Hey everyone-

I just wanted to make you aware that I have made 2 additions to the TOS. Please view the following:

• "Disturbing the peace – at Renderosity, we will not accept any members interrupting the community with any negative comments. Here are a few examples: if a member creates a thread asking for help on something, a staff member posts a thread looking for participation say a contest and a member attacks them, this behavior will not be tolerated and a warning will be given. You may disagree with members, but if it’s in a vicious manner, it will not be acceptable."

• Additionally, offsite linking to other marketplaces are not allowed within the forum, gallery, or forum signatures. For example: Links to competing stores like Daz3d.com, RuntimeDNA.com, etc are not allowed. However, links to non-competing stores like Etsy.com or Ebay.com are acceptable.

If you'd like to see more, please view the link below. If you have any questions, please do let us know!

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/wiki/?policies&terms

Additionally, please view our new Community guidelines as well:

https://www.renderosity.com/new-guidelines-for-the-community-cms-18099

And, you'll find the TOS at the bottom the page:

The TOS says no political discussion-- which makes it very difficult to complain here, since business practices themselves are very political in nature. It also means that nobody here can vent about legal trouble that they are in (also politics) about how their taxes are too high, about financial troubles they are in (economics is political, esp. when it has anything to do with taxes, rent, or banks) or complain about political attack ads on TV/etc. One of the things I liked about the Rendo forums compared to the DAZ forums is that you COULD talk about politics.
So essentially, you're well on your way to turning the Rendo forums into the DAZ forums where anything that doesn't adhere to strict topicality (2D, 3D, marketplace, forum, gallery, and freestuff) is a moddable offense.

Also, question regarding the offsite marketplace rule: Will this apply to the sponsored sites for people on the Freestuff, as well?

I think the 'no linking' to other marketplaces is a huge mistake, both for Renderosity Artists and Staff. As a company I would encourage the opposite.. to a degree.

In the past if there was a sale at Rendo on an item an artist was interested in I'd post it at Daz or RDNA and vice versa. For the size of the community it's not like this is a big secret. Generally an artist spends time on a company forum if they like that company and if the time they spend on the forum gives them additional value in return. An artist's time and where it is spent should be considered of value to the company. By curtailing the sharing of information you lessen the value of me logging in and sitting on your site.

If this is going to be Rendo policy don't look to me freely saying as many good things about Rendo on other sites. What goes around comes around. And if the staff and management doesn't want insight to what we artists think is better, so be it. That's how a business declines. Very young and naieve IMHO. I can see a prohibition on abject shilling for other sites as being absolutely reasonable..

May I additionally suggest that if Renderosity is suddenly finding an increase in comments they don't like to see on the forums it might be that they are no longer engaging the people they want to (i.e. have turned them off)? You tend to get negative comments more frequently when people (customers/artists) are unhappy. At first they will be constructive as long as they feel someone who cares is listening. After the customers that you want to engage get tired and leave then what remains will likely be the more vocal negative outliers. I don't know if this is the problem here, but management should consider the possibility. Again, IMHO. If it is, the harder you crack down, the less valuable and more cranky the forum will become until finally even the outliers realize they are shouting into the empty wind and go away.

consumer573 posted at 10:22AM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251702

May I additionally suggest that if Renderosity is suddenly finding an increase in comments they don't like to see on the forums it might be that they are no longer engaging the people they want to (i.e. have turned them off)? You tend to get negative comments more frequently when people (customers/artists) are unhappy. At first they will be constructive as long as they feel someone who cares is listening. After the customers that you want to engage get tired and leave then what remains will likely be the more vocal negative outliers. I don't know if this is the problem here, but management should consider the possibility. Again, IMHO. If it is, the harder you crack down, the less valuable and more cranky the forum will become until finally even the outliers realize they are shouting into the empty wind and go away. QUOTE

I am not sure on the TOS changes and will keep an open mind until I see how they are applied.

Personally, I only really use the Poser, Community and Prime forum and as the Poser forum is the most popular of those that is what is use to judge the value of the forums here. One of the side effects of the endless arguments that appeared in the past is that a lot of users just gave up trying to find the useful information buried in all the arguments. The end result is that a lot of people stopped coming here for help and those that were willing to help stopped because their efforts were, to some degree wasted. As I said a personal view but a lot will agree that the Poser forum is not what it used to be even if they do not agree with my reasons.

Something needs to change so I see it as a positive move that changes are being put in place, now it is a question to see if the rules can be applied fairly, consistently and with a degree of common sense. Other forums can do it and Rendo have enough skilled staff to be able to do it, so the question is whether the will is there. At the moment it looks like it might be, I wish them well.

it seems to me that a certain kind of feedback is essential to growth in anything. how can things be improved if the only views that are offered up are only those that will be perceived as purely positive? logic tells me that to come at things from that perspective could mean working out true issues takes far longer than necessary because issues were not met head on or directly. in that interim, more of the community walks away...

hopefully everyone will find an eventual, realistic balance :))

quick question:

"You may disagree with members, but if it’s in a vicious manner, it will not be acceptable..."

it seems to me to be pretty straightforward a thing, that sentence above, and surely we are all adult enough to be able to determine exactly what the word 'vicious' is, and can tell whenst a comment/post is intended as such.... but what if certain people are just way too overly sensitive and cannot tell the difference betwixt constructively intended words vs. true venom? what then?

