wolf359 It's all a matter of the end user perspective.There's no way to make everyone happy. 

I know my perspective is the exception and not the rule.

I dislike like how V4 moves as much as you dislike Antonia's rigs.

but I think Roxie and V4 rigs need tweaking.

and I'm not working on a mesh rigs that has a polycount of 60,000.

So from my perspective Roxie is better then V4. I know every one does not agree with me.

I also think one of all the characters biggest problems is if one tweaks the rigs,they can not give a way or sell the tweak.

they had to go threw a lot of unnecessary headache to release the V4WM. 

Antonia's a open mesh ya can morph her pretty and do what ever you want to the rigs ,mesh ,map ,any thing at all.

you can even  model wings in to her mesh and give it away or sell it.

but they just throw her a way .I've never seen them throw a DAZ mesh away.

Winterclaw's initial post addresses a very serious and real situation as it stands for Poser. I also agree that people are not willing to jump over to using a new figure until there is a very large amount of content or the hope of that content arriving in a steady stream as it does from Daz for DS users. There does need to be a Poser equivalent but that would mean a very large investment of time and the ability to stick with it for a long haul to see returns. It is not practical for a small individual to do. It must be done by a larger entity who can afford to spend the time and pay people to make content until Poser users have gained confidence that the figure will continue to get support. There is a market opportunity, but Poser users are so stuck on using Daz figures that I am not sure if they will ever move on even when a good figure is offered. There are too many people eager to sink the new figure and too few vendors either willing or able to support it. 

HiveWire3D is about the biggest most experienced company you could get to make Poser characters.
You can still see HiveWire3D topology on V6.
I don't have V7 so can't say but V7 was built on all the V's before her so HW3D will always be part of the V's.
and We all know how Dawn's doing. 

lets do a new this vs that app.
lets go Max vs Poser.
Witch is same as saying Max,Lightwave,Maya,Houdinie,C4D vs Poser DAZ.

Say we make a character for Poser and it has to be perfect out of the box cause they won't tweak rigs ,maps or anything.
But they will yell about are mesh if are mesh is not there perception of perfection.
They want the perfect mesh for $50.00 and they want 1/2 million pages of content for $10.00.
They want the close and hair conforming.
Conforming cloths n hair are 10x's more of a hassle to make then dynamic cloths n hair.
you would need a studio full of 3D Artist willing to work for pennies a hour to get no where enough done.

or

We could sell a character to Max ,that would tweak the mesh to there liking and make there own close n hair
or buy are hassle free dynamic hair n cloths.and make 1/2 million dollars like nikola dechev did.

I really don't see a lot of 3D Artist competing for Vicky's Crown.

.

Dawn sins were many:

• too few morphs and not designed to be used as building blocks (like DAZ morph packs)
• the default textures unusable to create freebies
• very difficult to morph in programs like Blender
• very slow release of specific content.

If these easily predictable errors had not existed, Dawn might have taken off.

Hivewire3D had their occasion and they squandered it; I see no other realistic option for a post V4 Poser native mainstream figure. Unless a mad idea of mine: SM is badly integrating/castrating Cyles; what if they tried to do the same with MakeHuman? they could sell it to the point-and-clickers as Poser "Genesis".

not necessarily a lot of topology but some and you can see a lot of V3 in V4.

 well as far as I am concerned the only sin Dawn committed was she's not named DAZ Vicky ;)

 well as far as I am concerned the only sin Dawn committed was she's not named DAZ Vicky ;)

