I received an email this morning saying HiveWire will be closing down on January 4th 2021.A bit sad. Cheers

Damn, that's horrible news. I never really brought much from there but it seemed to have a wonderful community atmosphere, not to mention cool friendly things like receiving store credits for your birthday. That's a real shame. :(

Sure questionable things that are happening in the 3D scenes ! Daz buys RDNA so that they can shut the concurrence, CP closes down and Part of the creations end up on Rendo, Then Poser gets sold, Licences get shut down by force, a Legal edge walk and again renderosity is involved. Now he next good news Hive Wire shuts down and ends up as Part of renderosity again. All just coincidences ? I read the Forums on Hive Wire saying on how welcome they are to come at rendo. But understanding the why !? Why giving up the independence ?

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store. The various artists will either move their products to DAZ, Rendo or (gasp!) yes CG Bytes, or sell on their own vendor owned websites. A list of those website can be found in the Poser Content Directory. I will be endevoring to keep up with where everyone ends up.

Azath posted at 4:44PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406157

Sure questionable things that are happening in the 3D scenes ! Daz buys RDNA so that they can shut the concurrence, CP closes down and Part of the creations end up on Rendo, Then Poser gets sold, Licences get shut down by force, a Legal edge walk and again renderosity is involved. Now he next good news Hive Wire shuts down and ends up as Part of renderosity again. All just coincidences ? I read the Forums on Hive Wire saying on how welcome they are to come at rendo. But understanding the why !? Why giving up the independence ?

Seeing as you have such a bug up your arse about Renderosity, I'm surprised you can lower yourself to post here. Why not tell your conspiracy theories to someone who cares instead?

It is absolutely their business and no one else's why they're closing, and those in the know who need to know, know. We will continue to enjoy the forums, and most products will either come here, or to other stores. Development of Dawn 2.0 and Dusk 2.0 will continue.

If the (privately) owned business announces they will close their store, then I wish them much success and happiness in whatever they decide to do, rejoice that they are working on finding homes for the vendors who vended there, and unless they make a public announcements of the reasons, I keep my nose out of their business, because I don't want anyone else to start digging in mine either.

EClark1894 posted at 5:34PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406158

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store.

Well, that's good. I really like what I've seen of Dawn 2 so far.

It's probably for the best. I hate shopping at Hivewire, FWIW, and it would be a lot more convenient if their products were sold here instead. If only so I can keep track of what I've already purchased.

randym77 posted at 6:55PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406163

EClark1894 posted at 5:34PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406158

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store.

Well, that's good. I really like what I've seen of Dawn 2 so far.

It's probably for the best. I hate shopping at Hivewire, FWIW, and it would be a lot more convenient if their products were sold here instead. If only so I can keep track of what I've already purchased.

Hivewire DOES keep track of what you've already purchased.

EClark1894 posted at 7:09PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406165

randym77 posted at 6:55PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406163

EClark1894 posted at 5:34PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406158

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store.

Well, that's good. I really like what I've seen of Dawn 2 so far.

It's probably for the best. I hate shopping at Hivewire, FWIW, and it would be a lot more convenient if their products were sold here instead. If only so I can keep track of what I've already purchased.

Hivewire DOES keep track of what you've already purchased.

I know that, but if something is for sale both here and there, you could end up buying it twice.

I find Hivewire difficult to search. There's no way to search your purchases, at least that I've ever found. Both Rosity and DAZ let you do that. Rosity and DAZ also let you search for Poser products only, but Hivewire mixes DS and Poser stuff, and you can't separate them.

randym77 posted at 8:59PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406167

EClark1894 posted at 7:09PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406165

randym77 posted at 6:55PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406163

EClark1894 posted at 5:34PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406158

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store.

Well, that's good. I really like what I've seen of Dawn 2 so far.

It's probably for the best. I hate shopping at Hivewire, FWIW, and it would be a lot more convenient if their products were sold here instead. If only so I can keep track of what I've already purchased.

Hivewire DOES keep track of what you've already purchased.

I know that, but if something is for sale both here and there, you could end up buying it twice.

I find Hivewire difficult to search. There's no way to search your purchases, at least that I've ever found. Both Rosity and DAZ let you do that. Rosity and DAZ also let you search for Poser products only, but Hivewire mixes DS and Poser stuff, and you can't separate them.

I must be missing something. Hivewire tells me when I've bought something I'm looking at or not, and I can check my downloadable products list to see what I already have.

EClark1894 posted at 9:03PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406176

randym77 posted at 8:59PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406167

EClark1894 posted at 7:09PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406165

randym77 posted at 6:55PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406163

EClark1894 posted at 5:34PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406158

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store.

Well, that's good. I really like what I've seen of Dawn 2 so far.

