Thanks

caisson, thanks so much for this information.

This is really helpfull - thank you!

Wow, I had missed this thread ... so glad I checked back in!!

Here is a shader set up using PBDSF for a prop with a single material zone textured in Substance Painter (which I’ll abbreviate to SP from now on) using the Metal/Rough PBR workflow. The exported maps are: colour, metallic, roughness and normal. Render is made using a single infinite light at 100% intensity.

I was originally going to write up some quick info on the various maps, but it … expanded a bit. Apologies for the wall of text that follows ;)

The PBR Metal/Rough workflow deliberately simplifies some parts of the material creation process to make it easier, faster and more consistent. It’s worth keeping in mind that it was designed for realtime engines with all their constraints, and Superfly, being an offline render engine, has the huge advantage of time. This means that it is possible to build more complex shaders without this workflow, but I think that PBR Metal/Rough is a very useful tool and the underlying principles are worth getting to grips with.

I’ll discuss the maps in order of importance. First, the metallic map tells Poser which areas are metal and which are not - white pixels are metal and black pixels are not-metal. The importance of this distinction is that all metal areas will be set to 100% reflectance, and the reflections will be coloured by the colour map. Not-metal areas will have reflectance set to the specular value and the reflected light will have no colour i.e. be white. The specular value should be set to 0.5, which is 4% reflectance.

Specular in Superfly does not mean the same thing as Firefly. In Superfly it means base reflectance (sometimes called direct reflection or F0). In Firefly specular is a hack used to simulate/fake reflected highlights as real raytraced reflections, especially blurred reflections, are extremely slow to render. As Superfly is much faster it uses raytraced reflections on everything all the time. Specular maps should only be used in Superfly if the effect they will have on reflectance values are properly understood. Simple values are all that are needed here - the detail and definition in the appearance of reflected light i.e. highlights is carried in the roughness map.

On the PBSDF node the specular value can be set from 0-2, which maps to 0-16%. Setting it to 0.5 equals 4% base reflectance, and in the Metal/Rough workflow all not-metal surfaces are set to this value as it is a good average (most surfaces range between 2-8%, with gemstones an outlier at up to 16%).

(In SP, and any other application that understands the Metal/Rough workflow, when a metal map is created this is what the shader is set to automatically - to get direct control of reflectance values a different workflow, Spec/Gloss, which creates a different set of maps, would be used.)

Next up is the normal map.

A normal map will do the same thing as a bump map - give the appearance of more detail by affecting the lighting but without altering the geometry of the mesh - but is created in a very different way. This is the most important thing about normal maps: they are not texture maps, they are surface normal data that has been encoded into pixels. This matters and can make them harder to create, unlike bump maps that can be painted by hand (unless you’re using an app like SP to create normal maps). It also makes them less flexible after they have been created, in that it would be difficult alter their values by using math nodes as can be done relatively easily with bump maps.

There are different kinds of normal map, and the ones that I am concerned with here are tangent space maps as exported by SP (as opposed to object or world space maps). Within SP the default setting is to use DirectX normal maps – I always change this to OpenGL. (Poser can use either but up and down are reversed depending on which is used, and I’m used to using OpenGL).

It is also worth being aware of tangent basis. This is only relevant when a normal map is decoded (i.e. rendered) by an engine that uses a different tangent basis to the engine that encoded the data. Most applications use MikkT (also called mikkspace), but not all. SP and Superfly do, but the Poser Preview and Firefly use their own tangent basis. This means that normal maps could give unexpected or wrong results in those engines.

It’s also worth noting that Poser will not read 16 bit normal maps, so I always set the SP exporter to 8 bit PNG. It is possible to use JPG, but it is a lossy format so compression artefacts could potentially result in shading errors, so PNG is safer (though the file sizes are larger). Depends on the end use – a hard surface model would look bad with shader errors, so I’d go with PNG, but with a detailed terrain the difference might not be noticeable.

Lastly, when using a normal map with Cycles nodes like the Principled BSDF it’s essential to use a NormalMap node (found in the Cycles – Vector submenu) to tell the shader exactly what kind of map is being used, otherwise Superfly will not understand how to render the map. This is not the case with the Physical Surface root, which expects a tangent space normal, so this step isn’t needed.

TL;DR – A normal map is computer code that only happens to look like a texture map. Use normal maps in Superfly if you understand them and have a tool that can make them correctly. For maximum compatibility and flexibility consider using bump maps instead.

So now to roughness. The roughness map describes how smooth or not the surface is in extreme close up, and this has a huge effect on the appearance of the reflected light. Using PBR Metal/Rough, a puddle of water and a dry leaf will have the exact same reflectance – the specular will be set to 0.5, or 4%. The reason they will look completely different is down to the roughness. Water is very smooth, so the grayscale roughness map will be be almost black, and the surface will render with sharp clear reflections while the dry leaf will be very rough, the values will be approaching white and the surface will render with reflected light so soft and blurred it may not seem to affect it at all.

