on the value of postwork ;). NOT to say that post is for everyone and that some folks just don't need it...Guitta being a case in point :). I don't NEED postwork either (yes, I really CAN do everything I want in Vue if I want to), but this is just to illustrate what postwork can do. Since I believe the finished ART is what I'm after and not the PROCESS, I find postwork to be very valuable. Here are two images, the first being the postworked finished piece and the second post in the thread being the original. Tell me what you think? BTW, the original was rendered in Vue 3.1 :) I'm on a sci-fi fantasy kick lately...a departure for me :). Laurie

Yes, this really IS the original ;). Laurie

Hey, you'll get no argument from ME, you know! If it weren't for post work; if I had to have totally Vue stuff in my own gallery, there'd be very little, and what would be left, I'd have to remove, since it's kinda boring. I keep it there as "ballast". :) Beautiful example, laurie...beautiful pic. Have the anti post work people been picking on you lately? ;)

Cool picture !!! I think that you could obtain something realy close to your final render with no postwork with Vue4...

Oh no Mike, no one's been bothering me. What DID make me create this comparrison was something that LarryF said in another thread. It wasn't derrogatory at all, but more of an apology...something about his postwork stemming from a lack of confidence :). I don't think postwork is a lack of confidence, but is more a further exploration :). Just wanted to illustrate that. Bop, I know I could come close, but I could never get in Vue what I got in the above pic with postwork. Especially since I'm only using Vue 3.1 and not 4 :). The contrast just is not there. Less contrast means less depth, at least to my eye :). Laurie

Oh, forgot to say too that I actually ENJOY postwork (I know, I'm mental). Also, I didn't try to get anything other than what I got from the original render. I wanted it rather plain just to see what it could become :). Laurie

I definately go for the 1st one since it appears to have more detail with the contrasts. Both excellent images :) Irene

I think your post work is excellent Laurie. Playing with an image after it has been created is awesome, if u can do it (which U can). For me in most cases, postwork to give the image the final touch is worse than going to the dentist. But if I had your skill I would be doing it as often as possible :D Care to loan me some of your skill? :D

I think those both are great, Laurie. One of the things I rully rully like about 3D work is that basically no piece of art is ever actually "finished". This was a conflict for me when I first started dabbling some years ago - Imagine on an Amiga 2000, now sleeping in the garage --along with Deluxe Paint. I found myself fascinated AND horrified with the post work possibilities. Got to be kind of a dawg chasing his tail I did - ha ha! That "lack of confidence" thing probably applies more to feeling as though I haven't achieved the "best look" I guess for any given work. Have to work that out but am sure glad that remark lead to this fascinating picture and informative thread.

You know, this could be a perfect setting for ERB's John Carter of Mars to run around in -- just throw in Tars Tarkas and Dejah Thoris. Just my thought. Or maybe even for a tale from Bradbury's Martian Chronicles. Looks good. Larry F

I'll use whatever it takes to reach the appearance I want in an image, on or off the 'puter. If I survive The Neverending House Renovation Project going on here, I plan to explore what can be achieved on and off the 'puter...letting paper and digital get all mixed up together. I like both of these, Laurie. They look to be the same scene at different times of the day. I tend to view stuff the way Larry described, enjoying all the various in-progress versions of stuff. Sometimes, it is hard to "just say no" and call an image finished! :)

I've been watching TechTV...hehehe. Laurie

LOL! Well now you have to show the changing seasons, too! :D

Yeah, the first one definitely rocks and believe me, if I knew better how to maneuver photoshop, I would post work my recent image since I am not thrilled with the lighting or look of it...