You are exactly right! She is a great figure and I use her all of the time, but she entered the market when V4 was still reigning supreme and Poser users were clinging fast to her and still hoping that Daz would somehow change their minds and make a fully integrated Vicky for Poser. Now that V7 has arrived and has even less compatibility with Poser, they have finally realized that it isn't going to happen. Meanwhile V4 has been steadily aging. Dawn has extensive morphs, and I can make characters just as beautiful and versatile with her as any other figure using just her official HW Head and Body morph dials. I love that figure actually, but there needs to be a much greater vendor base creating things for her in order for there to be a mass exodus of Poser users from V4 and/or the DSON G2. There was a lot of bashing and there continues to be bashing of the Dawn figure based on her default shape and texture which I have never understood because who renders V4 in her purple second skin swimsuit or the gray un-textured-unmorphed Genesis figure? Also, because she is not a  Poser only character, vendors do perceive the need to support both DS and Poser for her, and that greatly slows down the production process.  At the same time, vendors need to be able to make a living at what they do, and in order to get a figure really going, they would need to be willing to start supporting another character in the very least in tandem with whatever other figure they are supporting and not look at the short term gains but the long term sustainability of what they are doing. Who knows what will happen now? 

I keep reading where people say Dawn had her chance and failed to make it. That is kind of absurd since the only way for a figure  to take the place of V4 for Poser is by years of content and a steady replacement of her in the store, not a mass rush, but through sustained support. It is time for Poser users to look beyond Daz figures and as far as I am concerned Dawn is the best option for that. HW is also getting ready to release a new edition of her, so she has not gone anywhere despite the predictions that she is somehow obsolete. 

I'm going to just throw this out there, but aren't we forgetting about Scarlet?  She looks to have lots of potential, even enough to overtake V4 as the go-to figure for Poser users.  I've been salivating over her since she came out and am seriously considering adding her to my runtime when funds allow.  Vendors not only need to expand support, but users need to be willing to go out on a limb every once in a while and support new figures by purchasing them and sharing their experiences.  More buyers equals more vendors supporting the figure in question.

I'm going to just throw this out there, but aren't we forgetting about Scarlet?  She looks to have lots of potential, even enough to overtake V4 as the go-to figure for Poser users.  I've been salivating over her since she came out and am seriously considering adding her to my runtime when funds allow.  Vendors not only need to expand support, but users need to be willing to go out on a limb every once in a while and support new figures by purchasing them and sharing their experiences.  More buyers equals more vendors supporting the figure in question.

While I purchased Scarlet, liked her, and continue to use her I fear the roasting that the figure got on launch has probably limited the figures future.  Also Scarlet was produced by a two person team, as far as I understand, and they are not going to compete with Hivewire3D. I have not written off Dawn and I do feel the figure has potential but there is nothing I have seen done with Dawn that cannot be done with V4WM.  I accept that V4 is older but I don't see that has any relevance in regards to a mesh, other than the fact I have been able to work with it for a long time and know what I can and can't do.

Lots of content is a two edge sword, yes a new figure needs a lot of content but then there will be those that complain that they cannot afford to buy new content for any figure.  

I also think there are some users that want the market to be as it was with V4 but with a figure that is not V4.  I don't think this is possible and for all her age and her faults I do not think we will see the likes for V4 again as regards a 'go to' figure and much as I like V4 that may not be a bad thing.

As many people, for better informed than me have said, Rpublishing has far better ways of making money, with far less risk, than producing another figure.

It does make sense. I think it will take a lot and a long time to officially dethrone V4 as a go to figure.  But now I'm curious as to how many folks have and use Scarlet and Dawn regularly.

They ever fix that asymmetry issue with Scarlet? I don't have her so I've never looked for myself, just going by the initial uproar. Fixing misalignment in the centers of a rig is one thing, fixing an asymmetrical mesh after launch seems like an incredibly daunting task.

 Even thou Scarlet is a very nice character for only $50.00,they crucified her.
That's the thing about Poserdome ,Poserdome will crucify a character instead of tweaking the character to there liking.

Yes V4 has a lot of content.
Poser the app needs to fix it that any content for V4 or any content made for any character will work on any other character Scarlet ,Dawn ,Roxie etc etc in 1 click.
Poser the app needs to fix it that it's 100x's easier to make content for characters also. 
Since Poser 3,4 Days I always thought the way Poser worked was way more complicated n difficult then it needed to be.

