I believe 'DRM' stands for 'Digital Rights Management'. If it's anything like the faux pas Apple tried with the ipod, I'm concerned about the damage it can do to a budding community. Apple's audience was much bigger. Poserverse is still a niche market. I would think you'd want the opposite of closing it off. Will that drive people to Blender?

I'm not sure really what's going on. Does anybody know?

Digital Restrictions Management is the practice of imposing technological restrictions that control what users can do with digital media. When a program is designed to prevent you from copying or sharing a song, reading an ebook on another device, or playing a single-player game without an Internet connection, you are being restricted by DRM. In other words, DRM creates a damaged good; it prevents you from doing what would be possible without it. This concentrates control over production and distribution of media, giving DRM peddlers the power to carry out massive digital book burnings and conduct large scale surveillance over people's media viewing habits.

If we want to avoid a future in which our devices serve as an apparatus to monitor and control our interaction with digital media, we must fight to retain control of our media and software.

Hi @3dstories- I'll move this to the Poser forum. Thanks so much!

Why would you move it to the Poser forum?

This is about DAZ DRM. Absolutely nothing at all to do with Poser.

If anything, this belongs back in the Community Forum only for its question about how it affects Renderosity.

But that is in reference to DAZ products and Renderosity. Again, not a thing to do with Poser. Period.

The exact text of the first response above, by Lenord, is a copyright violation. I would quote it to be absolutely clear what I'm referring to but that in itself would perpetuate the copyright violation. Those exact words appear on this page,

https://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm_digital_restrictions_management

at the bottom of which is a copyright notice by the Free Software Foundation. Sorry, no offense intended, but the text jumped out at me because the FSF is the only place I've ever seen claim the R stands for Restriction. It normally stands for Rights.

Note - let me correct the violation for you. The copyright grant requires attribution. "Attribution — You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use."

The above quoted material in the first response is from The Free Software Foundation, without changes, and reproduced via this license which must be linked:

Creative Commons License

In case anyone is in the slightest confused, I am being droll here.

You're absolutely correct "bagginsbill" my post was from Defective by Design and I should have credited them however it wasn't my intent to claim it as mine just used as Information. I'm not trying to claim anything that is not mine I generally always give credit where credit is due( just check my Gallery and Forum Posts) but I will plead to being Lazy in not at least posting the link to the Quote, after reading the original Post I remembered reading about DRM and this particular item and felt it very appropriate to the matter but anyone slightly interested in DRM and what it's about need only Google(term used generically) it and find that Defective by Design article and many others, just trying to inform not Steal.

I wasn't accusing you of anything.

The thread is basically heading in the direction of a rant against copyright holders trying to protect their rights. The irony of a response that violated copyright (however unintentional or harmless) was too good to let go.

Dear Lenord, bagginsbill (Poser guru and Poser vendor) is extatic at seeing DAZ shoot itself in its feet with a 40mm grenade launcher ; users like me are less enthusiastic since DAZ moves are creating a lot of problems that could have been avoided.

What will happen? sheeple will enjoy DAZ heavier chains, everybody else will be encouraged to either go back to Poser or find free (pardon, libre) alternatives for humanoid figures. Maybe it is a coincidence but just yesterday I saw a Blender tutorial about creating mirrored Shape Keys (Blender's name for morphs).

Despite the Baggins-Bill/Leonard back and forth, I know DRM big picture, butI guess my question is what the heck is Daz doing? And how does it affect the Renderosity community, Poser, etc?

Smith Micro wants to put a Kill Switch in for Poser, but is holding off for now (thank goodness) and now Daz is looking at DRM -but I'm not sure what they mean by it. As a consumer the worst of two worlds, in my ignorance I think (IMIIT?), would be for Daz to go proprietary and Smith Micro to implement a Kill Switch. Would that leave renderosity and RDNA adrift?

Me, software with a kill switch I will not buy. Been there, done that and I can see how that will play out for Smith Micro after an initial period. Users will switch to software that doesn't have a kill switch or they will put cracked versions on things like bit Torrent or the equivalent. A DAZ DRM would make me less likely to invest in their platform, I think, as an alternative to Smith Micro. Part of Daz'z benefit, don't forget, has been access to a 'wide' community albeit in a niche market. Now they're closing a section off??

