Figures get a lot of critisim if the creators do not listen to their beta testers.

Get the correct beta testers, and LISTEN & REPAIR!

it is as simple as that.

Vilters, you should know by now that vendors don't listen to anything that could be construed as negative feedback.  They are only interested in hearing how great they are.

I don't know about figure bashing, but vendor bashing isn't too friendly, either. :P C'mon, man. Be fair. Lots of vendors create great products and are responsive to their customers' reasonable feedback. They may not always make what you want exactly how you want it, but then that's true of every industry. Painting every vendor with the same broad brush is unreasonable. It's this soft of hyperbolic language, I think, that upsets people.

Edit: I don't personally know many vendors. But I have spoken to a few from time to time, and the impression I get is that most work very hard to create the best products they can, especially given the enormous time constraints they experience. They are overjoyed when someone likes their work, and are devastated when people don't. And frankly for what we pay them, and the ease with which customers can dismiss MONTHS of their work over something trivial -- all but the outright fraudulent ones deserve a lot more appreciation.

It's largely the anonymity of the internet. If you know someone personally, you tend to soften or even avoid your critiques to them for fear of hurting their feelings.

Frankly, I'm my own biggest critic. I've started lots of things for Roxie and the Poser natives that didn't work out like I wanted and I just quit and started on something else.

It's largely the anonymity of the internet. If you know someone personally, you tend to soften or even avoid your critiques to them for fear of hurting their feelings.

Frankly, I'm my own biggest critic. I've started lots of things for Roxie and the Poser natives that didn't work out like I wanted and I just quit and started on something else.

Yes! That's the impression I get. So many times, I see WIP threads from artists, and I'm thinking, Wow, this is great! When will it be available? And inevitably the artist says, "I just have to fix such and such, and tweak such and such, and when I figure out how to fix this tiny little flaw that no one but me could possibly ever notice...." Sometimes, I think the more valuable feedback is when someone says, "It's done! It's good enough! You can stop now!" :)

Here's a good example. I've been working on this for a while now. Mainly trying to do the texture. I was just starting to import it into Poser for rigging, but the boots  have artifacts in Poser that I can't explain. They don't seem to exist in Blender. so I'm stumped.

Now I could just release the Denim Jacket and shorts as a set, but I think the boots really make this outfit work, so I'm trying to hold on until I can figure out the boots problem. In the meantime, I've moved on to a ruffle skirt with a floral top set for Roxie.

 Earl? If you want, you can send the boots over, I"ll have a look at them. You have my e-mail.
Have a nice day all.

Vilters to the rescue! (Makes me wish I had the endurance and patience to learn how to model in Blender -- or any app, for that matter -- because peeps here really are so helpful).

The outfit looks truly cool, EC. And actually, I do have to agree: the boots will be a great addition to it. You'll get them figured out, and in this case, it's surely worth the hassle to learn what's going wrong.

I don't know about figure bashing, but vendor bashing isn't too friendly, either. :P C'mon, man. Be fair. Lots of vendors create great products and are responsive to their customers' reasonable feedback. They may not always make what you want exactly how you want it, but then that's true of every industry. Painting every vendor with the same broad brush is unreasonable. It's this soft of hyperbolic language, I think, that upsets people.

Edit: I don't personally know many vendors. But I have spoken to a few from time to time, and the impression I get is that most work very hard to create the best products they can, especially given the enormous time constraints they experience. They are overjoyed when someone likes their work, and are devastated when people don't. And frankly for what we pay them, and the ease with which customers can dismiss MONTHS of their work over something trivial -- all but the outright fraudulent ones deserve a lot more appreciation.

Moriador, I am speaking from my own personal experience.  Brickbats come with dealing with the public and if vendors are too sensitive to it, they should be doing something that doesn't actually require them to deal with the public.
I am sick and damned tired of dropping money on content and then having to spend up to half an hour unscrewing a product because the vendor (and the storefront Q&A - I'm looking at you 'Rosity) was too damned lazy to do the job properly in the first place. 

I am tired of having to go and rename file subfolders because the vendor was too damned lazy to make sure that they were consistent throughout the product.

I am tired of having to delete ego folders, so I can actually find a vendor's product.

I am tired of having to go and create .mc6 files for a Poser 9+ product because the vendor is hell-bent on not leaving behind a Poser 6 workflow.

I am tired of having to go and rename every single material because the vendor decided that 01, 02, 03, was more descriptive than red, green, goldenrod, etc.

I am tired of having to go and delete leading !!!! because the vendor wants their product at the top of my file folder.

I am tired of having to remake thumbnails because the vendor decided to be "creative" and make thumbnails that don't show what the product actually looks like.

I am tired of having to go and rename products so Poser's search function actually works.

I am tired of having to rename folders because the vendor decidedtorrunthenameofeverythingtogether.  (Which also breaks the search function.)

I am tired of having to remove_all_of_the_unnecessary_underscores.  Poser & DS4 do not actually run on DOS.

I am tired of having to delete .rsr files in content made in 2014.

At the end of the day, I don't care how long the vendor spent making a product - as a customer, it is irrelevant.  Those "Enormous Time Constraints" are entirely of their own making.

I don't mind paying a lot more money for a product - what I mind is paying a lot for a product and then having to spend time unscrewing it because the vendor is hell-bent on not paying attention to detail.  My mantra to vendors is:

If you make your product hard to use, I am less like to buy from you in the future.

"I am tired of having to remove_all_of_the_unnecessary_underscores.  Poser & DS4 do not actually run on DOS"

As far as the names for valueParm and targetGeom  - if there is a space in the name - problems may occur. In Poser Editor:

targetGeom NameOneTwo or targetGeom Name_One_Two shows as:

key   targetGeom

value1 NameOneTwo  or Name_One_Two

while  targetGeom Name One Two shows as:

key  targetGeom

value1  Name

value2 One

value3 Two

I foresee problems with ERC code at the very least

Otherwise, I concur with your Writ of Irritations.

I don't know about figure bashing, but vendor bashing isn't too friendly, either. :P C'mon, man. Be fair. Lots of vendors create great products and are responsive to their customers' reasonable feedback. They may not always make what you want exactly how you want it, but then that's true of every industry. Painting every vendor with the same broad brush is unreasonable. It's this soft of hyperbolic language, I think, that upsets people.