@ EldritchCellar  - Don't think so. I never got an update or notification saying there was changes. There was one I think, but it didn't fix all of the issues.

Since Poser 3,4 Days I always thought the way Poser worked was way more complicated n difficult then it needed to be.

And this is why I don't use it for development anymore. Because the minute I saw how easier it was in that other app, I just don't see myself coming back to using the tools here. They are good tools (some of them), but way to over complicated for simple tasks, and half the time you break your brain just trying to get simple things right. It is something they need to focus on to get more people wanting to use the tools again.

Yikes, that's a deal breaker. Totally trashes any kind of brush/tool symmetry functions. Not really an issue if you make clothing and such I imagine. Sixus would have to break all of the base morphs, re-set up all the erc links, jcms, etc. etc. And basically re-release a new .cr2 and .obj? Not sure why Sixus went out on a limb with a realistic human fig when they have such a thriving market with creatures and such. Still think they need a little more competition in the Poser Lovecraftian monster department. Just my rambling observations.

Well it can be an issue if clothing is made to fit on the existing figure, and they update the figure meaning the clothing will now distort in areas that were adjusted to provide symmetry, since they were developed on the version with no symmetry.

What in your mind ZevO is a simple task that is unnecessarily complicated in Poser? This isn't a smart assed question, just curious. All the file editing?

Yeah, I guess with tight fitting stuff that would be an issue. I'm not clear on the magnitude of the asymmetry though.

What in your mind ZevO is a simple task that is unnecessarily complicated in Poser? This isn't a smart assed question, just curious. All the file editing?

Morph saving, rigging bones to match new shapes, there a whole lot where the processes are very much outdated and need to be simplified.

The fitting room makes rigging most clothing pretty painless and quick. If you're working with baggier items then that requires more fine-tuning with falloff zones. But the vast majority of clothing available is skin tight and can be rigged in minutes.

If you're trying to rig clothing in one of the non-pro versions of Poser then I can see how that would be more of a hassle than in other apps.

I'm confused, don't pro features generally become standard in later versions of Poser?

I'm confused, don't pro features generally become standard in later versions of Poser?

Not since Poser added, this time around, a Pro version. (Most of the Original Poser Pro (Poser 4 era) features went into Poser 5.)

Not that I'm aware of.

Most of the results of the pro features work in the standard versions, they just can't be created in the standard version.

For example, animated joint centers will work in Poser 10, but they can only be created in Pro 2014.

I don't remember if that was a feature in Pro 2012 or if it was new in 2014.

cross-posted with bhoins.

Another thing that's only available in pro version is 64-bit architecture. Has been that way since Pro 2010 i believe.

Here's a feature comparison chart covering all the Poser versions from Poser Game Dev back to Poser 7:

http://my.smithmicro.com/docs/poser/PPGameDev-P10-PP2014-P10-Debut-Feature-Comparison-Matrix.pdf

 My bad I did not explain that well enough

I mint Poser and DAZ Studio is way to complicated n difficult to get out fits on a character then needs to be.
and even after the tech hassle I'll never know why they have the characters mouths shut.
The only way I would ever make DAZ Poser character content is to make my own characters for the outfits. 

Your out ya bloody mind if you think I'm going to jump threw all those hoops to make a out fit for Roxie ,Scarlet ,Dawn ,Vicky 1 thru 7 etc etc.
for only gross $10.00's. net $3.00's.

I could make more money in the time it takes to make Roxie ,Scarlet ,Dawn ,Vicky 1 thru 7 etc etc outfits buy mowing a few yards.
with a lot less hassle. 

No, I mean, the creation of animated joint centers is a pro feature but will become standard as a creation function in later versions. I realize this is probably OT but I'm curious, I mean otherwise those creation features would be locked into a past version moving forward. So I mean these pro features only remain pro until the next version, so if you're patient eventually you'll have access to these bells and whistles too.

