I don't get it, either. They were concerned regarding multiple versions of Dawn, and only that a small distro could be handed out for collaboration purposes. AFAIK Danielle was a complete rework- morph, joints, weights, etc. The whole shebang, and he just couldn't find anyone willing to do the work to turn the CR2 into something that would inject into the actual Dawn figure.

Here's the original thread JP posted about his reworking: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2871446

And the thread at HW3D: http://hivewire3d.com/forum/showthread.php?541-Distribution-of-RTEncoded-Dawn-cr2

I'm making Poser 10 & Poser Pro 14 content.
have no interest in making content for any earlier versions of Poser
Will the stores still sell it ?

Poser 10 & Poser Pro 14.
those names drive me crazy.
alt to be Poser 14 & Poser Pro 14.
So poser 11 alt to be Poser 16.

Quote - Any time you put the burden on vendors to do more for the same profit, the less those vendors are willing to do it.

I can't speak to what Hivewire is doing, since I don't know, and this isn't really the place to discuss it.

But speaking of hypothetical business practices, indeed, people seem to keep forgetting that vendors are, for the most part, freelancers. You don't get to dictate onerous terms to freelancers unless you have such a large share of the market that they have no choice but to work with you. Hence the kerfuffle going in book publishing.

I was about to spout off my own theories about succeeding in the 3d content market, when it occurred to me that it could so easily be a very short-lived business anyway:

It seems to me that if Amazon joined in to the 3d content market, and vendors started migrating there, it'd change the game rather significantly. 

Disturbed - Indestructible

shvrdavid :
I Sincerely agree with every thing you said.
but that's what makes it the ultimate challenge.
to win at the game that no one else can.

Quote - > Quote - Any time you put the burden on vendors to do more for the same profit, the less those vendors are willing to do it.

I can't speak to what Hivewire is doing, since I don't know, and this isn't really the place to discuss it.

But speaking of hypothetical business practices, indeed, people seem to keep forgetting that vendors are, for the most part, freelancers. You don't get to dictate onerous terms to freelancers unless you have such a large share of the market that they have no choice but to work with you. Hence the kerfuffle going in book publishing.

I was about to spout off my own theories about succeeding in the 3d content market, when it occurred to me that it could so easily be a very short-lived business anyway:

It seems to me that if Amazon joined in to the 3d content market, and vendors started migrating there, it'd change the game rather significantly. 

Yeah, I personally feel that building the same content for two different programs to be extraneous untill there are enough cross-the-lines utilties available to ease the burden.  Of course there is nothing barring someone from making Poser-only content.  It might not be well-favored across the aisles but as you said, most vendors are freelancers, so it really is a choice at the end of the day.

If Dawn 2 came out soon, I would be really upset, and I wouldn't be willing to spend money to make her usable, unless she where were great and free, out of the box, no add-ons needed - we know that is not how it will go. The first release of Dawn is only becoming usable for me now, that I have a reasonable set of morphs, including third party morphs, and a selection of textures to make her look different. I am happy to make clothes for her now.

I would be interested in a male version, but again, if the morphs were absent, expensive or limited I wouldn't buy. And I need non-caucasian textures. So, having seen how things progressed with Dawn I would probably wait before committing to the male version.

Dawn at least has a chance of surviving. With Rex and Roxie, Smith Micro made the same mistakes and worse - figures that were released with major flaws and no third party support, that didn't initially even work in the face room and had very limited other morphs to change the face, and only a caucasian texture. Would you have bought them, or even downloaded them for free if they hadn't come with the software? Rex and Roxie have been around longer than Dawn, and at this time I only have only one character set for Roxie  with a few skin tones (by Virtual_World and now on sale here), and two for Rex, both by 3Dream. The Rex textures are both caucasian, even if there are different shades. The Roxie set at least enables me to create characters that could conceivably be a different race, and I can sculpt the head morphs myself in Blender.

To make it worse, an essential update for Rex and Roxie is then released, but it makes previously created morphs incompatible. Then a major error is found in the updated Roxie and she is updated again (I am not sure whether the same thing happened with Rex). It is a comedy of errors, and this is one of the reasons why I am still interested in Dawn. I bought a character for Dawn yesterday (again by Virtual_World), so I am still engaged, prepared to buy and make stuff, when it comes to Dawn.