Here's the thing : I'm not saying you can't say how you feel, express yourselves and state your opinion. However, there's a difference between stating your opinion in a negative, rude or hurtful manner, which is what I/we won't tolerate. Again, please don't take this as "you can no longer voice your opinion whatsoever." I'd just like you guys to be more aware of how your comments come off to others. And, I realize that you of you are VERY passionate and creative, so I'm NOT taking that away from you.

I do understand that in the past things weren't taken care of as they should have been, BUT, things are changing. I am choosing to move forward instead of backwards Please have faith/hope that we can turn this community around! I am very excited for the future of Rendo and hope you are too!

Giana posted at 3:50PM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251749

" it seems to me that a certain kind of feedback is essential to growth in anything. how can things be improved if the only views that are offered up are only those that will be perceived as purely positive? logic tells me that to come at things from that perspective could mean working out true issues takes far longer than necessary because issues were not met head on or directly. in that interim, more of the community walks away...

hopefully everyone will find an eventual, realistic balance :))

quick question:

"You may disagree with members, but if it’s in a vicious manner, it will not be acceptable..."

it seems to me to be pretty straightforward a thing, that sentence above, and surely we are all adult enough to be able to determine exactly what the word 'vicious' is, and can tell whenst a comment/post is intended as such.... but what if certain people are just way too overly sensitive and cannot tell the difference betwixt constructively intended words vs. true venom? what then?"

I understand your concerns and there is little I would disagree with in your comments. The most important part however is the words you use "surely we are all adult enough" well sadly this does not appear to be the case. Just look in the Poser forum and you will see some very 'non adult' behavior in some of the threads. Strange point is that often the very same people, but often with different names, behave very differently in other forums, where they have the conversations along the lines that you have set out.

I honestly think the forums can be turned around but it is not going to happen today or tomorrow, not even next month, as it has slipped quite a long way. You have to start somewhere and at least some have taken it on board to make a start and they have done so after some very negative comments in the forums. Debate is rarely wrong and most the time informative but when it gets personal the argument is lost and the debate ceases to be worthwhile.

It all comes down to the application. If applied properly it could be beneficial but if used as a tool to remove unwanted criticism then it is negative. While I am not an optimist I agree we will have to wait and see.

honestly? i feel as if there have been very mixed messages from posts by staff and through messages from staff... i was told that the idea of 'if you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything' is a part of this latest TOS update, but am now being told that i can still express my opinions and disagree. might seem like i'm splitting hairs, but whenst i'm told that something i said in a forum was hurtful and negative even though i expressly posted in my comment, both at the start and then at the end that that was not my intent, i find it all a little, um... i'll choose the word confusing... [shrug]

as i said above, hopefully a true balance can be found here on this site... :)

time will out...

oh, and yes... these days i'm screenshooting/documenting everything surrounding these issues...

and no, i'm not sharing it, just covering my own arse :)

Giana posted at 5:04PM Thu, 28 January 2016 - #4251768

honestly? i feel as if there have been very mixed messages from posts by staff and through messages from staff... i was told that the idea of 'if you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything' is a part of this latest TOS update, but am now being told that i can still express my opinions and disagree. might seem like i'm splitting hairs, but whenst i'm told that something i said in a forum was hurtful and negative even though i expressly posted in my comment, both at the start and then at the end that that was not my intent, i find it all a little, um... i'll choose the word confusing... [shrug]

as i said above, hopefully a true balance can be found here on this site... :)

time will out...

Sadly, I was "warned" for expressing negative comments, while still completely within the terms of the TOS, (to say nothing of the bending of those same rules by the OP) I guess my negativity was also taken as "disturbing the peace." So for the sake of the "community", there will be no further interaction from me here. good luck to you all.

I am immediately less interested in this site because of the prohibition on linking to other marketplaces.

Yup sure is confusing. Also did not say I disagreed. Just that I thought it remains to be seen, the same as Hornet. We are not blind. I do not currently use the poser forum but for a while I was using the prim forums. While there I was insulted "indirectly" by a member and a vendor. Thankfully I thought better than an immediate counter attack. I did express myself directly without encouraging more confrontational messages. The vendors simple, I will never knowingly purchase from her again.

Hi guys!

I wanted to clear up some stuff as well:

"I am immediately less interested in this site because of the prohibition on linking to other marketplaces." - This was something we always have done. It was included within the commercial images/links. It was asked to make it a bit clearer as it could be confusing. So this is nothing new.

The new TOS is censoring me - That is not the case at all! Like Giana stated above the Poser forum is not always that friendly and we have been working on that very much. Although it may not seem like it, WE ARE. By stating negative comments within the TOS it helps against those that purposely derail and troll the forums. We are looking for a positive community not one that scares people away. Yes, you can disagree but it should be respectful.

Hope this helps a bit! :)

Why were my questions never answered?

IceEmpress:

I'm sorry I missed your question.

Those are involved in the link exchange. Those are excepted since they are within the link exchange program.

IceEmpress posted at 10:10AM Fri, 29 January 2016 - #4251671

The TOS says no political discussion-- which makes it very difficult to complain here, since business practices themselves are very political in nature. It also means that nobody here can vent about legal trouble that they are in (also politics) about how their taxes are too high, about financial troubles they are in (economics is political, esp. when it has anything to do with taxes, rent, or banks) or complain about political attack ads on TV/etc. One of the things I liked about the Rendo forums compared to the DAZ forums is that you COULD talk about politics.
So essentially, you're well on your way to turning the Rendo forums into the DAZ forums where anything that doesn't adhere to strict topicality (2D, 3D, marketplace, forum, gallery, and freestuff) is a moddable offense.

