**EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY: Changes Made To TOS

New rules added to the TOS to make Renderosity a nice and friendly environment.

Please read them here: http://www.renderosity.com/tos.php

Strange wording for a TOS:

"Flame Baiting. It can be a person unfamiliar with a certain topic/discussion on an internet forum group, saying things that would provoke an angry, teasing, or overall negative response. For example: You’re a loser if you think Poser is better than Daz. OR Everyone knows which software will be at the top next time this year and it won’t be Poser/Daz. [These will purposely provoke negative reactions.]"

I think you mean familiar. How can you purposely provoke negative reactions if you're unfamiliar with a topic? Is being unfamiliar with a certain topic a violation of the TOS? Surely the opposite is true - the problem occurs when someone knows that a topic is contentious, but posts about it anyway.

UNFAMILIAR HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH "FAMILIAR"

Just a little joke and then I'll scurry... enter Renderosity in google and look at the image results. Lol. Probably old news to most but imagine what someone unfamiliar might think? Which brings to mind certain aspects of TOS, none of which I find overly restrictive... Just irony by fractions of degrees.

 In the interest of saving one's sanity in using Poser, avoid any contact with Windows 10. It is impossible to tab through your directories.

i was going to come in and post on this thread to ask who might be best to contact regarding my want of clarification/concerns...

but i'll just say it here directly in case i've the same or similar thoughts/concerns that others might have as well.

i'm not trying to split hairs, believe me, and maybe in some small way, to one aspect of pumeco's point,  my thought process starts here:

what if i should leave an honest critique of something, either here or in the galleries.  i do not do so with malicious intent, nor would i use malicious or calloused words.  however, this written medium can be hard to judge at times, and p'raps my words get misinterpreted by the author of whatever kind of posting, and maybe it also gets misunderstood by whatever mod it would be reported to.  i did read the bit about being able to petition audience in order to state one's case if something like that were to occur.  i can, do, accept that. but still, this whole site is all about communication, either verbally or visually, and i don't want to feel as if i need to prepare a defense before i even type/speak.

and i do believe in, even desire to be a part of, a community that fosters, well, community.  and i believe in respectful discourse.  however, once i put something out there, how it may or mayn't come across to another is entirely out of my control.  there are people who want to have a good critiquing and can stomach it;  there are people who say they want one, but the reality of it is they truly don't;  there are people who only seek praise and take even the lack of it personally [and what i mean by this is that they become offended if no response is given at all];  and there are people who see this, i'm guessing, as just a slightly more interactive place than say Facebook [i've not really been on FB ever so i don't know for certain], and who use this site as a social stomping ground where all their friends can come and tell them how wonderful they are.  and of course, variants in between.

my concern, and yes, i'm being rather long-winded getting here, is that to make people somewhat fearful to speak their opinions openly offers those who may wish to learn/grow less opportunity to do so because whenst in doubt, it's always safer to either say nothing or give a hug.  i'm all for being mindful of tone and language, but some people might read the TOS and think "wow, i should just keep my mouth shut no matter what, just to cover my arse."  and that bit i would be a shame.

it's a tough place, that space that mods have to navigate through, can be a terribly slippery slope, at times trying to mediate a thing where i'd suspect no one is right, nor wrong, or everyone is.  i envy them not, to be sure.

at the end of the day, it boils down to this for me:

i don't want to be in a place riddled with fear, because i want the potential opportunity to grow.

i don't want to be in a place that is all rainbows, ribbons and bows, because i want the potential opportunity to grow.

i don't want to be in a place filled with venom and such hateful intent that it saps me creatively, because i want the potential opportunity to grow.

i applaud the effort to get the ball rolling in cleaning up some huge stinky piles, but i do have my concerns regarding a few things...

 but some people might ... think "wow, i should just keep my mouth shut no matter what, just to cover my arse." 

Now there's an interesting mental image.

I think there are some bad definitions here. Well intentioned, perhaps, but over the line in terms of squelching opinion.