It's probably for the best. I hate shopping at Hivewire, FWIW, and it would be a lot more convenient if their products were sold here instead. If only so I can keep track of what I've already purchased.

Hivewire DOES keep track of what you've already purchased.

I know that, but if something is for sale both here and there, you could end up buying it twice.

I find Hivewire difficult to search. There's no way to search your purchases, at least that I've ever found. Both Rosity and DAZ let you do that. Rosity and DAZ also let you search for Poser products only, but Hivewire mixes DS and Poser stuff, and you can't separate them.

I must be missing something. Hivewire tells me when I've bought something I'm looking at or not, and I can check my downloadable products list to see what I already have.

I can do that, too, but if I bought something at Hivewire, I don't always remember it, and if I see it for sale here at Rosity, I might buy it again.

I can certainly check my downloadable products, but if you've bought hundreds or thousands of items, searching your product list is a pain if there's no search function (which DAZ and Rosity both have - you can search within your purchases).

This is especially difficult when items change stores. Like when PoserPros and RDNA closed, and when Hivewire stopped selling items that that didn't support their figures. A lot of items moved to new stores then. And a lot of things that used to be at DAZ are now at Hivewire.

The various artists will either move their products to DAZ, Rendo or >(gasp!) yes CG Bytes, or sell on their own vendor >owned websites.

Many HW vendors have already been selling thier products in Iclone native formats at the Reallusion store as well, according one of the official announcments.

Dawn,Dusk,baby Luna and the HW gorilla ship with CC3 pipeline and of course us CC3 pipeline users can harvest our entire Daz content libraries ,for use in Iclone via, the auto transfer and re-weighting tools.

Not that any of this matters to me personally as I create my own Clothing and props for Iclone/CC3 using Blender for rendering.

randym77 posted at 5:57AM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406163

EClark1894 posted at 5:34PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406158

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store.

Well, that's good. I really like what I've seen of Dawn 2 so far.

It's probably for the best. I hate shopping at Hivewire, FWIW, and it would be a lot more convenient if their products were sold here instead. If only so I can keep track of what I've already purchased.

Who is this Dawn 2? I don't think I've seen or heard anything about it.

SamTherapy posted at 6:22AM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406194

randym77 posted at 5:57AM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406163

EClark1894 posted at 5:34PM Tue, 01 December 2020 - #4406158

For what it's worth and clarification's sake, I remind you that I don't know anymore than you lot. However, ONLY the actual store will be shutting down and closing. The Forum and the products will continue. The Hivewire products will be sold through the Rendo store.

Well, that's good. I really like what I've seen of Dawn 2 so far.

It's probably for the best. I hate shopping at Hivewire, FWIW, and it would be a lot more convenient if their products were sold here instead. If only so I can keep track of what I've already purchased.

Who is this Dawn 2? I don't think I've seen or heard anything about it.

Chris Creek, over at Hivewire is currently making a version 2 of the Dawn and Dusk figures.

SamTherapy posted at 6:47AM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406194

Who is this Dawn 2? I don't think I've seen or heard anything about it.

There's a thread about her at Hivewire, and some renders have been posted in various threads here. She's the new and reportedly vastly improved Dawn. There will be a Dusk 2 as well. And more animals. They'll just be sold here, not at Hivewire.

The Dawn 2 renders (in the Show Me the Honey forum at Hivewire) look really good. Not least because she doesn't have the original Dawn's sharply angular face, which was hard to morph.

@ randym77: Hivewire instituted a method like DAZ3d, on your login, when you browse the store, all items that you purchased will exhibit an icon indicating that you own it. Takes out the guess work.

hborre posted at 7:54AM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406202

@ randym77: Hivewire instituted a method like DAZ3d, on your login, when you browse the store, all items that you purchased will exhibit an icon indicating that you own it. Takes out the guess work.

I know that. Obviously, I'm not explaining this well.

My problem is twofold. One, I shop at multiple stores, and some products are for sale at more than one store, or have moved from one store to another. Two, you can't search your purchases at Hivewire.

If I see something here at Rosity, it will tell me that I already bought it if I bought it here, but not if I already bought it at Hivewire. I have to check my purchases at Hivewire. Now, if the page for the product still exists, I could find that page and see if the "you own this" logo is there. But it might not be at Hivewire any more, so I have to search my purchased items. Rosity and DAZ offer the ability to search your purchases by keyword (and vendor, here at Rosity), which makes it really convenient to figure out if you bought something there, and to re-download it if you need to.

With Hivewire, it's really difficult. Because you have to scroll through page after page, searching for keywords using your browser. Just finding an item you purchased awhile back to re-download it is a pain there, but really easy at DAZ and Rosity.