At some point, Daz asked the question, "What would happen if Poser were pulled from the market?" The horrifying implications -- their entire business would fall apart -- led to the development of Daz Studio. And it took years to become the software that it is today.

If you imagine the question, "What would happen if Daz decided to pull V4 from the market?"

Then Dawn is the answer for Poser users.

To be sure, many of us believe that SM should prepare for that possibility. But historically, Poser has relied on third party content creators, and Hivewire continues in that tradition.

I think most Poser users (who are dissatisfied with the Poser figures) have a vested interest in supporting what Hivewire is doing. And if not that, at least we have a vested interest in not undermining them.

I don't think that either possibility (Poser being pulled or V4 being pulled) is likely to occur. But I don't believe there's anything wrong with preparing for the possibility. And if it did happen that V4 vanished, Hivewire would be in a very good position to dominate the content market for Poser users.

Autodesk bought Maya.
When SM sells Poser ,DAZ could buy Poser.

I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon. 

Quote - Autodesk bought Maya.
When SM sells Poser ,DAZ could buy Poser.

 

Sure. As long as Poser were up for sale. (AFAIK we have no reason to believe it will be.) They could buy it and cease development. Or someone else could do the same. That seems to be a common tactic these days.

But there's speculation that encourages thinking about solutions, and then there's speculation of a sort that permits no solutions. Best to keep it real, I think. :)

Quote - I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon. 

Support might be discontinued from them as they focus on the Genesis range, but when last have they released anything for V4 or M4 in-house? They stopped a while ago to be honest. As long as vendors still make content, there is nothing to worry about. The situation won't be any different as to what it is now. Only way it changes is if vendors discontinue support.

Quote - Sure. As long as Poser were up for sale. (AFAIK we have no reason to believe it will be.) 

Well, Smith Micro is in financial dire straights. Stock is below one dollar (~78c today, that's down from a stock price of ~$16 in the beginning of 2011). This is mostly due to the poor performance of their wireless and mobility solutions section which is by far the largest part of their business (SM is not primarily a graphics company). The software section which includes all graphics software and things like StuffIt is not doing badly, but it is a small part of their business. You can find the numbers in their last financial report that sent the stock down by 50% or so in a day. What does this mean for Poser? Who knows, we will see.

TD

Quote - > Quote - I guess the guys who formed the Hivewire team weren't the ones responsible for the Daz figure launches.

Chris Creek was one of the co-founders of Zygote/Daz. Chris is one of the founders of Hivewire, along with Eric Merritt, also a co-founder of Zygote. Chris is also behind the ever popular "Dancing Baby", Dork, Posette, Victoria, and Michael.

Yes. I know.

My meaning was that the successful launch strategies for the Daz figures do not appear to have been transferred.

"Lets face it, no new character will ever take off at this point.

People complain that there are no new characters of any value, and as soon as a new one is released it is bashed to pieces before it can even take hold.

Lots of people wanted standardized versions on Antonia. How long did that last?

Then they wanted a weight mapped version of Antonia, Same deal...

People wanted a weight mapped V4, that didn't last much longer.... And there are more than a few versions now to boot.

I could go on and on, but the story is the same. The arm chair developers control what happens to a figure by what they post.

There are a lot of arm chair developers around that bash everything that appears, because it isn't "insert whatever". Some have never even downloaded it and admit that. Sort of ironic isn't it....

If anyone else thinks they can create the next big figure, best of luck.

You can give people exactly what they ask for, and they still complain about "insert whatever".

Been there, done that......... On many characters....

The only way to force a new characters reign, is to remove reverse compatability in the programs. We all know that wont happen any time soon. The arm chair developers would have a fit.... "

Well has not DAZ Done Exactly that with DS & "Genesis", after a fashion,??

DAZ IMHO Did exactly what the late Steve jobs did upon his return from exile back to apple many years ago.

He (Jobs) Killed the mac hardware clones to consolidate tight control over the perfect compatibility of Mac hardware and the Mac OS and saved the mac platform from certain oblivion.

Note how it was Apple Computer themselves who got serious and upgraded their aged OS9 ,that could not multitask or even address more than 999 megs of RAM!! , NOT some disparate dedicated, Idealistic,often fanatical third party group of mac partisans largely motivated by an Irrational hatred of Microsoft

Reading these threads I see so many people&factions placing their hopes on one
Saviour figure/Poser vender/Group Collective.. blah blah after another.while inexplicably ignoring the obvious Elephant in the room....SMITH MICRO.