While the values for base reflection are kept simple, the roughness map can be full of detail – scratches, fingerprints, smudges, pores, chips and blemishes of all kinds can sell the illusion of reality here. Any detail that is too small for the bump or normal map should be here.

Lastly, the colour map. Not a lot to say. Extremes of light and dark should be avoided. Lighting detail should be avoided, so it’s worth noting that the shader in SP makes use of AO (ambient occlusion), and that this can be baked into the exported maps - it may be advisable to disable the AO in SP before exporting maps.

However.

There is a way of adding AO and other maps for micro-occlusion in a controllable way with Cycles nodes, which could help bring out more detail and sharpness in a colour map. The Mix node in the Colour section of the Cycles nodes will allow mixing two colour inputs (the amount of mixing controlled by the Fac parameter) with blend types that anyone who has used layer blend modes in an image editor will recognise – like darken, screen, soft light, multiply, add etc. In the screen below I’ve added an AO map and am blending that with the colour map using overlay. Using a curvature map would probably be more appropriate for overlay; AO should really be blended with multiply.

Just another tool that is nice to have inside Poser to allow more control over a material - the Mix node has a lot of potential.

And something completely different - glass. Same prop, no maps, same lighting and render settings. I've deleted all the maps and set Transmission to 1, IOR to 1.5 and the colour to white.

Now changing the IOR to 2 and giving it a blue-ish colour tint.

What I want is to get a more crystal look, something with density to it. Roughness will only affect the surface highlights, so I want to activate Transmission Roughness. This setting will only work when the Distribution method is changed from the default Multiscatter to GGX. If I activate it and set it to 0.5 I now get this.

Wow! Thank you this is so helpful!

Keep the lessons coming sensei caisson, and of course, arigato gosaimasu!

Aha, found it.

Attempting gemstones using the Principled BSDF ...

The coloured stones above use this setup:

Gemstones have a base reflectance of 16%, so Specular is set to 2 and I set Transmission to 1. I've played around with varying the colour, roughness and IOR (there are many examples online, here is one). I also tried adding a little Transmission Roughness to a couple of stones - to enable that the Distribution must be changed to GGX instead of the default Multiscatter GGX.

The mesh is a primitive from Lightwave, there is a single infinite light and I've used a jpg panoramic sky plus simple reflective surface for the Ground.

The clear stones in the render use the shader below, which I attempted to duplicate by following this example.

An extremely good and important contribution to the understanding of Cycles materials and in particular the Principled BSDF node.
Thank you for this contribution.

Bumping this thread back into visibility....

Presently, we don't have any way of adjusting emission control on the PrincipleBsdf node but I came across a Blender trick that works very well in P12.  By connecting a Color mix node to the emission input on the PrincipleBsdf node, setting it to multiply, and connecting a Value node to its Color2 input you create an effective way of controlling emission intensity.  Plug a color or a map to the Color1 input.

You can also use these nodes in Bastep's Background Controller to control HDRI illumination intensity rather than adjusting the Gamma value.  I have found that using Gamma to intensify the HDR results in fireflies in the render; this arrangement eliminates that.

Interesting thread. Thanks forsharing.

Fantastic! Thank you @hborre

I've been curious about this side of rendering in Poser but it seems quite daunting until I see the designated Principled BSDF node then it makes more sense but my main question for now is this compatible with Firefly or just Superfly?  

@RAMWorks just Superfly

Ah, OK.  Thanks so much Ghosty!  

I have an old set "The Study" from DAZ.  It was in my Poser 4 runtime.  I had to rescale all the elements to 60% (In case anyone else wants to use it in newer Posers) Now I'm retexturing it.  I'm working on the cabinet first since most of the textures are wooden cabinetry and walls.  The original setup has only a texture map plugged into the difuse and specular plug-ins in the PoserSurface root node ... I have the Cycles root node with the PrincipledBsdf  I've plugged the texture map into color and subsurface color.  Nice ... but what I would like to know is what is the optimal settings for the polish/shine for a wooden surface.  There are so many options that so far I have it too shiny and don't want "shine" it with the wrong setting.  Suggestions?

This is the set up I have, as you can see too high of a gloss.  Plus I don't know which gloss to use. 

What the ideal shine would be for wood can vary depending on what real-life wood finish you're looking for. There are numerous types of shine and finishes for wood. Some of the basics are varnishes, waxes, and oils. (there's a lot more than that but that gets technical.) There are glossy (think those fancy grand pianos), semi-glossy (fancier furniture and wood trim might have this) satin (probably most common things) You'll want to adjust the roughness and specular to get the right settings, but without knowing the look you're going for it's hard to say what numbers to use.

Also, many finishes have a yellow tint to them which give the wood a rich warm look to it. That doesn't seem to be an issue in the image you posted, but if it starts to look desaturated then you might need to make some adjustments.

Ah, ok.  I thought maybe Sheen or clearcoat would be my more realistic choices.  But this does let me know it's more complicated than that and my best judgement is my best choice.  Thank you. 