I always keep a Txt doc list of stuff I got , makes it easy to search and fast this way you can keep track if you already own it . Notepad++ has Incremental search so it finds it right away. Also when you got to buy RL stuff in stores there is no tracking of what you already got and there are Hundred if not thousand of stores that offer the same Products, there they also can not track from one store of another if you already got it even if it is the same brand , were they doing it then it would be absolute control of Humanity LOL , but who knows the Chinese might have that feature next to the Observation cams .

EClark1894 posted at 12:01PM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406196

Chris Creek, over at Hivewire is currently making a version 2 of the Dawn and Dusk figures.

This.

I wonder if he just got sick of running a store and wanted to spend more time on the mesh. Running a business is pure drudgery (the reason DAZ ran so spectacularly back in the day is that Chris curated and led development of the products (read: Vicky and Mike), while Dan did the books and marketing - they worked amazingly well together). If that's the reason, I don't blame him at all.

I do wonder at the longevity of Dawn/Dusk though. Nobody in DS uses it that I'm aware of.

Thanks for the info, people. I'll get over there and take a look.

Buying physical goods is different. You use it up, or might want an extra, or can give duplicates to someone else. Not so with digital goods.

If nobody is using Dawn and Dusk in DS, maybe they can just drop DS support. I have serious doubts about building figures to work in both programs now. They've just become too different.

Penguinisto posted at 12:36PM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406212

EClark1894 posted at 12:01PM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406196

Chris Creek, over at Hivewire is currently making a version 2 of the Dawn and Dusk figures.

This.

I wonder if he just got sick of running a store and wanted to spend more time on the mesh. Running a business is pure drudgery (the reason DAZ ran so spectacularly back in the day is that Chris curated and led development of the products (read: Vicky and Mike), while Dan did the books and marketing - they worked amazingly well together). If that's the reason, I don't blame him at all.

I do wonder at the longevity of Dawn/Dusk though. Nobody in DS uses it that I'm aware of.

You may not be aware of it, but they are. Check out the Hivewire forum. You'll often see their renders.

I do wonder at the longevity of Dawn/Dusk though. Nobody in >DS uses it that I'm aware of.

No one uses any third party Figures in DS ( possible exceptions being occasional sci fi mechs by PA's like DZfire)

IMHO trying to get a third party, non genesis human figure,adopted by the Daz studio user base, is a pointless excercise as Genesis 8 is the primary figure of the Daz eco system.?

Sixus-1 gave up on his stand alone monsters for DS years ago likely because people prefer Character morphs for the latest genesis figures for uninterrupted compatibilty with their existing clothing /content purchased from the Daz store.?

Unified Character ecosystems seems to be the successful model for getting skilled vendors on board in this hobbiest market.

(Former poser merchant Xurge3D, is a prolific Content seller in the Reallusion marketplace these days)

Hivewire appeared to be attempting this type of unified Character eco system when they stopped allowing venders to sell exclusively for figures other than Dawn & Dusk .

So now you have a situation where the Dawn & Dusk content will be exclusively at RMP competing directly with LF/LH for vendor support ?

Even Reallusion has moved to ONE set of uniform base figures that can share same clothing and skins which certainly made life easy for me when I migrated my content development from the Daz/Genesis eco system to the Iclone/CC3 base Avatars.?

Just to set the facts straight. Xurge3d is not a former Poser vendor. Their website is alive, has new products regularly and sells there exclusively in Poser format. They may have a separate store for reallusion, but they did not abandon Poser.

Let's be factually correct in our criticism or likes and dislikes.

Azath posted at 3:04PM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406208

I always keep a Txt doc list of stuff I got , makes it easy to search and fast this way you can keep track if you already own it .

That's why I have an Excel spreadsheet for every 3D store I've ever purchased items from over the past 20 years I've been working in 3D.

Penguinisto posted at 3:06PM Wed, 02 December 2020 - #4406212

I do wonder at the longevity of Dawn/Dusk though. Nobody in DS uses it that I'm aware of.

I guess you haven't spent much time on the HiveWire Forums, or gone through their Galleries. A good many of our members use Dawn, Dusk, Baby Luna, and the wonderful animals in DS. The products are always created for use in both Poser and DS, and I'm sure they will continue to be available for both software apps going forward.

I have been with HW since before they opened the store, supporting Dawn when she was their only figure back in 2013. If you know DAZ, then you probably know who Chris Creek is. Along with Dan Farr, Chris has founded the original "Digital Art Zone" (DAZ), which later got incorporated and became DAZ3D. If you really want to know why the HW store is closing now, we have to look back to see the context. Chris has left DAZ3D by claiming "it no longer does what it was created for". Once DAZ got incorporated, it was then ran by a board of directors - businessmen. Only later Chris understood this was a mistake, because he wanted a company that was ran by artists to serve artists.