Also, question regarding the offsite marketplace rule: Will this apply to the sponsored sites for people on the Freestuff, as well?

Also: Unfortunately, these discussions tend to get out-of-hand and I'd rather not see someone get insulted or be personally attacked for believing in something someone else doesn't. Most times, it turns into a heated debate where someone calls someone else a name and so, we thought it would be best to stay away from that sort of thing.

KimberlyC posted at 2:59AM Sat, 30 January 2016 - #4251784

" Hi guys!

I wanted to clear up some stuff as well:

"I am immediately less interested in this site because of the prohibition on linking to other marketplaces." - This was something we always have done. It was included within the commercial images/links. It was asked to make it a bit clearer as it could be confusing. So this is nothing new. "

Hope this helps a bit! :)

I am sorry your company feels that way and is now choosing to dig it in in black and white. I never knew this prohibition existed and have frequently linked to other sites when writing here and elsewhere whenever I thought it was helpful. Poser belongs to Smith Micro, and is on another marketplace site. As are the Daz and Carrara programs. Renderosity does not have any such programs of their own and is dependent on artists and customers coming to them from those sites. You have a cross-over on artists with Daz and RDNA and Content Paradise and many others. This is all part of the community you are saying you want your company to be a part of. I did not originally find Renderosity until AFTER I had found Daz and Content Paradise. I came to you through them, and ultimately anchored to you as my favorite 3D site when Smith Micro revolutionized Content Paradise. To some extent you are dependent on them and cannot succeed if you cut yourselves off.

I've offered you my thoughts in three posts above and reiterate that I think this new addition to TOS, this prohibition on linking to other sites and market places is flat out wrong. I will not be hurting your efforts on your Poser threads -ever- that would be something bad for the community, but I will not be participating to help your version grow as long as that aspect is in place. You've lost me. I feel you do not see the big picture of our 3D community. Good luck, Peace be with you all.

Yeah, sorry Rendo. I'll be spending less money here. It's getting a bit too totalitarian for me. I know full well what 'Disturbing the Peace" means. It means critiques get pulled, both in the forums and especially in product reviews. Heck, I can't even help a fellow artist here anymore because pointing to offsite resources will now get me banned. It looks like I may be pulling down my gallery again. This place is no longer enjoyable.

Yeah, these rules basically destroy the community, as people can no longer link to tutorials on commercial sites or discuss personal problems that involve money including medical problems or legal trouble (talking about something even as minor as a parking ticket) You're basically well on your way (more than half way there) to turning the Rendo forums into the DAZ forums, where there is no sense of community whatsoever there-- except in whatever incarnation of a SINGLE off-topic thread in The Commons is, and who wants to tread through that?

To respond to your statement that we're going to "lose the community sense," it's not going to happen because as I mentioned previously, I'm NOT taking away your right to speak your mind, so please don't misconstrue my words. I'm simply saying I want us to move into a more positive environment and putting each other down is NOT okay. How is it right to personally attack someone?

And, @Madbat - I'm really sorry you feel that way. This positive direction we're moving toward will do us all good!

Instead of bashing people, software, etc, I'd like you to say something uplifting someone. There's enough hate in the world. Why do we also need to bring it to Renderosity? Would you want to walk into a store and criticize the store owners for changing their policies? Know where that would get you? Kicked out, but that doesn't happen here right off the bat, but you best believe it would there. Do you see where I'm coming from?

h&l, censorship is not a positive direction. I'd explain my point, but you'll ban me for negativity, so this is my last post.

If a store I shop at changes it's policies in a way I don't like, they I ban them. I'm the one spending money. They need my money. If I don't like them, they can't have my money. It's really kinda simple. If I don't like your policies, you can't have my money. You loose. If you ban me, you can't have my money, you loose. So either way, you're not getting my money. I can buy Poser Pro 11 at several other places, I can buy content at other vendors or make my own. I have the means, and I'll save a ton of money I'll spend elsewhere, on other things.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

To respond to your statement that we're going to "lose the community sense," it's not going to happen because as I mentioned previously, I'm NOT taking away your right to speak your mind, so please don't misconstrue my words. I'm simply saying I want us to move into a more positive environment and putting each other down is NOT okay. How is it right to personally attack someone?

I never said anything about personal attacks. I am talking about the prohibition of political or religious talk, which is very far reaching, esp. if you want to take preventative measures in the style of the anti-DRM thread. You also need to have clearly defined lines of what constitutes political talk-- which would unfortunately require a very broad and sweeping definition in order to avoid confusion. For example, most would consider complaints about lobbyists to be political speech. Fewer would consider talk about economic recession to be political speech, but the fact of the matter is that it is, and even if you disagree with me, the fact is that the subject is likely to progress into what you do consider to be political speech. That is just one example. A thread about a forumite's economic or legal woes also poses a fair risk of becoming political.

IceEmpress posted at 1:10PM Sun, 07 February 2016 - #4252999

To respond to your statement that we're going to "lose the community sense," it's not going to happen because as I mentioned previously, I'm NOT taking away your right to speak your mind, so please don't misconstrue my words. I'm simply saying I want us to move into a more positive environment and putting each other down is NOT okay. How is it right to personally attack someone?

I never said anything about personal attacks. I am talking about the prohibition of political or religious talk, which is very far reaching, esp. if you want to take preventative measures in the style of the anti-DRM thread. You also need to have clearly defined lines of what constitutes political talk-- which would unfortunately require a very broad and sweeping definition in order to avoid confusion. For example, most would consider complaints about lobbyists to be political speech. Fewer would consider talk about economic recession to be political speech, but the fact of the matter is that it is, and even if you disagree with me, the fact is that the subject is likely to progress into what you do consider to be political speech. That is just one example. A thread about a forumite's economic or legal woes also poses a fair risk of becoming political.

