OTOH - Project E is coming and it should be just what you are looking for.

Yet another entry in the long list of saviours. Meanwhile, in the real world, the RPublishing collective of this thread title is churning out G2/G3/Iray content.

So what?  There is a whole lot of stuff sold here for Vue, Bryce, Photoshop, etc.  Why the sudden panic? There is a bit of g3 content here, because there isn't very much at DAZ.   Genesis 3 is just another niche figure, just like any other post-V4 figure.  If you look closely, you would know there are only about a couple dozen vendors (at best) making content for the genesis series on a regular basis at DAZ and a dozen or so here (with a lot of overlap). 

The only people panicking are the people that are hell-bent that they are not going to leave a Poser 4 workflow and Poser 6 figures behind.  At some point, they need to leave the 1990's and join us in the 21st century.

Previously your argument was that no genesis content was being at no other store than DAZ (even when it was) and that was a bad thing. Now you're saying more content is being made at other stores than DAZ and that's now a bad thing. Can you explain this change in views? Seems to me it is a testament to the popularity of G3 if you have products on all stores (including genital props for V7) despite being DS only.

Hey, folks, is it even possible to have a conversation about Poser figures here?  I really don't want to waste my time in thread after thread after thread about DAZ figures when I am using Poser figures in game dev.

How does every post about Poser figures eventually end up about Genesis?  And, if that's the case, I'll just move on to somewhere more productive.

Never used genesis 3 and there's no beef with the figure, looks nice. Kinda have to agree that it's a niche figure though, doesn't work smoothly in Poser or Carrara. Why bother even thinking about it from my perspective.

Oh, and if you think that genesis isn't a porn figure you're woefully misinformed.

Hey, folks, is it even possible to have a conversation about Poser figures here?  I really don't want to waste my time in thread after thread after thread about DAZ figures when I am using Poser figures in game dev.

How does every post about Poser figures eventually end up about Genesis?  And, if that's the case, I'll just move on to somewhere more productive.

Well considering the OP mentioned g3 several times, I guess it's par for the course.

Never used genesis 3 and there's no beef with the figure, looks nice. Kinda have to agree that it's a niche figure though, doesn't work smoothly in Poser or Carrara. Why bother even thinking about it from my perspective.

Oh, and if you think that genesis isn't a porn figure you're woefully misinformed.

Perhaps a few years have passed and maybe Genesis isn't the thing that has become niche? ;) Maybe that's why support got dropped? And there is a difference between a figure that can be used for porn (via add ons and products) and a figure specially made for porn (e.g. the genital detail and morphs standard that only those artist would really care about)

Hey, folks, is it even possible to have a conversation about Poser figures here?  I really don't want to waste my time in thread after thread after thread about DAZ figures when I am using Poser figures in game dev.

How does every post about Poser figures eventually end up about Genesis?  And, if that's the case, I'll just move on to somewhere more productive.

Short answer - No.  One can always count on DAZ vendors like Terrance to show up and muddy the waters.  OTOH, the OP is mentioned their breathless concern over genesis 3 content showing up at 'Rosity, so some talk about genesis will show up. In addition, it isn't all that difficult to get genesis 1 & 2 working in Poser as a native figure, without the need for any DAZ code mucking up the stability of Poser.  I find the genesis 1 figure quite useful for making aliens, via Dario Fish's stuff here  (If you have a need for non-humans, buy them all.  You will be glad you did.).  AFA humans, genesis 1 & 2 are just the same bog standard 20 something Caucasians that have been available for V4/M4 for years now.  The only other thing they bring to the table is that they are from DAZ.

I like niche, so long as it's useful to me. ;°

Hey, folks, is it even possible to have a conversation about Poser figures here?  I really don't want to waste my time in thread after thread after thread about DAZ figures when I am using Poser figures in game dev.

How does every post about Poser figures eventually end up about Genesis?  And, if that's the case, I'll just move on to somewhere more productive.

Short answer - No.  One can always count on DAZ vendors like Terrance to show up and muddy the waters.  OTOH, the OP is mentioned their breathless concern over genesis 3 content showing up at 'Rosity, so some talk about genesis will show up. In addition, it isn't all that difficult to get genesis 1 & 2 working in Poser as a native figure, without the need for any DAZ code mucking up the stability of Poser.  I find the genesis 1 figure quite useful for making aliens, via Dario Fish's stuff here  (If you have a need for non-humans, buy them all.  You will be glad you did.).  AFA humans, genesis 1 & 2 are just the same bog standard 20 something Caucasians that have been available for V4/M4 for years now.  The only other thing they bring to the table is that they are from DAZ.