Hope, I feel this is not a Poser issue, this is a Rendo Community Issue because it involves all the graphics that support Renderosity.

Not a Daz Studio issue, this relates to DRM and DAZ3D products. This is the Daz Studio Forum.... Do I really need to explain the difference?

@ 3dstories your speculating without actual facts to draw from to arrive at a conclusion. It's like saying what is in that glass of clear liquid? could it be water... or possibly the most deadly poison known to man???

There is a lot of fear mongering over DRM. You know who else uses DRM : Youtube, via HTML5(EME) videos, which in turn has built in support in most modern browser. In fact the browser you're most likely writing your post here with, probably has built in DRM support.

Saying broadly 'I don't like DRM' is like saying I don't like sharp edge blades, there dangerous and kill people. Often the issue lies in the broader general categorisation of the subject instead of specifying the more finite and definite implementation of the DRM that didn't work well. In other words while a blade can kill in the hands of a thug, it can also save lives in the hands of a surgeon. So saying blades are all bad is too generalised to be correctly applied (Except in generalised scaremongering). While people say they hate DRM, pretty much every time you watch a youtube video or use an electronic device you are participating in DRM technology. By far the majority of software, games, browsers and even hardware devices have some form of DRM built in these days. Most people who use technology will participate and engage with some form of DRM technology almost everyday and the lengths you would need to go to totally avoid it would be extreme to say the least.

So truly about the only way to not get any DRM 'on you' is to unplug your computer (1)(2)(3)(4), DVD/Blueray player (1), TV (1) and Mobile Phone (1)(2) and throw them all in the bin. I hear the woods are nice this time of year. ;) The idea that DRM is failed idea from the past that only has a negative impact on you or that someone doesn't use DRM is actually quite out of touch with reality. Maybe let's wait and see what the Daz3D implementation of protection for their product content is before decrying it's failure or it's impact on the broader market in general.

So I gather anyone that "Hates DRM" is going to boycott the new Star Wars movies because of the Disney connection with DRM? Right? ... (1) Disney Keychest (2)

3dstories posted at 10:55AM Wed, 30 December 2015 - #4246281

Smith Micro wants to put a Kill Switch in for Poser, but is holding off for now (thank goodness) and now Daz is looking at DRM -but I'm not sure what they mean by it.

Nerd3D hinted about a "poison pill" to ensure Poser future. With poison pill people mean e.g. releasing the sources of a dying application as GPL. I have no idea if this is true, if Nerd3D was simply lying to soothe fears about SmithMicro "un-stellar" future or whatever.

I am not terribly afraid of long term future. Let's make it clear: without Poser and Studio, digital internet pornography would not exist. With such a high stake, anything is possible, even MindGeek stepping in and buying Poser/MangaStudio from SmithMicro or the whole DAZ from their japanese investors.

Lol, japanese investors...

You really need to check your sources on more than just that one chaecuna.

Try here for Daz investors: https://www.cbinsights.com/company/daz-3d-funding

Care to provide a link for any proof of Domoco investing in Daz3D at any point?

But you know, like many things. if it's repeated enough someone somewhere will believe. No matter how incorrect or fictitious the statement may be.

Razor42 posted at 11:56AM Wed, 30 December 2015 - #4246344

Lol, japanese investors...

You really need to check your sources on more than just that one chaecuna.

Try here for Daz investors: https://www.cbinsights.com/company/daz-3d-funding

Care to provide a link for any proof of Domoco investing in Daz3D at any point?

But you know, like many things. if it's repeated enough someone somewhere will believe. No matter how incorrect or fictitious the statement may be.

30 seconds of googling are sufficient to find this link; a bit of checking does wonders to prevent embarassment (aka passing for idiot ). B.t.w., it is DOCOMO, not Domoco .

DAZ has gone nuts over recent years. DAZ Install Manager was a good idea. But content is still scattered all over the place. Now they have DAZ Connect, and say it's not mandatory. Why sweat over it if you aren't required to use it?!