I have to agree with you and say that there should be the ability to be honest and if you see something as negative you should be able to say so. From what I have read here this is accepted. What makes it difficult is that, in the past, there have been the request from mods requesting people not to be negative which I don't think is helpful. If someone says they think the latest update to a piece of software is poor they should have the right to say so, not only that, but I want to know their views Others may well disagree but at least people can look at both positive and negative comments and make up their own mind. Clearly something like this would still be allowed under these changes.

As to politics and religion, well, like many I suspect, I come to the Poser forum because I am interested in Poser, and I come to Rendo because I am interested in 3D art. If I want to look for political comment the Internet is certainly not short of places to visit. On the other hand religion is always a very difficult area and very personal. While I will happily respect other people religions I also understand it is very easy to upset someone, even when there is no intent to do so. Which again means I cannot see why this must be a subject in the forums at Rendo.

Having said all that, the subject is clearly not black and white so the real answer to whether these new rules are good or bad can only be answered when we see how they are applied.

Has anyone considered creating a special sub-forum, even at the bottom of the very large group of sections already on the home page, with looser (if not non-existent!) moderation?

A place to discuss the things prohibited elsewhere on site. That would free up the moderators to be stricter in the main section and just point offenders to the "open" forum where we can discuss anything (except, obviously, illegal stuff!).

I've been to sites like that. Some will even lock two arguing members in there until they get it out of their system! They can argue, insult, curse, link to other commercial sites, stump for their favorite political candidates, and whatever else they like in there - and be civilized out here.

It works elsewhere, so it's worth considering it here.

Maybe.

Or not.

But if the alternative is driving people away, definitely worth considering!

We tried having a forum like that, on 3 different occasions, but it didn't work out.

So what's the point of a "community" if one can't post off site links to help out?

Off-site links are okay, just as long as it's not to a site or part of a site that sells 3D content. Which is still dumb, since a lot of the tutorials and help stuff takes place on Daz/RDNA/Hivewire forums.

wheatpenny posted at 6:12PM Mon, 08 February 2016 - #4253825

We tried having a forum like that, on 3 different occasions, but it didn't work out.

Oh well, it sounded like a fun fix.

IceEmpress posted at 6:06PM Mon, 08 February 2016 - #4253913

Off-site links are okay, just as long as it's not to a site or part of a site that sells 3D content. Which is still dumb, since a lot of the tutorials and help stuff takes place on Daz/RDNA/Hivewire forums.

Is it too much to almost link to such things, but not quite? Like stating the name of the site, the section of interest, any names and other specific directions to make it easy to find for others? Even posting the tail end of the url and stating the prefix separately? So it can still be copied and pasted, just in two steps instead of a single link?

That almost sounds like a compromise where both sides get most of what they want. I'm old... Is that still a thing in today's world?

You can post the name of the site and how to find it on that site, you just can't post a link or URL.

Im a bit suprised how it can be so difficult to understand. You can't expect Renderosity to make examples for every single thing. If you disagree with someones statement or something that Renderosity does, its doesn't necessarily mean that your view is negative, it depends on how you phrase your disagreement, if you phrase it through a personal attack on someone then its neither constructive or positive.

It should be fairly obvious that Renderosity wont encourage people to link to competitors sites, How many companies does that? Besides that and i might be wrong, but for instant if someone make a post asking for a specific item they once saw and its available on Daz3d or whatever and not Renderosity, I would be surprised to see that post get closed due to that, its not a secret that these other sites exist, but if someone make a post encouraging others to go shop elsewhere, like a commercial, of course Renderosity wont allow that and pretty sure the other sites wont like you doing that on there site either.

It's interesting that this is coming up again. Long ago, there was a "New Products" forum here at Renderosity, that allowed any member of the community to post links to products on ANY site. That forum provided VALUE to the community and encouraged lots of people to hang out here and even buy some stuff. Frequently the product on the other site required or at least complemented something in Renderosity's huge store resulting in a sale for both Renderosity and the other site. Then advertising competing sites was banned and the forum was renamed "Marketplace" or something like that, and only contained announcements about new products in the Renderosity store. Pointless. If I wanted to see what's new in the store, I'd go to the actual store (crazy, I know). That's when I gave up on the forums, though I continued buying from the store. I didn't really come back to lurking around the forums until after all the recent changes to the site and Prime membership. I've stopped buying anything, but enjoy watching a good train wreck.

It seems that Renderosity is getting desperate to turn things around, but everything you do is simply reinforcing previous missteps and adding new ones. I mourn for the future of what was once my favorite 3D site. Coupled with DAZ's foolish foray into DRM and exclusion of Poser users by most vendors, this hobby is dying fast for me.

As for the "censorship", consider that passionate complaints are a sign of a healthy community. It means the members care enough to tell you what you are doing wrong so you can serve them better and ultimately make more money, keep your jobs, etc. If the complaints stop, it isn't because everything is OK, it's because no one cares anymore. If the complaints are censored, you will simply drive away your most passionate supporters, the ones who care enough about your business to spend their time trying to help you fix problems you may not be aware of. Embrace the gift of complainers. They will help you grow your business.

