You both sound like you're picking arguments.

@Vilters
I know more about business and marketing than you'd ever be capable of comprehending.  Shane's comment doesn't mean I wasn't talking relevant, it means he wasn't aware I was talking relevant.  I've since pointed out why it was (and is) relevant.

Whether you agree with me has no bearing on how relevant it remains, and I had no idea that my opinion had to be validated by everyone that has the potential to read it.  You think I'm wrong, I know I'm right, that's good enough for me.

@Parkdalegardener
Perhaps I need to explain it a little better for you, I'll give it a go while avoiding the ignorant tone you seem to enjoy using.

I have no problem learning stuff, I enjoy learning.  The point is there is no official Poser content developer documentation to learn.  You also need to understand the difference between whining about something and pointing something out.  I was not whining.  I was pointing something out that is missing and is required.  The requirement is not unique to Poser, it applies to anything where a third party is expected to create content for another companies product.

Vendors aren't mind readers, programmers aren't mind readers.  A vendor should not be expected to develop content for Poser without adequate developer documentation, any more than a person new to machine code would be expected to know how to program a device without the documentation for it.

Scenario for you:

DAZ = No official content development guide.
SmithMicro = No official content development guide.

It's not as important in DAZ's case because DAZ already have something to draw the users, they have Victoria.  SmithMicro have no Victoria.  And because they have no Victoria, they have less of an attraction in the field of "content", because "content", for the most part, revolves around the users most used figure.

Dawn, no mater how good she is, is just another figure when she's aimed at a program where the content is centered around a figure produced by a competing company.  This isn't rocket science, it's not the sort of thing a company should even have to discuss.  It's something that is blazingly obvious, and until they rectify that, actions like bundling Dawn with Poser is effectively pissing into the wind.

Like I said, I like the idea of Dawn, I think the logic behind her is "good business", but she's been dropped into an unwelcoming community, and the reason it's unwelcoming is for the same reason time and time again:

It's because she's not Vickie.

"Poser really has been bought and sold more then any other CGI Software.and I really do wish a CGI company any of them DAZ, HiveWire3d ,MAX ,LW ,Blender ,zBrush etc etc would buy Poser."

Why would any of the above buy poser??..... I cant comment about "Hivewire" as they are unknown to me, however in the case of Autodesk I dont see poser as adding any value to their brand as they are a professional CG production entity geared towards Film& Games.
And they already have their OWN poser like character creator that produces a variety of characters in the NATIVE Autodesk formats
http://area.autodesk.com/products/charactergenerator

Newtek?? Well they produce a full CG Creative Suite with its own set of character creation and auto rigging tools and if a LW user needs a premade rigged character in a pinch there are many online services such as this one:
https://www.mixamo.com/c/free-3d-characters
that offer premade characters in a compatible format.

Zbrush?? Again a high end model CREATION Suite that has special& powerful tools for Creating  CG characters, not loading and rendering ready made content( ie.poser figures)

Blender is  an Open source project poser is $Commercial Software$.

DAZ?... they dont need poser...period.
They have there own tightly integrated native figure system,content market,vendor pool,and posing and rendering app.

Pumeco: "Pointing out" is something one does ONCE.
Completely different from saturating and polluting each and every tread with SM ranting and bashing.

RTM, Read The Manual, starting at page 1.
Read the tutorials available.

Sorry chap, that's the last word spend on you.

Dawn was a good lesson for content creators.  Those who chased the "ultimate figure" were disappointed and have, one by one, returned to developing for a more mainstream model.  At this point it is a relatively minor annoyance to verify that an item is not "for dawn" prior to purchasing.  Neither fish, nor fowl, she has extremely limited potential ... regardless of her pedigree.

If one designs and manufactures accessories exclusively for Trabants or Wartburgs, one should not be surprised that the market is rather limited.

Klebnor

On the other hand, I think the horse was a good move. Some people are completely irrational about animals (myself included), and Hivewire is not only a Dawn shop, but is also strong on nature content, with the plants and the birds they already sell. Apparently the horse contains an amazing amount of Dawn mesh as well.