Edit: I don't personally know many vendors. But I have spoken to a few from time to time, and the impression I get is that most work very hard to create the best products they can, especially given the enormous time constraints they experience. They are overjoyed when someone likes their work, and are devastated when people don't. And frankly for what we pay them, and the ease with which customers can dismiss MONTHS of their work over something trivial -- all but the outright fraudulent ones deserve a lot more appreciation.

Thank-you for pointing this out (not many do) and I agree... Vendors should get way more appreciation than they do. The Figure and Vendor bashing... and program bashing.. have gotten way way out of hand and really needs to stop... it doesn't do anything or accomplish anything but to drive people out of the community and destroy peoples joy in their work. There's no good reason or need for it.

Vendors are going to do what they think is necessary to maximize their customer base. If they only made products that were compatible with Poser 9+, in terms of file naming, formats, etc., they would be eliminating about 70% or more of their customer base. Those are not realistic expectations for vendors to meet, especially at the prices most content sells for in the Poser market. They have to make what the majority of people are going to buy, and name their files based on what the majority of people are used to. There's nothing wrong with "vanity" folders - it helps keep a specific vendor's products organized in one place, and only a handful of people seem to have a problem with it. How is a vendor supposed to know what other vendors are naming their products? Without vanity folders, it's extremely likely that a new product will overwrite an existing product with the same name, and then you'll really have people complaining. 

     I'll second Shane on the overwrite prevention benefit of "vanity" folders.

     He's also right regarding vendors avoiding use of features which would prevent a lot of Poserians from using it.  Since I have no concern for sales, I'm free to go hog wild with exploiting new features, so that folks can play with those features.  It kind of fills an economically unviable niche.  Hmmm...  spellcheck doesn't like "unviable".

Thank-you for pointing this out (not many do) and I agree... Vendors should get way more appreciation than they do. The Figure and Vendor bashing... and program bashing.. have gotten way way out of hand and really needs to stop... it doesn't do anything or accomplish anything but to drive people out of the community and destroy peoples joy in their work. There's no good reason or need for it.

I show my appreciation with my money - which is the most important way to show it.  What some people around here call "bashing" is what other people call "constructive criticism".  Mediocre vendors are driving me (and more importantly, my money) to other storefronts. 

Positive feedback loops are never a good thing.

I started this hobby in 2006, and have barely scratched the surface of what's possible with either DS or Poser.  And I know nothing about modeling.

As someone who still considers themselves a relative newbie, I find myself increasingly frustrated with the ongoing debates over the quality and support for new figure meshes.  The more I read, the more I regret having gotten into this hobby in the first place.  I keep wondering why I even bother trying to learn new skills when there's no guarantee the content I want to use will be supported.

I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I also understand Dawn was supposed to be the ideal replacement for V4.  Again, more experienced users concluded she was all hype, and she's received minimal support from content creators.

I feel stuck in the middle of a tug of war between my desire to use new tech, and a community who says the new tech sucks.  Meanwhile, vendors continue creating content for V4.

Last October, I built a new PC with parts specifically chosen for the primary task of rendering 3D art.  Is there any point in my continuing to use it for that purpose, or has the divide between the tech and community support widened too much to bother anymore?  I have much more enjoyable interests to spend my free time on that don't give me headaches.

I love Victoria 3 and Michael 3. I never cared for V4 or later stuff. Anyway, it all depends on the kind of art you're wanting/trying to do.

Constructive criticism isn't telling someone to go educate themselves or calling them names in a WIP thread when the OP is trying to create something new or is trying a new idea or method. It isn't constructive, it doesn't help with the creative process in any way... what it does do is run people down for no good reason and for no purpose. Telling someone their item/figure/image is garbage/looks like c**** isn't helpfull... Telling someone to do things a specific way and only that way and insulting them or putting them down when they won't isn't helpfull... Making unreasonable demands and ranting when no-one will give in to them is not helpfull... There is nothing "constructive" about it

Constructive Criticism shows both good and bad points and provides suggestions on various things that could be done... it allows for room for more than one preference or opinion and also allows the person that asked for the critique to have his preferences as well. Constructive Criticism also is respectful of the idea/effort the person is making and is not simply a list of demands or instructions saying they must or they have to... but most importantly it is helpful and constructive and it acknowledges the good parts of the work as well as the bad...

There is a vast difference between constructive criticism and bashing... and much of what happens these days in many forums is bashing plain and simple... to try and claim it's anything else is ridiculous!

^We need a like button for this post.

 There's nothing wrong with "vanity" folders - it helps keep a specific vendor's products organized in one place, and only a handful of people seem to have a problem with it. How is a vendor supposed to know what other vendors are naming their products? Without vanity folders, it's extremely likely that a new product will overwrite an existing product with the same name, and then you'll really have people complaining. 

Your argument boils down to:

"Everyone needs to keep training wheels on their bikes because a couple of kids don't want to take them off."

Any time someone brings up runtime organization, those of us who would like a bit of rationality are shouted down by the All Hail the Poser 4 workflow crowd AKA the Luddites.  As the customer, I don't care who the vendor is that made a product.  The only place I should see an ego folder is in the Geometries folder or the Texture folder.  If a vendor puts an ego folder anywhere else, it slows down the use of the product.

As far as naming a product - apparently vendors aren't smart enough to name their product .  Ego folder goes away, identical naming issue goes away, and the vendor can still stroke their ego by having their name in the product without hiding the product.  OTOH, these are the same folks that name their material pose files MAT_foo1,  MAT_foo2, (which renders the Poser search function useless.)  God forbid a vendor do something to make their product easy to find.

If you don't have a lot of content, then an ego folder isn't an issue - those of us who spend way too much money here have 1st world problems (i.e. 500+Gbs of runtime content).  I wrote this in 2013 when talking about ego folders - it still applies today.....

Allow me to show you what I, as the customer, have to deal with every single time I fire up Poser........

I decide to make a render.  Load Figure (it can be any figure).  Figure needs an outfit.  Go to the character folder to add conforming clothing - Am I looking at clothing?  No, I am looking at 100+ vendor names (aka ego folders).  Now I have to open EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM until I find that dress I am looking for.  If I am lucky it is just 1 ego folder, if I am not, I have to drill down yet another level - for every single vendor - and yes, I have a number of products that have ego subfolders inside of ego folders.

 Ok, now do I like the default material?  If I don't, I need to change it.  Now the real fun begins.