As a public speaker, I always explicitly solicit negative feedback from attendees. Comments like "great job" or "loved it" won't help me grow and improve. I'm far more grateful to the guy who tells me, "Your explanation of X confused me..." or "I couldn't hear you in the back row..." because I now have something to work on to better my skills as a presenter. You should do the same with site members.

Frequently the product on the other site required or at least complemented something in Renderosity's huge store resulting in a sale for both Renderosity and the other site. Then advertising competing sites was banned and the forum was renamed "Marketplace" or something like that, and only contained announcements about new products in the Renderosity store. Pointless. If I wanted to see what's new in the store, I'd go to the actual store (crazy, I know). That's when I gave up on the forums, though I continued buying from the store. I didn't really come back to lurking around the forums until after all the recent changes to the site and Prime membership. I've stopped buying anything, but enjoy watching a good train wreck.

I don't see why you would have a go at Renderosity for this. There are nothing uncommon or weird about this. The rules that applies on Renderosity are 99.9% identical to those of other sites. On Daz3d, if you read there TOS is following the same rules, they wont allow links to other brokers either. What i don't understand is why this rule is highlighted as being a disaster on Renderosity, but with compared to for instant Daz3d, and most likely all the other sites as well, you don't mention it as being a problem?

So if we compare Renderosity and for instant Daz3d, they apply the same rules, but Daz3d aims towards DRM which Renderosity doesn't, so at least in that regard Renderosity would be a better choice for you?

As for the "censorship", consider that passionate complaints are a sign of a healthy community. It means the members care enough to tell you what you are doing wrong so you can serve them better and ultimately make more money, keep your jobs, etc. If the complaints stop, it isn't because everything is OK, it's because no one cares anymore. If the complaints are censored, you will simply drive away your most passionate supporters, the ones who care enough about your business to spend their time trying to help you fix problems you may not be aware of. Embrace the gift of complainers. They will help you grow your business.

People can complain, why is it seen as you can't? And again its no different than on other sites.

This is from Daz3d TOS for instant:

1. Criticism should be directed towards the subject or topic at hand, rather than an individual. Posts which make blanket, unreasoned criticisms - of other members, of Daz 3D, of products or applications, or of merchants and their products - may be removed in a general effort to control negativity.

2. Posts that are obviously designed to provoke, shock or anger will be removed and action taken as needed. This includes posts attempting to provoke a “site” or “app” war, the excessive use of strong language, or any content designed to create a negative emotional response.

3. Attacks towards any member, moderator, admin, or Daz Staff will not be tolerated.

So they don't allow "bad" behaviour either, but complaining in a civilized manner, is not "bad" behaviour. Its not indicated by Renderosity nor by Daz3D reading there TOS.

Again, i find it difficult to see in which regard Renderosity is so "BAD" in this regard compared to the other sites when they do exactly the same?

Renderosity decided to change there site, this might in some regards have been for the better or the worse, that is what it is and hopefully they will improve area where it didn't go as well and yes its annoying during the time its like that. For instant the tool for adding posts are a bit annoying i think, The area in which you write is to small and the tools a bit limited. But its not the end of the world, you can still make posts, add images, links etc. and people will reply to you if they have something to add. That you don't get notifications when someone replies to a post is really annoying as well, but hopefully they will fix that as well. But regardless of this, sticking to the topic at hand which is about the TOS and not the website, this simply doesn't differ a lot, if any from any of the other brokers.

redhorse posted at 10:51AM Mon, 15 February 2016 - #4255104

It's interesting that this is coming up again. Long ago, there was a "New Products" forum here at Renderosity, that allowed any member of the community to post links to products on ANY site. That forum provided VALUE to the community and encouraged lots of people to hang out here and even buy some stuff. Frequently the product on the other site required or at least complemented something in Renderosity's huge store resulting in a sale for both Renderosity and the other site. Then advertising competing sites was banned and the forum was renamed "Marketplace" or something like that, and only contained announcements about new products in the Renderosity store. Pointless. If I wanted to see what's new in the store, I'd go to the actual store (crazy, I know). That's when I gave up on the forums, though I continued buying from the store. I didn't really come back to lurking around the forums until after all the recent changes to the site and Prime membership. I've stopped buying anything, but enjoy watching a good train wreck.

It seems that Renderosity is getting desperate to turn things around, but everything you do is simply reinforcing previous missteps and adding new ones. I mourn for the future of what was once my favorite 3D site. Coupled with DAZ's foolish foray into DRM and exclusion of Poser users by most vendors, this hobby is dying fast for me.

As for the "censorship", consider that passionate complaints are a sign of a healthy community. It means the members care enough to tell you what you are doing wrong so you can serve them better and ultimately make more money, keep your jobs, etc. If the complaints stop, it isn't because everything is OK, it's because no one cares anymore. If the complaints are censored, you will simply drive away your most passionate supporters, the ones who care enough about your business to spend their time trying to help you fix problems you may not be aware of. Embrace the gift of complainers. They will help you grow your business.

As a public speaker, I always explicitly solicit negative feedback from attendees. Comments like "great job" or "loved it" won't help me grow and improve. I'm far more grateful to the guy who tells me, "Your explanation of X confused me..." or "I couldn't hear you in the back row..." because I now have something to work on to better my skills as a presenter. You should do the same with site members.

I don't see the the changes as censorship and as for negativity, well you only have to read my posts to see that negativity and complaints are definitely allowed. OK, once or twice I have been asked not to be negative but it is hard to be positive sometimes, the Prime changes being the subject the immediately springs to mind. That said, complaints are useless if no one listens and I agree with you in that, if complaints are stifled or ignored, it just goes quiet. Again Prime is a good example, most members have stop complaining and have just decided not to renew.

