisfies most Poser users.

Quote - Pumeco, "What do I need for a male figure" - everyone's answer will be different. 

What draws me is Are they distinctive? 

[...]

It's ok though - it forces me to think outside of box, and reinforces the idea that using many different meshes from many different vendors is the way to go.

You fit into a couple of my middle categories. :D The underserved. And, yes, you do have to use a lot of resources to get what you want. And it's not all about sex. :)

Moriador,  Cross-post!

As a member in good standing of group 2, you nailed it.  For me anyway. 

As far as genesis, the problem isn't with the figure - it is with the vision of the vendors making content for it.  The only vendor I know of that is making full use of the genesis capabilities is Male3dia.  He has made a wide variety of ethnicities, sizes etc.  It's a shame really, I feel a lot of vendors have missed an opportunity by just continuing to make the same old stuff as opposed to pushing the tech where it could really go.

Say what you like, but Barbie and Ken never had kids, and you know why?
Because Ken came in another box!

... ah never mind :lol:

Actually, you might have nailed it on the head, you might have found the answer to Clarkie's question.  I think the most relevant thing you said among that lot was regards how men are seen like action men.

It makes sense; men like women for their beauty and assets, and lets face it, we are spoilt for choice when it comes to Poser figures that possess beauty and assets.  But what about the women, are they spoiled for choice if what they're looking for is rugged action men?

Maybe that's the key, an action man to a woman is what a women with perfect assets is to a man.  That's the sort of thing I was trying to get out of you, what it is that women want to see in a male figure.  Maybe that's it, action man!

It makes even more sense when I consider I've always thought the DAZ males inparticular look very effeminate for the most part, so maybe that's not doing any favours for them being an attraction enough for women to see them as their action man, and make a purchase.

So there you go, maybe if a woman with a talent for content creation was to create the ideal action man and market him well, you might have your male equivalent of GND.

See :woot:

**
@ssgbryan**
Sorry, crossposted

So what do you think about the action man theory, would that work for you?
Do you think there might be something in it?

Quote -
Say what you like, but Barbie and Ken never had kids, and you know why?
Because Ken came in another box!

... ah never mind :lol:

Actually, you might have nailed it on the head, you might have found the answer to Clarkie's question.  I think the most relevant thing you said among that lot was regards how men are seen like action men.

It makes sense; men like women for their beauty and assets, and lets face it, we are spoilt for choice when it comes to Poser figures that possess beauty and assets.  But what about the women, are they spoiled for choice if what they're looking for is rugged action men?

Maybe that's the key, an action man to a woman is what a women with perfect assets is to a man.  That's the sort of thing I was trying to get out of you, what it is that women want to see in a male figure.  Maybe that's it, action man!

It makes even more sense when I consider I've always thought the DAZ males inparticular look very effeminate for the most part, so maybe that's not doing any favours for them being an attraction enough for women to see them as their action man, and make a purchase.

So there you go, maybe if a woman with a talent for content creation was to create the ideal action man and market him well, you might have your male equivalent of GND.

See :woot:

You missed my whole point. LOLOLOL.

It's not WOMEN who want Action Man. He's a toy that's found in the "boy" aisle. Girls overwhelmingly play with Barbies. Some, like me, played with Action Man. But it isn't a sex thing. It's a play thing. I played with him because he had a cool Jeep that wasn't pink. Gah.

The largest sector of women using Poser and Daz content probably aren't interested in male content except as ACCESSORIES, just as Ken is an accessory for Barbie. Some of the younger ones that grew up with anime will like the Bishies that ssgbryan referred to, which is probably part of why they're popular. 

Quote - **
@ssgbryan**
Sorry, crossposted

So what do you think about the action man theory, would that work for you?
Do you think there might be something in it?

As I said, if you want to appeal to the largest sector of the heterosexual female Poser using market, you can forget appeals to sex because I just don't think it's what drives them. You'd be better off appealing to the straight men because, in actuality, I think men buy more male content than women do -- because women don't seem to be nearly as interested in rendering men.

When it comes to renders based on sexual attraction, you might say that very frequently men are rendering their ideal partners. And frequently women are rendering their ideal selves.

You ain't gonna sell a male figure to that kind of woman unless she's trans or genderfluid. I mean, she may buy it and even render it. But it won't feature in many of her renders, and she won't buy a lot of content for it.