That's how HW was born, which explains the friendly atmosphere everybody enjoy there. However, the whole company is made of only 4 people: Alisa, Chris, Lisa and Paul. They have accumulated a huge backlog of products that take time to complete because... there are only 4 people in the whole company. On top of that, they are also running a store, with banking systems for handling payments, a legal department to handle disputes, a web master to handle the store and forums site, and a marketing department to manage store advertisement and QAV. But, there are only 4 people there, usually wearing many hats during the day, and with a HUGE backlog of products in development that need to be finished. All this while standing tall against DAZ3D, who never took this lightly.

Needless to say, there are pros and cons for artists running a company. The pros is a friendly environment and productive interactions to create new products. HW has allowed me to actively participate on the design and specs for the upcoming Dawn 2.0 in their open forums - something we don't often see nowadays. However, the accumulated fatigue for wearing so many hats can take its toll over time. That's how RuntimeDNA was closed - they grew tired of wearing too many hats over time. Defending themselves against the DAZ3D corporation with such a tiny company was also a factor that took its toll.

To be fair, Renderosity had kept a friendly relationship with HW throughout they years, where HW figures (human and animals) were sold here, too. Even now that Rosity has acquired Poser, they still bundle HW figures with it - even more of them than SMS did in Poser 11. Assumptions that Rendo would have something to do with the HW store demise are unfounded. Conversely, DAZ3D has forbidden any HW contents to be sold at their store from the very beginning, also forbidding vendors from supporting HW in any shape or form. They have been openly hostile against HW from the very beginning, and that is more likely to have contributed for the HW store closing over time.

Therefore the end of RDNA and HW stores are somewhat similar - the owners got tired of wearing all the hats. That can wear you off over time. But perhaps it was a bit more severe with HW because of their large product creation backlog. Without the store, they will have more time to dedicate themselves to working on new contents. And believe me, if you saw the new Dawn 2.0, you will want that figure, so maybe this a change for the better. Consider I am a guy who will be loosing the store I had with HW for the last 7 years, so I am not saying this lightly. If they have to close the store to better serve the community with quality products, so be it.

Remember only the store is closing. HW will keep producing more contents under their brand here at Rosity, and the HW forums will keep running as usual. This is NOT the end of HW, like it was with CP and RDNA. It's just the store.

@Ken_1171 , really appreciate taking the time to explain things here so openly. Personally I'll be looking forward to continue to support the excellent artists (including your self) who sold at HW and hopefully most of them migrating over here.

DAZ3D has forbidden any HW contents to be sold at their store >from the very beginning, also forbidding vendors from supporting >HW in any shape or >form.

To be fair I would imagine that Daz PA's sign exclusivity agreements willingly as business people making choices about which Character eco system they feel will make them the most money.

This happens in every business where talent is contracted by a corporation the talent agrees to what is is forbidden in a legally binding contract

They have been openly hostile against HW from the very beginning, >and that is more likely to have contributed for >the HW store >closing over >time.

It is a competitive market space... call it "Hostility" or call it being fiercely competitive.?

Daz used to sell Iclone Pro in the Daz store and had a forum sticky thread on animating GENESIS Characters in Iclone via thier 3DXchange softwware.

But that was when the native Reallusion Avatars Looked like low poly pre-Alpha "Simms" Characters.?

The instant Reallusion introduced thier own Character creator software replete with realistic,Pretty girls and an optional Iray Engine/plugin, Daz immediately burned all bridges with Reallusion.?

And Reallusion partnered with Bondware to sell thier products here in the RMP.?

Business is.. business

In the end commercial content stores tend to shutter for financial reasons even if that means there was not enough income to hire more staff to share the work loadload .

Thank you @Rhia474. I am a newbie here, and it's good to know some people know me. ^____^

@wolf359 Like I said, DAZ3D was one factor, and there were many. I would agree that it was business as usual if I haven't seen what actually happened between DAZ and HW back in 2013-15. Since Chris is their former founder, DAZ took it personally. I was there and I saw everything in first hand, and it wasn't pretty. All I can say is that DAZ didn't play fair. There were a few punches under the belt. That's all I am willing to disclose here. I just don't want people to go thinking it was the "usual" kind of business competition. Chris and his crew are GOOD, honest and talented people, and they deserved better. They were BRAVE to stand against the giant, and I am glad it was just the store that went down, and that they are still in business. :)

qaz posted some images of Dawn 2. Impressive looking figure. F*** IClone.

@4403764

Penguinisto posted at 9:41AM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406212

I do wonder at the longevity of Dawn/Dusk though. Nobody in DS uses it that I'm aware of.