LOL the waters are only dirty because the dirt was intentionally thrown in by others. Maybe those other posts are actually chlorine? ;) Also DAZ characters are used because they are the most flexible morph wise. In the right hands they can changed to creatures, and in Genesis they add items like creature legs, wings, horns that become part of the figure, and all the clothing all fits without vendor intervention, and you don't have to buy a pro version of a program to a similar capability. Any figure that comes along is going to be held to that standard, as no one will buy a new figure that does not do everything the old figure did or makes it easier to do their art. That's pretty much where all these other poser figures fail.

Hey, folks, is it even possible to have a conversation about Poser figures here?  I really don't want to waste my time in thread after thread after thread about DAZ figures when I am using Poser figures in game dev.

How does every post about Poser figures eventually end up about Genesis?  And, if that's the case, I'll just move on to somewhere more productive.

Short answer - No.  One can always count on DAZ vendors like Terrance to show up and muddy the waters.  OTOH, the OP is mentioned their breathless concern over genesis 3 content showing up at 'Rosity, so some talk about genesis will show up. In addition, it isn't all that difficult to get genesis 1 & 2 working in Poser as a native figure, without the need for any DAZ code mucking up the stability of Poser.  I find the genesis 1 figure quite useful for making aliens, via Dario Fish's stuff here  (If you have a need for non-humans, buy them all.  You will be glad you did.).  AFA humans, genesis 1 & 2 are just the same bog standard 20 something Caucasians that have been available for V4/M4 for years now.  The only other thing they bring to the table is that they are from DAZ.

I do Game Development.  No way in heck I'm paying the DAZ license fees to use Genesis in my workflow. I have zero interest in DAZ, DAZ products or DAZ game licensing fees.  Too rich for my blood.

Try this then https://www.morph3d.com/

Try this then https://www.morph3d.com/

Thanks, but I create my own game content using Poser figures.  Not what I am looking for.

I like niche, so long as it's useful to me. ;°

Right there with you.
At the end of the day, that is what matters the most.

None of this has anything to do with Renderosity making their own figures.

Let's keep it on topic.

Lack of "documentation" hasn't slowed the release of Genesis content you see here in the stores now has it? SM has documentation, so where is the content? Proof that Documentation means nothing. People have official threads and Youtube to find answers to questions. Bible style manuals is the old way of learning, and has no real bearing on content release.

Documentation for new features in Carrara is non existant, no amount of links to wikis is going to prove otherwise. I've been down that road. Daz's documentation strategy is piss poor.

I will counter however that if not for bagginsbill, Poser's material room would still be in the virtual dark ages.

Wow, that completely screwed up my post.

Sorry SSGBryan - I quoted your post but for some reason your post got replaced with mine.Can't seem to find a way to fix it.

I was saying, none of this has anything to do with Renderosity making their own figure. Please keep this on topic.

Lack of "documentation" hasn't slowed the release of Genesis content you see here in the stores now has it? SM has documentation, so where is the content? Proof that Documentation means nothing. People have official threads and Youtube to find answers to questions. Bible style manuals is the old way of learning, and has no real bearing on content release.

It seems to have slowed content developers - as a reminder, it took 6 months for genesis 1 to reach 300 items (I kept a careful track)  4 years on, and genesis 3 is keeping that pace.  AFA how many content developers, there are only a fraction of them that V4 has (or DAZ had before the release of genesis 1).

Official Threads?  Obviously, you have never been to DAZ's Technical Help forum.  The latest threads:

Render makes PC power off (reproducable)

How to split shoes

Is it possible to change the pivot point of an object?

loading in paid content from other sites

DAZ IRAY won't stop Crashing

Bunch of high level lernin' going on there.  Especially since no one from DAZ participates in that forum - or anywhere else for that matter. 

I suspect they don't because they have spent the past 3 1/2 weeks trying to figure out how to package an OSX product with an OSX installer (Request #196181 on the DAZ tracker) - Those "crack" developers have been at it since the 1st week of July, with no success apparently.  I will be hitting the 30 window by Thursday - will probably have to get my money back.