The DOCOMO link only shows the portfolio of docomo, that doesn't necessarily mean that they invest in DAZ, it may be a customer for business devolepment or Network, if you check the financial inverstors in DAZ you'll not find any investor outside the US.

chaecuna posted at 11:20PM Wed, 30 December 2015 - #4246346

Razor42 posted at 11:56AM Wed, 30 December 2015 - #4246344

Lol, japanese investors...

You really need to check your sources on more than just that one chaecuna.

Try here for Daz investors: https://www.cbinsights.com/company/daz-3d-funding

Care to provide a link for any proof of Domoco investing in Daz3D at any point?

But you know, like many things. if it's repeated enough someone somewhere will believe. No matter how incorrect or fictitious the statement may be.

30 seconds of googling are sufficient to find this link; a bit of checking does wonders to prevent embarassment (aka passing for idiot ). B.t.w., it is DOCOMO, not Domoco .

I'm sorry but that doesn't prove a thing, its a portfolio listing. And I'm well aware of that link, it's not the first time it's been touted as proving something. Nowhere does it state the actual interaction between the two parties. Nor the level of investment if there is any, they may have .5% stake. But really you just can't tell and you're again drawing assumptions with no evidence to support your claim...

And did you just call me an idiot?

Either way it seems more like you are off topic trolling rather than adding anything of significance...

And now please back to the topic.

Daz to go proprietary... Would that leave renderosity and RDNA adrift?

Daz Connect FAQ is here

Excerpt: Will products from stores other than Daz 3D keep working? Products from other stores will continue working the way they did prior to Daz Studio 4.9. These products do benefit from features that have been added by Daz Studio 4.9, but they cannot benefit from any of the Daz Connect specific features.

And how does it affect the Renderosity community.

In no way that I can see, Renderosity will be able to continue on its current path regardless of the implementation of Daz Connect in Daz Studio.

Back to lurking for me...

There's such a great big hullaballo about this. I wish it would just go away.

Here's the real skinny: DAZ Connect does not currently encrypt content that is not alread encrypted (initially, it encrypted everything you installed via Connect). In the future there will/may be Connect only content that will be encrypted.

That's it in a nutshell.

I think the "encrypt everything" was a mistake, more from a logistical and usability stand-point and I think they stopped doing that more because they figured out it was going to be a pain and not because there was a huge hue and cry over it (but there was, and still is and I am making no friends every time I point out that the questions they keep asking have a) already been answered or b) are ludicrous for one reason or another).

Say what you want... DAZ is still pushing forward. I'm not so sure one can they same about that other software. But... since I don't use it anymore, my opinion is only worth so much.

This is going well. @3dstories we have a long running thread here that started just like this and went in circles for weeks and ended just like this. (Sorry with the weekly top ups to keep it alive). Some people don't like change others don't care. DRM has been around for so long Daz is probably adding it at a more refined time. It was a little shaky when first introduced to say the least and did get a bit of a public backlash. Like all things mud can stick no matter how much things are improved. Daz are only worried about protecting their assets and the assets of their developers which they have the right to do and we should all respect. 3rd party content I believe will carry on as normal and the majority of what you hear from now on in on your thread will be accurate or hearsay with a dash of scaremongering to stir the pot. I wouldn't be too concerned right now.

All members please keep it clean and friendly we are all on the same team here..... Just trying to do our art.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

@bagginsbill - Renderosity forum reply notifications do not function AT ALL.

I see this in you signature. I hear ya! I am doing slightly better than you(only just) in that area for me it is hit and miss but this issue is being addressed I hope it is rectified soon.

DRM is only evil if it restricts you from using material in a way that you paid to use it. Movies handled it a lot better than Music, you can take a DVD you bought and use it on any device, what you can't do is make a copy of it. There is an added restriction that you have to buy it in a "local" market, but generally the restrictions are transparent to you - unless you want to break your license and make copies. Music on the other hand they tried to limit what device you could play it on, or have you jump through hoops to validate that you had paid for it repeatedly.