I do. (Now you are aware.) :P

wolf359 posted at 9:49AM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406218

No one uses any third party Figures in DS

I guess I am no one. :(

Thanks for explaining it, Ken. I'm really excited about Dawn 2 (and even more for Dusk, since I'm one of those rare Poserers who uses male figures more than female).

Some weird stuff did go down with DAZ and HW. Like that thing where they were going to sell the HW animals. It was announced, new renders were made so the HW logo wasn't on them...then suddenly, cancelled. That was bizarre, and definitely not business as usual.

@ghostship2 I have personally contributed to some of Dawn 2.0's features, thanks to HW's open dev forums. She is a HUGE improvement over the original Dawn, building over the accumulated 7 years experience. Mind you, the original Dawn design was not open to public participation because she was created before the HW store and forums were up online. However, many of the SR-1 and SR-2 features came from my personal suggestion.

Dawn 2 is not just an update - it's a whole new figure. She has:

• Redesigned topology with cleaner edge loops.
• Redesigned grouping, with more groups where needed, and less when it actually gets in the way, like the double upper torso and neck are gone. The head is now a single group with the jaw becoming a ghost bone. The feet will finally have a metatarsal bone to allow for more realistic posing. The chest will have 2 new pectoral bones for easy breast posing. There are more things about the grouping, I can't list them all here.
• New skeleton to go with the new grouping.
• This will be HW's very first figure to come with a facial rig - woohoo!
• The fingernails will be double-sided split geometry, so we can morph and texture them more easily.
• Reduced number of MAT zones, grouping together the skin areas that share the same textures. The original Dawn has 9 MAT zones just for skin, which were reduced down to only 4, making it quicker and easier to edit skin materials.
• The eyes will have tear lines in geometry for more realistic close-up shots.
• The giant lashes are gone! Dawn 2.0 will have only 1 set in normal size that can be morphed to larger if needed. That used to get in the way when creating face morphs.
• Default shape is more generic, less angular and recognizable! Better and easier starting point for creating character morphs!
• Smaller shoulders, thinner arms and smaller hands and feet for a more feminine look.
• Brand new UV layout.

It has everything I wished for! (^____^)/

As for DS users, remember the bulk of HW figures are animals, and I have seen them all over the DS galleries. For the record, all HW figures are first created in DS, and only then a Poser version is created. Therefore they don't make DS versions afterwards, it's the other way around. Remember the HW crew are all ex-DAZ people who wanted to keep supporting both sides after DAZ departed from the Poser market. :)

@randym77 I am VERY excited about Dawn 2.0 as well. With only 1 modeler/morpher (Chris) and 1 rigger (Paul), it's amazing how many awesome figures these guys have created so far. Dawn 2 was initially postponed for about a year while Paul was rigging the HW tiger, but now he has been working on Dawn 2 full time. Yay!

DAZ3D simply came out of the blue asking Chris to sell ALL of his animals at DAZ, but there was a catch:

1. Chris could NOT sell his own animals at HW.
2. Chris could NOT use his brand (Hivewire3D) on the animals. He would have to make it less recognizable in a short form, like "HW3D".

Sounds unfair, right? Well, he ended up accepting, but he was NOT happy about it. Meanwhile, at DAZ, their own vendors who also created animals were NOT happy about this deal, and started making pressure on DAZ to quit the deal, or they would quit instead. Things started to heat up. NOBODY was happy about that deal, for either sides. In the end DAZ gave up to internal pressure, and drop their own deal after HW had already accepted. In the official record, they blamed HW for complaining about the deal, as means to remove any responsibility from their side for making a deal that made everybody mad.

This was a rather weird case from any side you look at it. First, DAZ made claims HW figures were "unusable and unworkable" (their own words), and convinced customers not to support HW. Early on, DAZ had also claimed "HW wouldn't last even the first year" (their own words). And then, all of the sudden they want to sell the HW animals with an exclusivity deal, which contradicts everything they had previously claimed about HW figures. I remember DAZ even started to advertise the HW animals at their store front page for a short while, before they backed off from their own deal. If DAZ didn't back off, their own vendors who also made animals would revolt, and HW wasn't too happy about not being able to use their own brand on the animals. This was a crazy deal that couldn't last.

That was some of the weirdest things I have seen in a while.

wolf359 posted at 3:24PM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406218

IMHO trying to get a third party, non genesis human figure,adopted by the Daz studio user base, is a pointless excercise as Genesis 8 is the primary figure of the Daz eco system.?

That's not entirely true, as there are total workarounds to get the Genesis flexibility and yet still keep the 'character' of a 3rd-party figure...

(Yes, that's NearMe's head, on a Genesis 3 Female's body. It's drop-easy to do. I whipped it up to razz my stepdaughter over something.)

Anyway, speaking of which, Hivewire has a similar anime head-graft thingy that I really like as well.