Did the vendor follow Poser standards and make .mc6 files and put them in the Materials folder?

If yes, then I go to the material room - I am once again confronted by 100+ vendor names. No problem, after all I know the vendor name from rooting around in the character folder, right?

No.  Because I tend to buy a 3rd party add-on pack to stretch the value of the clothing item.  Now I have to root around in 100+ vendor names individually, until I find what I am looking for.  And yes, I do have to open every single one of them, because most vendors that make add on packs are not smart enough to name their products <add-on pack> for . And then there are the vendors that use differing folder names between character and material and/or pose folder.

 If the vendor continues to use .pz2 materials (a hack for Poser 4), I have to do the exact same thing in the Pose folder.

 If I am not for sure, guess what?  I have to do it in BOTH folders, because vendors can't follow the established, 8+ year standard.

 Rinse & repeat for EVERY SINGLE ITEM IN THE SCENE.

Please explain what is so damned hard to understand about having MATERIALS in the MATERIALS folder and POSES in the POSE folder.

With the exception of the .mc6 issue, everything I talked about earlier applies from at least Poser 5 forward. 

It's 2014, let Poser 6 go already.

Thank-you for proving my point Ssgbryan... making statements like "apparently vendors aren't smart enough to name their product.." is a perfect example of bashing rather than being constructive... it is also a great illustration of making demands based on your "opinion" on the way things should be at this point and then running vendors down for not meeting up with your demands... despite other posts which have pointed out different views than yours in the matter...

I noticed earlier that you'd also said that "vendors never want to hear anything except how great they are..." I have to say perhaps you'd have better luck getting vendors to listen to your comments if you asked rather than demanded and insulted them. I know and am friends with a number of vendors and I know for a fact that none of them would refuse a reasonable request for a feature in a product when it was presented to them politely and as a request... but I can also say with absolute certainty that when people send demands and are rude or insulting most will simply toss the email in the trash and ignore it... (see my previous post regarding constructive criticism)

Ssgbryan - You are probably fighting a battle that you cannot win. It is almost like a clash of right brain logic against left brain logic. You have vented, but you are likely destined to continue performing your own reorganization.  If you concede this, why not take it one step further ? As long as you are text editing a product:

PP2014 allows any Library file to load from any Library category.

Most products have a 1:1 relationship of OBJ:cr2/pp2/hr2    PNG:product  pz2/mc6/mt5:product   PMD:product   INJ.pz2:product

Make a unique Libraries folder for each product.  In it = cr2/pp2/hr2 , PMD , OBJ , readme

Make a subfolder for Material poses (because there are usually so many).

Make a subfolder for Textures.   If there are Material poses, make the Textures folder a subfolder of the Material poses folder.

Use relative paths. 

For the OBJ,  the path =  ":NAME.obj"  

For the PMD =  ":NAME.pmd"  

For textures  =  ":Mats:Tex:NAME.png"  for the cr2 etc  and  Material poses =  ":Tex:NAME.png"

I found that relative paths go down stream just fine, but do not like going parallel, which is why Tex should be under Mats and not beside it.

Doing this makes the product very portable.  The Geometries folder is very lean.  The Textures folders is very lean. 

     Some caution would be wise here.  The relationship of OBJ to cr2/pp2 and mt5/mc6 is not 1:1 with stuff that I make. 

     A given item may have multiple mt5/mc6 files to offer variety.  Roxie's skate boots have two cr2 versions (leafy green & yellow, White & pink);  both use the same OBJs.  My old pixie dress for several dolls had several OBJs (one for each doll), and 8-10 material files to change color/fabric, but any mc6 worked for any cr2/OBJ, so that you could apply any material to any dress.

     I have a pack of textures for Thorne's Universal Wings;  there's maybe a dozen cr2s, and they all call Thorne's OBJ.

     I also re-use texturing images (generally, asymmetrical seamless tiles) for multiple projects.

     I don't think I'm the only one who does this.

A totally dedicated folder is not appropriate for all products. It requires judgement.  The OOT Hairblending products all use common textures, so not keeping these textures in Textures is not appropriate for this method.  For OBJ and textures that are used by multiple figures, the traditional method using Geometries and Textures is better.

On the other hand, Roxie skate boots - both cr2 can live in the same folder with their OBJ.  And, Roxie herself - unlike Dawn or V4, her OBJ already is in her Libraries folder.

Having in Materials mt5/mc6 that are useful for multiple figures or props is appropriate.  Not having these buried under a bunch of poses that are only for individual products  - they are easier to find.  

For hair,  all can be in Hair even if they are cr2 or pp2.  2nd party hair texture add-ons and their poses are easier to find and use if they are in the folder with their hair product.  Those with prop extras - the props can be in the folder with the hair they come with.  If it is something that you want to use for other things, then keep them in Props. 

If you collect characters, they are easier to manage with one folder per character with the textures, Mat poses, and morphs.  In my case, I spawn a single head morph and single body morph for each character and keep them in the folder.  Once done, the !Ego folders with morphs can be deleted (just keep the original zip somewhere, just in case).

 Earl? If you want, you can send the boots over, I"ll have a look at them. You have my e-mail.
Have a nice day all.

I appreciate the offer Tony, but I think I may have figured this one out after all. It's just a matter of what to do about it and how.

Ssgbryan - You are probably fighting a battle that you cannot win. It is almost like a clash of right brain logic against left brain logic. You have vented, but you are likely destined to continue performing your own reorganization.  If you concede this, why not take it one step further ? As long as you are text editing a product:

PP2014 allows any Library file to load from any Library category.

Most products have a 1:1 relationship of OBJ:cr2/pp2/hr2    PNG:product  pz2/mc6/mt5:product   PMD:product   INJ.pz2:product

Make a unique Libraries folder for each product.  In it = cr2/pp2/hr2 , PMD , OBJ , readme

Make a subfolder for Material poses (because there are usually so many).

Make a subfolder for Textures.   If there are Material poses, make the Textures folder a subfolder of the Material poses folder.

Use relative paths. 

For the OBJ,  the path =  ":NAME.obj"  

For the PMD =  ":NAME.pmd"  

For textures  =  ":Mats:Tex:NAME.png"  for the cr2 etc  and  Material poses =  ":Tex:NAME.png"

I found that relative paths go down stream just fine, but do not like going parallel, which is why Tex should be under Mats and not beside it.

