Help needed with an annoying prop mesh!

I tried to make a navy officers's peaked cap by kit-bashing some other open source props with some I made myself.

The problem was that the white cover had an N-gon in the centre! So I deleted the N-gon and spawned a new prop.

Next I gathered all remaining vertices to a centre point where they all (should?) meet. Then I spawned a left side of the prop, mirrored it, exported hoth halves as .obj, re-imported those and then welded both halves to get a symmetrical single prop.

Thus far it all went very well, and in the previews it all looked perfect.

Later I discovered that in the white cap cover, the tris in the centre aren't WELDED! (and can't be made so with Poser's on-board tools)

For simple use (load & render), no one would notice this flaw at all I guess. But just in case someone wants to smooth the top, it will rip apart in the centre, looking like this: *1

I've tried everything to get the centre vertices welded in Poser's Grouping tool, or while exporting/importing it as a Wavefront obj.

All to no avail.

I'll attach the cap prop as an .obj file.

Hopefully some kind soul can tell me what is wrong with it, how to fix it, and maybe even upload a fixed version?

Thank you all!

K

Footnote *1: Though several of my fellow officers told me that they'd love that extra ventilation. But Navy regulations are cast in stone for all times, so no chance... XD

OK - I just noticed that I can't upload one of the most basic Poser files (.Wavefront Object) to this site dedicated to Poser... Looks a bit like if I couldn't upload .txt files to Windows native applications?!

But hey - this site uses "markdown" and supports "emojis"! This makes it all good for all of us!

Thank you Renderosity... (NOT!) Your forum is a real PITA, to be frank!

Currently I'm very tempted to move over to the HiveWire forum for good.

K

Karina check your mail :)

Done and replied :)

It's on its way

Care to share how you solved the problem @movida?

an0malaus posted at 10:03PM Tue, 28 April 2020 - #4387663

Care to share how you solved the problem @movida?

sure, I imported it into MODO and applied MODO's Mesh Cleanup which was to be my first step - it gave me "2625 face normals fixed" and I saw it weld the cap top so tried it in Poser and viola!

Tried this today, and if I make it a Poser prop everything is fine.

BUTT (tm): Whenever I export the geometry and then re-import it (both as .OBJ), the tris in the centre of the cap are missing, leaving a circular gap.

• Maybe there's a clandestine group of officers sabotageing this because they like the idea of that extra ventilation?
• Maybe it's just another Poser glitch?
• I can't tell...

I've tried all and sundry today to fix this - all to no avail.

So I guess this is either a glitch of Poser, or the base mesh is actually FUBAR.

Funny thing is that it loads fine in Poser with embedded geometry. But whenever I want to convert the embedded "customGeom" to an external geometry file, the rift reappears.

This is useless because I still have to add the chin straps, the badge, and the cockade to the original mesh in order to make this a full object.

Any suggestions welcome!

K

Karina: I just exported the fixed 1st version from Poser and reimported as an .obj - I didn't get any missing tris in the center of the cap. I'm using 11.2.272

I can re-run it through mesh cleanup and send you another? I just imported to Poser (no problem) exported as .obj and imported into MODO - no problem. Ran mesh cleanup again and sent it to you.

The problem is with the base mesh. There are several vertices that do not lie on the center line. The common point in the center of the circle is one of them, and for some reason Poser is deleting that vertex when you extract the geometry from the prop file, which is causing the big circle in the middle. This vertex is the one with the red box around it.

The other vertices, marked in green, are not perfectly centered, so they aren't getting welded either, which is causing the split.

These are changes that will have to be fixed in a modeler. The X value of those vertices should be set to 0 to ensure they are on the center axis.

Hi Deecey: wouldn't MODO have fixed that with mesh cleanup? I watched it weld the center and exported from Poser as an .obj and reimported and didn't have the problem

Mesh cleanup welds identical verts during mesh cleanup, but those verts I highlighted there may not be at true center and may not be getting welded. Is there a way I can take a look at the mesh to see if that is the case?

Edit to add: did you subdivide the mesh after you imported your corrected version? That will display the issue if the verts are not welded.

One more thing that should be mentioned. If you delete half the model, and then mirror and weld it, you will have one half of the UV information, and the part that was mirrored will overlap the UVs of the half that you mirrored FROM. Not sure if you want that. So I'll take a look at that as well.

Deecey: it's not my mesh, it was Karina's and I offered to try to fix it. I didn't sub anything or split and mirror anything. My first step was to run mesh cleanup and see what resulted. I watched it weld so tried it in Poser and it was ok. After Karina had a problem with the exported version I reimported the cleaned one, exported as .obj and re-imported to try it and didn't have a problem. Am I ok in emailing you the mesh as it's not mine - Karina emailed it to me so I don't think it'd be a problem.

Sure, check your PM

Done and answered

OK I took a look at both of the meshes (Karina's and Movida's). Neither of them had the vertices welded at the center of the cap.

So I started with Karina's mesh, and deleted the half that looks like she mirrored (the materials were appended with the number 2, so I figured that was the duplicated one.)

Then I did some geometry tweaks ... in particular there was a polygon or two missing in the hat band, and there were some unnecessary edges in the back of the hat that seemed to be doing funky things, so I removed those.

After that, I selected all of the center vertices and made sure they were at 0-coordinate (making them perfectly centered).

Then I mirrored the geometry inside Modo, and then did a Mesh Cleanup. After that I turned subdivision on, and noticed that it was subdividing kind of funny near that big circle on the top. I selected what LOOKED to be that one vertex. BUT ... Modo reported that I had 16 vertices selected. So, I joined all 16 of them into a single vertex. Hopefully now you won't get a hole in the top like before.