Remember Steve Coopers Meandering blog post Explaining why SM will Not invest development time & Money in a figure they "Dont own"??( paraphrasing)

Well*(no offense to Blackhearted),* but how did the Ryan2Alison2 renovation playout?,
not much later we saw Cooper eat those brave words in the form of a Half hearted, shoe horned, hardware intensive, Kludge called DSON.

Until Smith Micro actually puts some serious Money & effort into some serious alternative figure tech to genesis that leverages every possible built in capability of the CURRENT VERSION of poser then all of these "Crowd sourced"figures will follow the exact same life cycle:

Prerelease Forum Hype: replete with ridiculous Forum signature banners.

Actual release: with the new figures(inevitably short lived), relevancy maintained by the near religious devotion of party disciples through forum posts& images of renders.

Frustration: as the great mass of unenlightened start the usual gripes about lack of content,morphs etc etc...this is the stage where the figure partisans "leadership" take on a more "Combative" approach to the Luddites resulting many locked threads followed by the Exodus of the leadership & "faithful" over to the enlightened safe haven of their own forums.

Resignation: Would be Conqueror of DAZ  soon fades into obscurity and join the rest in the Ashbin of poser history while SM Still charges Hundreds for the next version of Poser Pro.
 

Quote - Lets face it, no new character will ever take off at this point.

People complain that there are no new characters of any value, and as soon as a new one is released it is bashed to pieces before it can even take hold.

Lots of people wanted standardized versions on Antonia. How long did that last?

Then they wanted a weight mapped version of Antonia, Same deal...

People wanted a weight mapped V4, that didn't last much longer.... And there are more than a few versions now to boot.

I could go on and on, but the story is the same. The arm chair developers control what happens to a figure by what they post.

There are a lot of arm chair developers around that bash everything that appears, because it isn't "insert whatever". Some have never even downloaded it and admit that. Sort of ironic isn't it....

If anyone else thinks they can create the next big figure, best of luck.

You can give people exactly what they ask for, and they still complain about "insert whatever".

Been there, done that......... On many characters....

The only way to force a new characters reign, is to remove reverse compatability in the programs. We all know that wont happen any time soon. The arm chair developers would have a fit....

/Carry on......

You hit the nail on the head with this post.  I have a feeling the same group of people would bad rap the second coming of Christ....."Oh look...he's wearing sandals!"

What is meant by reverse compatabilty?  If you all don't mind me asking.

It means your car has a reverse gear :woot:
Nah, it means that something new is still compatible with the older version.

"It means your car has a reverse gear"

Excellent!  No more drivin' around in circles! 

"Nah, it means that something new is still compatible with the older version."

I see. So how far back would think a Poser Figure would need to be compatible?

Quote - "It means your car has a reverse gear"

 

Excellent!  No more drivin' around in circles! 

 

"Nah, it means that something new is still compatible with the older version."

 

I see. So how far back would think a Poser Figure would need to be compatible?

I believe a Poser figure dating back as far as Poser 1 will work in Poser 2014. On the ohter hand, that compatibility is one way.  Poser 10 figures such as Roxie or Rex will not work in Poser 8 or lower. It may work in Poser 9, but  there may also be some issues.

Reverse compatibility is forward compatibility - so new content being able to run on old versions of the software. 

So giving up reverse compatibilty would mean new content only runs on new software. 

Roxie and genesis are examples of this.

Backward compatibilty is the ability to read old content in new versions of the software (so the opposite)

wolf359, that isn't even an accurate paraphrasing of SM's reasons to not directly support 3rd Party Systems.

The relevant quote is (bold emphasis mine)

Many ideas, even some of the interesting ones, come with a consequence, and sometimes those consequences are too dear to accept. This is the case with fully adopting the new Genesis system from Daz. There are some good features in their new system, and those that make sense to us, are supported in a way that would benefit not just Daz, but the whole ecosystem of content developers. Those that do not fit within our strategy of an open system, free from dependencies on technologies that are beyond our control, aren’t in synch with our long term goals for growing Poser. Directly supporting the Genesis system does not meet those needs. However, doing our best to support the features that Genesis can provide to all Poser users is clearly beneficial.