No, I mean, the creation of animated joint centers is a pro feature but will become standard as a creation function in later versions. I realize this is probably OT but I'm curious, I mean otherwise those creation features would be locked into a past version moving forward. So I mean these pro features only remain pro until the next version, so if you're patient eventually you'll have access to these bells and whistles too.

No, that's not how they've been doing it. The features that are only available in the pro versions continue to only be available in the next pro versions, along with newer features that are, again, only available in the pro version. Whether that remains the case with Poser 11 and on remains to be seen. But that would pretty much defeat the purpose of having a pro version to begin with from a marketing perspective, since more people would just wait it out. Standard Poser is pretty much just an enhanced version of Poser Debut, as far as I understand. I haven't used a standard version of Poser since Poser 7 and I've never used Debut so I can't say for sure. But you can look at the comparison chart I linked to in my previous post to see all the features that have remained only in the pro versions.

Here's the link again:

http://my.smithmicro.com/docs/poser/PPGameDev-P10-PP2014-P10-Debut-Feature-Comparison-Matrix.pdf

Some people find jumping through all those hoops a pleasurable, challenging part of the creative process RorrKonn. You better get yourself some hoop jumping boots if you ever plan on seeing diamond as anything other than a static mesh in Poser. Regardless of what kind of skinning is adopted moving forward.

Ambientshade, I see. Thanks for the clarification. Guess that's why they invented sales, lol.

Ya, if ya get Poser Pro 14 on sale ,it's all good n won't be much to upgrade to Pro 16 either.
I'm a very big fan of 64 bit also :) 

and if you really want to drive your self insane make a mech.
took for ever but I finely figured out how to go about getting what I wanted.
but blue a few processors in the process.Only smart people should attempt to make mechs.
I new the mechs I saw in the movies where wicked killer but I had no idea how difficult they where to make. 

They make making characters seem easy,but there's nothing easy about making characters
but my meshes are game meshes so Diamond will never be any thing other then a game mesh .
released for Pro n gameDev with the understanding that if you can't rig,map,texture etc etc ya self don't get Diamond.
cause there will be some assembly required and a lot of tweaking. 

it's a lot less dangerous to go swimming with great white sharks then it is to release a character around here. ;) 

Look forward to seeing your progress on finishing these things RorrKonn, I'll keep an eye out for your updates. Might want to consider poly count on those treads though, don't think there's any kind of way to retopo something like that successfully. Certainly not in c4d.

"and if you really want to drive your self insane make a mech.

took for ever but I finely figured out how to go about getting what I wanted.

but blue a few processors in the process.Only smart people should attempt to make mechs."

Yeah I mostly do organic modeling anymore, the last mechanical thing I made only has 3 bones. It's an elevator car. Poser render.

Thanks EldritchCellar 

Ya ,I'd like to see all the meshes done my self.
but they worked me a lot last month and this month don't seem to be any lighter.
They just don't seem to get me playing with my hobby is more important then them ;)

Ya I'm wondering off the high end here with the mechs polycount,
I'll make them as low polycount as I can but I'm going after a look that is going to cost a few more polygons.
this kind of mech stuff is new to me so there's a lot of I don't know ,guess will find out at the end.

 EldritchCellar That's a nice looking elevator car :)

The biggest problem for me with new figures is the expectation you have to rebuy every item you've ever bought again. It is like having to rebuy every music album every several years because we're changing from records to 8 tracks to cassettes to cds. At some point you go enough is enough and go with what you have the most of. If I could use my v4 stuff with v7, I'd probably be ok with switching to v7, But I know that Daz will replace v7 in a year or 2, so what is the point?