The point is something has to be done, the number of people that have stopped buying or deleted their account seems to continue if the forums are correct. This is just those who announce their exit, there are probably many that stay silent but just leave.

It is possible to criticise without being personal and accusing others of being idiots just because they do not agree with a particular viewpoint or use a certain software, unfortunately it takes moderators and TOS to enforce this which is a real shame.

not an earth shattering addition/post to this thread, but i do wish to say that i appreciate[d] your input on several levels, redhorse...

3D-Mobster posted at 3:28PM Mon, 15 February 2016 - #4255118

People can complain, why is it seen as you can't? And again its no different than on other sites.

not so, people cannot complain without being given a warning and in some cases, having your post removed, as was the case with myself (and my complaint was perfectly within the TOS).

as for the whole DAZ thing - that is DAZ - different store, different community, and its rules have nothing to do with renderosity.

Structure posted at 3:36PM Mon, 15 February 2016 - #4255148

3D-Mobster posted at 3:28PM Mon, 15 February 2016 - #4255118

People can complain, why is it seen as you can't? And again its no different than on other sites.

not so, people cannot complain without being given a warning and in some cases, having your post removed, as was the case with myself (and my complaint was perfectly within the TOS).

as for the whole DAZ thing - that is DAZ - different store, different community, and its rules have nothing to do with renderosity.

Well I have certainly complained in the past but then having a set of rules is one thing applying them consistently is another matter entirely, and that is just in one forum, consistency across forums seems to be totally lacking, up until now at least.

Folks- Again, we are not censoring you - just like @3D-Mobster has noted. There are sites that actually say you're unable to criticize other members in a negative or rude manner. That means, I cannot call this or that member "an idiot" for liking a particular software program. Never have I said you must be censored, so I'd appreciate it if you guys stopped thinking that.

All in all, I just want our community to be a welcoming and friendly environment that's NOT filled with hostile behavior or hate. I DO understand that you won't agree with the new changes we're making and you're entitled to your own opinion, but just know, we're always open to suggestions. However, if these 'suggestions' come off as rude, spiteful or mean, they won't be considered. Would you want someone yelling at you or speaking to you in a constructive and polite manner when suggesting ideas? Again, thank you for being part of our community!

**not so, people cannot complain without being given a warning and in some cases, having your post removed, as was the case with myself (and my complaint was perfectly within the TOS).

as for the whole DAZ thing - that is DAZ - different store, different community, and its rules have nothing to do with renderosity.**

I haven't read the post you are referring to, so not able to give my view on it, also i can't exclude that errors might have occurred in that particular case. But i have no opinion regarding that incident as i don't know the facts. Besides that its not up to me to make a judgement about it anyway, im referring to general rules stated in the TOS. But as a vendor im in regular contact with people at Renderosity and my experience from that, tells me that these are people you can talk to if you feel something is off limit or you have been treated unfair.

As Hornet3d also indicated criticism is possible since the two of us shared view on the prime deal in another thread and it haven't been closed.

That Daz3d is another store, its of course correct, but its business is within and directed towards the same customers just using another software, but a lot of the content being sold is useable in both programs. So I don't think im wrong in assuming that a lot of the users there also have an account here. So if they are used to hanging out on Daz3d and come here, its not like entering a completely new world with new rules, people etc. Which is also indicated by the similarities in the TOS, which i already pointed out is almost 100% identical to Renderosity. So i don't think its a valid argument you make, even though Daz3D is a different shop a comparison in behaviour is very much possible due to the shared users.

Besides that im yet to receive a warning for any post where i criticite Renderosity, like the chat with Hornet3d in the other post or my last post in this thread regarding the lack of functionality in the posting tools and the missing notifications. But again, I haven't read the post you are referring to that was within the TOS according to you, so have no opinion about it.

Thanks redhorse, good post!

3D-Mobster posted at 11:03PM Mon, 15 February 2016 - #4255118

I don't see why you would have a go at Renderosity for this. There are nothing uncommon or weird about this. The rules that applies on Renderosity are 99.9% identical to those of other sites.

One of the keys to running a successful business is to differentiate yourself from your competitors. Just because everyone else is doing something doesn't mean it is right or the key to success. Those who try something audacious are often rewarded handsomely. Look at how much money RedHat makes around Linux, an operating system that is available for free and may be copied and redistributed as much as you like.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the old "New Products" forum that allowed links to products on other sites provided VALUE to the community. If Renderosity wants to draw people back to the site, and especially the forums, Renderosity needs to provide something of value to us, especially if it is something the other sites don't have. Otherwise, I and others will go to the sites that we perceive as providing more value. If none of them appear to provide value, we will choose another activity entirely that provides value to us, such as spending time learning a 3D modeling package, going for a bike ride, or hanging out with friends.

It's all about alternatives. Renderosity isn't competing only with other 3D sites, Renderosity is competing with anything else we could be doing instead of hanging out on these forums or browsing the store. If they want to bring this site back to its former glory, they will need to do something audacious like broadening the scope of the forums to be more inclusive of the 3D community at large. Be open to links to other sites. Make Renderosity forums the "one stop shop" for all things 3D, whether it is sold here or not. I think you'd be surprised how effective that could be (and how effective it once was). Becoming a "walled garden" now is like fencing in a bunch of dying flowers with nothing but gasoline to water them with.