Quote - Vendors aren't mind readers, programmers aren't mind readers.  A vendor should not be expected to develop content for Poser without adequate developer documentation, any more than a person new to machine code would be expected to know how to program a device without the documentation for it.

Scenario for you:

DAZ = No official content development guide.
SmithMicro = No official content development guide.

I don't understand. You're saying that vendors aren't making content for Dawn because they don't have a developer's guide, so they can't make content because they don't know how?

How are they making content then?

If they are a vendor, then they are making content. They already know how. That's a given.

If you're saying that YOU aren't making content for Dawn because you don't know how, that's different. But please say so. Don't generalize to all vendors because it doesn't make sense.

Also, Smith Micro is NOT a content developer.

Quote - Also, Smith Micro is NOT a content developer.

I am not even sure, that Smith Micro the company even knows that they own Poser... The Company is about: "Connect. Control. Capitalize. Helping you survive in a mobile world." (from their website www.smithmicro.com). If you check their last financial report/conference call, you can see that ALL of their consumer software and graphics stuff combined accounts for only ~19% of their revenue (on the bright side it is the only part that did not crash and burn last quarter...). Poser is only a small item in that category. 

TD

@Moriador
No, that's not what I meant, or said.

What "we" all mean, is that "we" all know how to make content.

And that some new content creators are doing a pretty fine job at it too.

And?
They think in a positive and creative way, ask productive, and the right questions.

They do not look for problems, oh no, but search for solutions, and seem to find them pretty-pretty easy.

And "we" old timers, help wherever we can.

This may have been mentioned before but when Dawn came out there was already this rush to move on to the Genesis figure as well and some customers were left bitter and confused by it all.  Both introductions seemed rushed to me, almost as if they had to see who could bait the larger part of the customer base, though in that aspect Genesis did have the home field advantage.

From the standpoint of someone who was not sold on just one figure or the other at first the Daz line seemed more complete and supported then Dawn herself did.  I did not know what was going to happen on either side, but as time went on it seemed Dawn's cycle of support kind of withered away while Genesis continued to get its fans and cheerleaders.

Hivewire seems to have some talented modelers, I don't believe that they are not a force to be reckoned with.  

Quote - This may have been mentioned before but when Dawn came out there was already this rush to move on to the Genesis figure as well and some customers were left bitter and confused by it all.  Both introductions seemed rushed to me, almost as if they had to see who could bait the larger part of the customer base, though in that aspect Genesis did have the home field advantage.

From the standpoint of someone who was not sold on just one figure or the other at first the Daz line seemed more complete and supported then Dawn herself did.  I did not know what was going to happen on either side, but as time went on it seemed Dawn's cycle of support kind of withered away while Genesis continued to get its fans and cheerleaders.

Hivewire seems to have some talented modelers, I don't believe that they are not a force to be reckoned with.  

I haven't seen support for Dawn "wither" away, but I imagine that with the big build up Dawn received, and the excitement around her, some people have been somewhat disillusioned that she wasn't the Genesis killer  a lot of people wanted her to be. But I still see the main brokerages selling things for Dawn, well, all except DAZ, of course. And a number iof the people who used to post here in support of Dawn have migrated over to the Hivewire forums. They still come here occasionally, but for the most part, I see them over there, happily supporting their favorite figure. So if you think support has "withered away", I just don't see it.

@Vilters
I'm well aware of what you mean, trouble is, you obviously don't grasp what I mean.

Telling me that old timers at Poser do fine, is fine, if you're an old timer at Poser.  With a statement like that, then, surely you must also understand that the current "content" situation (and that includes Dawn), is the result of the way things are.

Do you think that the potential Poser vendors out there would be harmed by having a full-on guide on how to develop content for Poser, with every type of technology it contains, fully documented and demonstrated?

It doesn't matter what way you look at it, one thing you can be sure of is that the way things are, is a direct result of the way things have been handled so far.  This thread, and the endless others like it, exist for one reason:  it's because the way it's being handled so far, is not working.