Did not know they kept the DS fires burning over there, but it makes total sense. Just that you rarely see it in DS (outside of HW, naturally).

Ken_1171 posted at 3:41PM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406230

I have been with HW since before they opened the store, supporting Dawn when she was their only figure back in 2013. If you know DAZ, then you probably know who Chris Creek is. Along with Dan Farr, Chris has founded the original "Digital Art Zone" (DAZ), which later got incorporated and became DAZ3D. If you really want to know why the HW store is closing now, we have to look back to see the context. Chris has left DAZ3D by claiming "it no longer does what it was created for". Once DAZ got incorporated, it was then ran by a board of directors - businessmen. Only later Chris understood this was a mistake, because he wanted a company that was ran by artists to serve artists.

Makes sense... thank you for the update.

Very cute render, Penguinisto! Quite whimsical.

Penguinisto posted at 3:44PM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406346

Anyway, speaking of which, Hivewire has a similar anime head-graft thingy that I really like as well.

Did not know they kept the DS fires burning over there, but it makes total sense. Just that you rarely see it in DS (outside of HW, naturally).

Would that be one of my Universal heads? I have 2 at HW: the "Universal Anime Head", and the "Universal Chibi Head", where both come in native Poser and DS formats. :)

Another way to handle figures that are not meant for Poser is to make a morph for an existing Poser figure that looks like the figure you want. In this example, I have morphed DawnSE to look like Aiko6 in Poser.

I have the Poser versions of both those heads. I love them. It's a really good solution that lets you use the clothing you already have.

I think the splash screen for Poser 12 features V4 with a "pop top" head by a Rosity vendor.

Ken_1171 posted at 4:35PM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406353

Penguinisto posted at 3:44PM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406346

Anyway, speaking of which, Hivewire has a similar anime head-graft thingy that I really like as well.

Did not know they kept the DS fires burning over there, but it makes total sense. Just that you rarely see it in DS (outside of HW, naturally).

Would that be one of my Universal heads?

Yup - the Chibi head - cost like $12 or so. I wound up modifying the (pictured) NearMe head anyway, since I had a zillion morphs and hairs and such for it.

That's not entirely true, as there are total workarounds to get the Genesis flexibility and yet still keep the 'character' of a 3rd-party figure...

(Yes, that's NearMe's head, on a Genesis 3 Female's body. It's drop-easy to do. I whipped it up >to razz >my stepdaughter over >something.)

A fully functional genesis 3 female wearing a smart propped head prop does not meet any reasonable definition of a "third party figure" in Daz studio.?

Of course there are people using Dawn & dusk in daz studio and thier are excellent biped sci- fi mechs from DZfire

However a human figure as commercial product competing directly with the genesis figures and their HD morphs,Iray Materials,autofit etc is a fools gambit in Daz's little petty fiefedom.

They are desparately trying to convince users of the major 3DCC to use Genesis in Maya,Max Blender etc,however they have very little interest in having other figure makers import figures into Daz studio as evidenced by their broken FBX "importer"

Such third party figure would not foment daz store content sales which is why Daz demanded such exclusivity for those HW animals as described by Ken_1171

Another way to handle figures that are not meant for Poser is to make a morph for an existing Poser figure that looks like the figure you want. In this example, I have morphed >DawnSE to look >like Aiko6 in Poser.

That is exactly how Reallusion solved the"genesis issue" for Iclone /CC3

Shape projection.?

Here is "DawnSE"(AKA the CC3 base female) In CC3 pipeline, wearing one of my custom outfits modeled Blender, and Syyd Ravens"vanilla sky" skin and Aeon souls "Nova" Hair

All converted with one click of the CC3 "transformer" tool.

this "Dawn" can now use all of Iclone's body & facial animation tools ,skin gen system, etc or be exported to Maya, Blender,unity UE4, whatever.

If bondware could lease this technology from Reallusion it would likely put an end to this endless demand for genesis support from that highly vocal segment of the user base.?

@randym77 and @Penguinisto THANK YOU for using my contents and supporting me! :D

What wolf359 said is pretty much true - DAZ has been trying to get into the gaming market for many years now. That's the biggest market in the planet, moving more money every year than many other industries combined. They first incorporated Digimi's decimator and texture atlas plugins way back in DS3, when DS was still quite expensive. They then spent quite some money advertising DS as a way to create game characters on 3DCG magazines. They started a new company called "Morph3D" to use their contents to enter the real-time mobile avatar market, but that has fluked as well. They have partnered with Reallusion to bring DAZ figures into iClone, and sacrificed Genesis 3 and up to become game models, with low poly, simplified topology and simple-bone game engine rigging. They did everything they could, but I don't think the gaming industry will ever take them seriously. At least they tried.