Blog entry is here: http://blog.smithmicro.com/2011/08/11/poser-3d/support-for-3rd-party-character-systems-in-poser/

That, to me, seems to say that SM recognizes and agrees with some of the Genesis features, in those features are positive for users and content developers, but they would be more inclined to produce similar features without adopting the DSON/Genesis specifications, directly.  Neither SM's development cycle (or sales approach) is the same as DAZ' and that in itself would cause lots of problems.  DAZ can run a constant public beta version of DS indefinately and change features or specifications every other week if they wanted to.  This would cause pressure to constantly keep up with those changes.  Or if some code gets depreciated or altered in how it is used, then previous systems have to be scrapped or changed.

On the compatibility issue,  wasn't there a fix where you could open up the cr2 or pp2 and change the version number.

As for Poser figures, what would you all say the best proportions are? 

Quote - I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon. 

If I was DAZ I would want Poser really really bad.

It's a spring cleaning sale for V4 n the 4's & Genesis.
DAZ might still sell V1,V2,V3 mesh but i can't find them.
but they still sell V1,V2,V3 stuff.
ya think they make any V1 ,V2 sells ?

Poser 4, V1. at some point ya half to let the past go.

Quote - wolf359, that isn't even an accurate paraphrasing of SM's reasons to not directly support 3rd Party Systems.

The relevant quote is (bold emphasis mine)

Many ideas, even some of the interesting ones, come with a consequence, and sometimes those consequences are too dear to accept. This is the case with fully adopting the new Genesis system from Daz. There are some good features in their new system, and those that make sense to us, are supported in a way that would benefit not just Daz, but the whole ecosystem of content developers. Those that do not fit within our strategy of an open system, free from dependencies on technologies that are beyond our control, aren’t in synch with our long term goals for growing Poser. Directly supporting the Genesis system does not meet those needs. However, doing our best to support the features that Genesis can provide to all Poser users is clearly beneficial.

Blog entry is here: http://blog.smithmicro.com/2011/08/11/poser-3d/support-for-3rd-party-character-systems-in-poser/

That, to me, seems to say that SM recognizes and agrees with some of the Genesis features, in those features are positive for users and content developers, but they would be more inclined to produce similar features without adopting the DSON/Genesis specifications, directly.  Neither SM's development cycle (or sales approach) is the same as DAZ' and that in itself would cause lots of problems.  DAZ can run a constant public beta version of DS indefinately and change features or specifications every other week if they wanted to.  This would cause pressure to constantly keep up with those changes.  Or if some code gets depreciated or altered in how it is used, then previous systems have to be scrapped or changed.

I think you missed the point of the wolf's point. He's not saying "SM implement Genesis", he's saying "Why hasn't anyone taken SM to task for not supplying better figures so there's no reliance on 3rd parties?" He brings up the point of customers lining up behind 3rd party figures that ended up failing in the marketplace, but no one wants to speak of how SM should be leading the way so there aren't the endless threads of bashing and app wars. It seems no one wants to speak of that obvious point, the discussion always steers toward an outside company and away from SM leading the charge.

So..SM basically wants to keep Poser open so more people can develop figures that end up unsupported within months instead of supporting the new major platforms fully? Since they cannot provide a decent first party alternative that is sustainable, this pattern will continue? Haven't they learned by now? Now they are backing Dawn. Where? Where is the support? Just saying so and doing so are two different things. This does not sound like long term growth to me. I am just frustrated because this business plan does not work. If supporting a 3rd party figure, they need to play a more active role to ensure that it showcases Posers abilities.

With regards to DS, it is not only a constant public beta. It also has a stable release that is updated frequently. The beta is the platform to test those updates before it is integrated. Updates are expected these days, just like most apps and games I own. I don't go around calling them all beta's just because a new update is available in a month or even a week. This is common practice by todays standards with software frequently being updated to keep up with current advances.

moriador : Poser really has been bought and sold more then any other CGI Software.
and I really do wish a CGI company any of them DAZ, HiveWire3d ,MAX ,LW ,Blender ,zBrush etc etc would buy Poser.

Maevryn : Don't you know sandles are a sin ;)

patorak3d : I like V5 Super Model best.
Poser10 ,Pro 14. first version to have SubD's.
Can't tell you what you alt to do about Reverse compatibility.
but I would ask myself ,Why are they still using a old Poser.

@M3dia

I didn't say that Wolf said for SM to Implement Genesis.  I said that the original quote is not simply about SM "investing development time and money" and there's more to it than that.  There are more angles to look at concerning their reservations.