Doing this makes the product very portable.  The Geometries folder is very lean.  The Textures folders is very lean. 

Portability isn't an issue - ease of use is.  I could do all of that extra work for materials - or I could simply fire up Batch Material Converter by Netherworks and convert  60+Gb worth of material .pz2s to .mc6s and move them to the materials folder automatically in about 90 seconds.  That is the easy part and it is what I do with my legacy content. 

The hard part is going through and renaming the names from Mat_Foo01,  Mat_Foo02, etc to something that the Poser search function can pick up.  Or the joy of renaming materials from 01 Foo01, 02 Foo02, to Blue Foo01, Red Foo02 etc.  Or the fun in reworking over 100 .png files because the vendor decided to be "creative" by giving me a .png for 30 or 40 items that don't actually show the product - so I have to actually click on each one to see what the product either is or what it looks like and then spend an hour or so making useful thumbnails as opposed to "creative" ones.

The ability to put any product in any folder is not a new feature to 2014 - it has been available for a while (not that anyone noticed).  I am not talking about text editing. The only time I do that is when dealing with the hard-coded locations in files in the unique subfolders (such as !DAZ) so they can go in the morphs subfolder that vendors are moving to. 

What I am talking about is using Poser 9+ conventions on Poser 9+ products and product usability from the customer's perspective, which ties into lack of attention to detail.

Another example - SM added a scene folder to the visible Poser runtime structure.  Vendors are putting .pz3 files in them (Yay, vendors are actually using a Post-Poser 7 feature!)  But many of them don't put a .png with it - the customer has to load the damned thing to see what it looks like because the vendor couldn't be bothered to add a .png file with it.  And somehow, something as simple as that got through QA.  Vendors (and storefronts) don't appear to look at their products from the perspective of the customer.

Which, believe it or not, affects sales - Is the customer willing to spend $15 dollars on an item if they know, based on past experience with the vendor, that they are going to spend anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple of hours to address issues the vendor and/or storefront should have addressed before the product was added to the marketplace.  For me, the answer is no.  The product has to be at least 50% off, if I know I am going to spend anywhere from 30 minutes to a couple hours to make it Poser 9+ compliant.  (In V4's case, it can't be more than $5.00 - sorry vendors, but that is what happens in a saturated market - what makes your hookerware better than all of the other hookerware out there for V4.)  Whereas, I will happily pay (and have paid & will pay again) $15-30 for a Poser 9+ product that is actually set up for Poser 9+.

I am also frustrated because almost all of the content being made in 2014 is not actually any better than the content that was made in 2004.  Which also affects buying decisions.  Why should I pay $15 for an item that isn't any better than an item made in 2004?

The "Vintage" thingie 'Rosity just implemented has really driven that home.  The biggest difference between a product made in 2004 and a product made in 2014 appears to be the increase in texture size.  It certainly isn't the products themselves.

Ssgbryan... honestly if you are that dissatisfied with the many 1000's of products available from the many 1000's of vendors out there in the 3D/Poser/Daz community, and if you honestly believe that you can do a better job then I most heartily invite you to become a vendor... do a better job of it than the rest of us and prove us all wrong. Be my guest and go for it!

In the mean-time if you already are a vendor you should know better than to run other vendors down, and if you aren't then you really are not in a position to dictate what a vendor must and must not do. You've posted these rants many times in many different threads and have gotten answers from both vendors and other customers/product users repeatedly that show that not all users agree with you. Contrary to your opinion we vendors do talk regularly with our customers, we get feed back and criticism, and we do make changes and additions to products where and when it's reasonable to do so. What is not possible is to meet every single demand every single user makes based on how they prefer to have files set up, arranged and organized, or to have specific features added, based on the personal preferences of each customer. Every single user has a different way they would like things to be arranged and different things they'd like to have included and it would be completely impossible to meet those requirements in a general release product. Vendors would be better off doing custom projects for each individual user in that case and believe me you wouldn't be paying no 15$ for a product at that point... A vendor could spend his entire lifetime working on a single product if we had to do specific file structures and features for every possible variation of that item a customer would like to see and it's just simply not reasonable to expect a vendor to do so.

And before you say it... no... what you are doing is not "constructive criticism" so lets not even go there... you've already had a reply on that....

** HOLD on to YOUR hat, this is gonna STINK.**

The vendors :
Years ago, many years ago, I bought 3 Products. They where Soooooo bad, that I swore to never-ever buy anything again.

a) Was Loretta, WHAW, how can someone invent such a mess.............

b) Little One. the nicest head of the whole Poser universe, but Oh dear Lord in Heaven, how can any twisted brain come with a body like that?????????

c) Was a male figure, that I deleted after less then 55 seconds. It did not even last a single minute on my HD.

So far for the vendors.

The companies  :

SM, this is the Poser forum, so let us start with SM.

• Some object files are not symmetericval, Sydney and Alyson2 are the worst of the lot.
  - All native poser figures have magnets that are way , - and I repeat - WAYout of symmetry.
  As a content creator the wanna-be vendor that wants to build for them, never knows what is gonna happen left-right with his/her outfit.
• Dependencies, another bad luck moment in the symmetry department.

The main issue with SM figures, are object file symmetry, magnet symmetry, and denpendencies symmetries.. This combined with some odd rigging choices, and one understands why they are not popular at all.

DAZ split with Poser compatibility with the Genesis1 series. i was not in the least intersted, so let them go. Bey-bey.
But, after a year and lots od discussions, I loaded my first Genesis1 female in Poser.

MORE THEN A YEAR after release, ME, MYSELF and I, had to discover the talking toes and fingertips in the Genesis 1 Series of figures.
What about the creators? What about the beta-test team? What about the BIG mouths woh wanted to "FORCE FEED" Genesis throught he Poser end users community??

End of the Genesis1 Story.

The whole end user base SCREAMS for full Poser compatibility. What does DAZ do?
Right, they come with Genesis2. How STUPID and self distructing can a company be??

Then comes Hivewire out of nowhere.
Hivewire? Who or what is that?
They create a 2 month long hype with a "new Poser and DS" compatible figure.

At release date they come with a mesh technology that dates from between V3 and V4, build in DS for DS and then "half" converted to get it "half working in Poser.
And with a super oversaturated texture to bend bike steering wheel handles over.

And then someone is not satisfied over figure bashing??????

And then someone says, And

IS this over-reacting?
When on average there are 42 symmetry magnets errors in ALL of the SM figures?