@Pumeco:

Your theory may seem logical to an extent, based on the average assumption that these conversations tend to draw from the regular forumites here. However, I've been doing a bit of site research and the numbers don't reflect your logic. In fact, as I see it, they completely contradict it. 

Of the top 7 Poser-related marketplaces that I'm aware of, Daz and Renderosity are statistically the most visited and carry the highest estimated revenue (and thus value), by a landslide over all the other 5.

Now, one thing that must be understood here is that these values are statistical estimates and vary greatly from one stats counter to the next based on daily and monthly traffic averages and several other factors (seo, ranking, etc). However, the data given remains proportionately the same regardless of which stats counter I use. 

The 7 sites that I've researched, in order of most visited to least visited:

daz3d: Monthly unique visitors: Over 1m (does not allow adult content)

renderosity: Monthly unique visitors: Over 1m (does not allow adult content)

runtimedna: Monthly unique visitors: Approx. 500K (does not allow adult content)

contentparadise: Monthly unique visitors: Approx: 200K(does not allow adult content)

renderotica: Monthly unique visitors: less than 100K (allows most all explicit content)

maleposerotica: Monthly unique visitors: Approx. 20K (does not currently have a marketplace, but allows explicit adult content)

poseraddicts: Monthly unique visitors: less than 20K (allows explicit adult content)

I didn't include monthly revenue estimates for any of these sites, but the traffic should answer those questions for you if you're interested. I'm also not aware of all poser-related sites, and I deliberately left out any sites that distribute unlimited content for a flat monthly membership, as that would not give any indication of the type of content that is most popular, since there's no way to really guess what content is being used most from such sites. 

If you'd like to pull your own stats, just google site values indicator and you'll get dozens of links to sites that will estimate the traffic and net worth of any site you're curious about. I'm sure you will come to relatively the same stats as I have regardless of which combination of sites you use to check. 

So, if it were true that adult content dominated Poser, then the adult-oriented sites should reflect that in their statistics and be much closer to the top of the list than they currently are.

Bottom line is, if the content and the figure is built with quality, it will sell and be used. There are vendors I know of personally who only create male content (both adult and general interest), and make very nice livings doing it without ever needing to make a single piece of female clothing. 

~Shane

Quote - Moriador,  Cross-post!

As a member in good standing of group 2, you nailed it.  For me anyway. 

As far as genesis, the problem isn't with the figure - it is with the vision of the vendors making content for it.  The only vendor I know of that is making full use of the genesis capabilities is Male3dia.  He has made a wide variety of ethnicities, sizes etc.  It's a shame really, I feel a lot of vendors have missed an opportunity by just continuing to make the same old stuff as opposed to pushing the tech where it could really go.

Agree. Not all vendors are as creative or willing to take risks. Male_M3dia has been making male content for a long time. He's obviously willing to take risks. But, as he points out, taking risks with Genesis isn't quite as costly as it is with Gen 4 figures, because of the built-in versatility. I'm hoping that the creative vendors find a home that permits them to let their imaginations loose. But, given how long it takes for them to create even one quality piece, it's going to take quite some time before you see it really take off. Hopefully, by then, DSON importation will have improved (either through tech upgrades by Daz or Smith Micro).

Quote - **
@ssgbryan**
Sorry, crossposted

So what do you think about the action man theory, would that work for you?
Do you think there might be something in it?

There may be something to it - with the M4 products, watch what goes to clearance quickly and what doesn't.  There are a number of older M4 products that are still selling on a regular basis.  Something that they appear to have in common is that they don't look like they fell off a Harrliquin Romance Cover - they are "action guys" doing "buddy movie" type stuff.  It certainly was what drew me to buying the products.  I don't think a lot of guys purchase pretty boy M4s.

Needs are still the main driver for my purchases.  Right now, I am working on 2 graphic novels.  The main characters aren't 20somethings - because 20somethings aren't in command of starships, or mayors of small towns, chief of police, etc. The 20somethings are either red shirts (in the Star Trek TOS thingy I am working on) or the "Hey guys, let's spit up, we can search more territory!" kinda of characters in the horror novel.

The main characters are around my age, well actually 37 - 60, and that certainly falls under the underserved aspect of it.  I am using the SM G2 figures because they are the only ones that have older asian and black characters.  The fact that they are normal sized and normally proportioned is an added bonus.  The DAZ figures, by height, represent less than 3% of the population on Earth. And they are a pain to convert down to normal sized people.