The reason it has taken me over 6 months to build tutorials on converting DS content to Poser native is because THERE ISN'T ANY DOCUMENTATION.  I have had to spend months testing each f*&^ing step, because the "reference" documentation consists 2 documents - and neither of them have anything of any value.  This is precisely why DS users require so much hand-holding (Visit the tech support threads).  Lack of documentation was a driver in DAZ's inability to get people to pay for Daz Studio - well that, and the fact that most of the subsystems were still in beta when it flopped out the door.  - Which was the excuse for things not working in the Official Threads.  I was there, thank you very much.

Youtube?  Seriously?  Video tutorials are the least effective method of teaching ANYTHING if you are expecting long-term knowledge retention. 

Wow, that completely screwed up my post.

Sorry SSGBryan - I quoted your post but for some reason your post got replaced with mine.Can't seem to find a way to fix it.

I was saying, none of this has anything to do with Renderosity making their own figure. Please keep this on topic.

Renderosity Forum software at it's finest. Back on topic - I am not adverse to Renderosity having it's own figure - I like to collect them and I can always find a use for them.  I even managed to find a use for the Eroko figure - In my stories, she is in charge of the brig - keeping people tied up.  (If you don't get that joke, you obviously don't have Eroko.)

That being said, Renderosity bought Blacksmith 3d & Texture Transformer - based on how well that product is supported, I doubt anyone at 'Rosity has the skill sets to make their own figure.

At the end of the day:

1.  No figure is going to please the luddites, and

2.  The people who have a vested economic interest in other figures are going to spend a great deal of time disrupting threads - as opposed to helping the poor people that actually use their figure of choice.

3.  Those of us who chose not to be limited to 1 figure are having a blast.  The explosion of characters we have seen over the past couple of years has been great and in my case, has really pushed me to up my skills.

Now is an awesome time to be a Poser user.

Youtube?  Seriously?  Video tutorials are the least effective method of teaching ANYTHING if you are expecting long-term knowledge retention.

Using videos to teach a highly visual activity? Come on.You should contact Gnomon and tell them to stop using such an inappropriate medium for teaching and revert to books (better if handwritten on parchment).

Well, he did say "if" you are expecting long-term knowledge retention. I guess for some people the time it takes to alt-tab from a video to the software they are learning is too long term. Slow computer maybe?

For the OP, you're not getting anything better than Dawn for a non-Daz figure, the community might as well support that because if you don't no one else is going to make the effort Hivewire3d did.

2.  The people who have a vested economic interest in other figures are going to spend a great deal of time disrupting threads - as opposed to helping the poor people that actually use their figure of choice.

So, this would explain your increased "participation" in the G3 threads over at DAZ3D forums? Also with Rpublishing releasing a Genesis 3 outfit yesterday (along with a texture set from a vendor), I can't see them risking money on a building a figure from scratch. Figures are not easy things to create, especially if you want to be morphable and flexible. Rendo is a brokerage that sells content and software; if someone wants to sell a figure through them, they don't have a problem with that. But to set aside resources for a new figure? I think they're making a much better business decision to support the current popular figures than risking the business on something new and untested.

All this noise over a imaginary character ,it's kind of funny.

but Renderosity has been the lunch pad for just about all the original characters released .

Renderosity even playeda major role with Dawn.

but it is ironic the most successful not released by DAZ characters Dawn ,ApolloMaximus CGI Artist are associated with DAZ.

and it's kind of funny that DAZ Genesis is the enemy but DAZ V1,V2,V3, V4 is not .

Think I alt to get DAZ to Release my characters for me ? 

So when it says Artist it will Read DAZ,RorrKonn. 

Will have modern DAZ characters in Poser & all will be right with the world again.

"Youtube?  Seriously?  Video tutorials are the least effective method of teaching  "

LOL!!! were it not for Companies like the afformentioned Gnomon and Digital tutors Lynda.com et al as well as all of the FREE tutorials video on you tube,

The advanced features  of high end CG production Apps like adobe After Affects SideFx Houdini or Autodesk 3Dmax, would still be "black Arts" reserved for those  elite padwans who actually get hired by industrial light & Magic& Weta Digital or who can at least afford the prohibitively costly tuition at Full Sail university.