The trolling definition is the most obvious. If a picture is 'ugly', to someone that is an opinion and it is as valid as 'a picture is pretty.'  Less kind and gentlemanly, but still an opinion. I feel an admin is welcome to pull such an opinion -It's Rendo's Forum, it is representative of their company and the company attitude,  and, for lack of a better way to word it I don't mind playing to their style - but to put it in someone's record as a black mark may be at best questionable, especially since any record Renderosity keeps may be handed over to someone for legal purposes. 

I didn't see a mechanism in the TOS that allows a member to review his or her record and add their side of the story if Renderosity has in fact put black marks or adverse comments in a member's record. Just think if someone at Rendo recorded in detail the horrible things someone was doing online,  but then erroneously mis-entered it into another members record, for example.  As Renderosity indicated, such a record is a legal document if it can be handed over to someone who asks for it from outside the company.

The Google defintion of Trolling is better than Rendo's, and I think is best left without an example:

troll2

trōl/

verb

gerund or present participle: trolling

1. 1.

informal

make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

1. 2.

fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat.

"we trolled for mackerel"

It's usually obvious when someone is posting to express their honest opinion and when they're doing it to be deliberately abusive, offensive or disruptive. It's not difficult to state your opinions in a positive, constructive manner, even when it's something you don't like. 

For example, stating something is ugly without giving any reasons why you think so is not constructive and just leads to more negativity. Instead you could say something to the effect of "This render could be a lot better if..." and filling in with ways you think would improve the image. There are different people here with varying levels of skill and a lot of them post their work looking for feedback on ways to improve.

The goal is not to sensor anyone's opinion but to foster a more friendly and productive environment for everybody.

usually, yes, but not always...

again, i want to applaud the effort, and it isn't the idea behind the TOS i feel concerned about, not one iota.  i think this has been a thing too long in coming, so please do not think i'm objecting against a thing that i would advocate for and feel as if you're damned if you, damned if you don't...

i guess i, too, just feel that right now some of the wording is not as well as defined as it could be.  one way, out of many, to aid in fostering the sense of community that so many of us are looking for, is to have clear lines drawn, with clear definitions and/or examples like the one you gave above.  it helps in setting expectations for acceptable vs. unacceptable behaviours, and having a structural framework to draw upon lends a sense of trust, and even community.  and i hate to even make reference to this, but think of this in terms of children and how structure and clear boundaries defined actually gives them a sense of security.  do boundaries get tested?  well, of course they do, but if a clear & consistent message is adhered to by all [meaning TPTB, ie. staff] with as few inconsistencies as possible, i just think it would be better.  and speaking from a totally self-centered perspective, it would go a ways in allying my own personal concerns.

do i think you can give examples to cover every circumstance, all future possibilities of what may or mayn't happen?  absolutely not, nor should you, as in turn, you should be able to rely on your users to have some common sense, some common decency.  a TOS is a thing that is firm, but at the same time is also a WIP in itself because it cannot always account for or define things that have yet to happen and thus were missing.  however, i think as it stands now, it needs a little bit of improvement.

and i hope that staff doesn't just dismiss concerns, mine or others that may be expressed here, but truly stops and takes a moment to at least consider the feedback.  having community should mean things run both ways as a working relationship - i do not mean run off & change it just because a few of us might feel better for it; what i mean is to pause and try to see things from a user's POV, or users' POV, and let it become part of the equation, even if the end sum ends up being zero and no changes are made. 

//edited to add a missing apostrophe

The first person writes the TOS (or any document) often with a certain intent in mind. The next caretaker reads what is written and interprets the words for himself or herself then enforces what is written.  I just feel the TOS is a bit off, and the example in the TOS is a bad one; better none at all. Worst it indicates a record may be kept somewhere where Rendo officers write comments about users. I hope that is not the case, but if it is that folks realize the legal implications.

There was another thread where a member (Razor something) said it succinctly and wrote about keeping it simple: If an admin doesn't like something, just remove it and explain to the user why it was removed. I liked that. Sorry I don't remember where.