The predominance of caucasians in Trek fan fiction could make you believe that Khan's side actually won the Eugenics wars.  That was a major driver for me - I didn't want a crew full of 6 foot Caucasians - it looks creepy.  And the answer I would get when I asked Where are the non-white folks? was But I have aliens.

Quote - .....On the plus side, at least that bishōnen nonsense has finally dropped out of the marketplace.....

What? Horror! There are not nearly enough pretty boys in the Poserverse. There's never even been a good replacement for H3!

There's not a lot of high quality photo references available for other ethnicities. The most predominantly used reference site is 3d.sk, and 90% of their references are white europeans of various ages and body shapes. Add to that, the majority of vendors are going to create what they personally find attractive, and that's usually going to be their own race. So unless a vendor is willing, and financially capable of hiring their own models to use as reference, (which would not be feasible for most), they can only use what is most easily available. Plus, at least in N America and probably Europe, most of the top-rated movies and tv shows feature white people and always have, so that's going to be reflected in the trends of other areas as well. But all the daz figures contain ethnic morphs and its not difficult to spin a few dials if a character doesn't have the features you're looking for, then use them in combination with the appropriate skin texture. The first character I made for V4 when she first came out was an African girl, so I know its possible with the morphs that are included. 

~Shane

Quote - > Quote - .....On the plus side, at least that bishōnen nonsense has finally dropped out of the marketplace.....

What? Horror! There are not nearly enough pretty boys in the Poserverse. There's never even been a good replacement for H3!

LOL. There aren't, IMO, enough boys. Full stop. I like them all, pretty or not. I wonder if the Japanese market has a wider variety of Hiro-type characters....

If Pumeco really wants to know what I (and many of my female friends, I might add) think is sexiet in a male, he won't like my answer because it's got very little to do with what the man looks like, other than that size DOES matter. We like men with big ears. (That is, men who -listen-). And the sexiest of those men makes a habit of saying the magic words: "Yes, I agree. You're right" without sounding condescending or insincere. :D

As far as I know, no one's managed to make a Poser figure that comes with its own voice files and talks to you like that without requiring you to learn how to animate. When they do, it'll sell. :) But then we'll be discussing what different sexes find most attractive in a voice. 

**
@Shane**
That was an interesting read (and thanks for posting it) but I reckon there's a few problems with looking at it like that.  For example, some things those visitor figures don't take in to consideration are:

• A figure doesn't have to be nude to sell on it's sexiness factor.
• DAZ own DS as well as the DAZ forum, so a lot of the popularity there is spoken for.
• Places like Renderotica are almost exclusively adult, they don't really attempt regular stuff.

That said, I totally agree with the need for quality in content.  Sometimes I see stuff and wonder how they expect someone to pay for it!

@Moriador
Oh, I've heard that a few times; that women like men who listen.  To be fair I try my best if I think there's any point, trouble is, they often talk about pointless stuff like TV soap operas and things like that, and I'm convinced that the media are using Soap Operas to condition women!

@ssgbryan
Thanks, and I have to say that despite Moriador's take on it I still think it has a lot to do with whether the figure is sexually attractive.  I think there is truth in that women aren't as bothered about that, but I still think a male figure that is sexually attractive to a woman will sell better to those women than one that is not.

So even if the attractiveness isn't as major for women as it is for men, I still think the ones that would do better would be the ones that are more attractive to them.

PS: Good luck with the novels!

3 day weekend coming.  Memorial Day in the states.

3 days of luving Tyler. 

i need a choicy set of hairbrush props, wood textured, to properly show my Tyler my luv. ;)

And for the record, yeah they really do exist and yeah they are for sale.

I will say this though, as an aside. Granted, their faces and bodies do make them hot, but what if, like Freddie, they were ugly and scarred? Would they still be as interesting?  I mean, let's face it, how many female versions of mummies do you see around, or female werewolves, or female centaurs or Minotaurs?

hmm.  even if it's great render quality, freddies isn't exactly pin-up guy. lol.

though, when i was in my teens, i thought Eddie from the iron maiden albums was kewl. had a poster up in my bedroom.

Well, just to confuse you even further, ugly can be attractive as well!