Just try to do anything substantial  using only Official "manual" that ships with nextlimit's Realflow and see how far you get....trust me it wont be far.

"ANYTHING if you are expecting long-term knowledge retention. "

Really now ???..by that logic why even have College campus's with all of the bothersome Visual interaction with instructors and Lab equipment etc.

when you could just send Harvard one big check for $200,000 and wait for the delivery of your Massive wooden crate filled with all of the textbooks & "Documentation" needed for ones MBA  :-/.

LOL!!! were it not for Companies like the afformentioned Gnomon and Digital tutors Lynda.com et al as well as all of the FREE tutorials video on you tube,

The advanced features  of high end CG production Apps like adobe After Affects SideFx Houdini or Autodesk 3Dmax, would still be "black Arts" reserved for those  elite padwans who actually get hired by industrial light & Magic& Weta Digital or who can at least afford the prohibitively costly tuition at Full Sail university.

Agreed.

The reason it has taken me over 6 months to build tutorials on converting DS content to Poser native is because THERE ISN'T ANY DOCUMENTATION.

Ummmm...Do you honestly think they will make documentation endorsing a hack, when they have released DSON? If you want to make hack documentation on making content native then go ahead. Don't expect a company who is against it to do that for you. Why would they release documentation on methods that break the functionality of their content?

Youtube?  Seriously?  Video tutorials are the least effective method of teaching ANYTHING if you are expecting long-term knowledge retention.

Using videos to teach a highly visual activity? Come on.You should contact Gnomon and tell them to stop using such an inappropriate medium for teaching and revert to books (better if handwritten on parchment).

In the educational field we have about 20 years worth of empirical evidence that it IS the least effective for long-term knowledge retention.  Proving that video works as a teaching tool was the holy grail for about 20 years - the problem is the data doesn't support the thesis - as an entire generation of Doctorial candidates has proven. Companies do them because they are easy to make - there isn't a lot of time or effort to put into them compared to other teaching methodologies

It is all part of the Some people learn by doing, others learn by listening, other learn by watching nonsense that came out of the educational establishment post WWII.  It's a great theory, but the problem is there was no data to support it - and there still isn't. 

It is all part of the Some people learn by doing, others learn by listening, other learn by watching nonsense that came out of the educational establishment post WWII.  It's a great theory, but the problem is there was no data to support it - and there still isn't.

So how did you learn to walk and speak? By reading documentation? Or by watching and emulating and listening to people in your environment and what you were exposed to? When kids learn a dance move that is on TV, do they not watch the video and emulate the moves? No, I guess they consult the documentation in order to learn it:) Who needs supporting data when the proof is right in front of you? I for one cannot read pages of a document. It is why I seek visual or audio aid. That is how I learn things. A lot of creative orientated people are that way. NOT everybody learns the same way. That entire generation of Doctorial candidates can kiss my ass. And Guess what, the things I learned from Youtube tutorials I still know.

To add, I take it you can still walk and speak? So that whole no long-term knowledge retention crap via visual and audio stimulation can also kiss my ass. FYI, I don't remember half the crap I learned in Biology in high school, and that was document style learning. I can go on and on but I think I made my point. Now please, can we drop this stupid argument? Thanks.

Just because YOU learn better from visual and audio doesn't mean it is the same for everyone.

I am hearing impaired, so video tutorials are pretty much useless to me.

I guess I am just doomed to live in the 'dark ages' huh, good thing Poser comes with a comprehensive manual!

I said for certain types of people. Those who want to learn via manual styled documents are free to do that. Just don't feed me that crap that it works for everybody and is the best solution to learning something and is the ONLY way to get information.

The Silo manual is about as complicated as text manuals need to be. Tells you what something is and its basic function.

Speaking of Silo, I learned how to model in Silo via videos, not by reading the manual. Do I know everything about it, no. But I still learned and made multiple vehicles. I have also retained my knowledge of it. If anyone would like a list of Silo videos to learn from, please let me know as I kept the list.

Just because YOU learn better from visual and audio doesn't mean it is the same for everyone.

I am hearing impaired, so video tutorials are pretty much useless to me.

I guess I am just doomed to live in the 'dark ages' huh, good thing Poser comes with a comprehensive manual!

People with dyslexia see the situation under the opposite light.

Can't use the manual if there isn't one..