However, when Reallusion released CC3 and the Transformer plugin, all of the sudden that had turn unnecessary for DAZ to turn Genesis into a game model, but it was already too late. Transformer does not use the figure's rigging or geometry, so even DawnSE can be converted into a game model just as well as Genesis 3 and 8, without having to sacrifice TriAx rigging, the figure topology, or geometry poly count. It was unfortunate for DAZ - a case of bad timing.

For the rest of us, I am not a fan of trying to bring Genesis into Poser because we don't get all the features. Genesis is best used in DS. My approach to this was making morphs that try to make Dawn look like the shape I need in Poser, and in most cases, that has worked for me. If more vendors decide to support Dawn 2.0 when she comes out, we might have all the variety we need. Even if they make it for DS only, it's still easy to port those to Poser. And when Rendo makes Poser unimesh-compliant, it will be FINALLY easier to move morphs back and forth between Poser and DS.

wolf359 posted at 7:51PM Thu, 03 December 2020 - #4406383

Another way to handle figures that are not meant for Poser is to make a morph for an existing Poser figure that looks like the figure you want. In this example, I have morphed >DawnSE to look >like Aiko6 in Poser.

That is exactly how Reallusion solved the"genesis issue" for Iclone /CC3

Shape projection.?

Here is "DawnSE"(AKA the CC3 base female) In CC3 pipeline, wearing one of my custom outfits modeled Blender, and Syyd Ravens"vanilla sky" skin and Aeon souls "Nova" Hair

All converted with one click of the CC3 "transformer" tool.

this "Dawn" can now use all of Iclone's body & facial animation tools ,skin gen system, etc or be exported to Maya, Blender,unity UE4, whatever.

If bondware could lease this technology from Reallusion it would likely put an end to this endless demand for genesis support from that highly vocal segment of the user base.?

And create a endless demand for Reallusion support. NO Thanks.

Reallusion actually tried to support Poser at first, making a profile for HW Dawn. I have talked to their devs in Taiwan, and asked for it. They managed to make Transformer profiles for V4 and M4, but failed to make one for Dawn, or any other weight mapped figure for Poser. The reason was kind of obvious - Poser was incapable of exporting unimesh geometry, so the original geometry never matches the exported FBX. Maybe they could try again when Rendo adds unimesh support, but until then, there is no way to make this work with CC3 Transformer.

In my case, Dawn and all other HW figures have an identical version in DS, so if I can make a DS version of the character I want in CC3, I can make it happen. However, being a Poser guy, most of my library content is Poser-only. Converting from Poser to DS is cumbersome. I can't wait for Poser to finally support unimesh, for THEN Reallusion will finally be able to add Transformer support to Poser. That will take time, so we have to be patient. But it's coming! :D

They then spent quite some money advertising DS as a way to create game characters on 3DCG magazines. They started a new company called "Morph3D" to use their contents to enter the real-time mobile avatar market, but that has fluked as well. They have partnered with Reallusion to bring DAZ figures into iClone, and sacrificed Genesis 3 and up to become game models, with low poly, simplified topology and simple-bone game engine rigging. They did everything they could, but I don't think the gaming industry will >ever take >them >seriously.

Well said Ken_1171!!?

And now Daz is virtually giving away those interactive game licenses, still refusing to accept the reality that Professional gaming studios Create thier own bespoke assets for each new title, out of entrenced pipeline habits, and will never adopt Daz studio /Genesis particularly as the Daz studio Data folder/content dependancy system is NOT scalable for large team projects with multiple artists needing to access the same assets on a centralized server.?

@ Eclarke, I am talking about Poser having its own internal Shape projection / texture remapping system to "copy" imported Daz Character morphs & textures onto a poser native base figure for those people who wish to do so.

You dont seem to have a problem with the Dynamic cloth being leased from the long defunct "Size8 software" company and other third party python scripts by private individuals who could ,at any moment, retire/Die taking their script support with them.

Or "superfly" being ported over from Blenders constantly evolving cycles and still lacking some shader nodes.

But adopting a figure morphing/texture remapping tech from Reallusion is unacceptable???

For the record I agree with Ken_1171 that Genesis is only truly Genesis, residing within Daz studio connected to its Data folder ?

However ,for those who insist on it, a one click shape projection system would be better than the ridiculously complex ,multi-step procedures people are enduring to get a crippled G8 into poser 12 right now .