SM presented Roxie and Rex.  For reasons we can all list, they weren't adopted by the bulk of users, at least not the bulk of forum going users or those that spend money in the marketplaces that we can gauge.  There's more angles to that as well.  For all we know, they are used by businesses and schools that purchased Poser and other areas we have no knowledge of.  Also, for all we know, users have emailed SM their feelings on the figures, and they are weighing in that criticism.  Or do you mean taking them to task where it can publicly be seen by all?

DAZ has no responsibility at all to provide native working Poser figures.  They want to provide native figures for their application and offer some means to have Genesis in Poser.  DAZ has gradually moved from a Poser content developer to having their own system and figure for that system.  I don't have a single issue with that, so you're not getting any argument from me on it.

@Zev0

You can speculate whatever you'd like from the blog post.

I didn't say that DS didn't have a stable release.  Don't be so touchy.  I simply was trying to illustrate that the two companies do things differently and are not in sync with each others development cycles.  However, if some new or altered feature was prominent in a beta release or a product called for using a beta version (this has happened), then there could be pressure there if Poser natively used DS tech.

I don't know specifically what these companies are doing, their internal long-term goals and I'm not on their board of directors.  Nor is anyone else here, to the best of my knowledge.  We are all speculating and I thought generally just having a kind of "coffee chat" over why Dawn doesn't rule and so on.  Noone should get all a flutter over it.

Quote - I think the scenario of DAZ buying Poser is highly unlikely.

A few days ago DAZ ran a huge sale on V4 and M4 stuff, calling it "cleaning house" or something like that. It could have been a sales tactic, but it made me worry. The discounts were good though, but I couldn't help wondering if they were serious about the cleaning house part of it, and if it meant that support for V4 and M4 would be discontinued any time soon. 

A Daz team member assured us that the cleaning was nothing more then a sale name and not an actual removal of the items from the store.  As they still have older stuff for the previous generations for sale I do not see them getting rid of the products anytime soon.  But I did whittle down my wishlist from the store though, making progress feels great. lol

I just got Dawn's base figure recently, mainly because I am a doofus and failed to realize that Studio could run the figure even if I did not have an updated version of Poser to do so.  But she seems decent enough, and from what I am seeing there are some good products including some great freebies, being released for her and the character sets are getting better. No disrespect intended.

At the time though I have not really used her much, been buying up my gen 4 wishlist stuff, working on upgrading to Gen 2 male, and needing to upgrade my Poser so she is falling back on my priority list.

There is just too much going on now, it was a ton easier when we didn't have to scatter our resources so much.

Hopefully she gains ground and starts to make a difference in the community.

Allow this reaction.

DAZ left Poser compatibility in their own free will.

Poser (SM) released a new Poser version while the figures (Rex and Roxie) where not finished.

DAWN tried to fill the gap with a hype of being compatible with both apps.

Unfortuantely:
DAWN was not ready at her release either.
Basically being a DS figure, she has a ton of internal Poser issues left in her cr2.
And the overly STRONG texture did not help either.

Then unfortunately again, the Dawn creators failed to make her popular before they started to think in dollars leading DAWN into guaranteed failure.

So?
basically, we have SM fixing Rex and Roxie in an SR

We have DAZ Genesis that need a factory hack (DSON) to get going in Poser at 50%

And we have DAWN that drives on a completely failed release..............

And then, the most stupid mistake? The horse.

Instead of saturating the free stuff area's to try to make DAWN popular?
They release a horce. To pay for !!!!

Completely beyond human comprehention.

I have nothing against their horse, however I feel Hivewire should have focused that energy on Dawn, bringing her up to scratch and addressing key issues that would have given her some kind of push. Their focus needed to be more streamlined.

@ Zev0

Completely agree.

Quote - And we have DAWN that drives on a completely failed release..............

And then, the most stupid mistake? The horse.

Instead of saturating the free stuff area's to try to make DAWN popular?
They release a horce. To pay for !!!!

I don't think any business that wants to stay in business does so by giving out lots of freebies. Their employees need to be paid for the work. What does keep them is business is providing content people are willing to pay for. You have to get content developers on board to provide support for the figure that people will pay for. Vendors won't work for free, they have bills to pay and they are the ones that ultimately keep the figure alive in return from sales from customers. 