The reason it's not working is because Victoria has the monopoly.  Victoria has the monopoly !!!>>>because<<<!!! there is nothing on the Poser side to compete with her in popularity.  The reason there is nothing on the Poser side to compete, is because content makers are generally not interested in supporting something that is not as popular as the "other" option they have.

Like it or not, Victoria is what makes DS a success, it's not DS that makes DS a success.  It's exactly like I pointed out in a thread a long time ago; Smith Micro need their own "Mascot Girl", their Victoria equivalent.  It's vital they have something like that, because content revolves around a users most used figure.

Therefore, it's bad news that Poser users most used figure, is produced by a competing company.  I really don't know how to make that any clearer!

There's nothing wrong with Dawn in concept, nothing at all.  The mistake is that they promoted her without an effective backup campaign to go along with it.  I mean for crying out loud, people are complaining there were no morphs for her!

Such ill thought-out campaigns are destined to failure.  So there you go, Vilters, either try to understand what I'm explaining here, or please stick to what you said earlier; that you'll not be wasting your words on me.

Any more nonsense from you and I'm telling Roxie!

Quote - > Quote - This may have been mentioned before but when Dawn came out there was already this rush to move on to the Genesis figure as well and some customers were left bitter and confused by it all.  Both introductions seemed rushed to me, almost as if they had to see who could bait the larger part of the customer base, though in that aspect Genesis did have the home field advantage.

From the standpoint of someone who was not sold on just one figure or the other at first the Daz line seemed more complete and supported then Dawn herself did.  I did not know what was going to happen on either side, but as time went on it seemed Dawn's cycle of support kind of withered away while Genesis continued to get its fans and cheerleaders.

Hivewire seems to have some talented modelers, I don't believe that they are not a force to be reckoned with.  

I haven't seen support for Dawn "wither" away, but I imagine that with the big build up Dawn received, and the excitement around her, some people have been somewhat disillusioned that she wasn't the Genesis killer  a lot of people wanted her to be. But I still see the main brokerages selling things for Dawn, well, all except DAZ, of course. And a number iof the people who used to post here in support of Dawn have migrated over to the Hivewire forums. They still come here occasionally, but for the most part, I see them over there, happily supporting their favorite figure. So if you think support has "withered away", I just don't see it.

I see.  

I've seen some things pop up for Dawn, the new products here and at another store were what made me decide to look into her a little more then before, and I was probably disillusioned as well by the same fact that you posted.  Being a newer customer for this figure I haven't been so involved with her community so I did not realize that a number of her supporters moved to hivewire.  I just remember her coming out strong and then things kind of calmed down on her behalf. 

One thing that peaked my interest was the talk of the male counterpart.  I hope that is still a possibility and I am really interested to see how he looks.  :)

Quote - I see.  

I've seen some things pop up for Dawn, the new products here and at another store were what made me decide to look into her a little more then before, and I was probably disillusioned as well by the same fact that you posted.  Being a newer customer for this figure I haven't been so involved with her community so I did not realize that a number of her supporters moved to hivewire.  I just remember her coming out strong and then things kind of calmed down on her behalf. 

One thing that peaked my interest was the talk of the male counterpart.  I hope that is still a possibility and I am really interested to see how he looks.  :)

Chris Creek is currently working on the Dusk figure. He's posted a few pics over on the Hivewire forum. He looks pretty good to me.

Quote - Chris Creek is currently working on the Dusk figure. He's posted a few pics over on the Hivewire forum. He looks pretty good to me.

Really, sweet! Thank you for letting me know I'm going to go have a look :)  

They're going to call a male mesh, Dusk?
I mean I get it, from Dawn until Dusk, but still :biggrin:

I think that's the first time I smiled today, haha!

HighEnd app's buy plugs for there app's all the time.
Poser fussion is for Max, Maya, CINEMA 4D and LightWave.

Poser has never had a strong suported in house mesh no matter what none CGI company owned Poser.
That would change for sure if DAZ ,Hivewire bought them.
Autodesk boult Maya & Softimage and they didn't need eather one period.
zBrush makes the badest characters of all
,so if they had Poser you know we would have killer characters.
Vicky was made in LW ,Modo.
why would anyone objects to a open sourse Blender Poser.
Blender has some killer tools.