One of the keys to running a successful business is to differentiate yourself from your competitors. Just because everyone else is doing something doesn't mean it is right or the key to success. Those who try something audacious are often rewarded handsomely. Look at how much money RedHat makes around Linux, an operating system that is available for free and may be copied and redistributed as much as you like.

Agree it can have value to differentiate yourself from other, but this is not black and white meaning that you have to do it no matter what. Renderosity could also give all there products away for free, which would make all vendors angry, but would have great value for non vendor members, now this would of course never happen, but such change would ruin the site as well. And personally i have no problem with links to other sites, but i fully understand why Renderosity won't like it. Besides that people already make lots of suggestions in post to whether people have checked some of the other sites for a certain product. For instant just yesterday if you look in the poser forum, the thread called "Deadpool" someone suggested the OP to check Deviant arts and ShareCG for what he is looking for, there are no links to any product on these site, but still it help the person looking for a given item. Now that thread haven't been closed, And this is just one example. So your argument rest on the fact that the thing that "ruins" Renderosity is the lack of a link in such post, but it makes very little sense. Most people already know these other sites exists and are still being made aware of them, so they can just type it into google and they can go there and have a look. They don't need a direct link to a product on another site for it to have the same useful value for the community. If your argument rest on the fact that other members should take the effort to provide links for people unable to search these other sites them self when given the name, then i find it to be a very poor argument for why this would have such great value and im not having a go at those asking for products that they can't find, but if they truely hit a wall in there search for something when not given a direct link, i highly doubt they will be able to even buy and install the product should they find it.

As i already pointed out, Renderosity differs from for instant Daz3d in regards to DRM, is that good or bad? and do you see that as having value for there members?

That Redhat have success using there approach cant be compared to Renderosity as Redhat is opensource, where as Renderosity makes there income from vendors and Ads. How would you suggest Renderosity to convince there vendors to apply there products for free? So the Redhat business model work because they operate in another market than Renderosity does. So if you should make a reasonable comparison you would have to compare Redhat with Microsoft and don't think anyone disagree which of them have the greatest success when comparing income.

So if im not mistaken your issue with Renderosity primarily rest on the lack of members being able to make direct links to other sites? because I have mentioned other sites several times already in these replies, so that is no problem. So you problem is not with them not using DRM or not allowing bad behaviour.

If none of them appear to provide value, we will choose another activity entirely that provides value to us, such as spending time learning a 3D modeling package, going for a bike ride, or hanging out with friends.

Im sorry i dont understand, what you expect from Renderosity, its a company making money by having a community of members that shares a passion for making art, 3d, 2d, photos etc. as a service for there members they have made a forum for people to get help and a marketplace where people can buy items. And regardless of what initiatives Renderosity makes for giving values for there members, you can and should still go for a bike ride, hang out with friends or learn a 3d package if that is what you want. That doesn't mean that you can't enjoy coming here and spend some time as well. Of course Renderosity is competing with everything else, all companies does that if you take it to the extremes, but then you might as well argue that you think Renderosity should compete with whether you should go on holiday or whether you should spend your time on there forum....im sorry but it makes very little sense to me.

Another good post Redhorse, thanks!

Another good post Redhorse, thanks!

Im sorry to say it, but this is aiming towards being ridiculous, I respect and to some degree understand why people are upset, for instant, Hornet3d points of why he is a bit upset regarding the changes to the prime deal, because he makes a valid argument of why he would be. But most of the concerns posted or vented here, have nothing in that regard and it is or should be obvious to anyone reading them, that they don't.

I respect that you want to give support to Redhorse comments, if you share his view that the major problem with the "new" TOS is the lack of members being able to post direct links to other sites. But instead of simply acknowledging his post, why don't you support it with a valid argumentation to why he is correct? Because im the one arguing that this hold close to no truth whatsoever and therefore argue why this is not a major problem.

I respect that people have other opinions than me and that they disagree with Renderosity, as its hard to miss them since a lot of people are expressing there concerns regarding varies topics. Some make a good case for there concerns, like Bagginsbill regarding the lack of notifications, because it makes sense, it is very annoying that you ain't made aware. As mentioned earlier Hornet3d concerns are valid as well.

Looking through this post, its obvious that a lot people replying to this, deliberately do whatever they can to paint a picture of something that is simply not true, because any of these arguments can be prooven wrong simply by looking at the other forums and seeing that this ain't the case. Furthermore, its obvious that people "want" to misunderstand the purpose of the "TOS", because if it was the case that all these arguments that people make were true, every single post which hold any form of criticism of Renderosity would be removed, but that is not the case? There would be countless of posts on the other sites regarding the strict and harsh TOS they use, but there ain't.

That people don't find any usefulness in Renderosity is not true either, posts in Poser forum receive feedback, which help those asking. Santicor seems satisfied with the feedback he gets in his post regarding his character. The post "Deadpool" got help finding what he was looking for, so if you ask for help you will get it.

But ever wondered that people simply doesn't care to answer these posts, because they so obviously hold no truth to them? The only reason i care to do it, is because it annoys me, to see such statement being backed up by such weak argumentation.

Lots of the people replying to these posts from what i can see, are those venting at Renderosity for whatever reason and back up each others weak argumentations for no apparent reason. If you, as most of you claim loved Renderosity as it used to be and all hope for it to be closer to what it were, then the worse tactic you can do is to back up every single statement that have a go at them regardless of whether these are valid or not.

I think its fine that people express there problems with Renderosity, but at least do it when you have a solid argument for why its the case, anything else is simply ridiculous and childish.