Pretty much, though, you and I are in agreement Ambient Shade. 

Moreover, if you are granted access to play in someone's sandbox I do tend to think the owner of the sandbox has the right to create the terms of engagement, and if you don't like them you should accept that you can play or start your own sandbox elsewhere and not complain about it.

I was commenting more on the potential legal ramifications on what was written (it seemed awfully casual) since TOS has all those legal types of things in it like about what courts in what state will hear disputes. It would be bad if a member were written up by Rendo casually or haphazardly and that was then interpreted later perhaps by a court as being more insidious than it really was, say just for violating TOS by calling something 'ugly.'.

Shane Wrote:
"The goal is not to sensor anyone's opinion but to foster a more friendly and productive environment for everybody."

I'm all for a more friendly and productive environment, but as was pointed out by more than one of us here, that's not what the TOS is saying, cause right now, the TOS effectively says that you can have an opinion, but if it's something another member won't like, you basically need to keep quiet.  That's not the way humans work, and therefore, such a TOS will never work.  It's not the intention that's wrong, it's the way it's worded.  I think it's a good idea to update the TOS, but it needs some rewording and clarification, otherwise it's just very dictatory the way it is now - even if that wasn't the intention.

On a more amusing note;  I see RorrKonn's not the only spell-checker kliller around here - lt's censor, not sensor!
[edited for inappropriate language]

Even though we have the right to give our opinions, it doesn't mean you are required to give your opinion, some opinions come across as disrespectful, offending, rude and not-done.

This TOS was needed because some ruined the mood in the forums, chased away gurus and the helpfull knowledge faded away with them.

I hope the educational aspect returns to these forums with the new TOS.

It's not just one person disagreeing with your opinions, sometimes it is a lot of people who think you're not adding anything to the forums other than disruption and arguments.

It's not just one person disagreeing with your opinions, sometimes it is a lot of people who think you're not adding anything to the forums other than disruption and arguments.

This. So much this. I applaud the changes!

the part I like is the "ignore" button.  then instead of seeing various opinions, I see heads-up notices replacing approx. 40 - 60% of posts.   it speeds it up for me.

the guys I don't ignore are those who post information on how to use poser.  they are mature and judicious in dispensing opinions, if any.  they are secure in themselves so they don't feel they have to react to opinions.

Opinions are welcome, encouraged and desired ... constructive opinions. It's the manner in which it is expressed that is at issue. It needn't be mean spirited, or character judging in the process. Phrasing and presentation makes all the difference. Kindness and consideration will encourage far more participation than harshness and confrontation ...and you can say the sane opinion in either case. No censorship, just a best face reward.

A negative opinion presented in a positive way helps someone improve their work ... a negative way discourages them and makes them defensive or wanting to just leave ... that's not what any one wants, right? This is to clarify that goal.

Boni

Kumbahya and Poser uber alles: the only possible comments from now on.

If accessing the freebies (about once a month there is something interesting, stupidly not uploaded on ShareCG) was allowed for people not logged in, I would immediately close my account. As it is, I will exercise my willpower in not even looking at Renderosity forums. Enjoy the political correct land, I prefer the real world.

It's very strange that asking for common courtesy and kindness is considered offensive to some. Sad to see that. Frankly the bottom line to the new guidelines are simply that. Needing rules to enforce common courtesy. Honestly. It is sad to see. 

Boni

trolling ? what does it mean? Defending your non-mainstream opinion?

No, your opinion counts ... contradictory opinions are part of discussions ... we just would like everyone to not be adversarial in your wording. Diplomacy goes a long way in encouraging people to consider opposing views. A kind word has changed my opinion on issues on different conversations.

Boni

Who got the short straw? Inquiring minds want to know.

Random thoughts..............

A new TOS is fine and dandy, but the chances of a TOS correcting things is slim to none. Actually, it is far less unfortunately. 