Anyone know what SmithMicro paid for Poser ?
Maybe we could buy Poser ourselves.
Harley Davidson was boult by their employees.

Quote - HighEnd app's buy plugs for there app's all the time.
Poser fussion is for Max, Maya, CINEMA 4D and LightWave.

Poser has never had a strong suported in house mesh no matter what none CGI company owned Poser.
That would change for sure if DAZ ,Hivewire bought them.
Autodesk boult Maya & Softimage and they didn't need eather one period.
zBrush makes the badest characters of all
,so if they had Poser you know we would have killer characters.
Vicky was made in LW ,Modo.
why would anyone objects to a open sourse Blender Poser.
Blender has some killer tools.

Anyone know what SmithMicro paid for Poser ?
Maybe we could buy Poser ourselves.
Harley Davidson was boult by their employees.

Rorrkonn, while I do find that to be an interesting question, it has nothing to do with Dawn or this thread. My suggestion would be for you to start a new thread and ask the question again. Because if I answer it here, I have no doubt that what I or someone else would answer would quickly be considered as DAZ bashing and the thread would be locked.

"Anyone know what SmithMicro paid for Poser ?*
Maybe we could buy Poser ourselves."

Well I'm in if you are, RorrKonn, I could chip-in with a few thousand :lol:

Sorry Clarkie, didn't see your post.

You don't need a content manual in order to learn how to build content. This has been established. Vendors have been doing just fine without an official content construction manual for about as long as Poser has existed. That's why this forum exists, to ask questions on things where the user manual and other resources don't provide the best answers. I'm working on generating interest in a Poser wiki here for Renderosity where others can contribute their knowledge, but it takes a long time to compile that information.

Anyone with the patience and time to do the research can write their own content creation manual if they wanted. You don't need Smith Micro's permission. Chances are that by the time it's done the next version of Poser will be out and at least a third of the info you've compiled will be outdated. There was a book on all the "secrets" to content creation and rendering that had a few updated editions but it seems to have stopped around P8.

Many software companies do not write their own training manuals. They provide basic user manuals and rely on their user base to provide the more in-depth training. That's part of the vendor support for Poser. Many vendors create and sell their own tutorials, but they're all based on information that's freely available online and in the user manual if you just take the time to look for it. 

There is no official word from Smith Micro or HiveWire on plans for Dawn to be bundled with Poser. At least none that I can find. There may be promotions here and there but that's not the same thing. That's just a promotion. 

Dawn is not a failed figure. She's been the most successful 3rd party figure so far, aside from the DAZ figures. Content is still being made and sold for her. It may be a small portion of the market compared to others, but it is still there. One of the biggest reasons there aren't as many people using her or making content for her, as there are for V4, is because she requires P9+ to be useable in Poser, and a large percentage of Poser users are still using P5 - P8, which V4 is compatible with. Dawn is not compatible with those versions. So naturally she's not going to be as widely used. No figure will be, until the majority of P5 - P8 users upgrade to P9 or higher. Believe it or not there are still people using P4 with Gen 2 and 3 figures, with no intention of upgrading, or no means of doing so. I know because I get requests from them from time to time to do custom content, but I don't work in anything prior to P7, and they generally don't want to pay my rates anyway. 

Any figures created that require P9+ in order to function are going to have a much smaller support system because they're not backwards compatible. And even if they were, why would anyone need to use them when they have Gen 3 & 4 figures that already function just fine in older versions of Poser and have plenty of content available already? The only real reason would be to have a new toy to play with. 

Yes Poser definitely needs a figure that takes advantage of all the latest Poser tech and is designed with attention to detail, but that figure still won't be as popular because it will require the latest version of Poser, and Poser requires money to upgrade, while DS is always free. So at most, that figure will take a long time to gain traction even with a lot of people supporting it innitially. Much more time than the year or so that Dawn has been around I'm sure, because Dawn can be used in DS without requiring Poser. The catch to that is, more Dawn users are making content for her in Poser than in DS because DS has Genesis and really doesn't need a non-genesis figure. Poser's tech currently doesn't match DS tech in many aspects, so even there, that glorius new Poser figure will not be as versatile as a DS figure and will therefore be more complicated to build for, and more of a learning curve for the end user. Maybe P11/2016 will change that, but for now that is the way things are. It's very difficult to compete with free, when your product is not free. Anyone with a somewhat decent machine can start using DS and build content for Genesis 1 or 2 without ever having to buy a single piece of anything. The same can not be said for Poser or any of its figures. 