DAZ had always had DRM on their plugins - they all require a key to activate them. And they can't restrict the program to using only their content because then nobody would be able to create content even for their own use. The question with their DRM implementation, and there is no way to comment until it actually comes out, is if there are any restrictions it places that would preclude you using it in the (licensed) manner you have paid for.

Frankly I think all this discussion of DRM is overblown. My main worry about DAZ's plan was it might change how I locate my content, that has been addressed. The fact that version 4.9 still hasn't been released would seem to indicate they are still trying to work out the details so they don't have a mess on their hands at launch.

The DRM is the encryption, which we've already seen in the DS 4.9 beta - though we haven't yet seen any encrypted Daz Connect-only content.

Some thoughts about DAZ moves

First some facts.

Fact #1: On DAZ forums, DAZ officials have been buried under requests of official statements about the future evolution of the DRM scheme. In response, they officially refused to make commitments about the future.

Fact #2: In stark contrast to #1 reticence, DAZ officials are unanimously repeating that scripting and export capabilities won't be removed in future versions.

Fact #3: It appears that there are problems with some Studio tools for DRM-ed content and DAZ officials are pointing the finger at these tools not going thru established Studio APIs but trying to access directly the DUFs. The fix indicated is to update those tools to be "well behaved", read always go thru Studio APIs.

Let's see what we can get out of those facts.

When do you refuse to make written (i.e. legally binding) statements about something? when you already know that things will change and, needless to remark, not to customers advantage. Conclusion #1: Something more aggravating than the current DRM scheme is already scheduled to be implemented.

With scripting and export still available, the current encryption scheme is as watertight as the Toll Booth in the middle of nowhere in Blazing Saddles. Conclusion #2: Either everybody in DAZ is suffering from lead induced dementia or there is something else, not yet in place, that will build a long, strong and high wall on the sides of that Toll Booth.

DAZ officials are adamant that everything has to go thru Studio engine code. This means that Studio engine code has to be in control of everything.

Let's put all together: something worse is planned, this something has to prevent the trivial export/reimport of content and will be buried within Studio engine.

What can this "thing" be? I initially thought that DAZ would move to a browser-based cloud architecture but this theory is eliminated by DAZ insistence of using Studio APIs (if you go browser, Studio will become obsolete and whether people use APIs or not is irrelevant) so we derive that Studio will remain around, central in DAZ architecture.

The only thing that matches all the observed information is an evolution of DAZ_Connect that monitors your activity and, whenever you load a scene, you load content, you export content, you run scripts, it phones home to check whether you are allowed to do what you are trying to do. Checking might happen irregularly but still sometimes it will have to take place.

Let's examine the consequences of using DAZ Studio, Big Brother Edition:

Consequence #1: your computer has to be online. No ifs, not buts, regardless whether Studio checks every time or randomly, when it tries to go out it has to be able to do so. You are disconnected? phone line troubles? bad WiFi connectivity? sorry, game over. Oh, I was forgetting: when now DAZ cloud services tell you that the forum is offline, you do something else, in our case, you can close Studio and wait for DAZ to come back online. Enjoy your non-use of the content you bought.

Consequence #2: you are leaking telemetries on the content of your scenes, of your activity schedule and location, to everybody, from DAZ to hackers to law enforcement. Telemetries are never a good thing (it is not a coincidence that the first thing Windows 10 users do is to go thru all of them and turning them off). In this case, you cannot turn them off. Since we all perfectly know that is the most common usage of Poser/Studio, I hope that you are confortable with this kind of monitoring on your "art making". Should you belong to the limited category of users who can boast about their work in public, forget about doing confidential work for some party (e.g. legal presentations) with this continous leakage of information.

Consequence #3: related to #2. DAZ become a merry repository of information about questionable practices. The words "Ashley Madison" evoke anything ?

Consequence #4: monitor DAZ_Connect communications for the moment you are buying thru it content. Credit card infos are always yummy and, in this case, you have to trust DAZ programmers of having put into operation a secure communication path.

Now DAZ representatives and vendors will step in and try to dismiss what I have written. Weight their words remembering that their paycheck depends on DAZ management.

What LPR001 said. No sense getting ourselves all riled up before we even know what's going to happen.