Negative opinions in a positive way is an oxymoron. Not everyone will see it that way. 

When it comes to someones work, if you start out with "it would be better if" you have basically already insulted their work right off the bat. That would not be how I would word it, or want it worded to me. How far do you think you would have gotten with any Renascence Master if you started off like that. My guess is a public stoning by the powers that thought they were would be in order. Now if they ask for your opinion, then it does not really matter does it. Tell them what you think and see if the post is still there tomorrow.

What this forum needs is simple. People need to agree to disagree. But, that wont happen because it has been let go for so long that it is second nature for some people to just ruffle everything they come in contact with. If a thread gets out of hand consider the source because it is not always the guests that say things they shouldn't, that seems to come from both sides of the fence.

Guest's can't do anything about that other than scratch their heads.

Mods can delete posts, ban users, and anything else they want to do now by the TOS. Deleting Posts and banning users is part of their job,

Moderators Violating the TOS goes unpunished and has happened to me more times than I care to remember around here. This is not something new either, and if you don't know what I am referring to don't worry about it.

Feel free to delete this post because it "Kinda" violates the TOS. Feel free to delete my account because I "Kinda" pissed someone off.

Feel free to delete my account just because you have a button to do so....

Because once my account is deleted, I wont have to put up with the shit that should have never been let go in the first place.

I have moderated sites since you had to use a modem to log onto a BBS and prayed you got a connection speed that supported text...... What goes on around here really makes me scratch my head, but I also know that moderators follow rules laid out for them. If I was asked to moderate here, I would not take the job. I can't play tennis in handcuffs..... 

So who's fault is this mess in the forum? Well, it isn't the mods fault, for doing their jobs as outlined. It isn't the guests fault, no matter what there conduct is or was.

And it dam sure wasn't the TOS's fault... How to straiten this forum out is far beyond a double edged sword, it is sharp everywhere.

Granted, this is only my opinion expressed in a positive way... So if you don't see it that way, read it again knowing that.

Someone pick that mod up over there for me, they just tripped on their leg iron chain again....

Give the mods a break, they don't write the rules. They are shackled by them in more ways than you might realize..................

If you want to complain to someone do the math and figure out who that might be and the response you will get, before you even bother.

Agree to disagree.......

No forum, Mod or coordinator is perfect.  Nor are the users.  There is a measure of error here.  We are trying.  We understand the variety of cultures and belief systems that populate the forums.  We are not here to "pick" on anyone, if that is some folks fears.  We want to be fair to all, including those who disagree with these changes.  But there is a line where it no longer is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.  There is a point where it get's personal, where it gets ugly.  We are trying to avoid that point.  We are hoping that the new TOS will do that. 

Personally I have had complaints that were from some who were honestly over-sensitive because another user disagreed.  I told them as much.  This isn't a white-wash of the forums, it's just an attempt to allow opinions to be expressed without feeling that one will be vilified for doing so. (it works both ways).

Sincerely

Boni

There is a point where it get's personal, where it gets ugly.  We are trying to avoid that point. 

things went past that point about 12 months ago. Nothing was done. you had a TOS in place, that if was used, would have avoided the problems you have now. it was NOT used and things went into meltdown.

this "new" tos won't change anything unless you are going to ban users and TELL US - not this "we do not discuss member records" excuse. we don't need to know WHY.. just they have been. this will promote the trust that you are now lacking, since you will be seen to be actually doing something. not just saying empty words.

oh yes and it's BAN. you need to make some examples.  

Khai.. I understand what you are saying. But, professionally we can not give out information about other members. It is not an excuse, it is a valid reason.

Please know that the Poser staff has had a meeting recently and "change" will be seen soon.

Please keep in mind....  negativity does no one any good.

Please post in this thread if you have a question/suggestion regarding the TOS update. Any further off topic posts will be deleted.

Thanks!

No rules different than than any religious establishment !
In fact most secular religions would be speaking in tongues and shaking with joy at this.
What the hell has happened to us all over the last few years?