If a business just kept putting out freebies instead of selling items, it will quickly burn through any cash reserves and go out of business when the bills and employees can't be paid.  They have to keep business coming in to offset the cost of any freebies they give out.

Vendors will only create for your figure, if YOU make your figure popular enough.
If YOU, as the creator, fail to make YOUR figure popular?
Forget it.

If YOU fail to make YOUR figure popular?
You will not need the cash reserves at all.
YOU are dead at birth.

Sure, Hivewire could have done this or that better. It's easy for us, sitting in our living rooms, to criticize retrospectively. :D

Not having their sales information, and not knowing their business strategy, declaring Dawn a "failure" is a bit premature. Sure, you can say that the support from vendors in other MP's has pretty much vanished, but that's assuming the support was there in the first place. I don't think it was. From what I can tell, most vendor support was related directly to her release, not a commitment to continue that support.

In any case, Hivewire's main goal initially might have been simply to get enough dedicated core users that they could survive. 1000 people who spend $20 - $50 a month, every month, could be enough to keep a fledgling business going while more customers trickle in. If they succeeded in getting enough dedicated customers, then they weren't a failure and Dawn wasn't a failure. We simply don't know what their goals were, and as a result, it's unfair to judge.

They don't need everyone at the Rendo forums to be going wild over their products -- it's not like a forum post from an armchair business analyst is going to make an iota of difference to them. :D

A figure is popular by its merits. If customers and vendors see them, then it will be used and content created. I don't think you're able to see whether a figure itself is of merit by just distributing freebies.

Often, I feel a good (and tried and true) strategy is to offer the core figure for free and then do pay-for addons with a good mix of freebies in there.

This worked for V4, works for Genesis and Dawn.  It works for my little toon guys.

Roxie is, in part, a harder sell because you must have Poser 10 or 2014.  There is no option outside of the core program for P9 users to get her or whatnot.  Personally I would have offered her in some way outside of P10, even if you had to bake a single subdivision on the mesh and morphs.  A free, core, try before you buy version of the figure would also be welcome.

Just my opinion.

Quote - Often, I feel a good (and tried and true) strategy is to offer the core figure for free and then do pay-for addons with a good mix of freebies in there.

This worked for V4, works for Genesis and Dawn.  It works for my little toon guys.

Roxie is, in part, a harder sell because you must have Poser 10 or 2014.  There is no option outside of the core program for P9 users to get her or whatnot.  Personally I would have offered her in some way outside of P10, even if you had to bake a single subdivision on the mesh and morphs.  A free, core, try before you buy version of the figure would also be welcome.

Just my opinion.

True. On the other hand, they got me to buy Poser 10, just to get the figures, cuz I missed the sale on PP2014 (I have it now, from the upgrade sale). 

I may not be a typical customer, in that regard. But there may be enough like me to justify their strategy. It's impossible to really know what the vast unknown universe of customers who don't post in forums are doing.

"patorak3d : I like V5 Super Model best.
Poser10 ,Pro 14. first version to have SubD's.
Can't tell you what you alt to do about Reverse compatibility.
but I would ask myself ,Why are they still using a old Poser."

How do you like Pro14,  so far?

BTW,  what are the key issues with Dawn?

Quote - "patorak3d : I like V5 Super Model best.
Poser10 ,Pro 14. first version to have SubD's.
Can't tell you what you alt to do about Reverse compatibility.
but I would ask myself ,Why are they still using a old Poser."

How do you like Pro14,  so far?

BTW,  what are the key issues with Dawn?

vilters is the one that has issues with Dawn.
I have no issues with Dawn.

Just need 10 to render characters.

You need Pro 14 to make characters.
Pro 14 & D/S Pro 4 are rather primative compared to C4D ,Max etc etc
There about 10 years behind in tech.
So if you aim to make characters in them expect to cuss a lot.
They support displacement maps. do not support vector maps.

What about why a character makes it or not is.
standing behind your character.
suporting ya character.
if the creater leaves ,why would anyone else stay ?

quads,tri's,desent polycount ,free ,for sell,good topology for muscles ,Morphs,content creaters support etc etc.
All good arguements .so lets see if we can punch holes in them.

V3 had tri's she made it.Scratch Tri's out.

V3,V4 had a ridiculous polycount .Scratch polycount out.