As I see it, Dawn has done as well (if not better) as can be expected for any 3rd party figure, and it doesn't look like she's going away any time soon. I'm not a fan of Dawn myself, but I do like the new horse, and I plan to add it to my runtime and start building content for it as soon as I get the time to do so. At the moment I'm a bit more interested in the new Daz dragon as I have some specific ideas for it that haven't been done so far, that I can find.

Anyway, really - stop the arguing. I'm not going to keep saying it, I'll just start handing out warnings and suspensions. There's no reason this topic can't be discussed maturely without disrespecting each other or talking smack about other companies and their business practices. 

~Shane

I honestly don't think Hivewire needs or wants to ship their figure with Poser. Why, when you can get it free online anyway? And they're already perceived as being too close to the Poser side of development anyway. By the way, Hivewire  offers a service, I believe, to convert your Poser-specific product to DS and verse vysa.

@pumeco --- Content Creation:

Shane has already said a lot of this but...

The Poser Reference Manual does have the basics of turning an obj into a figure.  In fact, it has entire section on it (Part 7 of the manual).

Often we old timers would de-construct existing content (read through it in a text editor or look at it in a treeview editor), experiment and figure things out.

Tools available are any decent text editor - a programmers' editor would be best.  For treeview editors there is Poser File Editor by D3D, available here and the most robust option currently, Cr2 Builder, Cr2 Editor, Pz3edit by PhilC.

I use: Notepad++, Cr2 Builder and Poser File Editor.  I like Cr2 Builder the best but it chokes on large files and weight-mapped figures.

Secrets of Figure Creation in Poser 5 was a very good source in the old days.  I have it in paperback on my shelf.  It is still a good read and a lot of it still applies but you have to read between the lines now as many of the "gotchas" have been fixed over the years.

I bought a disk from Philc MANY years ago what was also about figure creation and very, very useful.

Head over to YouTube and type in "poser rigging figures".  You'll get a lot of valuable results.

Quote - As I see it, Dawn has done as well (if not better) as can be expected for any 3rd party figure, and it doesn't look like she's going away any time soon. I'm not a fan of Dawn myself, but I do like the new horse, and I plan to add it to my runtime and start building content for it as soon as I get the time to do so.

This (and the rest of your post) was what I aiming for, but you said it much, much better. :)

And the new horse does look good. I hope to get it before it goes off sale. New content for it would be very welcome indeed.

Does Dawn have the Poser standard gimbals?

Quote - Does Dawn have the Poser standard gimbals?

As far as I know, she does, but the gimbal system isn't Poser only.

"As far as I know, she does, but the gimbal system isn't Poser only."

Well said and thank you for reminding me.

As for the bone hierarchy,  does Dawn have the left/right breast and/or left/right buttock?

Considering the obstacles Dawn faces, she has done well. I have done some checking in my runtimes.

I now have more characters/textures for Dawn than for any Poser G2 figure (Jessi, Sydney, Olivia etc), and I own just about every decent character that has been produced for them, and even resorted to making some myself because there were so few.

I finally have a reasonable set of morphs for Dawn, but to get them I had to buy several packages, some of them by third parties. It cost me quite a bit to get the morphs, because I snapped them up as soon as they appeared and didn't wait for sales. I still don't have a way of ageing Dawn effectively unless I make the morph myself. I can live with that.

My Dawn now has more clothes (most of them free) than Michelle. There are many pieces of clothing for her that I won't buy, because I have no use for them. But my Dawn is OK, she is dressed. As my mother would say: "Her ass is covered".