This car (the Devil's car), is sooooooooo ugly I think it's absolute awesomeness!  I'm being perfectly serious here, I've never seen a more brutal looking car in my entire life, and if I lived in America, you can bet yer ass I'd be driving one!

It's just disgusting how beautiful that thing looks to me!  I think the same is true with women, and I know for a fact that I have strange taste in that department as well.  Things like scars and even being scruffy just adds to the attractiveness for me!

I also tend to like women who have a natuarally sinister/sly/twisted/evil look to them, and things like scars often go hand-in-hand with that sort of thing; comes with the territory I suppose!

Quote - hmm.  even if it's great render quality, freddies isn't exactly pin-up guy. lol.

though, when i was in my teens, i thought Eddie from the iron maiden albums was kewl. had a poster up in my bedroom.

Eddie still is cool.  I thought it was interesting that Iron Maiden used Poser to create the Dance of Death album cover.

I have always wondered if the Eddie on the cover was made as a Poser figure - I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Quote - I will say this though, as an aside. Granted, their faces and bodies do make them hot, but what if, like Freddie, they were ugly and scarred? Would they still be as interesting?  I mean, let's face it, how many female versions of mummies do you see around, or female werewolves, or female centaurs or Minotaurs?

That's my point. The male version does NOT have to be hot in order to be interesting. And trying to sell more of a male figure by appealing to its sexual attractiveness is likely going to backfire, as it may sell less well to men.

Pumeco is right that the attractiveness of a model will affect sales. An ugly figure probably won't sell well to anyone. But if it's male, specifically appealing to that figure's sex appeal prolly ain't the way to sell more copies.

I also expect Shane is quite right when he says if the content is well made, it will sell.

Quote - I also expect Shane is quite right when he says if the content is well made, it will sell.

Or if Renapd makes a texture set for it......

(That has been my experience - I've bought a lot of stuff just because they made a texture set for an outfit.)

  the power of brand loyalty. :)

here lies Ed  

Quote - LOL. There aren't, IMO, enough boys. Full stop. I like them all, pretty or not. I wonder if the Japanese market has a wider variety of Hiro-type characters....

Maybe.... I really miss good replacements for A3 and H3. They're still good and I still render them a lot, but they could use a bit of an update by now. M3 and H3 are still my favourite male figures. My main stumbling block now with H3 is a lack of interesting high res textures.

Maybe I should just move to Mangastudio instead? :biggrin:

Quote - 3 day weekend coming.  Memorial Day in the states.

3 days of luving Tyler. 

i need a choicy set of hairbrush props, wood textured, to properly show my Tyler my luv. ;)

Great idea! I was just thinking what to render. It's Tyler Time! :biggrin:

quote/

I have always wondered if the Eddie on the cover was made as a Poser figure - I'd buy it in a heartbeat

end quote

Poser-ism used to have an addon to his exellent figure "Kongu", he gave it away for free to his customers.

Quote - > Quote - LOL. There aren't, IMO, enough boys. Full stop. I like them all, pretty or not. I wonder if the Japanese market has a wider variety of Hiro-type characters....

Maybe.... I really miss good replacements for A3 and H3. They're still good and I still render them a lot, but they could use a bit of an update by now. M3 and H3 are still my favourite male figures. My main stumbling block now with H3 is a lack of interesting high res textures.

Maybe I should just move to Mangastudio instead? :biggrin:

Texture Converter 2 over at DAZ - the A3 plugin should work with H3.  Put your M4 textures to work.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - LOL. There aren't, IMO, enough boys. Full stop. I like them all, pretty or not. I wonder if the Japanese market has a wider variety of Hiro-type characters....

Maybe.... I really miss good replacements for A3 and H3. They're still good and I still render them a lot, but they could use a bit of an update by now. M3 and H3 are still my favourite male figures. My main stumbling block now with H3 is a lack of interesting high res textures.

Maybe I should just move to Mangastudio instead? :biggrin:

Texture Converter 2 over at DAZ - the A3 plugin should work with H3.  Put your M4 textures to work.

I did think about that actually when they had that last sale, even put them in the cart, but decided not to as the textures I have for M4 aren't what I'd be using for H3.

And I know I could paint my own textures, but realistically that's not going to happen. Way back in the queue behind lots of other projects that might get to eventually.