And we saying even if there is one, most of us wouldn't even bother. We find quicker answers to our questions via alternative methods.

Sure, options are good!

But no manual = less options

i learn either way, i 'spose, but i will say that there have been plenty of times where i just can't stand sitting in front of the PC any longer, so a manual, for me, does provide portability.  and before one says anything about phones/ipads and the internet, etc., i don't own a mobile, and even if i did, a girl can only take so much technology on any given day [heh].  plus, i'm a 'reader', have been my whole life, and in terms of a manual, i can think things through a bit better, a bit more clearly - where do i wanna go, what do i think is possible, etc. - a manual sometimes helps me see 'the bigger picture' as opposed to a singular type task.  that bit usually comes later on in my quest for knowledge/learning.

watching tuts is great tho, i'd think, because that way you can pause, alt+tab to your application, emulate/interact, restart, move along in the process...

though i'd say, overall, nothing beats talking things through/brainstorming with an actual individual.  i think i learn the best, and the most, this way. 

 well ,I didn't really learn to read till I got a PC ,didn't need it before a PC.still learning to right ;)

but the old manual's where wrote buy a 3rd party that had no idea what they where righting about.

I learned 3D buy a mailing list.after I fussed about the 3rd party none CGI Artist intruding ,they started making tutorials buy CGI Artist as part of the manual. 

I like zBrushes video's

and I appreciate the ones that make the youtube video's but some could be made a lot better. 

volume control,back ground noise,and going and a 1000 times. 

if your going to do something do it right. 

but these days forums are the best. 

One problem with most video tutorials is that it's assuming you understand English without problems. Guess what, most of the world does not have English as their native tongue. A written manual can easily be translated to any language.

Eh, what was the topic of this thread again?

Eh, what was the topic of this thread again?

The wish that RPublishing collective wasted their time and money developing yet another dead on arrival Poser-only figure instead of keeping producting economically viable content for G2, G3 and Iray.

i learn either way, i 'spose, but i will say that there have been plenty of times where i just can't stand sitting in front of the PC any longer, so a manual, for me, does provide portability.  and before one says anything about phones/ipads and the internet, etc., i don't own a mobile, and even if i did, a girl can only take so much technology on any given day [heh].  plus, i'm a 'reader', have been my whole life, and in terms of a manual, i can think things through a bit better, a bit more clearly - where do i wanna go, what do i think is possible, etc. - a manual sometimes helps me see 'the bigger picture' as opposed to a singular type task.  that bit usually comes later on in my quest for knowledge/learning.

watching tuts is great tho, i'd think, because that way you can pause, alt+tab to your application, emulate/interact, restart, move along in the process...

though i'd say, overall, nothing beats talking things through/brainstorming with an actual individual.  i think i learn the best, and the most, this way. 

I half typed a response to the video learning debate and then realised it was way off topic, so deleted it.   RPublishing is in the business of making money, which is why they will build content for G2, G3 and Iray, in the same way they still make items for V4.  No doubt they will develop for the new Cycles render engine in Poser 11, if they see a market. The are not really interested in the petty 'mine is better than yours' squabbles it just needs to make money.  

After the slating Scarlet got in these forums I wonder why anyone would want to develop a new figure, let alone RPublishing.   

Well Scarlet came out with the "I am what Poser is supposed to be" attitude, making claims, and it couldn't back it up. So she deserved what she got. Also, where is the two to 3 content releases a week? That should be removed from the figure promo. It is misleading and is no longer the case. Another false promise made. There is nothing wrong with releasing a figure. It's how you deliver it that is important. Don't come to the market place claiming to be a figure of a new error, or Poser the way its supposed to be, unless it has the ability to back it up. Make claims like that and people will be hard on it looking for proof.

Well Scarlet came out with the "I am what Poser is supposed to be" attitude, making claims, and it couldn't back it up. So she deserved what she got. Also, where is the two to 3 content releases a week? That should be removed from the figure promo. It is misleading and is no longer the case. Another false promise made.There is nothing wrong with releasing a figure. It's how you deliver it that is important. Don't come to the market place claiming to be a figure of a new error, or Poser the way its supposed to be, unless it has the ability to back it up. Make claims like that and people will be hard on you.