When an obvious error like talking toes and fingertips are only accidently discovered by an end user a WHOLE YEAR after release?

When a "new" figure is clearly more then 10 year old technology?

Are we, end Users, Over reacting???

And YES, this post was meant to be HARD on some.

When on average there arte

Please note in my previous posts I'm speaking of individual vendors and content creators... some company issues are a completely different kettle of fish and we've all had issues with some of the choices they make. Also please note that as a customer I do in fact agree with some points made in regards to content and have said so in response to other posts in other threads. As a customer I've never met a content creator that was completely unwilling to answer a question or consider a request so long as it was politely worded and respectfully approached, and that includes myself as a vendor... when customers have approached me with requests or issues I've been only too happy to consider what they've asked and make changes where I was able and where it was reasonable to do so...

Honestly, speaking strictly as a forum user and setting everything else aside, I think it's frankly disgusting that anyone would come into a thread, in which the topic is that bashing of any sort is leading a person to want to leave the community and his/her hobby, and then using it as an excuse to jump on a soapbox (to bash vendors, companies or anything else for that matter). All it does is confirm for the OP that bashing is alive and well, and that his/her wanting to leave is justified... it just serves to further drive them out to no-ones gain...

To the OP... I am very sorry that you feel as you do and that the figure bashing is influencing your enjoyment of your hobby... I would add my voice to others in that what matters most is that you yourself are happy with your art and time. What programs, figures and items you use is entirely up to you and the opinions of others shouldn't be allowed to ruin your own joy.

Honestly it takes me 2 min to re-organize the files if they are not to my satisfaction, EG remove vendor names, match pose, materials folder name with character etc. Will that stop me from buying a product that I want or find useful? Probably not. With regards to bashing, users are just frustrated that figures come out and don't deliver what they promised, or contain issues that could have been avoided if only they actually tested the thing properly before setting it live. And, well, some are just plain ugly and sub-par by todays standards....

 Earl? If you want, you can send the boots over, I"ll have a look at them. You have my e-mail.
Have a nice day all.

I appreciate the offer Tony, but I think I may have figured this one out after all. It's just a matter of what to do about it and how.

Well, I fixed the boots. Now I'm having other problems. Think I need to start my own thread on this one.

I purchased my first vendor item in 2000 and I dread to think of the money I have spent on vendor items in the fourteen years since then.  There are I couple of vendors I have purchased from only once but that is small fry compared with the vendors I go back to time and time again.  I must have almost a full catalogue from some venders, 3-d-c, Fabiana, Ironman13, Mihrelle, and Fugazi 1968 all fall in to that category.  Out of those I only had one product that had an issue and, that was a compatibility issue with another script I used in Poser, it was sorted in 48 hours in a very helpful manner.  Other venders such as Marforno and Danie, Exnem and the Toyman all produce products that regularly fall into my cart.  All of my purchases from these and others are used on a regular basis not just sat in a runtime waiting to be used.   I do sometimes play with the textures, not because those supplied are bad but to add a touch of conformity to my renders.

If I dread the thought of how much I paid for all this then the thought of the hours spent creating this stuff is even more terrifying.  For the money they make on each individual sale I think vendors should be applauded not criticised.  I cannot put a percentage on it but the vast majority of the items in my runtime have worked out of the box and to my satisfaction and have done so for 14 years.  I wonder how many other industries can match that.

I purchased my first vendor item in 2000 and I dread to think of the money I have spent on vendor items in the fourteen years since then.  There are I couple of vendors I have purchased from only once but that is small fry compared with the vendors I go back to time and time again.  I must have almost a full catalogue from some venders, 3-d-c, Fabiana, Ironman13, Mihrelle, and Fugazi 1968 all fall in to that category.  Out of those I only had one product that had an issue and, that was a compatibility issue with another script I used in Poser, it was sorted in 48 hours in a very helpful manner.  Other venders such as Marforno and Danie, Exnem and the Toyman all produce products that regularly fall into my cart.  All of my purchases from these and others are used on a regular basis not just sat in a runtime waiting to be used.   I do sometimes play with the textures, not because those supplied are bad but to add a touch of conformity to my renders.

If I dread the thought of how much I paid for all this then the thought of the hours spent creating this stuff is even more terrifying.  For the money they make on each individual sale I think vendors should be applauded not criticised.  I cannot put a percentage on it but the vast majority of the items in my runtime have worked out of the box and to my satisfaction and have done so for 14 years.  I wonder how many other industries can match that.

You don't want to total up what you have spent.  Trust me on this one.  I stopped counted once I crossed the $10,000 barrier a number of years back.  I just look at it as a better investment than spending it down at the local "gentleman's"  clubs....

 

You don't want to total up what you have spent.  Trust me on this one.  I stopped counted once I crossed the $10,000 barrier a number of years back.  I just look at it as a better investment than spending it down at the local "gentleman's"  clubs....
Glad I am not alone and your right, if you take the amount I spent and divided it by the number of weeks in the last fourteen years it is probably below the cost of a night on the town.  Not only that I still have the content that I can use today. 

I understand V4 is ancient tech.  From my perspective, on the surface, Genesis looks like a viable alternative, but everything I've read by more experienced users and content creators has said it's worse than V4.  Understanding why has been like trying to read Greek.

I may be able to help you out here...

While I no longer use Poser, I do have one bright spot that I discovered in all of this (oddly enough, with D|S). I held out against using Genesis, mostly because I had a mountain of V4 stuff. Then, they came out with V4 for Genesis... it was like seeing your girlfriend's boobs for the first time. All of the V4 stuff I owned just fit - and no need to push and pull to get it to fit anymore - it just did, even on custom G2F meshes. ...at least in my case, that was the perfect solution. 

Now for Poser? I don't know if Poser has anything similar, but you can at least use D|S to get the G2F figure fleshed-out and clothed, then export to Poser to do what you will after that.

While I no longer use Poser, I do have one bright spot that I discovered in all of this (oddly enough, with D|S). I held out against using Genesis, mostly because I had a mountain of V4 stuff. Then, they came out with V4 for Genesis... it was like seeing your girlfriend's boobs for the first time. All of the V4 stuff I owned just fit - and no need to push and pull to get it to fit anymore - it just did, even on custom G2F meshes. ...at least in my case, that was the perfect solution. 