Sorry, can't restrain my anal self after reading above thread/posts. While still learning the art and all involved, I do know the spelling and usage of "their", they're" and "there." I know it's my problem, but it IS distracting......again, my problem so I'll shut up now and go back there, where they're waiting with their flames I'm sure. Cheers.

@3D-Mobster

The trouble with some of the changes to the TOS is in their interpretive basis. Your last post in my own interpretation actually violates the TOS in a number of ways.

For example it is mainly directed at myself in a rather personalised fashion. It adds a number of barbs and negative terms including insinuations like "simply ridiculous" and "childish" and seems to primarily be focused on drawing me into some kind of argument. This is generally regarded as trolling in most circles.

My participation in this thread has been positive, brief and non disruptive. You have stated quite broadly that you have some issue with my statements and responded in a negative fashion with what could also be regarded as a number of personal attacks in your post. This would seem also to constitute Disturbing the Peace "we will not accept any members interrupting the community with any negative comments." I was going about my business and in no way breaching the TOS. Yet you felt the need to negatively attack me and attempt to draw me into some kind of circular argument that seems to mainly be focused on you summarily dismissing others concerns as irrelevant or as you put it "because they so obviously hold no truth to them?". And in turn becoming frustrated that some will not enter into an argument with yourself regarding your PoV.

If you want to continue discussing the issue feel free to do so, but I would appreciate if you left the insinuated insults out of it and respected my right to participate in the forums as I see fit within the terms of the TOS.

If you do feel the need to further divulge maybe you would care to explain why your last post isn't displaying a blatant disregard for the TOS? I know you were attacking me constructively right? In my own experience simply being involved in a heated discussion can be enough to be found on the wrong side of the TOS and it is my intention to avoid similar arguments as much as I humanly possibly can.

Re: Linking If you cannot see the issue with a community that produces content that relies on 3rd party content to function, but then prevents linking to that same 3rd party content in discussion, then that is your prerogative. As is mine to decline from entering into an argument or discussion regarding the matter.

Sincerely Razor, ;)

Sorry, can't restrain my anal self after reading above thread/posts. While still learning the art and all involved, I do know the spelling and usage of "their", they're" and "there." I know it's my problem, but it IS distracting......again, my problem so I'll shut up now and go back there, where they're waiting with their flames I'm sure. Cheers.

If you are referring to me, its ok. Im well aware that i should be more careful when using "there" and "their" its just a bad habit of using "there" where it shouldn't . But understand you point when reading my own post again :D

Also im from Denmark so english is not my first language but can understand that it would be annoying for someone for which it is.

Almost all rules, including TOS stand or fall on the way they are applied, or not in some cases here in the past. The other issue here is that many, including me are really upset at the demise of Renderosity and for me it has been a rough ride over the last few years. I have set the history out in the other 'final question' thread so I will not waste space repeating it here. Much as I am upset I would not like to see Rendo bashed just for the sake of bashing, I am not saying that it has happened here just that, where it happens it is upsetting.

Part of the reason for the new TOS is because the forums got out of hand, and in general, it was the Poser forum. To me, and many others the forum was used by some individuals to not to be helpful or informative but to try and move the market to their agenda. I still believe now that the old TOS were robust enough to have handled the situation but in many cases they were not applied and if they were, there is some suggestion it was hardly applied in a fair and consistent manner. The end result was that the responses became extremely personal and acrimonious. I see the new TOS as at least an acknowledgement from Rendo that they need to do something, in fact they are fast reaching the point that anything would be better than doing nothing. I wait, with fingers crossed, to see if the new TOS improves the situation.

I don't know if the inability to link to other sites is a major issue in general, clearly it is for some and I can see arguments for and against. I think I would make the point though that there is a lot more wrong here than the inability to link and it would be wrong to suggest that there is a really simple answer for Rendo.

I do hope they succeed in making this a community again but it is going to take a lot more work than just adding a feature here and there.

Hi Hornet, I was trying to avoid entering this discussion.

I just wanted to say that I truly appreciate your comments, they are always well worded and well thought out and always written in a reasonable tone.

I was just curious you have alluded a few times to some kind of "issue with the Poser Forums getting out of hand". I'm just curious when you think this began to happen. From my experience the Poser forums were always a little like the wild west. Have a look at this thread from 2003. You guessed it people arguing about Daz and Poser, people flaming and trolling each other. Request for the mods to not close this thread please. Name calling. All with seemingly no mod intervention.

• https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=1498465

I especially like this little gem, one member says to another "Ryamka you are an insignificant little flea whom if he spoke to me in person the way you spoke to me here that I would swat. Ex army rangers like me just love swatting bugs like you." It doesn't really seem to be an isolated thread either there are many like it over the years.

And another from 2012 full of attacks on Daz, some light hearted some quite aggressive and extremely negative:

• https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2843540&page_number=1

From that thread "Wow 2.5 hours of a Daz thread and no serious fight yet. Is that a rendo record?"

This one is a somewhat interesting read too.

An argument from 2002 discussing Daz in the Poser forum. Even Dann Farr is commenting in it, one of the founders of Daz 3D.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=791269

The funny thing I have found is some arguments I have scanned through ran for pages and pages of passionate ranting, and to be honest, I can hardly make head or tail of some of the things they're talking about. Makes you wonder if in 15 years someone will look back at these threads and think the same...

Some interesting old forum names too like Complaint & Debate Forum sounds like a real fight club lol, And something called the Virtual Tavern Forum which sounds like it would of been fun.

Anyway I will stop going OT and let the thread resume its natural er.. progression