Maximus was free and had a lot of morphs.
Never see a render with him in it.
D/S Pro 4 is free but we still buy Poser.
Blender is Free and can do a 1000 more things then
DAZ Poser can do but we still buy Poser.
Scratch free out.

good topology for muscles.
ya can make a 3000 polycount game mesh
look like arnold schwarzenegger with normal maps.
just imagin what ya can do with displacment maps.
Scratch topology out.

content creaters support.
it's how alot judge if a character is popular or not.
and would be very helpful to your cause.
I hate to but I half to agree content creaters support is important.
Never a good thing to be dependent on strangers.

"You need Pro 14 to make characters.
Pro 14 & D/S Pro 4 are rather primative compared to C4D ,Max etc etc
There about 10 years behind in tech.
So if you aim to make characters in them expect to cuss a lot.
They support displacement maps. do not support vector maps."

Poser is ten years behind,  but it is solid when it comes to the basics.  I'll check out SM tomorrow.

You're over simplifying.  It's isn't all cut and dry like that.

Poser and DS, for the most part, are animation and figure posing tools.  Though you can rig, morph, and other things with them.  Poser Pro 2014 at full price is 1/7 the cost of Max, 1/8 the cost of C4D, if you get the versions with all features.  Plus those higher end programs are also meant for other purposes like modeling.

When it comes to companies, free is usually not really free.  There are exceptions but they are usually lead-ins.  I'm talking very very generally here, not about "movements" such as open source.

DS is free but it is a lead in, where revenue is generated in content, plugins and so on.

Figures that are free often lead back to content that at least minimally supports them.

Freebies are great.  I love freebies.  I make freebies and love sharing them and seeing folks use them.  But revenue has to be generated somewhere, somehow or it isn't sustainable.  Even those making freeware and so on are getting donations (or kickstarters) or do it in their spare time or perhaps are independently wealthy, for all I know :)

Quote - You're over simplifying.  It's isn't all cut and dry like that.

Poser and DS, for the most part, are animation and figure posing tools.  Though you can rig, morph, and other things with them.  Poser Pro 2014 at full price is 1/7 the cost of Max, 1/8 the cost of C4D, if you get the versions with all features.  Plus those higher end programs are also meant for other purposes like modeling.

When it comes to companies, free is usually not really free.  There are exceptions but they are usually lead-ins.  I'm talking very very generally here, not about "movements" such as open source.

DS is free but it is a lead in, where revenue is generated in content, plugins and so on.

Figures that are free often lead back to content that at least minimally supports them.

Freebies are great.  I love freebies.  I make freebies and love sharing them and seeing folks use them.  But revenue has to be generated somewhere, somehow or it isn't sustainable.  Even those making freeware and so on are getting donations (or kickstarters) or do it in their spare time or perhaps are independently wealthy, for all I know :)

Your mixing 2 diffrent post of mine togeather.

from one post.
DAZ,Blender is free but we still buy Poser.

from another post.
patorak3d asked how I liked Pro 14.
I just explained not to expect top of the line character creation tools.

Haven't been following this thread properly, so bear in mind there's a lot I haven't read yet, but just wanted to say that my opinion is that Smith Micro need to look after the vendor.

By that, I mean they need to supply an official content developer guide for Poser, something that will allow a potential content developer to pick it up, be able to read through the various technologies in Poser, examples of how to use them, and be able to come to educated decisions on how they'd like to go about something based on what they learned.

From there, the vendor is in the best position possible to create the best possible content for Poser.

The chain is this: SmithMicro>Vendor>Customer, so in order for it to work smoothly back up that chain, the vendor (the one stuck in the middle of it all) needs a smooth time of it or they simply won't bother (and that's the problem Poser faces).  The vendor will likely look to DAZ instead, so that's where the products are going.  That's basically what's happening (in my opinion).

Poser has good figure technology, it lacks for nothing, really,  in that respect, but they need to ensure the people responsible for creating the content (the vendors) are provided with what they need to do the best job possible.  Poser is full of tech, trouble is it's a nightmare peicing it all together because there is no content developers guide.

It's kinda like a game engine developer expecting a game developer to embrace their engine if there is no support documentation for it.  From a logical and technical point of view, it's every bit as obvious as it sounds:

No documentation = uneducated vendor = poor outcome.
Good documentation = educated vendor = better outcome.

And again, what does what Smith Micro does or does not do, have to do with Dawn? 