Now for Poser? I don't know if Poser has anything similar, but you can at least use D|S to get the G2F figure fleshed-out and clothed, then export to Poser to do what you will after that.

Not trying to bash D/S here, but this is where the whole workflow argument falls apart for me. My goal is to reduce my workflow, not increase it. So adding another software in the mix just goes against the grain for me. I'd rather just use V4 or V4WM. I get to use all my V4 stuff and my favorite software and I don't have to jump through 24 other hoops to do it.

Now for Poser? I don't know if Poser has anything similar, but you can at least use D|S to get the G2F figure fleshed-out and clothed, then export to Poser to do what you will after that.

Poser does - copy morphs from.  What is truly great about it is that you no longer need to have ANY character morphs in the clothing.  You can load a figure, apply a character, turn that dial-spin into a single FBM (via dials to single morph) then use copy morphs from to inject the resulting FBM into the clothing.  Viola!  Even better, once you do that, you can go and delete all of those now unneeded morphs to make a smaller figure.  I am able to take a fully loaded V4 (292MB figure) and reduce it to 22MB.  Not important if one is doing NVIATWAS renders, but for storyboarding multiple figures in a scene, it is almost mandatory.

Poser does - copy morphs from.  What is truly great about it is that you no longer need to have ANY character morphs in the clothing.  You can load a figure, apply a character, turn that dial-spin into a single FBM (via dials to single morph) then use copy morphs from to inject the resulting FBM into the clothing.  Viola!  Even better, once you do that, you can go and delete all of those now unneeded morphs to make a smaller figure.  I am able to take a fully loaded V4 (292MB figure) and reduce it to 22MB.  Not important if one is doing NVIATWAS renders, but for storyboarding multiple figures in a scene, it is almost mandatory.

Good to hear! It's one of those features that is pure money in my book... 

Can you take V4 clothes and put them on a different figure as well? I love the ability to take my existing shedload of V4 stuff and put them on a more capable figure w/o a hitch.

Not trying to bash D/S here, but this is where the whole workflow argument falls apart for me. My goal is to reduce my workflow, not increase it.

 I can grok that... it works in my case because I never leave D|S (except to maybe LuxRender or suchlike.)  On the Poser side of things, you might be able to get away with only exporting the character once, then importing that export into Poser, then trying to get the V4 clothing on it in Poser (not really sure if that would work though - if not, you can fit the V4 clothing in D|S initially, then export the clothing as a .cr2?) Either way, you only have to do it once, in the beginning. You can then save the results for later use w/o leaving Poser.

PS: Why does the new forum software get all wonky when it comes to quoting? Ugh.

Addendum: Notify seems to be broke as well...

Can you take V4 clothes and put them on a different figure as well? I love the ability to take my existing shedload of V4 stuff and put them on a more capable figure w/o a hitch.

Yes, by user Poser's new Fitting Room feature.

Poser does - copy morphs from.  What is truly great about it is that you no longer need to have ANY character morphs in the clothing.  You can load a figure, apply a character, turn that dial-spin into a single FBM (via dials to single morph) then use copy morphs from to inject the resulting FBM into the clothing.  Viola!  Even better, once you do that, you can go and delete all of those now unneeded morphs to make a smaller figure.  I am able to take a fully loaded V4 (292MB figure) and reduce it to 22MB.  Not important if one is doing NVIATWAS renders, but for storyboarding multiple figures in a scene, it is almost mandatory.

Good to hear! It's one of those features that is pure money in my book... 

Can you take V4 clothes and put them on a different figure as well? I love the ability to take my existing shedload of V4 stuff and put them on a more capable figure w/o a hitch.

Multiple ways of doing that.  Wardrobe Wizard has been around since the Poser 6 days - was integrated into Poser 8.  Xdresser is a 3rd party app that has been around for a few years.  The latest version of Poser Pro comes with the Fitting Room.  I can take a V4 outfit & slap it on Dawn in about 30 seconds (when using Lyrra's most excellent - Fitting room magnets for Dawn), other figures take between 90 seconds and 5 minutes (if adjustments are needed).  Not 100% perfect, but this is version 1.0 for the new room.  I expect better things in the next version, next summer. The GameDev version of Poser adds even more power with Combine figures which allows me to take a figure & clothing and reduce it to 1 figure.  Reduce Polygons allows me to make the figure even lighter.  Want the latest weightmapping tech in your legacy figures? - Merge all zones to weight maps automagically does most of the tedious work for you, allowing you to concentrate on just adjusting JCMs.  It doesn't do all of the work, what is left to do isn't all that hard, just attention to detail stuff.  Then of course there is the ability to subdivide - you can also apply this to legacy figures.  See Attached image - That is the LoRes Poser 2 female figure (Left - subdivision 0 Right - subdivision 3).

Don't need to go out & spend hundreds of dollars on new figures (and content), when you can simply upgrade the figures you currently have.  Numerous legacy figures have already been weight mapped to include V4, V3, D3, Terai Yuki, Antonia, Michelle, Kez, & Koz.  As far as newer figures, we have Dawn & Dusk (from the creator of the original Victoria & Michael), Ryan2, Alyson2, Miki 4, Rex, & Roxie.

Lots of capabilities in Poser, one just has to read the documentation & use it.....

Well, apparently, the new & unimproved forum will not allow me to post an image - what a POS.

Lots of posts in here I'd like to "like" or "+1" or "thumbs-up". :)

On vendors:

Recently, I noticed that a vendor whose stuff I really like got a 1 star review because he provides his models in obj format so they can be easily used in any app that supports obj. The product review noted that the models were great, but it was too much of a pain to get them to "work" in Poser or DS.

I like this vendor because he makes extremely detailed models, (ie: a farm with ploughed land, houses, a barn, animals, buckets, barrels, food troughs, feedbags, etc) with great texture maps (even specular maps that AREN'T merely a greyscale version of the diffuse map). And he sells these models for $10. Yes, they are in obj format. Yes, all the materials have to be tweaked after import because the maps don't plug in correctly. Yes, he uses generic map names like roof.jpg, so you often have to rename them all to avoid texture crosstalk if you load more than one of his models in a scene). Yes, on one, out of 15 of his products I've purchased, there are a couple of missing polys after import. Yes, you have to scale the items after import. Yes, frequently the models are one welded prop, so if you want doors to open or separate props, you have spawn them yourself with the grouping tool. Yes, to all that -- BUT I would much rather spend the ten or twenty minutes fixing these things than paying an extra $20 to have him do it for me. $40 an hour isn't terrible pay for my time, so I feel I'm getting a good deal, especially considering the fact that it would take me a couple of YEARS to make any one of his products myself.