Laurie

chaecuna posted at 4:14PM Tue, 05 January 2016 - #4247289

Fact #1: On DAZ forums, DAZ officials have been buried under requests of official statements about the future evolution of the DRM scheme. In response, they officially refused to make commitments about the future.

Not a fact - numerous Daz people have said that existing content that is available through DIM will not become Connect only, and will not be encrytped when installed via Connect. I'd have to check the very long thread to be sure exactly what else has been said, but I'm pretty sure there have been a lot of "no plans" which means .. no plans for various fearsome things that have been suggested.

Fact #3: It appears that there are problems with some Studio tools for DRM-ed content and DAZ officials are pointing the finger at these tools not going thru established Studio APIs but trying to access directly the DUFs. The fix indicated is to update those tools to be "well behaved", read always go thru Studio APIs.

Since some files will be encrypted, once we have Connect-only content, anything that relies on parsing a file will fail with that content. Accessing the same information from a loaded item will not be a problem. So the suggestion is that utilities that need to read and modify settings should do the latter, not the former.

When do you refuse to make written (i.e. legally binding) statements about something? when you already know that things will change and, needless to remark, not to customers advantage. Conclusion #1: Something more aggravating than the current DRM scheme is already scheduled to be implemented.

or, to the limited extent that you are correct in your premise, that they don't want to offer hostages to fortune in case they do ned to make a change that would, or could be interpreted as, reneging on a promise - which would not be limited to doing the plumb opposite.

With scripting and export still available, the current encryption scheme is as watertight as the Toll Booth in the middle of nowhere in Blazing Saddles. Conclusion #2: Either everybody in DAZ is suffering from lead induced dementia or there is something else, not yet in place, that will build a long, strong and high wall on the sides of that Toll Booth.

Again, your premise is somewhat false - export formats all involve loss of DS-specific features so are no thread, and while scripting can scrape a lot of the data and might be used to write a pseudo exporter it would be a) a lot of work and b) slow. Daz is not claiming that encryption will be an absolute barrier, merely that it will be a limited check on infringement. Therefore your conclusion is invalid - nothing of the sort is planned (this has been covered), nor is it a necessary consequence of the actual facts.

DAZ officials are adamant that everything has to go thru Studio engine code. This means that Studio engine code has to be in control of everything.

I'm not sure adamant is true - but yes, it has been advised that anything that needs to get data should get it via scripting (or plug-in) API. However, that is because of the encryption, not because of some special feature of the API.

Let's put all together: something worse is planned, this something has to prevent the trivial export/reimport of content and will be buried within Studio engine.

What can this "thing" be? I initially thought that DAZ would move to a browser-based cloud architecture but this theory is eliminated by DAZ insistence of using Studio APIs (if you go browser, Studio will become obsolete and whether people use APIs or not is irrelevant) so we derive that Studio will remain around, central in DAZ architecture.

The only thing that matches all the observed information is an evolution of DAZ_Connect that monitors your activity and, whenever you load a scene, you load content, you export content, you run scripts, it phones home to check whether you are allowed to do what you are trying to do. Checking might happen irregularly but still sometimes it will have to take place.

It has been said, I'm pretty sure, that there is no phone-home system planned - and care was taken in the design of daz Connect to minimise the amount of phoning home required (no need to reactivate after a reinstall of the OS, for example). Your deduction would require that they be planning what they have said they are not planning, and working in the opposite direction to the one in which they have gone.

Let's examine the consequences of using DAZ Studio, Big Brother Edition:

Consequence #1: your computer has to be online. No ifs, not buts, regardless whether Studio checks every time or randomly, when it tries to go out it has to be able to do so. You are disconnected? phone line troubles? bad WiFi connectivity? sorry, game over. Oh, I was forgetting: when now DAZ cloud services tell you that the forum is offline, you do something else, in our case, you can close Studio and wait for DAZ to come back online. Enjoy your non-use of the content you bought.

This has been denied, explicitly, by - as I recall - several Daz people.