Being an artist, I want to spend my time creating art, not constantly reconfiguring all my content to the latest figure. I also don't want to be forced to create my own content due to a lack of content available. And this means useful content for me. V4 may have a ton of sexy content, but it has also collected over time a bunch of other, more everyday and functional content as well. To have to wait for that to be replaced on new figures would take forever, seeing as most content put out is made for exotic dancers, bedroom scenes, and such. Not that Im against that sort of thing,, but I also like normal content as well :p

Which brings me to the point of I don't think the v4 market for items has been tapped out. It may be tapped out though for certain products, like lingerie and sexy poses. There should be plenty of room for v4 fantasy armor or sci fi outfits that aren't made for strippers. And m4 content as an entirety is lacking, especially when compared to v4. There are literally more underwear sets for v4 than the entire catalogue of every type of m4 clothes possible. Someone who made decent m4 clothing could probably do quite well for themselves. Or maybe not, maybe the whole casual render industry is porn based, I have no idea :)

The biggest problem for me with new figures is the expectation you have to rebuy every item you've ever bought again. It is like having to rebuy every music album every several years because we're changing from records to 8 tracks to cassettes to cds. At some point you go enough is enough and go with what you have the most of. If I could use my v4 stuff with v7, I'd probably be ok with switching to v7, But I know that Daz will replace v7 in a year or 2, so what is the point?

Being an artist, I want to spend my time creating art, not constantly reconfiguring all my content to the latest figure. I also don't want to be forced to create my own content due to a lack of content available. And this means useful content for me. V4 may have a ton of sexy content, but it has also collected over time a bunch of other, more everyday and functional content as well. To have to wait for that to be replaced on new figures would take forever, seeing as most content put out is made for exotic dancers, bedroom scenes, and such. Not that Im against that sort of thing,, but I also like normal content as well :p

Which brings me to the point of I don't think the v4 market for items has been tapped out. It may be tapped out though for certain products, like lingerie and sexy poses. There should be plenty of room for v4 fantasy armor or sci fi outfits that aren't made for strippers. And m4 content as an entirety is lacking, especially when compared to v4. There are literally more underwear sets for v4 than the entire catalogue of every type of m4 clothes possible. Someone who made decent m4 clothing could probably do quite well for themselves. Or maybe not, maybe the whole casual render industry is porn based, I have no idea :)

I think the point people miss when supporting new figures is that it's NEW content is what drives adoption. Vendors or stores do not make any money from you reusing your items, and that's what really determines a figure's success. No one would have to switched to CD if there weren't new artists that had albums only in CD format. Same with digital formats... it was a new way for customers to use their content, and those savvy enough could make their own music in digital formats or convert their albums over to use the new format. Nothing is different here. So yes, to get adoption going on a figure you do have to invest, otherwise, just keep using your old figure, because the new figure will just fail if you think you can just reuse all your old stuff. There would be no need to vendors to make anything.

Recreating the same items, but for new figures, is not making new content, it is recycling old content but hoping to profit from them. Many artists realize this, which is why new figures don't succeed. If you are offering a new figure, but there really isn't all that noticeable an improvement, but you want me to rebuy all the money I've already spent, that won't happen :p Now, if a vendor creates something I find interesting, I purchase it, as my item history suggests, seeing as I've bought over 300 items at renderosity alone. If daz or whoever thinks I want to rebuy all those items though because they've added a few small features, they are crazy, and I think a lot of artists are like myself.

Recreating the same items, but for new figures, is not making new content, it is recycling old content but hoping to profit from them. Many artists realize this, which is why new figures don't succeed. If you are offering a new figure, but there really isn't all that noticeable an improvement, but you want me to rebuy all the money I've already spent, that won't happen :p Now, if a vendor creates something I find interesting, I purchase it, as my item history suggests, seeing as I've bought over 300 items at renderosity alone. If daz or whoever thinks I want to rebuy all those items though because they've added a few small features, they are crazy, and I think a lot of artists are like myself.

Regardless of what you consider new content... the bottom line is: if you don't invest in the new figure, it fails.

If you are offering a new figure, but there really isn't all that noticeable an improvement,

If daz or whoever thinks I want to rebuy all those items though because they've added a few small features

Yes. Unnoticeable improvements.