The two figures I own that have more textures and clothes than Dawn, are V3 and V4. That is not really a fair comparison, they have had a huge head start. Dawn hasn't taken over the world, but in terms of support she definitely has done better than Alyson2/Anastasia, Michelle, Cynthia or Angela. Roxie, bless her heart, is not even in the running. I am not sure how Dawn's success compares with Miki4, I don't really keep up with the Japanese Poser sites. 

Overall, I would say that is not bad. I doubt whether any new figure will equal the Vickies again, the landscape has changed so much.

For the Poser user who doesn't want to use Vicky all the time, Dawn is a viable alternative.

Quote - Rorrkonn, while I do find that to be an interesting question, it has nothing to do with Dawn or this thread. My suggestion would be for you to start a new thread and ask the question again. Because if I answer it here, I have no doubt that what I or someone else would answer would quickly be considered as DAZ bashing and the thread would be locked.

EClark1894: this is one of the most confusing responses I've ever gotten.
not sure how to respond.

I'm not sure why your telling me what's on topic on my thread.
I named ALL the app's why are we concentrating on just one ?
You want me to start a new thread so you can DAZ bash on that thread ?
I don't want it on any of my threads and Renderosity does not allowed it on any thread.

Quote - "As far as I know, she does, but the gimbal system isn't Poser only."

Well said and thank you for reminding me.

As for the bone hierarchy,  does Dawn have the left/right breast and/or left/right buttock?

No. Her breasts are part of Chest 2, her upper rear/lower back are part of Hip, and the more fleshy lower portion of her 'cheeks' are on Pelvis.

Quote - > Quote - Rorrkonn, while I do find that to be an interesting question, it has nothing to do with Dawn or this thread. My suggestion would be for you to start a new thread and ask the question again. Because if I answer it here, I have no doubt that what I or someone else would answer would quickly be considered as DAZ bashing and the thread would be locked.

EClark1894: this is one of the most confusing responses I've ever gotten.
not sure how to respond.

I'm not sure why your telling me what's on topic on my thread.
I named ALL the app's why are we concentrating on just one ?
You want me to start a new thread so you can DAZ bash on that thread ?
I don't want it on any of my threads and Renderosity does not allowed it on any thread.

Okay:

a) Yes, I know you started the thread, but the topic you chose was Dawn and her popularity.

b) I have no intention of bashing DAZ. I never do. However certain people in this forum... (You know what? Check your site mail for the rest of my answer.)

**
@Netherworks**
Cheers mate, I hear you on that (I even bought the same book)!

Anyway, after Shane's comment I've decided to stop wasting my time explaining things on sites like these.  It's a bit like Wiz said about people not realising how damaging being a moderator can be to your health.  I've never been a moderator, but I understand exactly what he means because it's no different when you try to explain stuff but constantly come-off as a trouble-causer.  I sit here in absolute disbelief at some of the replies I get to my comments.  And no offence, but I'm way too intelligent to be dealing with some of the answers I get here; sometimes I'm talking to people on a whole different level!

Well screw that, I've taken as much of that as I'm prepared to accept, and the only way to avoid having to deal with more of it, is to just leave 'em to it.

From now on I'll just sit back and laugh at the absolute chaos these two companies are creating between themselves.  The only reason chaos like this exists in the first place, is because of the petty war games these two companies are using against each other regards the figure/content formats.  The only ones that suffer as a result, are the customers, and when the customers complain, they get silenced.

That sort of crap is not acceptable to me, so in order to avoid further threats of being silenced for speaking facts, I'll leave it to the rest here.  In other words, I'll voluntarily keep quiet, because I'm not the sort of guy to stand for having my voice silenced for speaking facts.

An official content developers guide is required for a product designed to be supported by content, and that's all there is to it.

I'm not wasting another second on that one.  What these companies should be doing is fighting it out on the grounds of stability and giving users what they want in the program.   They should be fighting each other with features designed to entice the users to their program, not scare them away.  Instead, they're playing the format-war bullshit, and every one who uses either of these programs is suffering as a result.

If these companies don't like the complaints when a user can't get something working as a result of all this bull, then guess what, they need to sort their act out and stop creating these situations in the first place.