Consequence #2: you are leaking telemetries on the content of your scenes, of your activity schedule and location, to everybody, from DAZ to hackers to law enforcement. Telemetries are never a good thing (it is not a coincidence that the first thing Windows 10 users do is to go thru all of them and turning them off). In this case, you cannot turn them off. Since we all perfectly know that is the most common usage of Poser/Studio, I hope that you are confortable with this kind of monitoring on your "art making". Should you belong to the limited category of users who can boast about their work in public, forget about doing confidential work for some party (e.g. legal presentations) with this continous leakage of information.

This too has been denied explicitly. The shop tab of Smart Content was set up in such a way as to avoid sending user data back to Daz because they didn't want to pry. Again, your inference requires Daz to be have planned what they say they have not planned and to be working in the opposite direction to that in which they have worked.

The rest of your conclusions build on these conclusions and so can be dismissed out of hand.

chaecuna posted at 1:43PM Wed, 06 January 2016 - #4247289

What can this "thing" be? I initially thought that DAZ would move to a browser-based cloud architecture but this theory is eliminated by DAZ insistence of using Studio APIs (if you go browser, Studio will become obsolete and whether people use APIs or not is irrelevant) so we derive that Studio will remain around, central in DAZ architecture.

Now DAZ representatives and vendors will step in and try to dismiss what I have written. Weight their words remembering that their paycheck depends on DAZ management.

Lol

chaecuna posted:

To me, the story stinks every day more of a ruse to push down the users throats (or UP another "channel") the use of DAZ Connect which is nothing but the first step towards a cloud-only "solution" (b.t.w., since it autonomously "suggests" products examining your scene, it is already a push technology and not just a pull one, as the DAZ guys still pretend it to be). The conclusion that a cloud-only architecture is DAZ final objective is becoming every day more inescapable."

and

The continued DAZ indifference to those pointing out that the DRM scheme is leaky is a dead giveaway that DAZ sees no need for a strong DRM scheme... in Studio, which can only be rationally explained by a future in which the Studio we know is a tool reserved for content developers and is as embargoed as nowadays are HD tools. For everybody outside the PAs elite, the logical final step is a super-duper Platinum club, with access to DAZ Cloud, with content and rendering capabilities, accessed with the web-based Studio version.

and

"There's no "cloud" in DS."

DAZ 3D LibrarydatacloudSKUNUMBERruntimetexturesARTISTNAMEPRODUCTNAME notice the "CLOUD" directory name. Come on, a document tagged "Evil Plans for World Domination" is what I would expect in a "Pinky and the Brain" episode, not in real life; for further info, see "freudian slip". Next time you are looking for a name of a directory that does not give away your plans use a GUID.

and

To me, the story stinks every day more of a ruse to push down the users throats (or UP another "channel") the use of DAZ Connect which is nothing but the first step towards a cloud-only "solution" (b.t.w., since it autonomously "suggests" products examining your scene, it is already a push technology and not just a pull one, as the DAZ guys still pretend it to be). The conclusion that a cloud-only architecture is DAZ final objective is becoming every day more inescapable.

and

In DAZ forums even DAZ people are openly admitting that this DRM scheme does not deter pirates and users are sloooowly starting to realize that all this stuff is just a ruse to enforce the use of DazConnect, the first step on the slippery slope (as rightly defined over there) to a cloud-only solution. Mark my words: if this DazConnect thing sticks, the real DRM, a cloud only environment, is just a few years down the road so, fight determinately against it (with the only weapon DAZ people consider, i.e. your wallet) and, in the mean time, find yourself an exit strategy. Needless to remark that DAZ PAs have to follow the party line and harshly disagree ;-).

and

As a Studio user (at least for the time being) I send my most heartfelt wishes to success to P11, Paul and Pauline. Without any kind of competition, DAZ move to the cloud nightmare will be even faster than what is already happening.

and

There are 9 just released products for Pauline in Rendo marketplace, many of them developer's oriented. For the first time, I see third party traction on SM figures. Apparently, the nightmare of a market completely monopolized by DAZ and captive in the cloud is spurring content providers to action. "The more you tighten your grip...".

and finally states:

I initially thought that DAZ would move to a browser-based cloud architecture but this theory is eliminated by DAZ...

.........