I don't know if it would be a very good idea for RP to make their own figure right now (or ever). With the seemingly ever increasing divide between Poser and DS, and not knowing what SM will introduce with the next version of Poser, it would be a huge gamble for them.

Just a quick response to all the discussion on Scarlet. I have the utmost respect for Sixus1, but to be brutally honest, the promo renders are not what you would expect for a figure that is supposed to take advantage of all the new tech in Poser. Seriously, take a critical look at them, and they are are not really up to the current Poser standards. They do nothing to catch your attention and say "WOW, I've got to have that figure!" (like Blackhearted does with his work). I really don't like to nit-pick, but the first images you see of her have here in shoes that are simply too big for her feet (and very unattractive). She may well be an outstanding figure, but IMHO none of the promo renders do anything to inspire me to pay $49.95 for her. It looks to me like none of the promo renders use any of the advanced rendering functions in the last two versions of Poser  (like SSS). That alone makes me very wary and ask myself "What is wrong with the figure that it couldn't be rendered any better than this?"

Again, Scarlet may be a great figure that incorporates and the new tech in Poser, but the promo renders don't make her look that great. Some renders like this one: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/?image_id=2622753 would have gone a long way to making her look more "modern", and inspiring people to purchase her. This also feeds into figure support. If the promo renders don't inspire, then vendors will take a wait and see attitude/approach.

I really don't mean to offend anyone with this post, but so often I see products that may be outstanding, and people even recommend them as being great,, but the promo renders kind of scare me away from purchasing. This is all basic Marketing 101.

Agreed. First impressions are important and if your promos do a poor job at showcasing your figure or are not visually outstanding, well........I mean they didn't even smooth out the jaggered edges when they pasted her on a backdrop and the highlights are washed out. Way too much contrast. I mean you spend 6 years on the figure, at least give it some wow factor promos and if you are not capable of doing so, give the responsibility to somebody who can.

eyes eyes eyes... the eyes have it...

and in terms of Scarlett, i cast my own eyes away due to hers because of how they appeared in the promos and first blush banner ads...

New figures suffer through the same thing new MMOs suffer through. Every new MMO gets compared to Wow and is expected to compete out of the box,which really isn't fair given the amount of time and resources already poured into WoW, but it is what it is. If you want a new figure to compete with v4, you need stability, content, and good publicity, else you'll be doomed from the start.

Did Sixus1 say it took 6 years to make Scarlet ?
For most it more like a day to sculpt it ,a day to retopologize it.1 hour to map it.3 hours to texture it.2 days to rig it, more or less.

You all worry about Promo's a lot .
I can talk for any other CGI Artist but I spend all my time making meshes.
Very little time rendering. I'm all but worthless at rendering.

I like some of the cloths,buildings and all and who don't like sexy lingerie .but a lot of the content sold isn't original and bores me .
Sixus1 is original and has imagination.

I know every one says for a character to succeed they need venders support.
Maybe every ones definition of success is different. 

Well a mainstream human figure needs add ons for versatility (support), imagine if the only texture available for V4 were the default purple undies? I'm curious, you don't seem to have much of a vested artistic interest (or even utilization knowledge of) in Poser why it is you've chosen the Poser forum to be a regular at RorrKonn? This question could be misconstrued as mean spirited but it's not. Just curious. I mean if you don't render with it, you don't rig with it, what do you do with it?

Just cause a few people crucified Scarlet or just cause a few venders didn't make Scarlet stuff ,Don't matter .
Sixus1 has successfully released Scarlet for Poser.

Back in the Day when I first started CGI My very first CGI App's where TrueSpace 4 ,Corel 8. then Poser 4.
I had some Poser Renders in my gallery that where 500x500 pixels .windows 98 screens where around 640x480 pixels .
I took them down cause there to small now. 
Been on this forum since Poser 4 days ,guess that would be around 1998 .
Poser Users taught me a lot about CGI.I still learn stuff from here.
Watched the Users fight like hell to get Poser to do all kinds of cool stuff.
I still believe in and support Poserdome.