I agree the launch and the promo could have been handled better but as it came from a small team I thought the objections were, on occasions, a little personal and a little more vicious than required, but that is a very personal opinion.  Only trouble is I doubt any other figure would have been welcomed any better.  Many seem to be looking for a V4 killer from day one which is unrealistic in my view. As to the the two to three content releases a week, again a valid criticism, but perhaps the team became dis-heartened when the figure was stoned to death. 

As to the the two to three content releases a week, again a valid criticism, but perhaps the team became dis-heartened when the figure was stoned to death.

Disheartened or not, if it is a false statement and it needs to be removed if it is no longer valid. You cannot make a claim on something if it is no longer the case. You just end up losing credibility as a seller. What if some people are buying her because of that promise of content weekly? Honestly I would have just released the figure with no promises made.

true, everyone wants to do the green back boogie.  creating content for existing things, well, they RPublishing] seem to do okay at that.  and even w.out the warranted pulverizing of Scarlett, i for one don't really foresee RP doing a figure, period.  i'm guessing, as mentioned earlier in this thread, that there are more than just a few of us that still have that stale Renda taste in our mouths...

Scarlet is a great character. that because it's not a DAZ production will be at best ignored or at worst crucified.

They say the public is the hardest boss to work for.Some of the Rederosity public gives a hole new meaning to that phrase.

If I was Sixus1 I'd go sell Scarlet at turbo n the likes for all the app's.

Windows rules OS's ,DAZ rules Poser Characters ,that's just how it is.

I have nothing against DAZ or DAZ Studio but I'll never get why Poser holds on to DAZ the way they do.

Roxie is a great character also. 

but If Renderosity releases a Renderosity Character they need to get DAZ to make it for them.

So at the end of the day it will have a DAZ stamp on it.

"but If Renderosity releases a Renderosity Character they need to get DAZ to make it for them.So at the end of the day it will have a DAZ stamp on it."

There is already a viable, poser native, Daz female Character with terabytes of content

Its called DAZ Victoria 4" I believe.

V4 has prevailed over Alison,Sydney,Roxie, Dawn etc. ,NOT because of some magical DAZ pedigree

But because V4 (aging, & still flawed) , is still a BETTER FIGURE than the ones I just mentioned ......sorry.

Joepublic's recent ,Brilliant Rant Said it best 
I suggest any potential figure maker read it and take heed.

Expecting buyers& merchants to support your sub standard new figure based on emotional factors such as :

Hatred of DAZ, 

Tribal like loyalty to Poser& poser only content.

Nerdy McNerd, Startrekish,Technobabble about Exotic rigging implementations.

or Grandios, Bloviated "Mission Statements"

about a "New Era or "The future of Poser

(Antonia..LOL!!),^^

Well.. such nonsense simply does not work with a user base as Mature as this one.

A lot of really skilled people worked on Antonia; ODF, Diogenes, LesBentley, Cage, Bagginsbill, and the list goes on. Considering it was a free, community effort figure I don't see why you would need to denigrate the work of those folks.

Oh, and you forgot to mention your "pipeline". Lol.

"A lot of really skilled people worked on Antonia; ODF, Diogenes, LesBentley, Cage, Bagginsbill, and the list goes on. Considering it was a free, community effort figure I don't see why you would need to denigrate the work of those folks."

The community largely rejected the END RESULT of the work of those talented folks

To point out that the Microsoft "Zune" was an Epic Failure is not a value judgement of the MS Engineers that did the skilled grunt work to develop it.

Also I was refering to the over blown hyperbole such as the gawdy, brobdingnagian

 "They are coming" forum Banners as well as the, frankly silly"Mission Statement"
 at "poser place"

"Oh, and you forgot to mention your "pipeline". Lol."

Not relevant but since you brought it up

My main reason for My  Deleting "Antonia"
Almost immediately had nothing to do with her 
overall looks or Attractiveness.

As an animator I need figures that use Standard Bone naming and rotational conventions for the purpose of motion retargeting.

This allows me to Create one Complex animation in Iclone or Endorphin
for Daz Mike4 or vicky 4.
and later re-use it on V3,V2,P6 Jessi & James,Miki 2 Daz Genesis 1 & 2

(with minor tweaks of course) 

Antonia's Exotic"wave of the Future"
rigging precluded her from accepting any of my huge library of Motion data.

Making her useless to my .......Pipeline :-) 

 Fair enough wolf359.