In any case, I (and another customer) followed the 1 star review with our own, making the point that the vendor DID NOT mislead anyone into thinking that the models came in a Poser ready format. And that it wasn't rocket science to get them to work very well. We also gave our opinions about the quality of his work. And the five stars he deserved. (I'd have given six if I could). He sent me a PM that was very gracious and thankful. Why? Because you don't make much money as a vendor. Very few people LIVE on the proceeds. You do it because you enjoy it, because you like sharing your work, and sell it because this is an expensive hobby and you need to make SOME of that money back if you can. To be told that your work is rotten because it doesn't conform to someone else's extremely restrictive workflow is simply cruel -- and it will destroy your desire to continue.

Poser vendors are individuals with feelings. They are not giant corporations with a publicity department. To take the sort of entitled mindset that you have as a customer of a corporation with an individual human being is to grant yourself far more importance than you really have. I'll explain:

I used to run a liquor store in Texas, and at some point, my mother bought it, so I worked, essentially for her. Previously, I had to put up with a whole lot of abuse from customers over issues ranging from prices to selling to them when they were drunk to asking them for an ID. As soon as the store was no longer under the control of a corporation (albeit a very small one), those customers no longer had any hold over me, and I took great pleasure in telling the worst of them that my self respect was worth more than their $10 a week, so they could go shove their money where the sun don't shine.

And frankly, were I a Poser vendor, and I heard some of the criticisms of work that I've heard on these forums, that's exactly what I'd say. Yes, you can expect anything you want for your measly $10. And, yes, I -- as an individual -- can tell you to shove your expectations... where the sun don't shine.

And ssgbryan, some of your criticisms are valid. But you're beating your head against the wrong wall.

Here's my unasked for advice: Click the icon next to your sitemail icon that tells you how to become a vendor at Renderosity. Read the list of CURRENT requirements for Poser ready products. If you think that something needs to be added to this, take it up with Renderosity's admins. They're the ones who can make the changes you desire, IF they decide they are needed. If they decide that they're not needed, then please accept that you're just out of luck because obviously there aren't enough other customers with your peculiar needs or desires.

 @Moriador

There are times when your posts are a breath of fresh air in an other wise dank atmosphere, to be able to realise there is an individual behind the name posted anywhere on the Internet is rare.  To defend someone who has had a rough deal is something few people do. 

If only more people would look at what they are saying before they post it, not only here but on the Internet in general, it would be a much better experience.

 @Moriador

There are times when your posts are a breath of fresh air in an other wise dank atmosphere, to be able to realise there is an individual behind the name posted anywhere on the Internet is rare.  To defend someone who has had a rough deal is something few people do. 

If only more people would look at what they are saying before they post it, not only here but on the Internet in general, it would be a much better experience.

Aww shucks. Thank you. (FTR, I feel the same about your posts. I wish we had a way to "like" or rate posts. You'd get a like every time from me, I think. And not just when you're saying nice things about me.:D ) I'm as guilty as most, when it comes to bad internet behavior. But I do try to make up for past (and current) mistakes. Getting a PM from someone does remind you that they are a human being. I've also spoken via Skype to a lot of people I've "met" online. It's amazing how some give a very different impression when they're no longer using the keyboard to communicate. I like to think I'm good with the English language, but I've had so many of my comments misinterpreted in so many different places that I have to concede I'm very frequently not nearly as clear as I need to be. And if I'm not very clear -- or my mood or tone isn't obvious --, surely everyone else labors under the same burden.

I also sometimes forget all that. :| 

Due to the total lack of body language and expression it is very easy to be misinterpreted and even easier if the reader is does not have English as their first language.  I always like to try and keep that in mind when reading but I am not always successful.  There are however some things written to individuals on the Internet which are either written without any thought of the persons feelings or in some cases explicitly to cause harm, offence or both.   Even here I suppose that we have to be careful because there is no reason why someone who is suffering a mental illness (that might explain the writing) should be banned from the internet.  However, even with this thought in mind, there seems to be a rather large number of people who want to upset, belittle or impose their views on others, which is a shame.

I don't think any vendor here goes out of their way to produce a bad product, some might be looking for a price not realistic in this market, although it may be fair when compared with the effort put in.  I have a runtime full of fantastic stuff thanks to a lot of vendors for which I am thankful but the one aspect the Internet does have in common with other communication methods and that is it is easy to criticise and condemn.  Not that I don't criticise, I do, but I try to make it constructive and keep in mind that if I criticise I should also be even handed and praise people/vendors also.

I agree, hornet.

When I first started to collect content, I looked at Daz, for example, as being like Smith Micro (or actually, I think it was eFrontier back then) -- a reasonably large corporation, and I felt no compunction about offering my criticisms. I've since then learned that things aren't quite the way I imagined them. These days -- since I don't know how to model -- I see vendors as absolutely essential partners in my projects. I pay them and they make things I need. We both benefit. It doesn't make sense to treat them badly, even when they occasionally make errors -- because if anyone is replaceable in this partnership, it's me, the customer.

Apparently, according to the latest psychological research, if you give a review (of anything -- a book, movie, whatever), people will rate you as more intelligent if you are negative and critical. And they will rate you as warmer and more personable, if you are positive and encouraging. The reverse is also true. When you ask people to write a review that will make people think they are more intelligent, they will tend to write a negative/critical review. Same with the other. So I'm thinking that people who are, for whatever reason, feeling a bit insecure about their intellect (maybe their boss called them stupid or something), they may be more inclined to be negative and critical that day. Of course, if the person being criticized then feels insecure, they may do the same. And we end up with a tidal wave of negativity, making everyone feel stupid (because everyone else looks smarter) -- and very unhappy -- while desperately trying to prove that they're neither stupid nor unhappy by making critical and negative comments.