Do not use Subsurface color as part of your setup, that channel is associated with subsurface scattering, and if you drive the subsurface scale too high your floor will glow.  It is wood paneling, you do not anticipate any translucency through it.  It is best to omit it entirely.  The Clearcoat/Clearcoat Roughness channels would be the most practical for wood; although Metallic gives you some tremendous reflective shine, I disagree with using it at high values.  If you want to add a yellowish tint finish to the wood, I suggest using the Poser native HSV2 node that has the color chip accessible for tinting.  Show us a render.

Oddly enough ... I used the Substance color because when I didn't the texture was washed out.  Not sure why,.

That's an unusual behavior if the texture was properly made.   Try placing an HSV Node between the texture node and the PrincipledBdsf node and modulate the settings.  The value channel controls the brightness of the map.  Reduce the Secular value of the PrincipleBdsf node just in case it is affecting the brightness.  Unfortunately, I don't have that particular model to play with on my end.

@Boni: I actually do have the model in my archive, never installed.  Doing a quick overview of the Raytrace Preview, I found that the Specular value must be set to zero so that you don't get that washed-out effect in the render.  

With some modifications, this is what I rendered with Superfly P12.

If you like the results, copy the shader and build on it.  In this render, I replaced all the lights with one Area Light, scaled to 1000% and intensity to 500%.  I usually use Blackbody lighting for all my Superfly renders, in this particular case, the light temperature was set to 5500 degrees Kelvin.

I don't really like the way clear coat works/looks so if I want a top-coat on something I use a second layer. I think sheen is more for cloth. I'd set sheen at 0, clear coat at 0 and roughness at .3.

the table, lamp and walls are using my free shader (rendered in P11) but it's basically the same as the PBSDF node. 

Not being as technical as you all, here's my 2 cents: I prefer to add a sheen effect using a second layer as I have the *feeling* that the sheen given by the PrincipledBSDF node is given at the cost of the resulting diffuse color, whereas a second layer, for the sheen, adds the sheen while keeping the color intact.

This may not be a technically correct response, that's the result of my experiments with human skin.

This is great! I lost all my settings yesterday due to a power outage .... Will adjust on Monday.

I'm assuming that the PrincipledBsdf node is only in Poser 12 unless I've overlooked where it is in the add node fly out menus in Poser 11.  

Also one of the very off putting issues with Cycles, for me, is there is no instant preview so you have do allot of test renders to correct settings.  Again, unless I'm missing something and I very well could be.   I do have Poser 12 but the no instant preview confounds me and annoys me.  

I'm assuming that the PrincipledBsdf node is only in Poser 12 unless I've overlooked where it is in the add node fly out menus in Poser 11.  

Also one of the very off putting issues with Cycles, for me, is there is no instant preview so you have do allot of test renders to correct settings.  Again, unless I'm missing something and I very well could be.   I do have Poser 12 but the no instant preview confounds me and annoys me.  

ATM, the best you can use is the Raytrace Viewer that can be set for auto if you wish.  I find that annoying when used in the Material Room so I would suggest leaving that feature off.  It does have a refresh button and, as I mentioned, is very convenient in the Material Room.  Just have your render settings at default and don't attempt to preview with a final render setting.  It will completely bog down your app.

As for the PrincipledBsdf node, that is only found in P12.  I have been using it exclusively for Superfly Cycles materials and renders, it's much more robust than the PhysicalSurface node and you can connect more than one to Mix Closure nodes for more elaborate materials.

Yea, I agree.  Allot more robust but I'll have to wait for this Eevee Preview option before diving back in!  

Just use the Raytrace Preview in the meantime, it's fairly close to accurate.  I have been creating elaborate skin shaders with a textured base and that preview feature has been indispensable.  Unfortunately, you can't resize the panel.

I've done the set for "The Study" I used  your suggestions ... but, it looks like painted wood rather than rich wooden elements.  Any suggestions?

@boni can you post your mat settup for the wood. Also has a lot to do with your lighting. A room like this would not have a single ugly white light bulb near the ceiling. that is more like a gym or warehouse light set up.

Good point on the lighting.  This is my main shader.  

Unfortunately, this set lacks other major texture maps to give it depth and detail.  Everything needs to be faked to make it presentable.  I agree with Ghostship2, the lighting is too stark for this type of room.  I don't remember if lights were included, they would have defined the atmosphere in the surrounding space.  My inclination would be to generate new specular and bump/normal maps.  Maybe use an area light as the primary source of illumination.

glossy or semi-gloss wood doesnt really need a clear coat. Clear coat has it's own normals and roughness. It will create a second specular/reflection on your object and bork the surface. So: turn off clear coat, set main roughness to .4 and adjust the strength of you normal map node till it looks right.

this one uses PBSDF on just about everything, also my shaders which use it too. Only mesh lights on this one.

@boni you have to think of where the lights would be in your scene. If the scene obj does not include lamps/wall lights/ceiling lights then you have to either add those into the scene and make them glow appropriately OR you have to have lights or meshes out of camera that cast light that would be believable for the room.