I love the sand Laurie....really well done

Laurie, personnally I prefer very, very much the original, but only because I like the light colors and the 3d looking of this image. I don't want to start again a polemical about postwork. I just wanted to say that I'm NOT AT ALL against postwork. I'm against calling an image a VUE picture when it is so much overworked that it becomes a bad advertising for Vue's real being and abilities and looks like any painting created in a paint program (thats not bad, but not Vue :-)). Mostly, in my opinion, important post work, especially in changing colors or adding "brushes", the image looses all 3D effect. Your original, if you have an attentive look to it, has a lot of depht and looks great. A part of the 3D effect got loosed in the overworked image and becomes completely flat with the "rain", too thick, too regular (Vue can do rain much better :-)) You would love Vue 4 with the possibility to create real stars and suns. :-)Guitta

I see what you mean Guitta :). As far as the one with the rain, I was just playing around...I was watching TechTV and there was a Photoshop guy on there doing rain...LOL. I also know that I would like Vue 4 because I beta tested it too just like you but haven't gotten it yet because of my own personal reasons. I only have to disagree with you on one thing. I think the postworked image has lots of depth. I don't think it looks flat at all :). But, different strokes for different folks, I guess :). That's what makes us all unique :). Laurie

I am not sure how many people here are 2d artist and that is where I come from. Just something I don't really talk much about bust I do draw and paint and...errr..I hate it :) I have been in the early days of Corel forum much the same time that photoshop in its prime. I started with Corel Draw and than into Paint (much for digital image editing stuff). Its a 'complex things itself till you know how and what the program can do for you. Also, not forgetting the use of those invaluable "Plugins" out there...they make your work easilier. As a 2D artist, I can say that "Post Work" is an art and skill itself whcih takes time to learn. Knowing what to do and where the lightings are coming from is one thing, but getting your 2D image to have your key subject look like 3D is a big deal thing. Anyway, what I want to say here is that, those 2d player out there never like 3D rendering program because they have always commented that things looks too clean and unrealistic till post work is done. For me, 3D has help much as a start off platform and not too bad a thing and have save me a lot of time and better 'accuracy' for lighting and camera view in perspective. But for an image to look as good as it should, I would go for whatever is out there and use it to make that image. be it Post Work or not, its depend on the final image that need to be done or for a customer request. I have to agree with Laurie that image with post work can have lots of depth if you want but have to be done right (check my two fish in the image done 3 years ago with Corel). Than again, there are people that like what their 3D rendering program produce and it command its own audience. In summary, do what you like best or do what a customer need from you. End of it all, its the "known how" of using your tools to achieve the vision that makes you a contented artist. Okay, enough..as you can tell I have too much time to spare.

I think you use whatever it takes to get the image you want. The end product is what matters, not how you did it. I find it hard to understand why some people, and there are some, think you should do all the work in one program. If you were putting a shelf up would you say you could only use a hammer? You would do a much better job if you used a drill and a screwdriver too. I did an image this week which had a room rendered in Ray Dream Studio, view through the window rendered in Vue, furniture rendered in Serif 3Dplus3, all put together in PSP 7 on layers, and cartoon characters and their conversation added on more layers in PSP. That seems perfectly valid to me. You use whatever does the bit you are doing best. And if postwork will improve a 3d image, go for it. I very rarely enter contests, though. Apart from the fact that I am not a contest level artist, they so often limit you to one program, and I find that very frustrating, when I know I could make this look better if I did a bit of it in another.

To deny the value of post work makes about as much sense as an artist saying you should use only a single brush or tool to create your painting. Ultimately, all the software is, are tools for artists to use to create their work. Tsign is right, post work requires artistic skill to utilize properly in its own right. To deny its value by the so called "purest" is silly beyond belief. Laurie is correct, it is the artwork itself that is important not the tools used to create it. An artist doing bronze casting must create graphic renditions, sculpt in clay, and finally understand the casting process itself. Without skill in all three areas, the end result is probably less the desired by the artist.

A piece of artwork should be judged by its value as art not what was used to create it. Do you invalidate a piece of art because the artist used commerical paints and not make them from scratch? Get real.

My only comment is that, using postwork must no be a goal, but a way of making what an artist has in mind. Yes, Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop are great tools that can create huge things, but we must really take care in using them. Being an art student, I agree with you, Zstrike, but with this formation, I learned to take care of easy effects... :-)