There are several content creation tutorials available on Smith Micro's website. They also have a YouTube channel with videos ranging from short lessons to 1-2 hr long webinars showing how to use Poser and all its latest features. Between these resources and the included reference manual, this is how I learned to create content for Poser P7 up to 2014. There are also several 3rd party resources online ranging in topics. Granted, a wiki would be good but it's not 100% necessary. If you only have P10 then a lot of the newest content creation methods are unavailable to you, so most of what you're able to do is legacy-based features. 

Anyway, how about we get off the topic of Smith Micro except where it deals specifically with Dawn.

~Shane

"And again, what does what Smith Micro does or does not do, have to do with Dawn?"

Well, quite a lot when they start offering her in bundles with Poser!

As I read it, the thread is about what happened to Dawn's Fire.  I just gave my opinion of what happened to Dawn's Fire: If anything she's suffering the same fate as everything else that is aimed at Poser but is not Vickie related.

The same fate will continue for all vendors no matter what is released until a solid foundation for creating quality content is provided to the vendor.  Documentation dotted around the web, and videos dotted around YouTube, doesn't constitite an official developers guide.

A content developers guide is something you expect to exist by default, something you can pick up, read, and reference absolutely anything you need to regarding the technology used in the product you're vending for.  No such "official" guide exists for Poser content developers, so the situation is only going to get worse if they don't sort it out.

And what does Dawn's success have to do with all this if she's created by a skilled developer?

The success of ventures like Dawn don't just rely upon the skill of the developer.  Dawn has probably the best guy behind her from a developer point of view, but if she's targeted towards something that the general userbase sees as pointless, she's not going to do well.  People generally aren't going to invest in something that is seen to be unpopular.

And that's the thing, every figure that is not Vicky is effectively unpopular in comparison to her.  That popularity is never going to shift in SmithMicro's favour unless they sort the vendor situation out.  And one thing I can say with absolute 100% certaintly is that it's never going to happen until the vendors are in a position to make that happen.

They're never going to be in a position to make that happen until the vendors have a complete developers guide to work from.  Like I said, it's like a game engine developer expecting game developers to embrace and do well with their engine, and all without official developer documentation.  Sorry, but it isn't going to happen.

In effect, Poser is the engine and vendors are the game developers, and without that sort of documentation, we're pretty much screwed (and so it the program as a result) because the program's success depends on good quality content.

As Shane said : Your last anwer is again completely unrelated to DAWN.

As for a developpers guide?

I have Blender, Poser, ten fingers and a brain; Nothing more is required.

Unlike you I have PP2014, so I do have some extra tools available.
But? ? All can be done in Poser 7,8,9,10 also.
Most high quality content creators are still on Poser7 because they want their products to be backwards compatible.

Like most, I also started with nothing and a gazillion questions.
But I started.

What figure we build for?
Who cares?
That is every individuals choice and completey unrelated to DAWN or any other figure around.

I like dark hair, others like blond hair. Some like thin breasts, others like large breasts.
That what makes us all different.

The main issue is? Start building, and stop ranting and bashing, it serves NO purpose at all.

Again, as Shane said:

Blender (I take Blender as an example as it is free) has a TON of tutorials and even complete tutorial series on youtube.

SM has cataloged, written, and video tutorials, on their own site and on youtube.

All one has to do is have some good will, sit down, read and look. (And nip on your tea or coffee)

Every negative minute of your complaining is "lost time".

Clothes? Want a tutorial on clothes?
I found 15 completely different ways to make clothes.

I even build dynamic clothes inside Poser without ever leaving Poser.
But? That requires "thinking outside of the box."

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3903852&ebot_calc_page#message_3903852

Check the above, for a brainfart of mine in 2012. LOL.

Back in 2006 I wrote this for Poser 5 using the most elementary of 3D apps ; anim8or

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2676905

So now you tell me how hard, or easy it is to stack 15 cubes, cut some holes, and end with a dynamic dress.

This little tutorial of mine, however basic it was, got a whole generation of dynamic clothing builders started. BACK in 2006

pumeco rtfm and learn; instead of complaining that you don't have access to info.

Personally, I like and use Dawn. I find her easy to use and except for the ghost bones easy to develope for. Does she need more support to conquor the market? Yeppers. Remember that there is no "best" figure to use in ANY software. It's what you choose to do with it that matters.

Those that can, do. Those that want to learn, study. Those that whine, get ignored.

What are Dawn's ghost bones for?