What they have here is a result of their own actions, it's the "user bashing" that needs to stop!

I don't use Dawn but I do think she has done well considering the difficulties that the figure had to overcome, many already outlined in this thread.  I still have her in my runtime and hope that at some point in the future to be able to use her on a regular basis.

Having Poser 2014 and the cloth room the limited content for Dawn is not an issue for me but the lack of morphs is.  The situation is changing slowly but it needs to reach a point, for me at least, where I can build a character that will  hopefully look quite different from the base figure.  I have yet to decide if the base Dawn is too strong a character to allow her to me modified as much as V4. 

Of course it is unfair to compare a figure as new to the market as Dawn is with V4 who seems to have been here forever but I do need a little more convincing that she will get there in the end.  For me she has started well but has not reached the point where I will invest time in her rather then V4WM but I hope it is just a matter of time.

My perspective on what snuffed the flames for myself.

I was excited about Dawn on her release, as it was a new figure to work with. I had my reservations about the HW3D crew, but pushed that aside.

Upon her release, I only had Poser 7, which I was taking her into Daz setting up the scene and exporting it back to poser as obj, applying textures in poser for rendering, and making dynamic clothing for.

They had my support until they extended their big contest. It may sound petty to some of you. But from my perspective, when I work hard on something with a very limited computer and spend money on content in which I normally don't need, and modelled out my own stuff for Dawn for the images I made, by the deadline of the contest using what was available and making it work. Which is what I am guessing was the "challenge" in the first place. Using a dino pc from 2002, Poser 7, Daz Studio 4.whatever version # at the time (which I had to take the time to figure out certain things), wings3d, I didn't get Poser 10 until I had 3 images left for the contest entry limit, which 3 were allowed for each site holding entries.

When they extended the contest, their reasoning was for mainly because the quality of the works already submitted, people wanted to use the morphs that were initially part of the prize pack and weren't even created yet. I am sure there was more reasonings that I am forgetting, but those were the two that miffed me.

The way I see it, is I just spent the past 2 months of my life doing this contest in the spare time I had, with my at then limited resources,when I could have been doing more productive things. and now upon the deadline the contest extending it because the above mentioned reasoning.

Also when stating the discontent with the situation to be met by responces which were in my eyes lacklusters from the vendors and the reps from HW3D. To pretty much getting torn apart by the supporters of the extenion because I expressed an opinion that conflicted their interest. And trust I was being as nice as my claws were allowing me to be.

Sure could have went with the fact that I could do more work for an extended number of entries per site holding the contest. Sure I could have, but why? At that point was when they lost my support on using their figure, any vendor which got snippy at me for posting my disatisfaction over the extenion, lost any future sale from myself.

I could have seen an extenion by a week or two, but not the whole cycle of the contest. The reasoning behind their extenion was weak in my opinion. It made me feel they didn't do as they expected in content sales for the contest, which I get the have  a contest boosts sales angle, but if it doesn't pan out the way you dreamt up, learn from that mistake, but honor your initial conviction. The way it went showed me that their hype they were all about when trying to get Dawn popular was just a marketing angle to try and dethrone a past entity which they may have soured issues with. That single action speaks louder than the empty words of forum posts about patching a warring community. As many others have stated, their $ eyes were too big.

Who knows maybe I am the one wrong. Because how dare I speak my mind. But to give insight as from my perspective, that is why I don't use dawn at all, and is why I don't buy anything for Dawn or buy anything from their site. And is my reasoning to why Dawn's flame has been snuffed out of my content folders. Take it or leave it, it is just my perspective from my experience, and is not everyone's common experience.

"No. Her breasts are part of Chest 2, her upper rear/lower back are part of Hip, and the more fleshy lower portion of her 'cheeks' are on Pelvis."

Dawn's rigging sounds well thought out then.

"From now on I'll just sit back and laugh at the absolute chaos these two companies are creating between themselves.  The only reason chaos like this exists in the first place, is because of the petty war games these two companies are using against each other regards the figure/content formats. "

Sorry Mate, but the above is quite an unfair characterization of both SM& DAZ inc.
if indeed there is any "chaos" in these online user forums over formats/figures it is due to people becoming too emotionally attached to a particular software package and the " tribal culture" surrounding it.
DAZ&SM  has as much right to their Proprietary Formats as Autodesk ,Maxon, Newtek, SideFX et al.