I HOPE I found all the errors. Yeah, that mesh was def FUBAR. If it still isn't working let me know. I emailed it back to Movida.

Thank you Deecey, lesson learned g

Sorry for not responding earlier, but I was away from home and could watch this interesting discussion from mobile only!

I've learned quite a lot from your tips, so thank you all!

I also think the base mesh is FUBAR; maybe that's why it was released as a freebie... So I decided to cut it short and made a new hat cover from one of our Poser primitives (the rounded cone). Then made some more adjustments to fit the cover to the cap body, again split the props into halves. Exported the whole bunch as another .obj Re-imported and mirrored them, and voilà: All is fine - no more rifts, everything is perfectly symmetrical!

I then added the accessories, and now it looks like this:

Still some UV mapping to do because I want different textures for the peak to make it change from a normal troup officer, to admirals (which need different textures as well as different peak lengths to accommodate the extra gold leaf... (This is also the reason why the peak isn't welded to the cap: It makes resizing easier) The side buttons and the centre cockade (the "Sniper's Target" XD) may also need some reshaping and retexturing.

As soon as this is ready for release, I'll publish it as a freebie, for you all who helped me!

Karina

.

P.S.:

I selected a contemporary German Navy cap as my prototype because I consider it has the most versatility in both shape and texturing. A Russian cap couldn't do because of the "helicopter landing deck" on top - same goes for the US Navy. But with a bit of texturing, and some morphing, this can even be made to pass as Army/Airforce caps, from WWI to present. Texture groups are included a-plenty; you can easily transform this cap to a British General's with the red band and the appropriate badge texture.

High valence vertices are nasty, ugly, headache-inducing monstrosities. When rendered or morphed they have a tendency to blow chunks all over the place, big sticky ones too. Quad caps, in comparison, are sweet, forgiving and very furry. They adore being deformed and divided. Fortunately there are many ways to turn gremlins into mogwai, and this one does not involve violence of any kind, though you may use a blender if you like.

The cap is looking good but the band above the peak has very noticeably fewer polygons than everything else. This is giving really visible facets in the render. Could you try adding some more edge loops to get more curve to that shape?

This is looking great Karina. Can't wait to see this in final mode, though it's looking pretty close now.

Oh, and I see what Caisson's talking about where the band above the peak doesn't have the same amount of polys as the rest of the cap. That should be easy enough to fix.

thank you caisson, second lesson learned :) Too bad this thread can't go on for about a year.

I absolutely agree with Miss B and movida!

The part about how to fill a round hole with quads was a revelation.

Thank you very much @Caisson!

.

Though, this is not quite finished yet :)

I replaced the shin strap with a better version, and at higher resolution too.

The cap's body (headband) was again modified slightly, everything is UV mapped now, the texture map is made (ad least for staff officers, see render).

Looks how I forgot tu UV map the small buttons for the chin strap, and also the cover needs some morphs to make it look more "used" and "individualized"...

Currently working on different peak sizes for junior officers (shorter) and admirals (longer) Also need different texture maps for these peaks.

.

"Achtung! Stillgestanden! Meldung an den Kapitaen!" .

UPDATE!

The cap is nearly finished.

I was contacted via email last week, by a former officer of the German Navy who basically told me that I've got almost everything wrong...

During our correspondence he sent me a ton of sugestions, and many photos and texture templates.

This enabled me to modify the overall shape again, while learning my latest lessons in UV mapping and applying the textures.

I sent all my attempts back to him for approval until he was satisfied :)

Here's what we have now:

A Navy Cap (Deutsche Marine) with morphs and textures for:

• Recruits/other ranks (Matrosen/Gefreiten)
• Non-commissioned officers (Maaten/Bootsmannen)
• Troop officers (Leutnant to Kapitaen-Leutnant)
• Staff officers (Korvetten-Kapitaen to Kapitaen "zur See")
• Flag officers (Admirals)

You only need to load the basic prop and can change it's style and texture anytime, according to what you need.

It will be a "smart" prop" which will parent to the head of any figure. I still need to add some fitting dials for M4/V4. But because it's a prop you can always move and scale it to fit your figure, whatever flavour.

I also added a couple of morphs because Bernd said that no Navy member wears his cap like they were supplied. Most make highly individual modifications (and highly irregular by the Navy rules too - don't report to an Admiral with any of this type of headgear...)

I'm currently attempting to bundle all the files need. If that is successful I'll post it here (Rendo) as a freebie.

K

. . . B.t.w. @ Anaomalaus:

That picture is probably a very wet Lufftwaffe officer, or a very unhappy SS officer. Navy officers didn't have silver embroideries, neither as chin strap, nor around the top of the cap. But then, there's also missing the badge with an emblem (like a death's-head and the swastika......) Sorry for nit-picking, but history is another one of my hobbies ;-)

K

That's Graeme Garden of The Goodies fame going down with the good ship "Saucy Gibbon" from the Goodies' Pirate Radio episode. All complete spoof and uproarious comedy from my formative years.

Oups!

I don't know this series, but I suppose it's something similar to "Hogan's Heroes" which I became to love when I was posted to Dorset back in 1990 and watched in on "The Beebe". Any links to download some episodes? ;-)

Here's my initial search page The Goodies full episodes and here is Radio Goodies which even has the Pirate Radio cap in the Opening clips. Still making me laugh. Tragically we lost Tim Brooke-Taylor to Covid-19 just recently

Ok, here's the final version:

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/navy-cap-german-universal/85319

I want to thank all of you who helped me in producing this prop, and for giving me helpful hints. Without you this wouldn't be here now!

And now that I know how to upload freebies here, I feel encouraged to publish more.

Take care and stay healthy!

Karina

Looks great! And it's always nice to see how other modelers tackle and resolve challenges!