Did I just describe the internet? :D

As for mental illnesses -- lots of different flavors. But since it's estimated that, at any given time, 1 in 10 people is suffering from something serious enough that it that should probably treated, (and 1 in 3 will suffer such an illness in their lifetimes, not counting age related dementias which will also affect a large number of us eventually) no point in being discriminatory at all. I think the best you can do is recognize that, with just a few exceptions, people almost always prefer to do the good, nice, or right thing, but sometimes find it too challenging -- so don't sweat the small stuff, like someone's random insult or their tone when disagreeing. Worry about their threats of violence or their doxing or their damaging criminal behavior. Doesn't mean you have to like a person who behaves like a jerk. But no point in getting your blood pressure up over it. Easier said that done, of course. But it's how I try to live these days. (And there are some very good medications that help with that -- if a person should need them, and if they are lucky enough to find one that works. :D)

And ssgbryan, some of your criticisms are valid. But you're beating your head against the wrong wall.

Here's my unasked for advice: Click the icon next to your sitemail icon that tells you how to become a vendor at Renderosity. Read the list of CURRENT requirements for Poser ready products. If you think that something needs to be added to this, take it up with Renderosity's admins. They're the ones who can make the changes you desire, IF they decide they are needed. If they decide that they're not needed, then please accept that you're just out of luck because obviously there aren't enough other customers with your peculiar needs or desires.

Wanting Poser 9 conventions for Poser 9 products is "peculiar"?

Ok...........

This kind of thinking is precisely why content today isn't any better than it was a decade ago. And why a lot of people here  would be content with Poser Debut.

If everyone kept their mouths shut, as you advise, we would never get better products.  How long did it take to get vendors to adjust Gamma after SM made their changes to Poser?  We are still at it 4 years later.  Vendors only change if they are pushed.  And I am pushing for better products, not endless variations of the same stuff I already have.

As far as the vendors feelings - I got it.  They are as fragile as a soccer player in the penalty box.

The problem is not that vendors need to be pushed, but customers who are quite happy using older versions of Poser. They limit the overall progression and compatibility of products. Most vendors cannot afford to alienate the older users, who are still the majority and who still bring in the most sales. Also, most customers are happy with the "level" and type of content. If they weren't, they wouldn't buy, and vendors wouldn't make them.

If you mean to indicate that most are on Poser 6, 7, etc. I don't feel that's remotely true. Feel, is the key.  I don't really know and it's hard to determine without a large sample size that isn't site specific - because dynamics do change per site.  My best guess is that most are using Poser 9 or higher.  That's also considering you can get one version back, even Pro 2012 for pennies, comparatively to the full price of PP 2014, throughout the year and surprisingly often.

Moriador,

I agree with part of what you wrote, but one thing stands a bit off to one side - yes, vendors are humans with feelings, but no, it does not mean the fact of their being human should make them exempt from criticism. 

When you sell something, you are trading your skill (and the results thereof) for money. In any commercial transaction, this gives the buyer the right to criticize the results... and the worse the result, the more right to criticize the buyer has. I agree that sometimes that criticism can be misplaced, but oftentimes it is very apropos if it forces the vendor to stop and reconsider the item being sold. To be honest though, emotions should have nothing to do with it from the vendor's POV. Some folks will love what you sell, some will hate it, and some will go ballistic on you if one of your products doesn't meet expectations.

Your example, I get it. Dude didn't mislead anyone, so no foul (and to be honest, scaling is drop-easy with my workflow). OTOH, $40/hr is less than what I get paid (by quite a bit), so if it wastes my time* too much, I am going to avoid it.

• Okay, maybe I should define that... wasting my time means having to do something that gets between me and what I really want to do with the item I just bought. If I have to spend time over and over again fixing something that shouldn't be broken? It's going to affect my opinion of the product, and by extension the maker of it, and I am more willing to cast it aside than I would an item that I built myself.

As those who know me already know, when it comes to actual products that are shoddy or otherwise fell well short of the sales description? Get a condom for your heart little merchie, because your feelings will get fucked. It ain't personal, mind you - just that it's all business when my money is involved. I am perfectly understanding of errors on my part (let's say that I didn't fully RTFM) or due to actual technical issues (oh, it's an .exe file on my Mac and I missed the "Windows Only" bit...) - you'll never hear a peep from me in such cases, and I'll eat the cost without complaint. On the other hand, I will have no mercy when it comes to incompetence, misrepresentation, or shoddy workmanship. I will clarify and confirm that it isn't my fault first, but you'd better pray that your product with up to snuff. Same as in real life, really - I get paid a decent wage because I provide expertise and work that is professional - if I provide less than that, I don't expect any sort of kindness or understanding from my employer, so why should you expect kindness or understanding from me when you fail to meet basic standards in your product?

Mind you, I'm a fairly handy mesh-maker nowadays, but I will not sell a single product. Why? Because I know that what I make won't be up to standards that I set for others, so I basically give it away for free. Yeah, I'm a picky SOB. Welcome to commerce.

Zev0, 

Regarding: "The problem is not that vendors need to be pushed, but customers who are quite happy using older versions of Poser. They limit the overall progression and compatibility of products. Most vendors cannot afford to alienate the older users, who are still the majority and who still bring in the most sales. Also, most customers are happy with the "level" and type of content. If they weren't, they wouldn't buy, and vendors wouldn't make them."

This is a question that has plagued developers from time immemorial - do you force progress, or make what sells? It's a balancing act. If you don't want to support older versions of an app... don't. If you don't want to support D|S (or Poser)... don't. Make the risk/benefit analysis with whatever information you can find or find out, then make the decision from that. Maybe split the baby and make two versions (one supports A, the other only supports B), and see what sells better, using that info to guide your decisions later on. 

Well, Penguinisto, my point is simply that it isn't really "commerce", as you're used to thinking about it. It's more on the level of a garage sale. And you don't go to a garage sale and denounce the seller because the things for sale don't come in their original packaging or don't have valid manufacturers' warranties still in place.

Some vendors make enough money for it to be their "job". Unsurprisingly, you find that they approach the activity with the level of professionalism that you demand. But others, and I expect it's overwhelmingly most, don't even come close to that level of income. For them, it's still a hobby. There's money involved, but there's also money involved in a late night poker game or a sports pool. Yet you don't expect your poker buddies to operate their table like a casino.

Simple fact is that most vendors are hobbyists selling to other hobbyists, and that's why the prices are hobby level prices. That industry professionals can come into this market and enjoy these ridiculous prices is quite a boost. But if you start making industry professional demands on people who are not earning industry professional salaries, you're just demonstrating that you've swallowed the corporate mindset of worker exploitation so fully that you've lost your compassion (and your reason).

I'd rather be broke than lose my empathy. But that's just me.