Now we can engage park bench speculation about the business/market Wisdom of such proprietary Formats
but to call their product development& target market choices "Petty" is just plain wrong.

"The only ones that suffer as a result, are the customers, and when the customers complain, they get silenced."

the internet is a big place what's to stop one from writing a word press blog bleeting all about how company X wont
make their 3D content formats compatible with thier beloved software from company Z. 

anyone with capable hardware and money can purchase
and use the latest version of poser

Anyone with capable hardware can Download the latest
build of the free Daz studio.

Access to all of the various formats is available to any consumer as an option...it is not however, a civil right.   
 

come on every one be nice and let it go .

we don't need to beat a dead horse endlessly.

we don't need to repeat the same thing a 1000 time.
when once will do.

AmbientShade :

have a thought

If you keep deleting inflammatory post .

inflammatory posters would have no reason to post.
and eventually stop being so aggravating to you.

and we could all live in peace with out are post getting locked for another's actions.

EClark1894 : Thanks for being so cool & trying your best to keep this thread from being locked.
It is sincerely appreciated.

mahakali : remind me to never have a contest for any of my meshes.
reminds me there where some mad over a zBrush contest .

I really, really want a +1 or a like button for posts on this forum.

(No -1 or dislike or thumbs down because then the moderator has to spend half the time dealing with people complaining about unfair or retaliatory downratings.)

Back on topic. From a user's standpoint, default Dawn is a lot better than default V4. Now that I have PP 2014, I find that V4's clothing is pretty easy to convert to Dawn in the fitting room. I haven't tried converting textures yet. But I'd guess Dawn is a very usable figure with some decent advantages over V4. All she's missing is support, and I think that will come over time. I guess we'll see.

Have any Dawn threads here not ended in a lock?

pumeco : When I was around 13 years old,there was a girl I liked that worked in this restaurant.
So i would set at a booth drink coke ,smoke cigs and draw comics.
It was cool but they had a sign on a wall that read.

"When two people argue ,which one is the fool"

I hated that sign.
I would fight anyone ,any time for any reason.
countless broke noses & concussions.
left arm broke twice.right wrist broke once.
I can walk not the spinal cord but I have had my back broke.
pelvic bone broke,busted kidney.
buy the time I was around 20 had very few teeth left.

I tore the sign down.but it would haunt my dreams in prison.

.

Uuuum....

Point of order here.

Poser doesn't -have- any new propietary file formats. CR2 is text. CRZ is zipped text. It doesn't handle a lot of the newer industry standard formats correctly, but it still has good compatibility with a lot of the older, persistent standards. Sure, I'd love pointcloud support; any animator would. And if we keep nagging, we may just get it.

There is no 'Vicky killer' for one simple reason. Vicky is a mesh. A resource. Nothing more. The original Victoria was next to unuseable until Traveler put out his morphs at Morphworld. Which stopped when some individuals wrapped them in their work and sold them without crediting the real creator.

So far as the g-thing is concerned, its creator has gone their own way. Sayonara. So it can be MacGuyvered into Poser; it doesn't work natively there. No heat there. Dawn is nothing but a resource, not the second coming of whatever. The V-things and assorted offshoots were never the second or first comings of anything. They were resources. Nothing more. They may have been hyped as something incredible, but that doesn't change the fact that if you copied their geometry file, changed the extension to .txt and hit print all you would get is a lot of pages of paper with matrix numbers on them. If I ever get good at rigging, I'll be converting all those old figures to Poser unimesh and wieghtmapping them. We still have more polys to play with than most games meshes, and a good percentage of pro level movie meshes.

Like anything, Dawn has pluses and big minuses. Not surprising for a 1.0 release. Constructive feedback is the only thing that will correct that. Note the first word of the previous sentence.  

@Rorr:

A reminder, don't have any contests with your mesh XD

Does Dawn have ghost bones?