Ken_1171 posted at 7:57AM Fri, 04 December 2020 - #4406384

@randym77 and @Penguinisto THANK YOU for using my contents and supporting me! :D

What wolf359 said is pretty much true - DAZ has been trying to get into the gaming market for many years now. That's the biggest market in the planet, moving more money every year than many other industries combined. They first incorporated Digimi's decimator and texture atlas plugins way back in DS3, when DS was still quite expensive. They then spent quite some money advertising DS as a way to create game characters on 3DCG magazines. They started a new company called "Morph3D" to use their contents to enter the real-time mobile avatar market, but that has fluked as well. They have partnered with Reallusion to bring DAZ figures into iClone, and sacrificed Genesis 3 and up to become game models, with low poly, simplified topology and simple-bone game engine rigging. They did everything they could, but I don't think the gaming industry will ever take them seriously. At least they tried.

A "change my mind" moment ahead:

This is because they missed the two biggest reasons why most CG/Gaming/Movie shops roll their own meshes (or pay $$$$! for a reputable meshmonger to make one for them, pay for (and provide you with) a model release if a certain shape or photographic skintex is involved, etc.): Intellectual Property and Creative Uniqueness (for lack of a better term).

Using pre-baked figures is fine for base-level commercial stuff like the animated 'guide' at the self-checkout stand or ATM. Generic stock figures that look like nobody in particular are practically required in courtroom animations. But... if you're trying to market a game that stands out, or make a movie that gets attention, the absolute last thing you want is for half the audience to recognize where it is that your figures came from, let alone be able to place them in some other studio's product. So, you make your own. From scratch. Smaller shops buy one from a reputable shop, yes, but it comes with exclusivity - and for the same reasons. Half of a video game (and at least 75% of a movie's) unique appeal is its visuals, and you definitely do not want to skimp out in this department.

Intellectual Property is a very ugly game in the creative world. Some would even call it the coin of the realm. Because of this, unless you have full chain-of-custody for your assets (that is, you can prove that you made them, or can reliably point to a vendor who has that proof), your work product is in jeopardy from the first hungry lawyer or struggling corporate entity to make even a tenuous-but-credible-enough connection to their stuff. Doubly so if the plaintiff relies on royalties to make a living. Even if you're in the right, the process is the punishment, and it's gonna cost you one way or the other. If you can provide a full chain-of-custody and irrefutable proof, it's enough to make the vultures go away. If you can't, then you're either writing a check in settlement, or you're paying for a lawyer and perhaps paying a judgement levied against you.

So, wait, that second half... why would that be an issue with DAZ (or Renderosity, or...?) We all know why: lax-as-hell copyright and trademark policy.

Not joking about this, BTW: A 20-second peek-see here shows me two very blatant trademark violations against FCA Automotive ("Jeep" is a registered trademark. "Liberty" as a model name is a registered trademark. The grille 7-slot count is trademarked and is a design patent.), and one against FOX Factory, Inc.

(It would've been a five-second peek, but the rendo search engine blows goats, so it took longer to return results.)

And, to be perfectly fair, I bet I can find issues at the DAZ store just as quickly.

The responses from either store are going to be the same - hide behind the DMCA, and " Caveat Emptor, bitches! "

Now, if you were a game or movie studio, would you touch either place with a 10-meter pole, knowing this? I already know my answer: F$#@k no!

For the rest of us, I am not a fan of trying to bring Genesis into Poser because we don't get all the features. Genesis is best used in DS.

Agreed, big-time. It's the same reason why, even though I really, really love what Erogenesis did, I won't use it - I got the freebie one to see what the hubbub was about, and it's totally broke in DS (obviously, since it was built to take advantage of Poser and Python.)

And when Rendo makes Poser unimesh-compliant, it will be FINALLY easier to move morphs back and forth between Poser and DS.

I've been banging that drum for years... literally. Good luck with that. :)

wolf359 posted at 8:37AM Fri, 04 December 2020 - #4406377

A fully functional genesis 3 female wearing a smart propped head prop does not meet any reasonable definition of a "third party figure" in Daz studio.?

That's why I wrote exactly what I did, eh?

They are desparately trying to convince users of the major 3DCC to use Genesis in Maya,Max Blender etc,however they have very little interest in having other figure makers import figures into Daz studio as evidenced by their broken FBX "importer"

To be honest, their problems are not technical in nature, though the exporter issues obviously don't help any. They (and Rendo!) have bigger problems to solve, as outlined above.

Such third party figure would not foment daz store content sales which is why Daz demanded such exclusivity for those HW animals as described by Ken_1171

As a (barely competent) prosumer, I don't have to care about that, as long as I can get my toys to work. It's when those toys stop working that I have to seek out another solution.

Edit/Update - I looked a bit deeper before closing the tab: that quick search also shows two trademark violations against KC HiLites, Inc, one product that violates trademark for MNA, Inc ("BF Goodrich"), and one that violates trademark for Toyo Tire USA, Inc.

WTF, Rendo?

Glad I'm not an IP lawyer... sheesh!

OK I think the conversation has run it's course on the Topic of the Hivewire Store Closing.